Updates: They are dealing with issues around drops (of 4,000+ players, this is a big deal).
As of 11:20am they are readying round 1. They basically made a round 0 to sift through hundreds of "sign ups and drop" situations. Features on camera and "in coverage" will start round 1. Features should be good to go. They have like 4 feature tables.
There's more combo here than anticipated. If grinders and last chance qualifiers signal anything, it's that dredge and enchantress type "lower tier combo" will be out in droves. This is my immediate observation through most of today
I don't think Humility is fast enough in Maverick and I am a turn faster than DnT in the mana department to muscle one out. I too am curious about EE because the UR delver + miracles matchups have been horrendous for me.
@redtwister:
Honestly, if you like the SB for the serious final list you posted I'd run out a CJ and call it a day. Personally, I think you can do better than Harm's way. Both Sunlance and PTE act as better spot removal. If EE is strong (awaiting a response from someone on this, see above), I could see you pulling bomb + harm for 2 EE and running a CJ or WLL as the final spot. I think WLL in the 75 is a must. It stops lots of sweepers
That's an interesting SB strategy. I usually keep Fire/Ice, as Pro-red is very important (usually being the way I push through them). Strapping Fire/Ice on Thalia or Canonist is basically GG right there. Additionally, I am unsure if pulling Sylvans are the correct call. I usually enjoy having a free Sensei's top filter for relevant cards. I've been able to find answers against burn when needed. Usually, I'm able to nab a key piece of removal or that needed QPM. As for 'Geddon, there's a high degree of risk there. I am not sure I agree there
For Burn, I basically take out anything that's too slow. Fire/Ice can be really slow, strapping it on Thalia or Canonist and you're already turn 4 (SFM) or 5 range...or rather, dead. Sylvans are the same, they basically filter one or two draws before I'm dead, meanwhile turn 2 they're beating with Goblin Guide again and dropping Eidolon.
What do you take out?
Depends what I pack. If I run with Leylines and Canonists (feeling this will be a good call for the GP to make it through day 1 and budget burn decks)
+3 Leyline (your odds go up considerably)
+2 Canonist (at worst, she's a pin-cushion. at best, she slows their game down)
-1 Teeg (only stops fireblast)
-1 or 2 Sylvan
-1 equipment (usually consider keeping Fire/Ice but if I'm running batterskull or light/shadow, the lifegain is be more important)
-1 KotR (shave down to 3)
-1 wasteland or DD (I typically shave a waste because of all their basics. I've assembled the combo a handful of times quickly enough to insta-kill them prior to them dealing lethal. If I won G1, I consider dropping the DD instead and working to win behind a wall of protection)
Again, this is if I run Leyline. I lived the dream a month ago where I turn 0 leyline --> t1 mom (burned) --> t2 thalia (burned) --> t3 KotR + stage --> DD/Stage combo-ing. I'm also not afraid to swords my own guys if it mathematically buys me extra time. Luck is a HUGE factor in the burn matchup and I try to appease the topdeck Gods as much as I can.
I've been testing the Kor for the burn matchup, using a typical mono-red burn list.
Burn:
+2 Kor Firewalker
+3 Thoughtseize (will become 2 Duress, 1 Thoughtseize)
-2 Something?
-1 Sword Fire and Ice
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Scryb Ranger
-2 Sylvan Library
+2 Armageddon
The Firewalker is good until they get a Vortex down, and then I need to burn Qasali on it - if I haven't burned it on an Eidolon yet. This plus a miracles heavy meta makes me lean towards Decays mainboard.
I think Firewalker will be better over CoP:Red for the droves of UR Delver because it can block Swiftspear all day long and it takes the edge off of their burn. CoP:Red can do that as well but Delver is already taxing our mana with Daze and being much faster in general, while they can just flood out with Pyro tokens or smash with Delver.
The COP Red + ETutor is nice, but not better than 2x Firewalker since it's still one of two cards you need to find. Obviously you can still run more beats like Chains and Canonist (and Courser!) for other matches but the board looks pretty tight to me. It's also good if Elves runs Progentius, but I think if they fire off a Natural Order without Priest then we've already lost.
