daviusminimus, fpawlusz, thank you for suggestions. Knowing 'vs Naya Zoo is a tough game' make me feel much more peaceful now, I didn't expect it and lost a local-store (the biggest MTG store in Beijing) semifinal to it so so so quick last weekend.
I feel Chalice is not good here, considering I have no SSG in my deck, turn-2 Chalice looks not so charming.
After the reading, my new thought of sideboard maybe:
-1 Cavern, -1 Bog, -2 Relic, -1 Ballista
+1 Baloth, +1 Thragtusk, +1 Queen, +1 Rec Sage (vs Eidolon) +1 EE
Sometimes I feel K-return like a dead card in this game... And I wish I can keep Pact of Negation to deal with Deflecting Palm. I don't know whether I can board in Ruric Thar, seems it's too slow... I guess the key point of this game is adding some life as soon as possible...
My experience with Academy Ruins is mainly a win-more because the tempo loss caused by its activating mana cost. And more, Academy Ruins is a colorless land, I feel sometimes I struggle in situation that my opening hands lacking green mana source... As my latest version, I use a second EE in sideboard instead of the Academy Ruins.
In lotus bloom version, how about add some 'Wargate'? Then if we have no bloom in opening hands, then maybe we can 'Wargate' one in turn 3, and then titan in turn 4. And more, 'Wargate' is kind of tutor in very late game.
Thanks @daviusminimus, Your Nature's Claim guide and Melira guide inspired me a lot. As I abandoned all Leylines in my sideboard (may be it's a mistake if Junk goes back), I feel my deck is not as stable as yours vs Burn. I have to recover some life (Titan or Thragtusk) before Burn killed me, and the speed is the first consideration, then I will sideboard out all Hive Mind and all U-pact and even B-pact to wish higher possibility of a fast opener. And usually sideboard in Firespout and Pyroclasm but not always effective.
I agree Wolf Run is not a must-have, we generate enough threat when we still have access to Titan but without Wolf Run. If I feel the game could become long enough that I may run out of all the 4 Titans, then I guess sideboard in one Thragtusk as backup threat is enough. And as you said, we can +2/+0 and double-strike the tokens. In contrast, the 2nd Vesuva surely is a must-have, it provides so much flexibility. As a word, if I have space I'd love to add 1 Wolf Run but the fact is no...
After unbannings, I agree we have to pay more attention on counters. I guess I will mainboard the Cavern of Souls and sideboard Ghost Quarter, and add 1 Swan Song and drop the 2nd Stony Silence. I will add Melira in but haven't made a decision for what to replace, I guess I will drop the 3rd Nature's Claim but reserve the Temple of Mystery. I feel Temple of Mystery sometimes help me gather all combo components 1 turn earlier. I feel possibly it's important as a filter because we have no space for any Sleight of Hand after the Bloom ban now... In my situation, I guess the mainboard war is Ghost Quarter vs Temple of Mystery, both of them help nothing on turn-1 scout...
@ Eliacy - nice report and list. I came to the exact same thinking. A T4 Titan is great in the grindy match-ups (which is where Pentad Prism shines), but it's not good enough vs affinity / infect and all those types of decks. That's how I ended up on Scout instead of explore. Just responding to some of your points.
5. I found U-pact weak in a lot of our tougher match-ups, such as the fast decks, and drawing a 2nd is always bad. Having access to it is key, so I'd always run 1, but I just thought it was pretty bad in multiples. I could see an argument for a 2nd in the board, I think that's where it's best.
8. Try it! It's working wonders for me. It turns on T2 Azusa's -> T3 Titans (I've even gone T1 Gemstone Cavern, SSG, Land, Azusa once). I'm considering a 2nd, though it's a bad draw, and obviously bad on the play. But, when do you need the ramp most? When you're on the draw! It makes a lot of sense in our deck, and I'm 100% sure it's worth running. A 1-of is probably right though. I've sometimes got hard calls on what to remove, but honestly, you usually have some contenders. If you have 2 bouncelands, you can usually afford to loose 1. If you have a gemstone mine, sometimes you don't need that. Or you may have a 2nd copy of Azusa, or a Summoner's Pact when you already have a titan. I've also removed my only alt-win in hive mind before (as you say, its bad in the opener anyway). Even Simian Spirit Guide is worth considering, since gemstone caverns is a ramp spell (in a way) and sticks around. There's enough contenders that you can mull to 6 and find something to remove. I wouldn't want to mull to 5 and see this card though.
9. Agree again Claim is good vs burn too.
10. Melira is easier to find (summoner's pact), and can be cast as early as T2/T3 with scouts/ssg to pay for pacts. Chalice is good too, you're right. But it's harder to tutor up and use if you have to use tolaria west into chalice.
