Before anything, I'll admit I'm extremely biased against this card because anyone running blue in my playgroup runs it, and I've had situations in the past where myself and few other players have built up a solid boardstate only for a single player to undo everything with the overloaded version.
Under RC Criteria:
-Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly: Nope. Although it may give a pseudo mana advantage in EDH as many people run non-land mana ramps (artifacts, creatures), but ultimately does not produce mana on its own.
-Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander: Not really. It can bounce a commander along with everything else, but just that interaction doesn't really break the structure of the format.
-Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry: Nope. It's like a $4 card.
-Warps the Format Strategically: This one is kind of a toss-up. You can't really strategically plan around it in advance as it's an instant and not really interactive (you can counter it at best or copy it for parity). Even if you can anticipate it, there are no real 'answers' to having everything bounced back into your hand (You can hold key creatures in hand in anticipation of a boardwipe, you can bait out counters by playing a smaller bomb, but you can't really play around a mass bounce).
-Creates Undesirable Game/Game Situations: Obviously this is the biggest criteria that the card falls under. Similar to Coalition Victory, the card has the potential to "undo" the game events that occurred before card is played and gives heavy advantage to the caster (unlike other wipes/bounces that puts everyone at an equal footing (boardwipes, mass land destruction, evacuation-effects, etc..))
So just from looking at the RC criteria, I guess it doesn't really warrant a banning, but I wanted to see other people's arguments for and against the card (As I'm very aware of my bias against the card, I am more than open to changing my views on why it's not that bad after all).
Everybody loves mana. Mana lets you do stuff in this game, and with more mana, you can do more stuff. And to that point, this card represents one of the pinnacles of efficient ramping where a 1 drop investment allows you to get 2 mana that can be used right away.
We often see anecdotes brought up in games where a T1 Sol Ring is almost guaranteed a win. How true do you feel this statement is?
If a T1 Sol Ring contributes hugely to winning the game, are there any other cards that provide a huge advantage to the player if found in the opening hand? (Perhaps not T1 early, but a T2 or T3 Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora or a Necropotence)
A big component of a T1 Sol Ring is that it can use itself to fuel for even bigger ramp effects on T2 (T1: Land > Sol Ring, T2: Land > 4-drop ramp effect [Thran Dynamo, Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation]), often resulting in 6~7 mana to use by T3.
In a casual environment, do you feel that a 4~5 mana advantage (assuming the opponents only hit land drops) is enough for the Sol Ring player to win?
What about in a competitive environment?
Related to the previous point, what if the T1 Sol Ring is not used for any further ramping? Do you feel that a 2 mana advantage in a multiplayer game is enough to win? What if the opposition plays a 1-drop Mana Dork or a T2 2-drop mana rock? Is the 1 mana difference still enough to cause a significant difference?
Tooth and Nail. One of the best green game-enders in both casual and competitive scenes. Hotly debated in the community whether or not this card follows the philosophies of the banlist due to its ability to tutor and bring out two creatures in a singleton format. Many have argued that its big, flashy effects are just what EDH is all about.
Points of discussion (Just some ideas that have been brought up in the past regarding this card to consider. Please do not limit the discussion to just below points.)
People often point out that non-abusive use of this card fits the spirit of the format. Do you agree or disagree?
Should an investment of 9 mana into a single spell result in a game win? Why or why not?
What are some of the most common tutor targets that makes this card ban-worthy?
Are there any cards on the banlist this card can be compared to?
Are there any cards not on the banlist this card can be compared to? (To discuss the risk of a cascading ban)
So what do people think about this card? Should it be banned? Why or why not?
I think after all that's happened in the past few days, we need a rules subforum now more than ever. Focusing ALL the discussion on the banlist in a single thread has caused a lot of frustration and miscommunication on both sides (with a lot of scattered arguments on various cards and ideologies thrown about). I can see the subforum (and more specifically the SCD on banned cards and potentially bannable cards) working to spread out the heated debates to allow for more focused (and hopefully constructive) discussion on the banlist.
Some possible outcomes of this I hope to see:
1. There'll be an [SCD] for every card currently on the banlist. I think the less debated cards will mostly be left alone (i.e. - Power 9), and it'll result in a more focused discussion on the heated cards on the banlist.
2. [SCD]s for cards that people want to see banned. This category has the biggest potential of running out of control as there are TONs of cards that people want to see on the banlist (fast mana cards, abusive wins, lock-out feelbads), but even still, it should relieve a lot of confusion and chaos of putting all discussions in a single thread.
3. This is a suggestion, but as we'll potentially have [SCD]s to actually discuss cards for the banlist, instead of simply moving the current banlist discussion to the new forum, could you create a new official thread to discuss the philosophy of the banlist? It is obviously a very heated topic that is currently being discussed, but I believe if that if people are given the chance to start over on a focused discussion (without constantly throwing in card discussions inbetween), it might provide for a better environment for a constructive discussion. Perhaps even considering moving/combining the thread on Casual vs. Competitive as well.
Hi, just a few questions to understand the philosophy of the format:
1. What is your opinion of certain cards that basically ignore all previous events of the game and win on the spot? This might be a poor question as I can only think of Coalition Victory at the moment.
2. I noticed that you've switched out the bans between Grindstone and Painter's Servant. How do you feel about "colors-matter" cards that may potentially be degenerate combo with the Servant? (Key Example being Iona, Shield of Emeria)
3. What is your opinion about Tooth and Nail? That is often a card that comes up in banlist discussion as a card that may potentially end the game then and there. Especially with the exclusion of Painter's Servant from the banlist, how do you feel about the potential to tutor for a TnT, then follow-up by tutoring the multitude of 2 creature infinite combos/lock-out combos?
