MTG Salvation

Quote from Gameshark2k2 »

If we're thinking about going that route for winning, Assault Formation was mentioned to me yesterday as an alt wincon. I started laughing because of how cute it could be.

This is hilarious and I am going to build this deck I think. Monastery Mentor, Bastion Inventor, and Geist of Saint Traft all backed up by Puresteel Paladin and Cathar's Shield with some Assault Formation sounds right up my alley.

Quote from the_falsehate »

It sounds like you fought hard, good job! Paradoxical Outcome can win games out of nowhere, that's for sure. Did you feel like you needed Mass Hysteria with Mentor?

Honestly, Retract would have been just as good as Paradoxical Outcome there. I wouldn't have gotten to bounce my Sram or draw ~10 cards, but having Sram on the table would have made up for it, and I could have used an Echoing Truth on Sram had that become an issue, or just not drawn for or even played the Paladin.

As for Monastery Mentor, I played him 100% as just a way to grind out a win, so Mass Hysteria wouldn't have really mattered. I was only able to make two tokens due to playing out a Mox Opal before the Mentor so I could cast a Retract in response to the Path that was in response to the first trigger. I'd say Geist of Saint Traft would have been better there, but since my opponent had a Liliana of the Veil at the time, it probably wouldn't have, in that exact situation. I still just feel really weird playing such a glass cannon deck with my only win cons in the main being 2 Grapeshot and 8 copies of Grizzly Bears. I want to go back to my grindy lists, but I think I'll give this one (or something like it) one more shot. I do love me some Silence.

2-1 last night with this list:



Round 1 vs Mono White Knight Tribal (2-1)

Game one, on the draw, I keep a hand with 2 Puresteel Paladins, one of which I play on turn 2. It lives, so on turn 3 I play a second one and start comboing off. After my first Retract I play a third Paladin and start casting a pile of 0 mana Ancestral Recalls. I draw my entire library and win.

Game two I don't really remember what happened other than he had a very fast clock and I couldn't combo.

Game three he taps out on his turn one so I play a Paladin on turn two, play three equipment, then pass. He untaps and Path to Exiles my guy. Luckily he has a slow clock, helped along by my Echoing Truth hitting two of his creatures. Turn 6 I drop a Sram, Senior Edificer and a Puresteel Paladin and play a few 0s, followed by a second Paladin and proceed to win from there.

Round 2 vs Grixis Delver (0-2)

Game one I keep a 1 land hand but by the time I find a second one (and third) he has enough mana to counter my engine and then an engine and Swan Song. I eventually lose to the Tasigur, the Golden Fang beats.

Game two plays out similarly, with me never sticking an engine. Turns out the deck full of countermagic, Fatal Push, and Lightning Bolt (and probably Terminate_ is a bad matchup.

Round 3 vs Junk (2-0)

Game one goes quite long, with me dropping all the way down to 3 life before finally getting to combo. I don't remember exactly how it happened, but I think I lost a few engines before I that last good turn.

Game two I lose engines to Path to Exile, Liliana of the Veil and Inquisition of Kozilek. I eventually drop a Monastery Mentor which leaves behind two Monk tokens before finding me another basic Plains. I eventually lose both tokens trying to take out his Liliana (he Nature's Claimed a Cathar's Shield during combat to trade with one with his Eternal Witness). I eventually find a Sram, Senior Edificer but fizzle out. Noxious Revival finds me a Retract in response to him using his last G on a Scavenging Ooze activation, but I still can't win. Finally, I draw Paradoxical Outcome, picking up about 10 cards, including my Sram, since I only had 24 cards left in my library at that point. I play a Puresteel and draw my deck before Grapeshoting him for 23.

RE: Storm Count

I count up storm before casting my first Retract since it's usually just count your equipment and engine if you played one that turn, and write it down. Then I write down the new storm count prior to the second Retract. It gets the job done without needing to track each spell individually.

RE: Mana Base

Here's what I played on Wednesday:



The Glacial Fortress probably looks kind of weird, but it actually makes a ton of sense if you look at the rest of my deck. The only turn 1 play is to equip a Paradise Mantle to the one-of Ornithopter and every other land in the deck allows it to enter untapped. It would probably be either a Seachrome Coast or Mana Confluence if I was running Serum Visions or multiple non fetch/non fetchable lands.

I play 2 Sacred Foundry to support my main deck Ghirapur Æther Grid and allow me to cast a Grapeshot through a Stony Silence. I don't think you should ever play less than one non artifact red source, and having it be fetchable is best. It might be correct to play 1 Foundry and maybe a 7th fetch or second non fetchable.

The 2 basic Plains are good against Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter, and Blood Moon and also just are useful if you need to fetch an untapped white source without bolting yourself.

