SB:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Lightning Axe
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Leyline of the Void
1 The Gitrog Monster
R1: 0-2 vs Bant Spirits (had T2 combo on the play, then got repaired)
R2: 2-0 vs 4c Geist
R3: 2-0 vs Humans
R4: 2-0 vs Tribal Flames Zoo
R5: 2-1 vs Mardu Pyromancer
R6: ID
QF: 0-2 vs Titanshift (best matchup in T8, so this stung a bit)
Noose Constrictors were intended as solid blockers vs aggro (especially Spirits), discard outlets that let you kill the same turn without resorting to Emrakul loops that mess up your dredge, and threats that can sometimes win games vs RIP/Leyline. They were fine at all of that but I'm not convinced the deck wants them.
The basic shell felt very strong; after years of messing around with various Griselbrand decks, the Brownscale synergy was a breath of fresh air. This deck gains more than almost any other from Guilds between Secrets of the Mausoleum and Assassin's Trophy, so I'm excited to explore it further!
Of course, completely outdated, but as a base it would be interesting to go from it.
Greetings,
Kathal
I've been meaning to play the ooze version (and the fury version for the matter) as it's getting a bit stale playing grishoalbrand all the time. Do you have an updated list I can fool around with:)?
Looking at the list, I kind of get the gist of the deck but still don't quite understand. Oooze lets us dodge.. just cage right? Looks like the idea is to bin borb+griselbrand, play an ooze and combo (the combo seems to be chaining soul spikes which is the only life gain engine that I see). Other targeted GY hate like scooze, surgical, Leyline/RIP still seems to be good vs this version, unless you sequence a certain way (playing ooze first, then binning griselbrand/borb).
That Magic Online list seems confused, to say the least. I suspect it’s riding on the strength of a lot of the individual cards (Thopter/Sword, Liliana, Bridge, Damnation) and drawing them at the right times over those events as some of the choices are weird (Tezz AoB with so few artifacts and ways to defend it, Bridge with a very high curve, Brutality in a deck with such a high curve that needs lots of cards, a low land count to support that curve with Temples that enter tapped, more grindy cards on top of Thopter-Sword which is already the best grindy plan). The fact that it’s doing well should give us confidence that the basic shell is viable though.
I tested Tezz a lot for the RPTQ, lost my T8 win-and-in with this:
As Molz7 notes, the deck has a lot of different angles. That flexibility is a great asset but makes it much harder to build the deck (on both the macro- and micro-level). I knew I wanted access to the full 8 discard spells, more planeswalkers for post-SB games, Damnation, Whir targets… but fitting all of that is tough. I moved the Witchbane Orb to the SB as I figured it was only strictly necessary against Titanshift… which I naturally faced in back-to-back rounds to start the event. Those are the kind of choices you have to make, though. I found I often wanted to ‘transform’ against DS and the fair decks, replacing the ramp and any useless Whir targets or removal with more discard and planeswalkers; you have the best endgame of any fair deck with Thopter-Sword and both Tezzerets are excellent in those games, so you’re happy to trade off cards and make sure you don’t lose early. That plan worked so well that I want to explore a list with that as the primary plan, cutting the ramp but with enough cheap interactive artifacts to maintain Whir. OTOH, ramp into Tezzeret the Seeker is appealing enough that a list with that as its focus is worth trying too. The combo list with KCI is intruging too; that deck is incredibly powerful but suffers against the fair decks where Thopter-Sword shines. Instead of messing around with complicated loops, you can just assemble Thopter-Sword and make the deck more stable as well as more consistent post-SB.
Search perfectly embodies a recurring issue with this deck: people try to cram it full of cute grindy cards when this is already one of the best decks in the format in the mid-late game.
For the people who have cut Darksteel Citadel altogether: do you miss the lines it opens up with Tezz? I've liked Inventors' Fair and Academy Ruins so far but I wonder if they shouldn't just be more Citadels if I'm using those slots on non-blue lands.
