I dont follow standard at all, but I have heard many players say that The Haunt of Hightower is not a good card becuase it is only a 3/3 for 6 mana. But the 3 power enables Gruesome Menagerie to reanimate it, and Burglar Rat instantly makes it a 4/4, plus whatever simic 2/2 creature they print with +1/+1 counter synergies boosts the power even more.
Am I missing somthing here? Is Gruesome Menagerie just too slow? I just want to hear other people's opinions.
I like that you are asking without just outright slamming the card. It will not work with the menagerie but it could work with other reanimator effects and could do some work with a little protection. The problem is in standard, in particular, if you tap mana for a creature you want it to do something. 3 toughness in standard is softer than charmin and without hexproof or some other punishing effect for that cost, it will not live very long. Would have been nice to have, when this creature becomes a target of an ability an opponent controls, they discard a card or something. A nice 2 for one to go along with the +1 stuff or something. Can't be countered or hexproof would probably push him too much.
But for the most part, they'll just bolt/murder/price of fame/essence scatter/cancel it and you'll be out how ever much mana you spent to cast it.
Just my 2 cents on Standard, the design team and the bannings:
Energy as a mechanic:
I actually agree with most about the energy design as a mechanic. I feel that it is non-interactive, but having one card destroy a whole strategy makes a non enjoyable playing experience for the player who invested the resources to produce the energy. (similar to standard during theros with the "destroy all enchantment" cards floating around in an enchantment heavy set). I feel we are all about to see what a non-interactive standard environment with approach UW decks totally crushing standard. Time will tell.
Energy
IMHO, design created cards that self-enabled the mechanic and that is where they ran into problems. Should a card like attune exist that costs energy to search your deck for a land. Yes, that is in the green pie of things. Don't make it search for the land and gain the energy. That is the problem. Should hydra give energy and make itself hex-proof. No. Should refiner give energy and draw the cards. No. Should marvel give energy and produce the free cast on the card. Hell-no. Force players to build and balance energy producers and energy consumers in there. Not have cards that do both. Make it so an energy player is actively monitoring the amount of energy they have and choose scarcely what should and should not get energy for use (which I find hilarious in that most games, players have bucket loads of energy to the point where it is not relevant if an effect needs 3,4 or even 10+ energy).
Similarly, spread the mechanics better across all the colors or give each color a unique twist on the mechanic to actually make it worthwhile to play in different colors. What if They could have had a blue card say "pay x energy, counter target spell with cmc equal or less than the energy paid" or a black spell with "take x energy from target player, lose x life for each energy taken" or obvious is the "pay 2 energy and 1 life, draw a card". Green and red have effects that were, borderline broken with energy interactions. Blue had some but not to it's best strengths (typically, drawing and counter magic) and black and white, laughable.
Bannings
As for the "printing answers" and bannings, just bring back the core sets. The one where you could rely on a doom blade or murder reprint while dealing with the watered down versions of those same cards we get in the non-core sets (Ala essence extraction, never//return, etc). It also gives you a chance to put older tried and true format correcters (cards that essentially keep us all playing and coloring in the lines) back into standard. Let cards do what there respective colors dictate them to do. Why are indestructible and hex-proof being thrown around like candy on non god cards? Why has design been so traumatized after sphinx revelation and dig through time that they stopped printing respectable, borderline broken blue draw cards since? No answers is what gives us gideon mirror standards, snek marvel standards and snek/constrictor standards and too few answers also gives us sphinx revelations, ojutai and coming soon, approach of the second suns standards.
Also, for all that is holy, please, can someone from design please understand the difference in power level between instant and sorcery. Like, seriously. By giving creatures more effective and in most cases these days, efficient effects that push themselves with etb triggers, not having an instant answer (or in some colors cases, no answer whatsoever looking at you black with no answers to enchantments) to said creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker is problematic.
These rounds of bans will not fix the inherent problem in standard in that creatures do all the good stuff these days. Instants and sorceries are costed for limited/draft formats versus constructed (another issue I won't get into detail about) and the colors typically with the best creatures are green, white and red. Don't print instant win clauses on cards that trigger themselves. (Look at mechanized production versus approach of the second suns. One requires extensive deckbuilding to play, one can be shoved into any Wx control shell and tada).
