Inspired by the recent Channel Fireball article by Jonathan Melamed, I'm restructuring my sideboard to try Ashiok, Dream Render and more Abrades. Moreover, 4 Stubs main seems like where the deck wants to be. Here's the list I'm planning on piloting:
Any tips on sideboard cards? Is anyone using the 2 copies of Seasoned Pyromancers on the sideboard that pop on lists from time to time? Are you missing Anger of the Gods at all after the printing of Plague Engineer?
@AntaresRex, you may want to try a list similar to what @BloodyRabbit_01 posted not too long ago. If you have budget concerns sub Scalding Tarns for Flooded Strands. They are suboptimal as B is likely your main color, but Bx fetches, the "better" suboptimal choice, are at least double the price of Flooded Strands.
Definitely update the sideboard to reflect the current meta and your playstyle.
Ideally you want to invest in Snapcasters and K Commands in the long run. Even 2 or 3 Snapcasters will help you grind and K Command is pretty decent when everyone is jamming Stoneforge Mystic.
Faced Izzet Phoenix (2-1), Bant Spirits (2-0), G-Tron (2-0) and the new AltarVine (2-1).
I’ll state that again: if we want to grind, it’s better to play a different deck. We have to kill the opponent fast while disrupting him. Nothing more than that. I had some very ankward results with the ‘standàrd’ list (a pair of 2-3) cause Snapcaster Mage feels so out of the meta right now, between him being slow and the amount of Surgical/Relic maindecked.
List feels good. Dunno if it’s better than the last one I tried (heavy on Delve threats) but it runs smoothly and bypass Grave hate.
Thank you for your feedback! I'll definitely test out Dreadbore over Terminate in the following weeks. I'm actually curious to try 2 Dreadbore, cutting Terminate entirely, and see how many times the instant speed matters. Between Bolt, Push, K Command, Cryptic, and flash blockers, I should be able to navigate these situations.
On another note, how does your sideboarding versus Jund look like?
Long time GDS player here. I recently built Grixis Control and I'm still learning the ropes of the deck. I decided to take the following list to a MCQ with 226 players to a decent but unimpressive 5-3 finish:
I had a blast playing the 8 rounds and I really loved the gameplay of the deck. Between Nimble, Field of Ruin, and a Burkhart-inspired package of spells, I feel that I generally have an out for whatever is happening on the other side of the table. Kalitas also fixes many problems of the deck and gives some outs to the ever increasing Burn presence in the metagame. I won against Valakut (2-1), MonoU Merfolk (2-0), GW Devoted Druid + Stoneblade (2-1), and UB Mill (2-1). My losses were to Valakut (1-2) and two players on Jund (0-2). I'd like some advice on the latter, as I feel that the matchup shouldn't be particularly problematic.
Wrenn & Six's addition brought a lot of early value to the deck in a seemingly bolt-proof card. The games my opponent resolved a turn 2 W&6 often led to multiple cycling land redraws and a threat towards a game-winning ultimate. After some consideration I realized that both Bolt and K Commands were lackluster in this position, as the 3 damage is hardly relevant and the discard mode is also neutered. While the general plan to side out discard and pack better topdecks makes sense, it clearly leaves more room for an early W&6 to take control of the game. In this sense, what cards do you generally side in and out? What is your gameplan against Jund? Does it make sense to up discard count and early interaction such as Spell Snare or Spell Pierce in order to avoid the scenario described above?
I'd like to talk about what BW Eldrazi & Taxes maindeck looks like after Silent Clearing and Giver of Runes. Replacing every single flex slot with GoR and introducing some number of the Horizon lands makes our main look something like this:
What I don't like about it is forgoing the 4th Thalia, which seems to be one of the selling points of our deck in the first place. Should we at least have her on the sideboard? If so, does the "stock" sideboard look something like this?