It won't beat Rhonas if they also have a Rec Sage/Pridemage/Revoker etc. in their deck. I definitely like KCI more than Time Sieve; having to spend a turn making Thopters before you can active Sieve the first time often renders it too slow in the matchups it's intended for.
It's good to see Zac posting here and having fun/success with the deck. I'm curious whether the green splash is worth it; I think Decay/Pulse are very useful tools beyond how necessary they are vs Stony Silence but it does ugly things to the manabase. Fetches/shocks are dodgy in this deck as basic Swamp is very awkward with Whir and the life loss is a problem if you have a clunky draw. They do improve Bauble and Push though. I'll have to try it again; these problems really jumped out at me before because I was playing a slower version of the deck where the life loss etc. mattered more. The alternative manabase probably wants Spire anyway? 4 Shores are a must, then you get to play River of Tears and a handful of utility lands, but it's hard to fill it out after that without too many basics.
I think the deck still has a lot of potential and I hope I can justify playing it at the RPTQ or GP Madrid.
Hey all, I won a PPTQ with a rather unconventional Amulet list at the weekend. I wrote about it here and am happy to discuss it or answer any questions!
Super interesting, thanks for the link @Reedy26. Dominic Harvey ran no MD discard effects (not even Brutality)! Not sure I'd want to play in my meta without MD brutality... Also, he's deep into the combo on 4 foundry, 3 sword; I wonder what his thinking is on those numbers. I guess if you're not MDing Brutality, then the foundry is more useful. Tolaria West looks a lot better if you're MDing EngEx and Chalice.
Can someone explain the utility of the snow-covered basics (... just idiosyncratic)?
Snow basics were because I had to finish my list and those were closest to hand! You can also bluff having Gifts Ungiven in your deck if you have both regular and snow, but that's incredibly niche.
4 Foundry/3 Sword because that combo is what makes the deck work and it's your primary plan in a lot of matchups. In particular, against Death's Shadow of all stripes I just want to have consistent access to the combo to fight through discard.
Brutality has been very hit-or-miss for me. It's the best card against Burn, solid against Collected Company decks, a bad Duress against combo/control, and weak against everything else. It exemplifies issues the deck already had (having a lot of situational cards and being clunky when it's bad). It can be useful for emptying your hand for Bridge but that's often the best you can say about it.
I tweaked the list a bit for the tournament Magpie wrote about:
I went 5-3-1 but was on zero sleep and playing terribly; I draw a very bizarre/complicated match against Abzan that was a win with decent play. Notably, I'm now 4-1 against Jund Shadow over the two events and I think the matchup is solid.
Notes:
- I soured on Bauble and I'm not sure where I stand on it moving ahead. As above, this deck's draws are often polarized (cards are either very good/bad based on the matchup) so the value of a random card is hard to gauge. I found you often need it to make Opal active but this forces you to keep Bauble in play past the point when you want to cash it in. The synergy with Tezz is cute and I love having extra 0-mana artifacts for Whir/Bridge, but idk.
- On that note, I'm not happy with Opal either. Opal makes your best draws better but often does little to nothing in your average or bad draws. Against decks with discard or artifact hate it's easy for them to make you 'mulligan' by stranding an Opal; I realized this weekend I should board them out against Shadow and similar decks. In particular, it was hard to make Opal help me jump ahead to T3 Tezz as often as I would like. It's obviously an amazing card and belongs in some capacity but I could see any of 1-4 being 'correct' depending on your configuration; I'm not sure if I want to double down on the turbo aspect of the deck or dial it back completely. Talisman was good and more reliable T3 Tezz/Damnation is very appealing.
- The green splash for Abrupt Decay would require overhauling the manabase but may well be worth it; Stony Silence is one of the few ways you can lose to the decks that play it and it's one of the best cards you can have against the GBx Shadow decks (Go for the Throat is nice but Liliana is often the big problem). Culling Scales was the only thing I could find that you can Whir for to beat Stony Silence but it's so bad :(.
- Whir is so, so good.
- Spreading Seas buys time against Tron but also does great work against Shadow and Burn while being fine against random other decks.