Good to share our thoughts. I have an event on sunday but not sure what I'm playing yet. It'll probably be this deck though!
I agree with your thoughts, here is some of my understanding:
5, At first, I think I need 1 U-pact to protect Titan, and the second one to work with Hive Mind. However, I realize that we have only 1 Hive Mind now... So I feel 1 U-pact instead of 2 is ok if we need space for 4/3 settings of Azusa/SSG.
8, I did some goldfishing today, and totally agree Gemstone Caverns worth at least 1. I feel about 1/4 of the chance it help us one turn faster (sometimes turn-2 titan!) , and I nearly never miss the original 3rd RG-Bounce. I guess if we mull to 5, then we can choose to consider it as a normal land and do not exile another card, right?
9, How many Claim should be sideboard in when we fight burn? I'd like to know your suggestion.
10, When I have time, I'll test the match up further through VPT vs Infect with the help of Melira. I can't make sure whether I should simply abandon Infect game...
And a question to ask:
* Do we need a Kessig Wolf Run? We have some 1/1, 1/2, 2/2(SSG) creatures and some 0/1 plants now, how about we add the Wolf Run in to help them attack?
I'm starting to test as though the meta is back to normal (not just eldrazi / affinity wars). The only cards to discuss really are:
3 Sakura-Tribe Scout (instead of explore etc) - I felt the deck was too slow, and Scout helps with that. I find it almost impossible to race affinity on a T3 Azusa, so this gave me a fighting chance.
1 Gemstone Caverns - this card has been REALLY good. I dont think you can run too many, but each time i've had it, it's lead to explosive hands. I've now had "Gemstone caverns, cast Amulet, play bounceland, remove spirit guide, play azusa" on turn 1, into T2 replay bounceland 3 times to make titan mana - i've done this twice in about 5 "gemstone cavern" games!!
3 Simian Spirit Guides - I'm fully sold on 4 Azusa's. It's now the best card in the deck. With 4 Amulets, you have a half-decent chance of landing a T2 Azusa. With an extra 3 Spirit Guides, the odds increase. And with gemstone caverns as an 8th ramp spell on the draw, there's a real possibility of a T3 Titan.
1 Hive Mind - I've explained my choice here before, but in all honesty, I think 1 is the right number. It's not good in your opener, and only serves as an alt win for certain match-ups. The deck still filters and digs pretty well, so i'm comfortable with just 1.
1 Pact of Negation - same reasoning as Hive Mind!
You will also notice I have 2 Vesuva but only 8 bouncelands (instead of the usual 9). Having cut my Stirrings down to 2, this may be a bit of a risk. But, I find myself using Vesuva as a bounceland quite often anyway, and the 2nd Vesuva does really add quite a bit of utility to the deck.
My main question mark now is whether i should run 2/4, 3/3 or 4/2 mix of Stirrings / Visions. With 27 land, perhaps I should run 4 stirrings, but we'll see!
Hi daviusminimus, I found my list is very similar to your choice. I'd like to share my thinking although those are just small pieces.
When the ban of Bloom occur, I think the main object of this deck is to land a titan no later than the turn-4. So I use "Journey of Discovery" or "Pentad Prism" to replace Bloom (more difficult to disturb than creature engine), and usually I can have a turn-4 titan even if I have no amulet. However, after some local FNM games, I found this way is weak by two reasons: 1, turn-4 titan without amulet can't attack, so this is in fact a turn-5 attacking situation, which is too slow in Modern meta; 2, if the first turn-4 titan is killed, usually I have no enough mana source to land the second one in the next turn. Then I feel the main object should be: try to land a titan in turn 3 and no later than turn 4, and keeping enough mana source for titan chain.
Then the only answer is "Amulet + ability of landing multi bouncelands", then I realized that "Sakura-Tribe Scout" is the real replacement for Bloom. When we have Amulet, Scout can help us provide 4 more mana than last turn, and Azusa provide 6, which is usually enough to pay for pact and land another titan the same turn.
Thanks to the discussions here, I forge my deck as following. Although I just get 2-2 in a local store game yesterday (If I attacked with both my titan and Thragtusk, I could beat my 3rd round Naya Burn opponent... It's a silly mistake...), I feel the deck is strong again, it is fast enough to threat opponents although it's one turn slower than the old version.
Here is some discussion of my thinking:
1, 3 Scouts: I want a turn-1 Scout to speed up, so 2 Scouts maybe too less. But it affects only the next turn after landing in and so fragile, then I think 4 Scouts is too much...
2, 3 Azusa: It's Legendary, I feel 2 or more Azusa in opener seems stupid but it is our most powerful land engine...