In Conclusion
Trolling solution: print doom blade in every set. 95% of creatures die to doom blade. Except the hydra, hazoret, gideon, carnage tyrant and scarab god. O crap, even doom blade won't save us. Maybe we are just screwed.
Hey, I have some questions about Primal Amulet from the ixalan set. It reads:
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a charge counter on Primal Amulet. Then if there are four or more charge counters on it, you may remove those counters and transform it.
//
(Transforms from Primal Amulet.) Primal Wellspring
t: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. When that mana is spent to cast an instant or sorcery spell, copy that spell and you may choose new targets for the copy.
So, the questions are:
1.) If I make a copy of the Amulet using say Ms. Saheeli Rai or Mechanized Production and remove the counters to transform into the land, does Primal Amulet/Wellspring get sacrificed at the end of the turn?
2.) If I blink the land from play "somehow", does it return as the Primal Wellspring or does it return as the amulet?
3.) Finally, is there a set of rules for all dfc cards or is it individually for each card?
Thanks.
I think the most major problem I have with the card is the fact that,again, why isn't this an instant? If it has the potential to punish me, would it really have been too pushed to have this be instant speed?
I don't know, maybe I get a little too excited but I can see a couple key archetypes in standard that would appreciate a two of/SB of this. Id try it out first in G/B as a lockdown, deal with me before I obliterate your hand next turn kinda lock. Plus the protection offered with that color combination is very strong. The other is in a U/B shell as a finisher, especially vs a control mirror. Not the best piece of cardboard but I think it's got its uses
This video by CFB also touched on all the key points brought up here, especially the idea of Marvel turning Magic into roulette.
I think given how much [negative] attention Marvel is getting right now, the possible of a ban is quite high.
That's a problem for me personally. I don't want them to ban marvel just because people are crying about it. I want them to ban marvel because they themselves realize
1.) Barring counters (ala disallow) there's no stopping it once played (you are guaranteed one spin of the wheel) and 2.) It's powered by a repeatable abusive non-interactive element (energy). It's this standard, it's declined to a two player game of solitaire and roulette.
Also, if they did ban marvel, wouldn't we just go back to mardu, dyno tower and possibly zombies/gb being the three headed monsters again?
Last edit: would an ulamog ban in standard also curb the Marvel power?
I don't aim by 4. I aim by turn 5 or 6 basing and assume they will whiff the first time. Just put them in ballista range. If they don't whiff well there is nothing i could do. They are lucky.
And frankly woodweever puzzleknot is an horrible card by itself, the very idea of a paying 5 mana to gain 6 life is so inefficient that, as an aggro deck, I usually just sight and put another monster on the field. It is a speed bump.
I don't like the Temur marvel don't get me wrong, i just think the public outcry is a little exagerated, when you play the match and do the math. Or maybe i got tough skin. I played during splinter twin era in Modern, the Jeskai ascendensy and egg in modern too , Treasure cruise and Dig trough time in Modern and Legacy(Still shiver UR delver in legacy with treasure cruise).
So maybe my tolerance for broken deck is higher.
It is probably the best deck in standard that i'll give that to you. It got innevitability and some Highly variant nut draw. Is that goood enough for a ban? Based on power level i don't think so. Based on economic and people leaving standard(The sub 1000 tournament in montreal was an example of that, a lot of people pay 140 CAD for 10 draft instead of 100 CAD for the gp) , maybe.
Shifting a gears a little: Marvel aside from being a broken combo also doesn't align with the point of playing Magic.
Like in the Kotaku article and many other sources point out, including yourself, Marvel is more heavily based on luck. The game ends if there's a Ulamog when they spin the Marvel; even your strategy of beating Marvel relies on them whiffing the first time. Whenever the Marvel spins, the games outcome is at the mercy of fate. Of course there's always an element of luck in Magic, but not like this.
So even if you disagree that Marvel doesn't warrant a ban for being too broken, you should at the very least agree that it should be banned because it completely diverges from what Magic is supposed to be. Magic is supposed a game of strategy, anticipating your opponent's moves, and interactions. But when Marvel is the best deck, it all just comes down to luck. Everyone here goes to their local stores to play Magic, not roulette.