Hey all, wanted to share the Goryo's Vengeance/Necrotic Ooze list I've had some success with recently: 7-0(-2) at a competitive cash tournament, and good finishes in some smaller events. I'd recommend it as a starting point for anyone going to the GPs or just playing Modern in general.
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
1 Noxious Revival
4 Griselbrand
1 Borborygmos Enraged
2 Phantasmagorian
2 Progenitus
4 Golgari Brownscale
3 Stinkweed Imp
3 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Noose Constrictor
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 of each RGB shock
1 of each RGB basic
4 BR fetch
3 BG fetch
2 RG fetch
2 Dakmor Salvage
SB:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Lightning Axe
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Leyline of the Void
1 The Gitrog Monster
R1: 0-2 vs Bant Spirits (had T2 combo on the play, then got repaired)
R2: 2-0 vs 4c Geist
R3: 2-0 vs Humans
R4: 2-0 vs Tribal Flames Zoo
R5: 2-1 vs Mardu Pyromancer
R6: ID
QF: 0-2 vs Titanshift (best matchup in T8, so this stung a bit)
Noose Constrictors were intended as solid blockers vs aggro (especially Spirits), discard outlets that let you kill the same turn without resorting to Emrakul loops that mess up your dredge, and threats that can sometimes win games vs RIP/Leyline. They were fine at all of that but I'm not convinced the deck wants them.
The basic shell felt very strong; after years of messing around with various Griselbrand decks, the Brownscale synergy was a breath of fresh air. This deck gains more than almost any other from Guilds between Secrets of the Mausoleum and Assassin's Trophy, so I'm excited to explore it further!
Posted about it in here before but: http://riptidelab.com/necrotic-brews-the-goryos-vengeance-variety-hour/
I tested Tezz a lot for the RPTQ, lost my T8 win-and-in with this:
3 Sword of the Meek
3 Mishra’s Bauble
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Welding Jar
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Executioner’s Capsule
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pentad Prism
3 Mox Opal
4 Whir of Invention
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Fatal Push
1 Collective Brutality
4 Darkslick Shores
4 River of Tears
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Inventors’ Fair
1 Academy Ruins
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
2 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
As Molz7 notes, the deck has a lot of different angles. That flexibility is a great asset but makes it much harder to build the deck (on both the macro- and micro-level). I knew I wanted access to the full 8 discard spells, more planeswalkers for post-SB games, Damnation, Whir targets… but fitting all of that is tough. I moved the Witchbane Orb to the SB as I figured it was only strictly necessary against Titanshift… which I naturally faced in back-to-back rounds to start the event. Those are the kind of choices you have to make, though. I found I often wanted to ‘transform’ against DS and the fair decks, replacing the ramp and any useless Whir targets or removal with more discard and planeswalkers; you have the best endgame of any fair deck with Thopter-Sword and both Tezzerets are excellent in those games, so you’re happy to trade off cards and make sure you don’t lose early. That plan worked so well that I want to explore a list with that as the primary plan, cutting the ramp but with enough cheap interactive artifacts to maintain Whir. OTOH, ramp into Tezzeret the Seeker is appealing enough that a list with that as its focus is worth trying too. The combo list with KCI is intruging too; that deck is incredibly powerful but suffers against the fair decks where Thopter-Sword shines. Instead of messing around with complicated loops, you can just assemble Thopter-Sword and make the deck more stable as well as more consistent post-SB.
Lots of work left to do!
For the people who have cut Darksteel Citadel altogether: do you miss the lines it opens up with Tezz? I've liked Inventors' Fair and Academy Ruins so far but I wonder if they shouldn't just be more Citadels if I'm using those slots on non-blue lands.
It's good to see Zac posting here and having fun/success with the deck. I'm curious whether the green splash is worth it; I think Decay/Pulse are very useful tools beyond how necessary they are vs Stony Silence but it does ugly things to the manabase. Fetches/shocks are dodgy in this deck as basic Swamp is very awkward with Whir and the life loss is a problem if you have a clunky draw. They do improve Bauble and Push though. I'll have to try it again; these problems really jumped out at me before because I was playing a slower version of the deck where the life loss etc. mattered more. The alternative manabase probably wants Spire anyway? 4 Shores are a must, then you get to play River of Tears and a handful of utility lands, but it's hard to fill it out after that without too many basics.