3, 2 Simian Spirit Guide: Titan will landing one turn earlier, which is **super important** after the ban. However, it is a one-time mana engine, it speed up the first titan but helps nothing for the second one. So I feel 2 SSG is enough.
4, 1 Hive Mind: Hive Mind in opener like a dead card since the ban slow us one turn, I REALLY REALLY don't want 2 Hive Minds in opener and 0 Mind in opener is better. However, I don't mind reserve a small possibility to have a powerful plan B.
5, 2 Pact of Negation: I just feel only 1 Blue pact is not enough to protect the titans...
6, 1 Slaughter Pact: Hmm, the reason is Spellskite...
7, 4 Serum Visions + 3 Ancient Stirrings: Amulet is super important, but Amulet is not always the lacking piece for our combo, so I prefer Serum Visions (digging for 3 depth is enough for most situation) over Ancient Stirrings. I feel 2 or 3 Ancient Stirrings is enough.
8, I really like the "Gemstone Caverns" idea, but have no courage to add one, because I just feel our deck mulligan a lot, if we have only 5 or 6 opener, I doubt "Gemstone Caverns" effect exile one additional cards may hurt the combo... I don't know, it's just basing on several goldfishing tests.
9, Nature's Claim: Scout helps us play lands in instant speed, then I guess we may surprise opponent to use an instant answer. I don't really like "Seal of Primordium", which remind the opponent "Hey, I have answers to your artifact and enchantment, please be careful"... Although the 4 additional life may be a problem.
10, I don't use Melira, because I feel Infect is still a very bad match up even if we add in 1 Melira... Instead, "Chalice of the Void" response to many decks, so I feel it's more worthwhile for one sideboard position.
11, 1 Thragtusk is not enough, we need at least 2 to fight Burn..
12, I use 0 Leyline of Sanctity, because I don't think we have many cards to replace during sideboarding, losing any combo components (including SSG) means slowing down... Speed is always the life of this deck.
I feel Chalice is not good here, considering I have no SSG in my deck, turn-2 Chalice looks not so charming.
After the reading, my new thought of sideboard maybe:
-1 Cavern, -1 Bog, -2 Relic, -1 Ballista
+1 Baloth, +1 Thragtusk, +1 Queen, +1 Rec Sage (vs Eidolon) +1 EE
Sometimes I feel K-return like a dead card in this game... And I wish I can keep Pact of Negation to deal with Deflecting Palm. I don't know whether I can board in Ruric Thar, seems it's too slow... I guess the key point of this game is adding some life as soon as possible...
Another question, I wish to hear your sideboard suggestion facing Naya Zoo, such as http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116677 . I felt I'm busy with killing their creatures and worrying the burn at the same time, so stressful...
As reference, following is my list:
1 Walking Ballista
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4 Primeval Titan
Spells:19
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Amulet of Vigor
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Explore
Lands:28
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boros Garrison
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Gruul Turf
1 Khalni Garden
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
3 Tolaria West
1 Vesuva
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Hornet Queen
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swan Song
2 Dismember
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Tectonic Edge
Thanks~
I may leave Modern for a while, because the coming GP Beijing on 16th April is Limited. Have good luck for your Sunday game!
I agree Wolf Run is not a must-have, we generate enough threat when we still have access to Titan but without Wolf Run. If I feel the game could become long enough that I may run out of all the 4 Titans, then I guess sideboard in one Thragtusk as backup threat is enough. And as you said, we can +2/+0 and double-strike the tokens. In contrast, the 2nd Vesuva surely is a must-have, it provides so much flexibility. As a word, if I have space I'd love to add 1 Wolf Run but the fact is no...
After unbannings, I agree we have to pay more attention on counters. I guess I will mainboard the Cavern of Souls and sideboard Ghost Quarter, and add 1 Swan Song and drop the 2nd Stony Silence. I will add Melira in but haven't made a decision for what to replace, I guess I will drop the 3rd Nature's Claim but reserve the Temple of Mystery. I feel Temple of Mystery sometimes help me gather all combo components 1 turn earlier. I feel possibly it's important as a filter because we have no space for any Sleight of Hand after the Bloom ban now... In my situation, I guess the mainboard war is Ghost Quarter vs Temple of Mystery, both of them help nothing on turn-1 scout...
I agree with your thoughts, here is some of my understanding:
5, At first, I think I need 1 U-pact to protect Titan, and the second one to work with Hive Mind. However, I realize that we have only 1 Hive Mind now... So I feel 1 U-pact instead of 2 is ok if we need space for 4/3 settings of Azusa/SSG.