--
I like the concept of Courser. Defensive, bolt resistant, nice life gain, and it smooth your draws. You can also use it with Knight to get some extra life points.
That's an interesting SB strategy. I usually keep Fire/Ice, as Pro-red is very important (usually being the way I push through them). Strapping Fire/Ice on Thalia or Canonist is basically GG right there. Additionally, I am unsure if pulling Sylvans are the correct call. I usually enjoy having a free Sensei's top filter for relevant cards. I've been able to find answers against burn when needed. Usually, I'm able to nab a key piece of removal or that needed QPM. As for 'Geddon, there's a high degree of risk there. I am not sure I agree there
Hypothetically--is there anything wrong with only running 1-3 Leylines in the side? Assuming you did run them, do they *have* to be a 4 of?
They have to be 3-4x. I would run 3 in place of 3 discard, as "anti-spell/combo" is what I categorize both under. 1-2 is silly because you need the leyline turn 0 in your hand. It's too inconsistent at 2x or less. Likewise, against burn, you may die before you naturally land it for 2WW.
A widely applicable anti-burn package looks like
2 Canonist
3 Leyline/Discard
1 Ooze #2 (if not in MD)
If you're lucky, you can keep some combination of Canonist/Ooze/Thalia/DRS (lifegain) on the table to get out of lethal range quickly. THey lose to lifegain and disruption of spells. If you live the dream with this package, you can turn 0 leyline on top of hate-bear them out. Hard part is pulling irrelevant pieces, as I try to keep all live cards.
@s3raphix: Derp. Shows you how ready for Legacy I am right now lol. Idk why I was thinking Helm and Grindstone read something like "your opponent" rather than "target player". Hmm...I'll let the inner debate rage on with Leyline.
s3raphix:
Honestly, I am debating the need for Leyline of Sanctity. I feel that card may help me push past droves of burn and combo. The card hoses burn, as they have no clock outside of creatures to kill you (plus at some point you stabilize as they can't nuke all your men AND lethal you fast enough). The downside is that Leyline cuts into my thoughtseize/IoK/duress/Teeg/Canonist slots + don't disrupt Sneak/Show, Reanimator, Enchantress, Painter, etc that need [insert card]. That's where a dedicated discard trumps. If I really feared combo I suppose I could go with both leyline and discard, but it would be sacrificing my odds against swarm (Zp, Deluge, spot removal, priest) and control (armageddon, O-ring) due to less SB space. I really hate COP Red as I feel it's a waste of space.
@Claymore: What have you tested Kor against? Burn or UR Delver? 2x is not enough? That sucks. If you go 3x, you might as well go Leylines for true protection or discard to be proactive.
@Burn: The killer lists run all the bolts, flame rift, price and blast. I usually die Turn 4 unless something ridiculous saves me (Thalia that sticks, Jitte, swords my own big KotR, Scooze + mana to gain life). If vortex hits and I'm down on life, my odds diminish significantly.
Herzog is on the record for the first time at TheSource. He's saying Courser of Kruphix is the key card to pickup right now. Some of my friends have actually informed me about this for the past 2 weeks and I didn't believe them. Courser is aggressively costed and provides CA if you can live the dream with Sylvan Library and/or getting topdeck lands.
Deluge is the best sweeper right now for us. It DOES create collateral damage for for something like UR Delver, you X = 2 and their entire board dies. Same for Elves. DnT and the mirror need x = 2+, depending upon what's on the board.
@GreenSun4Zero:
Council's has a tough WWx cost. It's not impossible, but is certainly harder to hit in 3 color Mav lists. I also think Witness's recursion > more guys. There are times like Miracles I want another [thing] on the table/in hand. Sometimes that item is equipment. Other times I want to have a body + grab a creature so STP/Jace won't be enough. For other matchups, I would benefit from recycling old removal a la swords/plow/zp/deluge. Witness grabbing anything is a really big deal.
I played a list that tested a lot of ideas and sub-ideas this past weekend. Was a horrible 1-4-0 in 5 rounds. I playtested on the side and talked with nearly everyone about GPNJ.