So, can we talk about Sigil of Distinction for a bit? I've personally never played with the card, so I'm curious what other people's thoughts are on it. Is it better than Kite Shield? What about Bone Saw or Spidersilk Net? How do we decide what's better? Let's look at the pros and cons of each; remember, we generally don't care what most of these do if we're able to combo, they only matter if we aren't winning the turn we play them.

Paradise Mantle
Pros:
Lets your guys tap for mana
Only costs 1 to equip
Cons:
No power or toughness boosting

Accorder's Shield and Cathar's Shield
Pros:

• Gives 3 toughness, screw you, Lightning Bolt
• Vigilance is actually useful when we're on the beatdown plan

Cons:

• No power boosting
• Costs 3 to equip

Kite Shield
Pros:

• Gives 3 toughness, screw you, Lightning Bolt

Cons:

• No power boosting
• Costs 3 to equip
• No vigilance

Spidersilk Net
Pros:

• Gives 2 toughness, still screw you, Lightning Bolt
• Reach is useful for blocking Insectile Aberration and friends
• The 2 to equip is affordable

Cons:

• No power boosting
• OG art doesn't go well with the shields

Bone Saw
Pros:

• +1/+0 matters on the beatdown plan
• Equips for only 1

Cons:

• No toughness boosting
• OG art is really, really weird, and doesn't go well with the shields

Sigil of Distinction
Pros:

• Can be cast with X = 1 (or more) to dodge Chalice of the Void
• Boosts power and toughness, if you pay mana for it
• Doesn't cost mana to equip

Cons:

• Does literal nothing if you didn't pay mana for it
• Gets worse if you use its natural equipd cost

I think that covers it all, but let me know if I missed anything. The next question is deciding how to value those qualities. Note that this is for combo centric builds, we're not taking Goblin Gaveleer or Glint Hawk into account here, though I will consider Geist of Saint Traft, Monastery Mentor, and Bastion Inventor here.

My personal rating is as follows:

1. Paradise Mantle
2. Cathar's Shield
3. Accorder's Shield
4. Spidersilk Net
5. Kite Shield
6. Bone Saw

Sigil of Distinction doesn't make my list because I've never played with it, but if I had to place it, I would probably stick it in just above Bone Saw.

What do you guys think?

I think you have a land in play and an untapped land in hand, so you could get to two mana without opal.

Yeah, it really depends on the matchup, what they've got going on, and what your build looks like. If you know there is 0 chance of them killing you or playing a hate piece, I would drop Sram and pass. If you're worried about them getting in for a ton of damage or worried they will have removal and countermagic on their turn, but they're tapped out right now, then play something and try to go off. If they're UR control, so the only removal to worry about is bolt, play Paladin, play some amount of equipment and make sure Paladin has at least 5 toughness, 6 if possible. If they aren't playing red, lead with Sram. If you see a Retract while playing out the first 3 equipment (for metalcraft) just keep going until it either looks like you're gonna win for sure or you run out or almost run out of gas. Only cast the Retract if you think you can win or have more than one. In general, waiting until you have two engines in play is better if you can get away with it.

Quote from Fayrawks »

edit: How are people feeling about Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard? Is he better or worse than Monastery Mentor + Mass Hysteria, Goblin Gaveleer, or Bastion Inventor?

I haven't tried out Bastion Inventor yet, but I really liked my Geist against Grixis Delver. I'm pretty sure his only out was Engineered Explosives on 3, but I had way too much going on for him to handle. It's worth noting I have main deck Monastery Mentors and Mass Hysteria as a win condition, the Geists are just good against decks full of removal as a way to grind out a win, which is already something my deck is looking to be able to do. A more all in build might benefit more or less from the sideboard Geists, I don't know which.

Quote from the_falsehate »

I spent the time seeing what everyone else is up to. I've been playing Lantern & Nahiri until switching to Suicide Bloo and now back to Cheeri0s. After playing grindy control, which I love, I can see the advantage Burn players had in the luxury of time to do recon before the next round!

EDIT: And I'm sure I don't need to tell you that 8 minutes takes a lot of skill, and the ability to explain shortcuts to a seasoned player that will let you draw through most of your deck with a zillion triggers and will admit that they aren't going to interact while you drop 8 Cheerios at once and draw 8 off of Sram's must ability but only 12 off the may abilities of the two Paladins you have in play, etc...

I'm mostly joking, I used to play hyper agro in standard with turn 3 wins. Last week at FNM I I finished a round in like 10 minutes after winning on turn 4 two games in a row. And there was that one time where I won a match with Eggs in 15 minutes, without my opponent conceding until I fully combo'd both games. But you're right, playing long control or combo matches is a disadvantage. I went to time probably 5 rounds out of the 7 I played at my first GP, and it was grueling. At smaller events, knowing who's playing what is a real thing too. Round one tonight probably half the store heard me explain to my opponent my Erayo trick after I pulled it on him game three.