Great Post, I agree.
To add to the Marvel discussion, why was it not given a "sacrifice this artifact, pay 6 energy" clause like every other artifact with similar power levels. I think we may be approaching the point where wotc should consider limited lists or errata in standard.
Even with all the flicker effects in magic this combo is definitely beatable. Ramp isn't what it used to be. And there's a card that came out in eldritch moon called imprisoned in the moon. It turns a creature land or planeswalker into a colorless land. The best option against the combo would be that and then a land destruction spell. Or play a straight up destroy target permanent or a destroy target planeswalker spell. There are a few of those cards in standard right now. Imprisoned in the moon by itself isn't great but I definitely think it's one of the more overlooked control cards seeing as how much they're pushing planeswalkers currently. It's currently a .50 rare by tcgplayer prices but I could see it potentially going up after this pro tour. I could also see something similar happening to ruinous path even though it is a sorcery.
Imprisoned in the moon is great for Gideon, Liliana and the slow push to ultimate planeswalkers. But vs this combo, its hot garbage. 3 reasons:
1.) Enchantment speed
2.) Saheeli plays in U, can counter your imprisoned
3.) What good Saheeli player plays her before you go infinite and with no protection in hand???
I downplayed the combo oriinally but it's very viable. The only answer you have to a exile a resolved planeswalker before 7 mana is Unmaking (white). To the Slaughter is situational. Bounce effects just delay the infinite till there turn.
The problem is the lack of planeswalker removal spells and hard burn spells at instant that could kill
Tweaking your deck to beat the combo just means you have more dead cards in your hand vs aggro decks and vice versa. First turn game losses all around for control players it seems in standard.
Should start a separate topic: Things that can stop the combo dead on turn 4:
Authority of the Consuls, Talia, Anguished Unmaking, Queller, Countermagic, long road home (before saheeli drops), stasis snare, compelling deterrence, just the wind, sinister concoction, pick the brain, lost legacy, murder, any damage spell to the player at instant speed, ...
Hey everyone. I just wanted to have a discussion about Sweepers in the Standard Environment. I don't have the exact quote but I know one of the designers said there would be/shouldn't be anymore 4 cost sweep effects. However, with the current meta, I just wanted to get a discussion of what everyone else thought about why a 4 cost sweeper shouldn't be an option given there are so many ways creatures have of dodging the current sweepers in standard. The sweepers we have are unreliable and ineffective.
Given Languish rotated, I still don't see how it would be an effective sweeper in this current standard environment (artifact creatures, spirits, Blossiming Defense, Larger creatures at lower costs, Indesctructible, etc).
Fumigate does nothing vs artifacts and spirts, and it costs 3WW. It also is a prime target for an Avacyn negation or an indestructible activation.
Descend is good vs spirits but costs 4WW and most times will get countered.
Return to the Shore is obviously color locked but still not a shutdown sweeper.
Quarantine Zone is the "removes permanents but costs a ton" conditional sweeper.
Cata Gearhulk is the bulk pile sweeper.
In summary, with all the counters and "checks and balances" in place to protect creature based decks:
1.) What do you feel about the current sweepers (Fumigate, Descend, etc)?
2.) What do you feel would be an adequately powerful sweeper effect and at what cost/color?
3.) Should there be some effect to sweep away/control an opponents energy counters?
Thanks and I appreciate the feedback and love the community.
Hey Guys, long time lurker. First time posting. I'm considering running this for standard season (I skipped OGW and BFZ, was too meh to me) and I'd like to add to the convo. You guys are awesome with analysis and strategy.
Comments:
Call the Bloodline + Secure may not be as good when Sorin rotates but the lifelink on the token plus the buildup to Alley is a +.
May add some life gain to the sideboard and put some more catch alls in the main deck. Right now sideboard is just a testing ground for different versions of cards already in the main deck. I like the instant speed effects but recognize the sorcery removal (declaration in stone, angelic purge) is not to bad as well.
May run hard draw as opposed to reaping my own tokens, haven't fully tested the difference as of yet.