Key findings:
Maverick can contend, but a lot rides on the luck of 1) your pairings and 2) your ability to pull decent opening hands. I had neither going for me Saturday. Opened the event mulling to 4 (no lands on 7, 6, or 5) --- and stalling on 1 land thereafter. Bottomline, these kind of "you've got to be kidding me" horror situations will derail any of us playing at an event. I will fine-tune my list to be more "basic" and aligned with what maverick wants. I stupidly tried 3x Thalia and never saw her outside of a last-few-turns scenario against UWR control.
Eternal Witness is really needed. I lost games to everybody because I couldn't create card advantage beyond Sylvan Library. I had moments where GSZ on 3 for Witness would have gave me back the game and/or protected positive board-state. She may be the bullet I've been looking for. She can also fit into the QPM/Scooze "flex slots"
If expecting UR Delver, 2:2 with QPM/Scooze. Expecting more Miracles, go 3:1 in favor of QPM.
I ran this SB
2 Armageddon -- was ok
3 Thoughtseize -- never used it, but did bring it in against elves
1 Decay -- was alright. This should be a PTE
2 ZP -- crushing. I think I need a 3rd again
2 Toxic Deluge -- crushing
2 Krosan Grip -- never saw them against miracles
1 Gaddock Teeg -- Papa never lets me down. Totally the right call given the meta.
2 Containment Priest -- Irrelevant with what I faced. Never relevant/saw it in time against Elves
I could only pick up 2x Containment Priests (was told I could grab a playset but then the store had only 2 remaining). These did nothing against matchups I faced: Elves (was irrelevant whole match), Jund Combo Loam, Miracles, UWR Control (very similar to Miracles), UR Delver. I will need to hear about other players' experiences with the card. If I face the mirror, DnT, Reanimator, Sneak/Show they will be great.
I played 1x Abrupt Decay in the Main. Although it was relevant all day, it felt like a waste of space. QPM #3 in the main would have done more. I also ran 4 equipment (again, trying out things)...Sword of Fire/Ice and Light/Shadow were the most relevant. Color protection trumps all, even Batterskull.
2x Slyvan makes a huge difference. Having the ability to pay life for more cards = seals games. Fixing your draw is also very important.
Moving forward, I am very nervous about Miracles. I had awful draws, some misplays (see: rust), and lots of irrelevancy. I think some form of card advantage and/or recursion is necessary to have any chance. UW players were both running Karanos (UR god) as a finisher. I have no way to deal with this thing. This is making me want to run Oblivion Ring as some kind of answer instead of Containment Priest. O-Ring is less valuable but still strong against Sneak-Show and Renaimator....but can bail me out of "holy crap there's a permanent I can't deal with" situations. Elves also "just crushes me randomly" if I cannot stop them in time. The elves matchup is frustrating.
I'm about 100% on the maindeck, as I much prefer the consistency to the situational nature of 1-ofs. I am however, not sure on the SB. I took out Wilt-leaf Liege simply because there aren't many Jund or BG decks running hymns and Lilis. I'm not sure on the Pithing needle, since I think it should possibly be an E Tutor, though I feel as though most of what I'm bringing E Tutor in for is to get a cage or RIP effect, which in most situations, Containment priest addresses. I am tempted to add 2 Kor Firewalker to the board, but I'm not sure on what to trim.
I really like this list. The only things I question are in the SB, but I'm with you on "I expect less Jund and BG stuff".
I would consider dropping a containment priest unless you're really on that train (I'm yet to play with her at all). I would cut a GY card (redundancy through Priest) for another Canonist or a lone WLL. Whether you drop cage or a RIP or a Priest is up to you.
I'm torn on how to improve my manabase. A friend said not playing 8-10 fetches nowadays in "doing it wrong". I'm not exactly sure if he's correct or not. I just don't want to ruin a good thing in a manabase that's more or less been there for me + I have nightmares running off 2 black sources (ie; cutting bayou #2 or scrubs #1) will be more detrimental to the gameplan. Ideally, I somehow keep DD/Stage, 8 fetches, 3 black duals. No idea what to cut. Mana hasn't really changed since the summer.