Quote from the_falsehate »

I think you're making things difficult for yourself by sticking with the midrangy creature/haste thing. While reading your report I found myself so glad to leave those headaches behind. We have 8 engines, just load up on Cheeri0s and kill them dead fast! I kid you not my match with Affinity last night lasted 8 minutes.

As a former Eggs player, I have no clue what to do with myself after an 8 minute round.

All joking aside, how good is the all in version against players who actually know what they're doing playing against Cheeri0s? It looks great against an unsuspecting field, I'll give you that, but how well does it handle the players who know what they're doing?

2-1-1 today with this list:



Round 1 vs Junk (1-2)

This was *not* a stock build. I saw one Liliana of the Veil and one Inquisition of Kozilek all match, no Tarmogoyf, Grim Flayer, or what have you. I did see Birds of Paradise and Scavenging Ooze as well as Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Eternal Witness.

Game one he basically won with multiple Path to Exiles. I don't really remember what happened other than I tried to go off and he had removal every time.

Sideboard: -1 Repeal, -1 Sram, Senior Edificer, -1 Puresteel Paladin, +2 Geist of Saint Traft, +1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant

Game two I had turn 1 Ornithopter with a Paradise Mantle to match his turn 2 Birds of Paradise, then I eventually found a Paladin and tried to go off but fizzled. Tried to follow up with a Mass Hysteria to start making mana but he killed it in response to my equip. PRO TIP: equip stuff before playing stuff when given the option. A turn or two later I found a Monastery Mentor and made 16 monks (I think there might have been a second Paladin as well) and we were onto game three.

Game three I kept a hand of Ornithopter, Sram, Erayo, 2 Cheeri0s, and 2 lands. He lead with a BoP and I played a land one turn one and passed. He played a second land and a Scavenging Ooze keeping up a white mana. On my second turn I played my land, followed by Ornithopter, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, and then Spidersilk Net. He responded to the Net with Path to Exile, so I got an Erayo's Essence. PRO TIP: always play Erayo, Soratami Ascendant as your second spell, not the third. This gives your opponent the opportunity to misplay and respond to spell number three with removal, triggering Erayo for you. PRO TIP: RTFC. Anyway, I sat there with an Ornithopter and he started attacking me with the Scooze. We went to time, but he drew removal for my blocker on the last turn of the game to get in for exactsies. Womp womp

I felt like this matchup for unfavorable but not unwinnable. Maybe should have brought in Silence to make a big combo turn doable.

Round 2 vs Mono White Knights (2-0)

Game one I was on the draw and kept a hand with a couple lands, a paladin or two and a cheeri0 or two. We both did nothing until turn 3 where he tapped out for some random knight so I was safe to play my Puresteel. I play 3 0s, including a Paradise Mantle before fizzling, played a land, equipped the Pally, and passed. He played Elspeth, Knight-Errant and attacked for 5. End of his turn I Repealed one of my equipment, not the Paradise Mantle, then untapped, played two more Paladins, and went to town holding up my land drop just incase I needed it.

Sideboard: -1 Repeal, +1 Echoing Truth. I wanted to have the option to bounce one of his creatures for less than 4 mana, so I brought in Truth. Also because he could have sideboard Leyline of Sanctity and 5 mana to bounce that is way too much.

Game two he once again tapped out on turn 3 so I was safe to play my Sram. Drew well and never needed to play a third land. Grapeshot for 38 on turn 3 seems fine.

Overall I felt super favored here. I was able to wait for him to tap out and then just go for it. The only card I really cared about from him was Path to Exile and it's easy enough to play around against a deck that needs to tap out to put on any pressure.

Round 3 vs Grixis Delver (2-0)

Game one I kept a hand with turn 2 Paladin but he had removal. What he did not have was countermagic for my turn 3 Ghirapur Æther Grid, which killed his Insectile Aberration and eventually him. At one point I used a Retract for dodge his Kolaghan's Command on my Mox Opal and got in some extra damage that way.

Sideboard: -1 Sram, Senior Edificer, -1 Puresteel Paladin, -1 Repeal, +2 Geist of Saint Traft, + 1 Dispel

Game two I had an unanswered Paladin on turn 2, though I did fizzle. Suited it and my Ornithopter up and passed. Next turn I attacked with the Paladin, then played a Geist of Saint Traft holding up Dispel, though I didn't need it. Next turn I attacked with my Paladin and a 2/8 Geist. He chumped the angel token with his Insectile Aberration. I played a Monastery Mentor, which he tried to kill with Kolaghan's Command, but he scooped to the Dispel I had for it.