I like that you are asking without just outright slamming the card. It will not work with the menagerie but it could work with other reanimator effects and could do some work with a little protection. The problem is in standard, in particular, if you tap mana for a creature you want it to do something. 3 toughness in standard is softer than charmin and without hexproof or some other punishing effect for that cost, it will not live very long. Would have been nice to have, when this creature becomes a target of an ability an opponent controls, they discard a card or something. A nice 2 for one to go along with the +1 stuff or something. Can't be countered or hexproof would probably push him too much.
But for the most part, they'll just bolt/murder/price of fame/essence scatter/cancel it and you'll be out how ever much mana you spent to cast it.
Energy as a mechanic:
I actually agree with most about the energy design as a mechanic. I feel that it is non-interactive, but having one card destroy a whole strategy makes a non enjoyable playing experience for the player who invested the resources to produce the energy. (similar to standard during theros with the "destroy all enchantment" cards floating around in an enchantment heavy set). I feel we are all about to see what a non-interactive standard environment with approach UW decks totally crushing standard. Time will tell.
Energy
IMHO, design created cards that self-enabled the mechanic and that is where they ran into problems. Should a card like attune exist that costs energy to search your deck for a land. Yes, that is in the green pie of things. Don't make it search for the land and gain the energy. That is the problem. Should hydra give energy and make itself hex-proof. No. Should refiner give energy and draw the cards. No. Should marvel give energy and produce the free cast on the card. Hell-no. Force players to build and balance energy producers and energy consumers in there. Not have cards that do both. Make it so an energy player is actively monitoring the amount of energy they have and choose scarcely what should and should not get energy for use (which I find hilarious in that most games, players have bucket loads of energy to the point where it is not relevant if an effect needs 3,4 or even 10+ energy).
Similarly, spread the mechanics better across all the colors or give each color a unique twist on the mechanic to actually make it worthwhile to play in different colors. What if They could have had a blue card say "pay x energy, counter target spell with cmc equal or less than the energy paid" or a black spell with "take x energy from target player, lose x life for each energy taken" or obvious is the "pay 2 energy and 1 life, draw a card". Green and red have effects that were, borderline broken with energy interactions. Blue had some but not to it's best strengths (typically, drawing and counter magic) and black and white, laughable.
Bannings
As for the "printing answers" and bannings, just bring back the core sets. The one where you could rely on a doom blade or murder reprint while dealing with the watered down versions of those same cards we get in the non-core sets (Ala essence extraction, never//return, etc). It also gives you a chance to put older tried and true format correcters (cards that essentially keep us all playing and coloring in the lines) back into standard. Let cards do what there respective colors dictate them to do. Why are indestructible and hex-proof being thrown around like candy on non god cards? Why has design been so traumatized after sphinx revelation and dig through time that they stopped printing respectable, borderline broken blue draw cards since? No answers is what gives us gideon mirror standards, snek marvel standards and snek/constrictor standards and too few answers also gives us sphinx revelations, ojutai and coming soon, approach of the second suns standards.
Also, for all that is holy, please, can someone from design please understand the difference in power level between instant and sorcery. Like, seriously. By giving creatures more effective and in most cases these days, efficient effects that push themselves with etb triggers, not having an instant answer (or in some colors cases, no answer whatsoever looking at you black with no answers to enchantments) to said creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker is problematic.
These rounds of bans will not fix the inherent problem in standard in that creatures do all the good stuff these days. Instants and sorceries are costed for limited/draft formats versus constructed (another issue I won't get into detail about) and the colors typically with the best creatures are green, white and red. Don't print instant win clauses on cards that trigger themselves. (Look at mechanized production versus approach of the second suns. One requires extensive deckbuilding to play, one can be shoved into any Wx control shell and tada).
In Conclusion
Trolling solution: print doom blade in every set. 95% of creatures die to doom blade. Except the hydra, hazoret, gideon, carnage tyrant and scarab god. O crap, even doom blade won't save us. Maybe we are just screwed.
So, the questions are:
1.) If I make a copy of the Amulet using say Ms. Saheeli Rai or Mechanized Production and remove the counters to transform into the land, does Primal Amulet/Wellspring get sacrificed at the end of the turn?