Concerning Containment Priest...
Agree with DudeItsCorey that it isn't as good against elves as it might seem. It's just a Gaddock Teeg you can't GSZ for (stops all the same cards). Containment Priest is probably fine against Dredge, Reanimator, Show & Tell, etc. IF you get to turn two before they have their fatty in play. If they don't have Griselbrand, Elesh Norn or Emrakul already out, then our previous hate (Karakas, DRS/Ooze, etc.) is probably good enough regardless. I don't know that for Maverick she'll be worth a couple spots in the 75. This argument would change if we were discussing Death & Taxes, though.
I am all over this card. I think it's a 2-3x in the 75 as the meta shifts with Comm-14. The card fights dredge, reanimator, and vial while also being a generally solid 2/2 flash creature. I agree it's not doing anything we don't already do against Elves, but I've always been a fan of "this card is applicable in several matchups". I have a lot of stuff in my lists I generally remove from Elves. I would love to be over-prepared when facing them (as the matchup is unfavorable for Maverick in general). Priest is problematic for the mirror + DnT and you can't discredit that.
Concerning Armageddon...
I am in concurrence with most in this forum that Armageddon is a great spell vs Miracles, Lands, 12 post, and other slow decks, but it costs 4 mana... or 5 with Thalia... or uncastable with a Teeg out (which is Gameplan #1 against Miracles anyways). I've always run 3 Chokes in the sideboard and have been very please with their application against Miracles, and more importantly, the large majority of the field. A great card if resolved against Delver decks. Not saying Choke is strictly better, but just providing a counter opinion...
It's been my observations and experiences that led me away from Choke. It just doesn't do enough. Once upon a time, landing Choke was GG. Now, we face decks with DRS + severalways to remove the enchantment. Even when choke is good, you risk being timewalked. We also face decks that burn through the final points of damage and/or play around choke. Even against UR delver, you better be hitting them with the card early. They generate too much value throughout the game to be truly impacted. We also have to contend with a UWx control deck that needs whitemana more than it needs blue. I've had choke not be enough in the past year or so to move away from it. I embrace Armageddon as a legitimate threat to long grindy decks. You mention it yourself -- Lands, Miracles, Post -- but also Nic Fit, grindy SFM decks...they all need oodles of mana to operate. I also die miserably against long grindy decks
Body and Mind, although capable of fueling TC, needs a bigger discussion. I'd be willing to run it over batter skull if the room had enough U/G in it. You friggin mill them for 10 and make a wolf. A decent chunk of that mill will be business spells, threats, and mana. For the time being, I am sticking to batter skull or light/shadow. Don't bash body and mind though. It can do a world of damage. The deck would probably need Murray crusaders to take advantage of equipment with blowout triggers
As of 11:20am they are readying round 1. They basically made a round 0 to sift through hundreds of "sign ups and drop" situations. Features on camera and "in coverage" will start round 1. Features should be good to go. They have like 4 feature tables.
I don't think Humility is fast enough in Maverick and I am a turn faster than DnT in the mana department to muscle one out. I too am curious about EE because the UR delver + miracles matchups have been horrendous for me.
@redtwister:
Honestly, if you like the SB for the serious final list you posted I'd run out a CJ and call it a day. Personally, I think you can do better than Harm's way. Both Sunlance and PTE act as better spot removal. If EE is strong (awaiting a response from someone on this, see above), I could see you pulling bomb + harm for 2 EE and running a CJ or WLL as the final spot. I think WLL in the 75 is a must. It stops lots of sweepers
Depends what I pack. If I run with Leylines and Canonists (feeling this will be a good call for the GP to make it through day 1 and budget burn decks)
+3 Leyline (your odds go up considerably)
+2 Canonist (at worst, she's a pin-cushion. at best, she slows their game down)
-1 Teeg (only stops fireblast)
-1 or 2 Sylvan
-1 equipment (usually consider keeping Fire/Ice but if I'm running batterskull or light/shadow, the lifegain is be more important)
-1 KotR (shave down to 3)
-1 wasteland or DD (I typically shave a waste because of all their basics. I've assembled the combo a handful of times quickly enough to insta-kill them prior to them dealing lethal. If I won G1, I consider dropping the DD instead and working to win behind a wall of protection)
Again, this is if I run Leyline. I lived the dream a month ago where I turn 0 leyline --> t1 mom (burned) --> t2 thalia (burned) --> t3 KotR + stage --> DD/Stage combo-ing. I'm also not afraid to swords my own guys if it mathematically buys me extra time. Luck is a HUGE factor in the burn matchup and I try to appease the topdeck Gods as much as I can.