8, I did some goldfishing today, and totally agree Gemstone Caverns worth at least 1. I feel about 1/4 of the chance it help us one turn faster (sometimes turn-2 titan!) , and I nearly never miss the original 3rd RG-Bounce. I guess if we mull to 5, then we can choose to consider it as a normal land and do not exile another card, right?
9, How many Claim should be sideboard in when we fight burn? I'd like to know your suggestion.
10, When I have time, I'll test the match up further through VPT vs Infect with the help of Melira. I can't make sure whether I should simply abandon Infect game...
And a question to ask:
* Do we need a Kessig Wolf Run? We have some 1/1, 1/2, 2/2(SSG) creatures and some 0/1 plants now, how about we add the Wolf Run in to help them attack?
Hi daviusminimus, I found my list is very similar to your choice. I'd like to share my thinking although those are just small pieces.
When the ban of Bloom occur, I think the main object of this deck is to land a titan no later than the turn-4. So I use "Journey of Discovery" or "Pentad Prism" to replace Bloom (more difficult to disturb than creature engine), and usually I can have a turn-4 titan even if I have no amulet. However, after some local FNM games, I found this way is weak by two reasons: 1, turn-4 titan without amulet can't attack, so this is in fact a turn-5 attacking situation, which is too slow in Modern meta; 2, if the first turn-4 titan is killed, usually I have no enough mana source to land the second one in the next turn. Then I feel the main object should be: try to land a titan in turn 3 and no later than turn 4, and keeping enough mana source for titan chain.
Then the only answer is "Amulet + ability of landing multi bouncelands", then I realized that "Sakura-Tribe Scout" is the real replacement for Bloom. When we have Amulet, Scout can help us provide 4 more mana than last turn, and Azusa provide 6, which is usually enough to pay for pact and land another titan the same turn.
Thanks to the discussions here, I forge my deck as following. Although I just get 2-2 in a local store game yesterday (If I attacked with both my titan and Thragtusk, I could beat my 3rd round Naya Burn opponent... It's a silly mistake...), I feel the deck is strong again, it is fast enough to threat opponents although it's one turn slower than the old version.
3 Ancient Stirrings
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Boros Garrison
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Gruul Turf
1 Hive Mind
1 Khalni Garden
2 Pact of Negation
4 Primeval Titan
1 Radiant Fountain
3 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Serum Visions
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
3 Tolaria West
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Firespout
1 Hornet Queen
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Stony Silence
2 Thragtusk
Here is some discussion of my thinking:
1, 3 Scouts: I want a turn-1 Scout to speed up, so 2 Scouts maybe too less. But it affects only the next turn after landing in and so fragile, then I think 4 Scouts is too much...
2, 3 Azusa: It's Legendary, I feel 2 or more Azusa in opener seems stupid but it is our most powerful land engine...
3, 2 Simian Spirit Guide: Titan will landing one turn earlier, which is **super important** after the ban. However, it is a one-time mana engine, it speed up the first titan but helps nothing for the second one. So I feel 2 SSG is enough.
4, 1 Hive Mind: Hive Mind in opener like a dead card since the ban slow us one turn, I REALLY REALLY don't want 2 Hive Minds in opener and 0 Mind in opener is better. However, I don't mind reserve a small possibility to have a powerful plan B.
5, 2 Pact of Negation: I just feel only 1 Blue pact is not enough to protect the titans...
6, 1 Slaughter Pact: Hmm, the reason is Spellskite...
7, 4 Serum Visions + 3 Ancient Stirrings: Amulet is super important, but Amulet is not always the lacking piece for our combo, so I prefer Serum Visions (digging for 3 depth is enough for most situation) over Ancient Stirrings. I feel 2 or 3 Ancient Stirrings is enough.
8, I really like the "Gemstone Caverns" idea, but have no courage to add one, because I just feel our deck mulligan a lot, if we have only 5 or 6 opener, I doubt "Gemstone Caverns" effect exile one additional cards may hurt the combo... I don't know, it's just basing on several goldfishing tests.
9, Nature's Claim: Scout helps us play lands in instant speed, then I guess we may surprise opponent to use an instant answer. I don't really like "Seal of Primordium", which remind the opponent "Hey, I have answers to your artifact and enchantment, please be careful"... Although the 4 additional life may be a problem.
10, I don't use Melira, because I feel Infect is still a very bad match up even if we add in 1 Melira... Instead, "Chalice of the Void" response to many decks, so I feel it's more worthwhile for one sideboard position.
11, 1 Thragtusk is not enough, we need at least 2 to fight Burn..
12, I use 0 Leyline of Sanctity, because I don't think we have many cards to replace during sideboarding, losing any combo components (including SSG) means slowing down... Speed is always the life of this deck.
Thanks a lot for warm and nice discussion here~~