2.) If I blink the land from play "somehow", does it return as the Primal Wellspring or does it return as the amulet?
3.) Finally, is there a set of rules for all dfc cards or is it individually for each card?
Thanks.
That's a problem for me personally. I don't want them to ban marvel just because people are crying about it. I want them to ban marvel because they themselves realize
1.) Barring counters (ala disallow) there's no stopping it once played (you are guaranteed one spin of the wheel) and 2.) It's powered by a repeatable abusive non-interactive element (energy). It's this standard, it's declined to a two player game of solitaire and roulette.
Also, if they did ban marvel, wouldn't we just go back to mardu, dyno tower and possibly zombies/gb being the three headed monsters again?
Last edit: would an ulamog ban in standard also curb the Marvel power?
Great Post, I agree.
To add to the Marvel discussion, why was it not given a "sacrifice this artifact, pay 6 energy" clause like every other artifact with similar power levels. I think we may be approaching the point where wotc should consider limited lists or errata in standard.
Imprisoned in the moon is great for Gideon, Liliana and the slow push to ultimate planeswalkers. But vs this combo, its hot garbage. 3 reasons:
1.) Enchantment speed
2.) Saheeli plays in U, can counter your imprisoned
3.) What good Saheeli player plays her before you go infinite and with no protection in hand???
I downplayed the combo oriinally but it's very viable. The only answer you have to a exile a resolved planeswalker before 7 mana is Unmaking (white). To the Slaughter is situational. Bounce effects just delay the infinite till there turn.
The problem is the lack of planeswalker removal spells and hard burn spells at instant that could kill
Tweaking your deck to beat the combo just means you have more dead cards in your hand vs aggro decks and vice versa. First turn game losses all around for control players it seems in standard.
Authority of the Consuls, Talia, Anguished Unmaking, Queller, Countermagic, long road home (before saheeli drops), stasis snare, compelling deterrence, just the wind, sinister concoction, pick the brain, lost legacy, murder, any damage spell to the player at instant speed, ...
Isn't Wandering Fumarole's ability still a mana ability since your still paying 0 mana. Paying 0 is still paying a mana ability.
Given Languish rotated, I still don't see how it would be an effective sweeper in this current standard environment (artifact creatures, spirits, Blossiming Defense, Larger creatures at lower costs, Indesctructible, etc).
Fumigate does nothing vs artifacts and spirts, and it costs 3WW. It also is a prime target for an Avacyn negation or an indestructible activation.
Descend is good vs spirits but costs 4WW and most times will get countered.
Return to the Shore is obviously color locked but still not a shutdown sweeper.
Quarantine Zone is the "removes permanents but costs a ton" conditional sweeper.
Cata Gearhulk is the bulk pile sweeper.
In summary, with all the counters and "checks and balances" in place to protect creature based decks:
1.) What do you feel about the current sweepers (Fumigate, Descend, etc)?
2.) What do you feel would be an adequately powerful sweeper effect and at what cost/color?
3.) Should there be some effect to sweep away/control an opponents energy counters?
Thanks and I appreciate the feedback and love the community.
This is what I'm running so far:
5 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Blighted Fen
4 Shambling Vent
Creatures
1 Silumgar Assassin
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
2 Relentless Dead
1 Elusive Tormentor
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Ob Nixllis Reignited
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Instants
3 Altar's Reap
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 To the Slaughter
2 Celestial Flare
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Immolating Glare
Enchantments
2 Call the Bloodline
2 Angelic Purge
2 Complete Disregard
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Planar Outburst
2 To the Slaughter
1 Ultimate Price
Comments:
Call the Bloodline + Secure may not be as good when Sorin rotates but the lifelink on the token plus the buildup to Alley is a +.
May add some life gain to the sideboard and put some more catch alls in the main deck. Right now sideboard is just a testing ground for different versions of cards already in the main deck. I like the instant speed effects but recognize the sorcery removal (declaration in stone, angelic purge) is not to bad as well.
May run hard draw as opposed to reaping my own tokens, haven't fully tested the difference as of yet.