That's an interesting SB strategy. I usually keep Fire/Ice, as Pro-red is very important (usually being the way I push through them). Strapping Fire/Ice on Thalia or Canonist is basically GG right there. Additionally, I am unsure if pulling Sylvans are the correct call. I usually enjoy having a free Sensei's top filter for relevant cards. I've been able to find answers against burn when needed. Usually, I'm able to nab a key piece of removal or that needed QPM. As for 'Geddon, there's a high degree of risk there. I am not sure I agree there
They have to be 3-4x. I would run 3 in place of 3 discard, as "anti-spell/combo" is what I categorize both under. 1-2 is silly because you need the leyline turn 0 in your hand. It's too inconsistent at 2x or less. Likewise, against burn, you may die before you naturally land it for 2WW.
A widely applicable anti-burn package looks like
2 Canonist
3 Leyline/Discard
1 Ooze #2 (if not in MD)
If you're lucky, you can keep some combination of Canonist/Ooze/Thalia/DRS (lifegain) on the table to get out of lethal range quickly. THey lose to lifegain and disruption of spells. If you live the dream with this package, you can turn 0 leyline on top of hate-bear them out. Hard part is pulling irrelevant pieces, as I try to keep all live cards.
Honestly, I am debating the need for Leyline of Sanctity. I feel that card may help me push past droves of burn and combo. The card hoses burn, as they have no clock outside of creatures to kill you (plus at some point you stabilize as they can't nuke all your men AND lethal you fast enough). The downside is that Leyline cuts into my thoughtseize/IoK/duress/Teeg/Canonist slots + don't disrupt Sneak/Show, Reanimator, Enchantress, Painter, etc that need [insert card]. That's where a dedicated discard trumps. If I really feared combo I suppose I could go with both leyline and discard, but it would be sacrificing my odds against swarm (Zp, Deluge, spot removal, priest) and control (armageddon, O-ring) due to less SB space. I really hate COP Red as I feel it's a waste of space.
@Claymore: What have you tested Kor against? Burn or UR Delver? 2x is not enough? That sucks. If you go 3x, you might as well go Leylines for true protection or discard to be proactive.
@Burn: The killer lists run all the bolts, flame rift, price and blast. I usually die Turn 4 unless something ridiculous saves me (Thalia that sticks, Jitte, swords my own big KotR, Scooze + mana to gain life). If vortex hits and I'm down on life, my odds diminish significantly.
Herzog is on the record for the first time at TheSource. He's saying Courser of Kruphix is the key card to pickup right now. Some of my friends have actually informed me about this for the past 2 weeks and I didn't believe them. Courser is aggressively costed and provides CA if you can live the dream with Sylvan Library and/or getting topdeck lands.
@GreenSun4Zero:
Council's has a tough WWx cost. It's not impossible, but is certainly harder to hit in 3 color Mav lists. I also think Witness's recursion > more guys. There are times like Miracles I want another [thing] on the table/in hand. Sometimes that item is equipment. Other times I want to have a body + grab a creature so STP/Jace won't be enough. For other matchups, I would benefit from recycling old removal a la swords/plow/zp/deluge. Witness grabbing anything is a really big deal.