I think the deck still has a lot of potential and I hope I can justify playing it at the RPTQ or GP Madrid.
4 Amulet of Vigor
3 Sakura-Tribe Scout
4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Coalition Relic
4 Through the Breach
4 Primeval Titan
4 Summoner’s Pact
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Worldspine Wurm
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Dismember
1 Pact of Negation
4 Simic Growth Chamber
4 Gruul Turf
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Boros Garrison
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Crumbling Vestige
1 Forest
1 Vesuva
1 Teetering Peaks
1 Endless Sands
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Khalni Garden
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Slayer’s Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
2 Tolaria West
1 Hornet Queen
1 Thragtusk
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pyroclasm
2 Dismember
1 Swan Song
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
Snow basics were because I had to finish my list and those were closest to hand! You can also bluff having Gifts Ungiven in your deck if you have both regular and snow, but that's incredibly niche.
4 Foundry/3 Sword because that combo is what makes the deck work and it's your primary plan in a lot of matchups. In particular, against Death's Shadow of all stripes I just want to have consistent access to the combo to fight through discard.
Brutality has been very hit-or-miss for me. It's the best card against Burn, solid against Collected Company decks, a bad Duress against combo/control, and weak against everything else. It exemplifies issues the deck already had (having a lot of situational cards and being clunky when it's bad). It can be useful for emptying your hand for Bridge but that's often the best you can say about it.
I tweaked the list a bit for the tournament Magpie wrote about:
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Executioner’s Capsule
4 Fatal Push
1 Go for the Throat
1 Collective Brutality
2 Mox Opal
1 Talisman of Dominance
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Welding Jar
4 Whir of Invention
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Darkslick Shores
2 River of Tears
1 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Inventors’ Fair
4 Polluted Delta
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
2 Watery Grave
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Culling Scales
4 Thoughtseize
1 Go for the Throat
2 Spreading Seas
I went 5-3-1 but was on zero sleep and playing terribly; I draw a very bizarre/complicated match against Abzan that was a win with decent play. Notably, I'm now 4-1 against Jund Shadow over the two events and I think the matchup is solid.
Notes:
- I soured on Bauble and I'm not sure where I stand on it moving ahead. As above, this deck's draws are often polarized (cards are either very good/bad based on the matchup) so the value of a random card is hard to gauge. I found you often need it to make Opal active but this forces you to keep Bauble in play past the point when you want to cash it in. The synergy with Tezz is cute and I love having extra 0-mana artifacts for Whir/Bridge, but idk.
- On that note, I'm not happy with Opal either. Opal makes your best draws better but often does little to nothing in your average or bad draws. Against decks with discard or artifact hate it's easy for them to make you 'mulligan' by stranding an Opal; I realized this weekend I should board them out against Shadow and similar decks. In particular, it was hard to make Opal help me jump ahead to T3 Tezz as often as I would like. It's obviously an amazing card and belongs in some capacity but I could see any of 1-4 being 'correct' depending on your configuration; I'm not sure if I want to double down on the turbo aspect of the deck or dial it back completely. Talisman was good and more reliable T3 Tezz/Damnation is very appealing.
- The green splash for Abrupt Decay would require overhauling the manabase but may well be worth it; Stony Silence is one of the few ways you can lose to the decks that play it and it's one of the best cards you can have against the GBx Shadow decks (Go for the Throat is nice but Liliana is often the big problem). Culling Scales was the only thing I could find that you can Whir for to beat Stony Silence but it's so bad :(.
- Whir is so, so good.
- Spreading Seas buys time against Tron but also does great work against Shadow and Burn while being fine against random other decks.
1 Noxious Revival
3 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Axe
4 Grisly Salvage
1 Tormenting Voice
4 Faithless Looting
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Griselbrand
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Mortuary Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pyroclasm
Report/primer (plus thoughts on other Goryo's Vengeance decks) here.