It looks like you've put in a lot of work into this, and I am excited to see how this develops.
Cyclonic Rift
What are people's thoughts on this card?
Before anything, I'll admit I'm extremely biased against this card because anyone running blue in my playgroup runs it, and I've had situations in the past where myself and few other players have built up a solid boardstate only for a single player to undo everything with the overloaded version.
Under RC Criteria:
-Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly: Nope. Although it may give a pseudo mana advantage in EDH as many people run non-land mana ramps (artifacts, creatures), but ultimately does not produce mana on its own.
-Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander: Not really. It can bounce a commander along with everything else, but just that interaction doesn't really break the structure of the format.
-Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry: Nope. It's like a $4 card.
-Warps the Format Strategically: This one is kind of a toss-up. You can't really strategically plan around it in advance as it's an instant and not really interactive (you can counter it at best or copy it for parity). Even if you can anticipate it, there are no real 'answers' to having everything bounced back into your hand (You can hold key creatures in hand in anticipation of a boardwipe, you can bait out counters by playing a smaller bomb, but you can't really play around a mass bounce).
-Creates Undesirable Game/Game Situations: Obviously this is the biggest criteria that the card falls under. Similar to Coalition Victory, the card has the potential to "undo" the game events that occurred before card is played and gives heavy advantage to the caster (unlike other wipes/bounces that puts everyone at an equal footing (boardwipes, mass land destruction, evacuation-effects, etc..))
So just from looking at the RC criteria, I guess it doesn't really warrant a banning, but I wanted to see other people's arguments for and against the card (As I'm very aware of my bias against the card, I am more than open to changing my views on why it's not that bad after all).
We often see anecdotes brought up in games where a T1 Sol Ring is almost guaranteed a win. How true do you feel this statement is?
If a T1 Sol Ring contributes hugely to winning the game, are there any other cards that provide a huge advantage to the player if found in the opening hand? (Perhaps not T1 early, but a T2 or T3 Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora or a Necropotence)
A big component of a T1 Sol Ring is that it can use itself to fuel for even bigger ramp effects on T2 (T1: Land > Sol Ring, T2: Land > 4-drop ramp effect [Thran Dynamo, Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation]), often resulting in 6~7 mana to use by T3.
- In a casual environment, do you feel that a 4~5 mana advantage (assuming the opponents only hit land drops) is enough for the Sol Ring player to win?
- What about in a competitive environment?
Related to the previous point, what if the T1 Sol Ring is not used for any further ramping? Do you feel that a 2 mana advantage in a multiplayer game is enough to win? What if the opposition plays a 1-drop Mana Dork or a T2 2-drop mana rock? Is the 1 mana difference still enough to cause a significant difference?Tooth and Nail. One of the best green game-enders in both casual and competitive scenes. Hotly debated in the community whether or not this card follows the philosophies of the banlist due to its ability to tutor and bring out two creatures in a singleton format. Many have argued that its big, flashy effects are just what EDH is all about.
Points of discussion
(Just some ideas that have been brought up in the past regarding this card to consider. Please do not limit the discussion to just below points.)
- People often point out that non-abusive use of this card fits the spirit of the format. Do you agree or disagree?
- Should an investment of 9 mana into a single spell result in a game win? Why or why not?
- What are some of the most common tutor targets that makes this card ban-worthy?
- Are there any cards on the banlist this card can be compared to?
- Are there any cards not on the banlist this card can be compared to? (To discuss the risk of a cascading ban)
So what do people think about this card? Should it be banned? Why or why not?Some possible outcomes of this I hope to see:
1. There'll be an [SCD] for every card currently on the banlist. I think the less debated cards will mostly be left alone (i.e. - Power 9), and it'll result in a more focused discussion on the heated cards on the banlist.
2. [SCD]s for cards that people want to see banned. This category has the biggest potential of running out of control as there are TONs of cards that people want to see on the banlist (fast mana cards, abusive wins, lock-out feelbads), but even still, it should relieve a lot of confusion and chaos of putting all discussions in a single thread.
3. This is a suggestion, but as we'll potentially have [SCD]s to actually discuss cards for the banlist, instead of simply moving the current banlist discussion to the new forum, could you create a new official thread to discuss the philosophy of the banlist? It is obviously a very heated topic that is currently being discussed, but I believe if that if people are given the chance to start over on a focused discussion (without constantly throwing in card discussions inbetween), it might provide for a better environment for a constructive discussion. Perhaps even considering moving/combining the thread on Casual vs. Competitive as well.
1. What is your opinion of certain cards that basically ignore all previous events of the game and win on the spot? This might be a poor question as I can only think of Coalition Victory at the moment.
2. I noticed that you've switched out the bans between Grindstone and Painter's Servant. How do you feel about "colors-matter" cards that may potentially be degenerate combo with the Servant? (Key Example being Iona, Shield of Emeria)
3. What is your opinion about Tooth and Nail? That is often a card that comes up in banlist discussion as a card that may potentially end the game then and there. Especially with the exclusion of Painter's Servant from the banlist, how do you feel about the potential to tutor for a TnT, then follow-up by tutoring the multitude of 2 creature infinite combos/lock-out combos?
It looks like you've put in a lot of work into this, and I am excited to see how this develops.