I've been tinkering with the BW Eldrazi & Taxes list to make it better against some of the top decks of the format. Mostly aiming at UR Phoenix, GDS, and Dredge with my maindeck. Given that we're in BW, I'm also trying to tackle matchups such as Humans and Spirits with sideboard cards. Here's the tentative list I'm currently playing:
Brief comments:
(a) The way the curve is currently set up, it is very beneficial to set Vial on 2 and leverage Eldrazi Temples to cast 3cmc+ creatures. I believe this makes the Temples more meaningful and relevant when drawn in multiples.
(b) 7 1 drops make non-Vial hands more keepable. Relic into Thalia into TKS can go a long way against the decks I'm expecting. Even when not relevant, Relics are relatively easy to cycle and provide tons of food for Stranglers.
(c) The manabase tries to maximize the number of sources for each type of mana that the deck needs. I miss a couple of Horizon Canopies. The upside is that the Lilianas are very much castable, and we can rely a little bit more on black cards.
(d) The plan against creature decks is to board out all Thalias and play a Midrange role post sideboard. The PWs and the extra removal are very useful for that purpose.
(e) I try to compensate the lack of Flickerwisps with Leonin Relic-Warders in the SB. I'm not sure this is entirely correct. I'd love to play a white Reclamation Sage.
I'm struggling against the Whir Prison matchup. Their late game is much stronger and eventually they will set up bridge + torpor orb. What's your experience in this matchup? Does Kambal help?
Lastly, I'm not claiming this decklist is better than other versions such as the Chalice plan or even regular lists. It just fits my style better and provides tools for a specific meta that seems to be relevant. What's your experience playing Relic of Progenitus?
And yet, Ben Friedman just wrote an article yesterday defending a full playset of Baubles. 16th place at GP Tampa, his 75 had zero copies of Serum Visions or Opt. He also recommended these cards in the flex slots that could be any number of additional Snapcasters, K Commands, Stubborn Denials, and so forth. Even looking at mtgtop 8 averages and totals within the last two weeks shows less than half of the decks are using Visions, and most of them only two copies. The others are using two copies of Sleight of Hand instead.
The combination of Friedman's expertise and these points of data show that this deckbuilding aspect is not as trivial as "Serum Visions/Opt are powerful blue cantrips, play them." In fact, the low number of copies of a single of those effects makes me think they are not particularly impactful.
To add to the Serum Visions vs Sleight of Hand debacle, I believe what divides pilots is the issue of selection now or later. Not too long ago people were saying that Serum Visions' scry is useless in GDS due to the amount of fetching and shuffling involved. Sleight of Hand (or Opt for that matter) digs deeper for the card in your hand now instead of providing a random draw and a setup for later turns. I think this argument anti-Serum is debatable in the sense that Visions' scry makes Bauble and Wraith blind draws better, but it has its own merits.
I'd like to promote a discussion about our cantrip selection. I've seen many decks recently split our cantrips in 3 copies of Thought Scour, Bauble, Serum Visions/Opt, and 1-2 Faithless Looting. I firmly believe that 4 Thought Scours are needed in order to power up our early delve threats. Likewise, if our goal is to get those threats on the board ASAP, I don't see how the first copy of Serum Visions/Opt is better than the 4th copy of Bauble. I'd much prefer to pop 2 Baubles and play a discard spell T1 than T1 discard with Visions/Opt in hand.
Since our deck is no longer designed to grind (1 or 0 K commands, 3 Snaps, no LoTV) I don't see how spending mana on Serum Visions or Opt can be beneficial for our strategy. For example, if the pilot feels they constantly need to dig for land, the 18th land should be preferable than one the 2-3 loose copies of extra blue cantrips.
What's your experience with these splits and what are the pros and cons of your split? I'm currently running 4 Thought Scour, 4 Baubles and 18 lands. I'm very happy about it, specially due to being able to hit land drops for 3 CMC spells in the sideboard.
I've been tinkering with a more stompy version of BW Eldrazi & Taxes dropping Tidehollow Sculler and Flickerwisp for Eldrazi Mimic, the 23rd land, and 3 Reality Smashers. I've found things much easier to cast, often my clock is much faster, but the tradeoff is less disruption. Did anyone try a similar take on the archetype?