Key findings:
Maverick can contend, but a lot rides on the luck of 1) your pairings and 2) your ability to pull decent opening hands. I had neither going for me Saturday. Opened the event mulling to 4 (no lands on 7, 6, or 5) --- and stalling on 1 land thereafter. Bottomline, these kind of "you've got to be kidding me" horror situations will derail any of us playing at an event. I will fine-tune my list to be more "basic" and aligned with what maverick wants. I stupidly tried 3x Thalia and never saw her outside of a last-few-turns scenario against UWR control.
Eternal Witness is really needed. I lost games to everybody because I couldn't create card advantage beyond Sylvan Library. I had moments where GSZ on 3 for Witness would have gave me back the game and/or protected positive board-state. She may be the bullet I've been looking for. She can also fit into the QPM/Scooze "flex slots"
If expecting UR Delver, 2:2 with QPM/Scooze. Expecting more Miracles, go 3:1 in favor of QPM.
I ran this SB
2 Armageddon -- was ok
3 Thoughtseize -- never used it, but did bring it in against elves
1 Decay -- was alright. This should be a PTE
2 ZP -- crushing. I think I need a 3rd again
2 Toxic Deluge -- crushing
2 Krosan Grip -- never saw them against miracles
1 Gaddock Teeg -- Papa never lets me down. Totally the right call given the meta.
2 Containment Priest -- Irrelevant with what I faced. Never relevant/saw it in time against Elves
I could only pick up 2x Containment Priests (was told I could grab a playset but then the store had only 2 remaining). These did nothing against matchups I faced: Elves (was irrelevant whole match), Jund Combo Loam, Miracles, UWR Control (very similar to Miracles), UR Delver. I will need to hear about other players' experiences with the card. If I face the mirror, DnT, Reanimator, Sneak/Show they will be great.
I played 1x Abrupt Decay in the Main. Although it was relevant all day, it felt like a waste of space. QPM #3 in the main would have done more. I also ran 4 equipment (again, trying out things)...Sword of Fire/Ice and Light/Shadow were the most relevant. Color protection trumps all, even Batterskull.
2x Slyvan makes a huge difference. Having the ability to pay life for more cards = seals games. Fixing your draw is also very important.
Moving forward, I am very nervous about Miracles. I had awful draws, some misplays (see: rust), and lots of irrelevancy. I think some form of card advantage and/or recursion is necessary to have any chance. UW players were both running Karanos (UR god) as a finisher. I have no way to deal with this thing. This is making me want to run Oblivion Ring as some kind of answer instead of Containment Priest. O-Ring is less valuable but still strong against Sneak-Show and Renaimator....but can bail me out of "holy crap there's a permanent I can't deal with" situations. Elves also "just crushes me randomly" if I cannot stop them in time. The elves matchup is frustrating.
I really like this list. The only things I question are in the SB, but I'm with you on "I expect less Jund and BG stuff".
I would consider dropping a containment priest unless you're really on that train (I'm yet to play with her at all). I would cut a GY card (redundancy through Priest) for another Canonist or a lone WLL. Whether you drop cage or a RIP or a Priest is up to you.
I am all over this card. I think it's a 2-3x in the 75 as the meta shifts with Comm-14. The card fights dredge, reanimator, and vial while also being a generally solid 2/2 flash creature. I agree it's not doing anything we don't already do against Elves, but I've always been a fan of "this card is applicable in several matchups". I have a lot of stuff in my lists I generally remove from Elves. I would love to be over-prepared when facing them (as the matchup is unfavorable for Maverick in general). Priest is problematic for the mirror + DnT and you can't discredit that.
It's been my observations and experiences that led me away from Choke. It just doesn't do enough. Once upon a time, landing Choke was GG. Now, we face decks with DRS + several ways to remove the enchantment. Even when choke is good, you risk being timewalked. We also face decks that burn through the final points of damage and/or play around choke. Even against UR delver, you better be hitting them with the card early. They generate too much value throughout the game to be truly impacted. We also have to contend with a UWx control deck that needs white mana more than it needs blue. I've had choke not be enough in the past year or so to move away from it. I embrace Armageddon as a legitimate threat to long grindy decks. You mention it yourself -- Lands, Miracles, Post -- but also Nic Fit, grindy SFM decks...they all need oodles of mana to operate. I also die miserably against long grindy decks