I think this match wasn't very indicative of how the matchup normally is, since he got kind of mana screwed game 1 and I got super lucky game two with a Geist and a Mentor, two of the best cards in the matchup, as well as a Dispel. I assumed it would be bad, but I think it might actually be closer to even. I do know he sideboarded poorly, but I still felt like I was in the driver's seat the whole time.

Round 4 vs Mono White Humans (0-0-3) We drew and went home.

So, I think I need to learn how to sideboard. I was always struggling to decide what to board out, to the point where I might have under boarded a couple times. I also learned a new trick and affirmed an old one.

Trick #1 (new): always attach equipment when you have a Paladin in play before casting any spells. Ignore this if your opponent is clearly F6'd, but this can save you from a 2-for-1. For example, let's say you have a Spidersilk Net, a Paradise Mantle, and an Ornithopter. Your opponent is representing Lightning Bolt (or some other removal spell). You cast a Puresteel Paladin and it resolves. You should start by equipping the Mantle to the Thopter. If your opponent has removal, they might use it on the Paladin in response to the equip. If they do, hey, at least you got the free equip in and now the Ornithopter taps for mana. If they don't, great, we now have priority. The next step is to equip the Spidersilk Net to the Paladin. Now they have to bolt the Pally in response or it survives. If the Net gets attached to the Paladin, now you have free (or at least somewhat free) reign to start playing more cheeri0s.

Trick #2 (old): If you want to flip an Erayo, Soratami Ascendant using herself and some non-instant spells, you should always player her as the second spell of the turn. Your opponent will likely try to bolt/path/push her in response to the spell you cast after she resolves, causing her to flip. RTFC, opponent. If you have an instant you can play her as your first spell. Then, when you cast your second spell, if your opponent tries to kill her in response you can respond with your instant, which, as the fourth spell of the turn, will cause her to trigger. Note that none of this works against Abrupt Decay and it assumes your opponent will misplay. Luckily most people don't actually know how to play against Erayo, so this usually works in your favor.

That's all I've got this time, let me know what you think of my list, and give me all your sideboarding tips please!

I'm on mobile, so this post is gonna look like crap and I might miss a few of the points I wanted to get to, but here goes.

I used to play some number of Serum Visions. It's great turn one. It's fine turn two if you don't have an engine or a second land. It's mostly bad mid combo if you go off on turn 2 but not complete crap on a turn 3 combo. I have pulled off some Paradise Mantle shenanigans with Monastery Mentor and the haste enchantment that I can't think of the name of. Anyway, the card is OK imo.

Card selection is always great. Don't get into the trap of "but I wanted both those cards, screw you Sleight of Hand!" You are spending one mana and one card to get the best card out of the unknown top two. I cannot think of a situation where there is actually a decent chance that both of the top 2 are exactly what you need. Most of the time you won't want either of them because our deck has a ton of dead draws when we don't have an engine. If you need to dig for something casting Sleight of Hand always helps.

Commune with Nature is good at exactly one job: ******* your mana. I tried playing it one night, I had so much trouble finding all my colors with a stupid Temple Garden in my deck. If you fetch the wrong land on turn one you might lose on turn three because of it. Remember kids, tapping your only two lands for Paladin on turn three and canttipping your way into a spell you can't cast because you used your only fetchable green source or red source in the deck hurts so much. If I'm trying to go off the turn I fetch my second land I usually grab Plains because it's the worst land in our deck and I want to be drawing live to the bethere ones later. I guess it can dig 5 cards deep, but it's only good when you want a creature. It's probably fine in Fruit Loops builds, but not my UWr fetch shock ones.

People at the GP, I'm judging the am shift Friday and Saturday. I have a fun modern deck with me if you want to play after one of my shifts, or just listen to me rant about Temple Gardens, though I'm likely to want to go find food right away on Saturday. I might show up Sunday morning. I can play any format really, though modern is the only one I have a deck for here. I also have my judge tower if you hate yourself or just like randomly losing to Baneshment.

Is this really any better than Dispel for us?

Paladins are one of the last things I need that cost less than $20 to foil. I might pick some up at GP Louisville this weekend (anyone else gonna be there?). Everything else in the main deck I already have or just ordered.

Rules answer: Sram, Senior Edificer draws you a card when you cast, before the cheeri0 resolves. It is probably correct to respond to their removal by casting more 0s, one at a time, to draw more cards. Holding priority seems like a bad plan, we gain nothing by doing it and we give up info in doing so. The only time we'd want to do that is if we're playing around Sudden Shock, though I wouldn't expect too many people to play that against us.

Personally I use tappedout.net's playtester, though there probably is something better. here's my list there, just click on the playtest button on the left. Make sure to learn the shortcut keys, they make things go really quickly. I like version 1 of the playtester better, but that may be due to my longtime use of it.