Here's what I'm testing. A flaw I'm trying to address is having sideboard answers to permanents that flickerwisp would normally be able to handle like Ensnaring Bridge or Gideon Planeswalkers. Maybe Anguished Unmaking may fit the bill?
Quick question about our land setup. I noticed Ben Friedman's GP Las Vegas list is composed of 17 lands with 10 fetches, 5 shocks, and 2 basics, as opposed to 11 fetches, 4 shocks, and 2 basics. Besides expecting significant land destruction in your meta, is there any particular reason to choose one over the other?
I think that's a fair point and the strongest argument to sleeve up Traverse Shadow instead of Grixis. My point is that this has nothing to do with an anti-Tron meta or a sudden premium on maindeck Abrupt Decays.
We also have to be careful not to draw too many conclusions from a single data point. GDS had a top 4 placement on the February 17th MODO Challenge, with Jace and BBE already unbanned.
mainly because GDS is the weakest tier 1 deck in an anti tron meta.
traverse DS survived the meta culling of the unbans because they mainboard abrupt decays while still playing the same DS strategy.
4 traverse to smooth out land draws (mitigate blood moon) and to tutor the win condition isn't too shabby either.
My impression of an anti-Tron meta is aggro and fast combo. How come GDS is not well positioned to fight those strategies? Also, there were only 3 lists running Blood Moon on the top 32, does that really explain the Traverse Shadow placement? What makes Abrupt Decay better positioned if it does not line up well against Jace or BBE?
I've been playing with 4 baubles and 17 lands for a little over a week now. The deck feels much better and less clunky. These are some of the relevant interactions bauble can offer:
- 1 lander w/ Thoughtseize + cantrip: take a look at the top of your library to evaluate if digging for lands is more important than disruption.
- 2 baubles + street wraith: check the top before fetching, reshuffle if you don't like it, try again immediately or next turn. Street Wraiths allow you to cycle into the bauble "scry".
- 1 bauble + cantrip: check the top of your opponent's library to figure out what they're playing. Use cantrip to find what you need to combat their strategy.
- Serum visions + Bauble is a free scry 2 to the top as long as you like both cards. Playsets of Baubles and Wraiths make Visions much more interesting and reliable.
- Bauble + discard spell: look at their top deck before discard to evaluate the best pick.
Inspired by the recent Channel Fireball article by Jonathan Melamed, I'm restructuring my sideboard to try Ashiok, Dream Render and more Abrades. Moreover, 4 Stubs main seems like where the deck wants to be. Here's the list I'm planning on piloting:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Death's Shadow
Land (18)
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instant (17)
4 Thought Scour
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
Sorcery (6)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Plague Engineer
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Abrade
3 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
Any tips on sideboard cards? Is anyone using the 2 copies of Seasoned Pyromancers on the sideboard that pop on lists from time to time? Are you missing Anger of the Gods at all after the printing of Plague Engineer?
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Silent Clearing
Noncreature spells (8)
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Giver of Runes
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Plague Engineer
2 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
2 Fatal Push
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Definitely update the sideboard to reflect the current meta and your playstyle.
Ideally you want to invest in Snapcasters and K Commands in the long run. Even 2 or 3 Snapcasters will help you grind and K Command is pretty decent when everyone is jamming Stoneforge Mystic.
Here's the list for reference:
On another note, how does your sideboarding versus Jund look like?
Long time GDS player here. I recently built Grixis Control and I'm still learning the ropes of the deck. I decided to take the following list to a MCQ with 226 players to a decent but unimpressive 5-3 finish:
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Field of Ruin
Creatures (9)
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Opt
2 Logic Knot
1 Countersquall
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Cryptic Command
1 Countersquall
2 Collective Brutality
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Thoughtseize
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
I had a blast playing the 8 rounds and I really loved the gameplay of the deck. Between Nimble, Field of Ruin, and a Burkhart-inspired package of spells, I feel that I generally have an out for whatever is happening on the other side of the table. Kalitas also fixes many problems of the deck and gives some outs to the ever increasing Burn presence in the metagame. I won against Valakut (2-1), MonoU Merfolk (2-0), GW Devoted Druid + Stoneblade (2-1), and UB Mill (2-1). My losses were to Valakut (1-2) and two players on Jund (0-2). I'd like some advice on the latter, as I feel that the matchup shouldn't be particularly problematic.
Wrenn & Six's addition brought a lot of early value to the deck in a seemingly bolt-proof card. The games my opponent resolved a turn 2 W&6 often led to multiple cycling land redraws and a threat towards a game-winning ultimate. After some consideration I realized that both Bolt and K Commands were lackluster in this position, as the 3 damage is hardly relevant and the discard mode is also neutered. While the general plan to side out discard and pack better topdecks makes sense, it clearly leaves more room for an early W&6 to take control of the game. In this sense, what cards do you generally side in and out? What is your gameplan against Jund? Does it make sense to up discard count and early interaction such as Spell Snare or Spell Pierce in order to avoid the scenario described above?
Thank you for your advice.
I'd like to talk about what BW Eldrazi & Taxes maindeck looks like after Silent Clearing and Giver of Runes. Replacing every single flex slot with GoR and introducing some number of the Horizon lands makes our main look something like this:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Silent Clearing
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (30)
4 Giver of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
What I don't like about it is forgoing the 4th Thalia, which seems to be one of the selling points of our deck in the first place. Should we at least have her on the sideboard? If so, does the "stock" sideboard look something like this?
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Wasteland Strangler
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Fatal Push
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
And then you fill out the 4 remaining slots with cards like Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Selfless Spirit, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Kor Firewalker, Settle the Wreckage and so forth?
What are you going to try post-Modern Horizons?
I've been tinkering with the BW Eldrazi & Taxes list to make it better against some of the top decks of the format. Mostly aiming at UR Phoenix, GDS, and Dredge with my maindeck. Given that we're in BW, I'm also trying to tackle matchups such as Humans and Spirits with sideboard cards. Here's the tentative list I'm currently playing:
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Shambling Vent
2 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
Noncreature Spells (11)
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Fatal Push
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Auriok Champion
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
Brief comments:
(a) The way the curve is currently set up, it is very beneficial to set Vial on 2 and leverage Eldrazi Temples to cast 3cmc+ creatures. I believe this makes the Temples more meaningful and relevant when drawn in multiples.
(b) 7 1 drops make non-Vial hands more keepable. Relic into Thalia into TKS can go a long way against the decks I'm expecting. Even when not relevant, Relics are relatively easy to cycle and provide tons of food for Stranglers.
(c) The manabase tries to maximize the number of sources for each type of mana that the deck needs. I miss a couple of Horizon Canopies. The upside is that the Lilianas are very much castable, and we can rely a little bit more on black cards.
(d) The plan against creature decks is to board out all Thalias and play a Midrange role post sideboard. The PWs and the extra removal are very useful for that purpose.
(e) I try to compensate the lack of Flickerwisps with Leonin Relic-Warders in the SB. I'm not sure this is entirely correct. I'd love to play a white Reclamation Sage.
I'm struggling against the Whir Prison matchup. Their late game is much stronger and eventually they will set up bridge + torpor orb. What's your experience in this matchup? Does Kambal help?
Lastly, I'm not claiming this decklist is better than other versions such as the Chalice plan or even regular lists. It just fits my style better and provides tools for a specific meta that seems to be relevant. What's your experience playing Relic of Progenitus?
The combination of Friedman's expertise and these points of data show that this deckbuilding aspect is not as trivial as "Serum Visions/Opt are powerful blue cantrips, play them." In fact, the low number of copies of a single of those effects makes me think they are not particularly impactful.
To add to the Serum Visions vs Sleight of Hand debacle, I believe what divides pilots is the issue of selection now or later. Not too long ago people were saying that Serum Visions' scry is useless in GDS due to the amount of fetching and shuffling involved. Sleight of Hand (or Opt for that matter) digs deeper for the card in your hand now instead of providing a random draw and a setup for later turns. I think this argument anti-Serum is debatable in the sense that Visions' scry makes Bauble and Wraith blind draws better, but it has its own merits.
I'd like to promote a discussion about our cantrip selection. I've seen many decks recently split our cantrips in 3 copies of Thought Scour, Bauble, Serum Visions/Opt, and 1-2 Faithless Looting. I firmly believe that 4 Thought Scours are needed in order to power up our early delve threats. Likewise, if our goal is to get those threats on the board ASAP, I don't see how the first copy of Serum Visions/Opt is better than the 4th copy of Bauble. I'd much prefer to pop 2 Baubles and play a discard spell T1 than T1 discard with Visions/Opt in hand.
Since our deck is no longer designed to grind (1 or 0 K commands, 3 Snaps, no LoTV) I don't see how spending mana on Serum Visions or Opt can be beneficial for our strategy. For example, if the pilot feels they constantly need to dig for land, the 18th land should be preferable than one the 2-3 loose copies of extra blue cantrips.
What's your experience with these splits and what are the pros and cons of your split? I'm currently running 4 Thought Scour, 4 Baubles and 18 lands. I'm very happy about it, specially due to being able to hit land drops for 3 CMC spells in the sideboard.
Looking forward to hearing your comments!
I've been tinkering with a more stompy version of BW Eldrazi & Taxes dropping Tidehollow Sculler and Flickerwisp for Eldrazi Mimic, the 23rd land, and 3 Reality Smashers. I've found things much easier to cast, often my clock is much faster, but the tradeoff is less disruption. Did anyone try a similar take on the archetype?
Here's what I'm testing. A flaw I'm trying to address is having sideboard answers to permanents that flickerwisp would normally be able to handle like Ensnaring Bridge or Gideon Planeswalkers. Maybe Anguished Unmaking may fit the bill?
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vents
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Noncreature (8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
2 Blade Splicer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smashers
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Auriok Champion
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Fatal Push
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
Any advice is very welcome!
Quick question about our land setup. I noticed Ben Friedman's GP Las Vegas list is composed of 17 lands with 10 fetches, 5 shocks, and 2 basics, as opposed to 11 fetches, 4 shocks, and 2 basics. Besides expecting significant land destruction in your meta, is there any particular reason to choose one over the other?
I think that's a fair point and the strongest argument to sleeve up Traverse Shadow instead of Grixis. My point is that this has nothing to do with an anti-Tron meta or a sudden premium on maindeck Abrupt Decays.
We also have to be careful not to draw too many conclusions from a single data point. GDS had a top 4 placement on the February 17th MODO Challenge, with Jace and BBE already unbanned.
My impression of an anti-Tron meta is aggro and fast combo. How come GDS is not well positioned to fight those strategies? Also, there were only 3 lists running Blood Moon on the top 32, does that really explain the Traverse Shadow placement? What makes Abrupt Decay better positioned if it does not line up well against Jace or BBE?
- 1 lander w/ Thoughtseize + cantrip: take a look at the top of your library to evaluate if digging for lands is more important than disruption.
- 2 baubles + street wraith: check the top before fetching, reshuffle if you don't like it, try again immediately or next turn. Street Wraiths allow you to cycle into the bauble "scry".
- 1 bauble + cantrip: check the top of your opponent's library to figure out what they're playing. Use cantrip to find what you need to combat their strategy.
- Serum visions + Bauble is a free scry 2 to the top as long as you like both cards. Playsets of Baubles and Wraiths make Visions much more interesting and reliable.
- Bauble + discard spell: look at their top deck before discard to evaluate the best pick.
I'm sure there are many more useful interactions. I highly recommend the following reading: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/eduardo-sajgalik/optimizing-grixis-shadow
Source for reference: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2018-02-18
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
Creatures (15)
4 Death's Shadow
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
Instants (15)
2 Dismember
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Thought Scour
Artifacts (4)
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Island
Thoughts?