Not sure about it being so good in Twin mirrors. It's a very bad idea to cast twin into 3 open mana because they can just exarch to tap your target, then untap and twin their own. It does bypass spellskite's protection of the combo to an extent (but so does countermagic). It's certainly SB playable in multiple decks, but certainly won't unseat spellskite.
Probably at it's best in blue tron decks; both interacting meaningfully with fast decks and providing some defense.
hi guys...im actually building a rug twin...but i dont have the tarmogoyf...i have all the ur twin cards. so i was thinking to build the deck with 3 savage knuckblade and 3 ooze....instead of 4 tarmo and 2 ooze / 2 huntmaster..what do you think ? or is better with 3 ooze and 2 huntmaster and something more?
Tarmogoyf is what makes RUG worthwhile; nothing else even compares. You might try splashing white/black, or just stay U/R.
^ I will never feel the need to run Scalding Tarn. Flooded Strand and Bloodstained Mire fetch basics and Steam Vents just as well and for less $$, so that settles it for me. Looks like you're in the same boat
You can do ok with the new fetches, but I wouldn't say they fetch basics 'just as well' as Tarn. It's unquestionably the best fetch in this deck, even though it seldom actually matters.
Not liking the Swiftspear route, I would rather have counterspells. With that in mind, this deck runs a lot of sorceries these days so I was thinking about ways to make the timing more friendly and thought of Quicken. It cantrips for Delve, it's a spell for Pyromancer/Delver, and it better lets you use your mana if you hold up a Remand or something as you could hold up Remand but then if you don't need it EoT Quicken+Serum Visions or whatever.
Has anyone tried it lately?
Couple problems. First, your sorceries are pretty much all cost 1 in the first place, so you're not really saving much mana that would otherwise have gone to waste. Second is that a lot of what you're holding mana up to counter in the first place comes out at instant speed (Bolt/Path/Electrolyze/etc), so tapping out on their eot will end up with you eating the removal anyways.
Quicken does a few interesting things (you could delve fewer cards if you only had to keep one counter up, and you get a bit more versatility out of snapcaster), but it's low points might be too awkward. This deck actually does well running a lot of 1-ofs in the cantrips/cheap interaction category, so toss one into the mix and see what happens!
Played this a bit last night on mtgo, and the deck is just kinda absurd. I was trying out a bunch of weird random cards as 1-ofs, and it feels like you don't even need to worry about the best mix because you're pretty much just running a playset of Ancestrals.
One card that stood out as kinda nifty was Arc Trail. I tried one because I was short a forked bolt, but it's actually pretty good. It gets a lot of doublekills that forked bolt would miss (Flipped Delver+Snapcaster/Pyromancer/etc), and can do a lot against a spellskite.
Hey guys! I just started playtesting this deck yesterday because I really like the Treasure Cruise.
I know the white splash seems a bit off, but it's just something I'm trying out. I added Lightning Helix to the main. I added Path and Kataki to the sideboard.
I went the aggro route with no MD counterspells. I don't know if that is a mistake since I've never played this deck before. But I replaced them all with more burn.
Counterspells are kinda important, as mentioned above. Also the mirror would probably be hilariously one-sided when the opponent is freely resolving treasure cruises and yours get remanded. Also, the lightning helixes aren't bad, but they're more of a stabilization card, while gut shots are more all-in aggro. Having the two in the same deck is kinda an identity crisis.
Dunno about Erase/Demystify. Any time you're hitting your own enchantments it'll be the other way around. Hatching Plans is one of the biggest examples where Demystify would win, but there could be cases where blowing something of your own up is the only way to guarantee casting a delve spell next turn. I mean, those are slightly niche situations, but if the only opposing enchantments in the meta were in delveless decks I might lean towards Demystify.
To revisit an unanswered question I posted a few pages back: Do you guys find yourself casting Pestermite/Exarch in a predictable pattern? Meaning, casting them during upkeep if you are not looking to combo off vs. casting them EOT if you are going to combo off? (Obviously this mostly refers to empty boards)
The best time in general, regardless of whether you plan to combo, is EOT, since you usually want to leave countermagic/removal mana open. I will only really cast them upkeep if there's something I can prevent with a tap (e.g. stopping a Liliana or Pod), or during combat if I want to tap an attacker creature, or even main phase if untapping a land is important, but end step is the default.
Did you test against pod? can you give some advices? to me is a evry dificult match up, im thinking about anger of the gods because of this, but im no really sell on that card
You should change your mind on that card, I questioned it, but after a bit of play, it's pretty important for managing persisters/voice. In general for pod though, you need to be pretty fast with whatever you're doing, because they tend to have inevitability. Doesn't mean you need to combo win, fast could mean bolt into blood moon, or plenty of removal and snapcasters. Just avoid keep something like 4 lands+2 Ancient Grudge and a Keranos.
Anyone have any good plan against the jund match up? Im playing TARMOTWIN and im just getting beat left and right against it. Any help would be great. Thanks guys
It's always been miserable matchup. I'm on the fence whether Tarmo or UR twin is better, UR gets the one-sided blood moon, the goyfs help, but Jund has enough removal that they're only solid, not amazing. Halimar Depths, Tectonic Edge, and lighthouse are pretty solid. Liliana will quickly make the game unwinnable, so try to have a plan against her and hope they don't thoughtseize it away. I'm still not sure on sideboarding, but Land hate, possibly Spellskite, and any grindy cards like Keranos or Batterskull.
I've been testing Shadow of Doubt in the Seas slot... I like it. Really good against any deck running fetches, Pod, Tron... basically the only time it's "bad" is against Robots, but we have Electrolyze and Bolt for them.
(Even against Soul Sisters I was able to blow them out when they played Ranger of Eos. He definitely did not expect Shadow.)
The thing about Shadow of Doubt is that it can really hurt you once it's not a surprise. With spreading seas you can just toss it out there T2 whether they expect it or not and you're done with it. If they expect Shadow of Doubt, they can just sit on fetchlands, preventing a lot of countermagic or EOT action. If you have success though, go for it.
so with ptq season starting this weekend what is the general consensus? spreading seas? or the no spreadng seas version.
i also am on the fence of the lavamancer vs anger approach to deck building.
how is everyone else testing?
They aren't mutually exclusive, and largely serve different purposes. Grim lavamancer is much more playable in the main, while anger is pretty strictly a SB card. In most places where Anger and Lavamancer are both good, you just want to stabilize anyways, and having more tools to do so is great. As for spreading seas, I feel it's pretty far from being a permanent addition; it's just another tool to consider if you have a good metagame read.
A couple of new sideboard cards I am consider are Thassa and Master of Waves, probably as one-ofs each. Highly doubtful whether they are good enough though.
I almost never have anywhere near enough devotion to Master relevant, and scrying 1 per turn really isn't that big of an impact. Maybe it might be different if you went all in with 4 spreading seas...
- As Jon Finkel noted in his article on Storm, Misty Rainforest should get basic Island, because only Scalding Tarn can get basic mountain.
It's not that Misty should get basic island as much as that it should ideally be used before Tarn as it's ever so slightly less versatile. Although you could also argue the other way, in that cracking a Tarn before a Misty could make the opponent expect a Tarmogoyf. Extremely minor either way.
- I have noticed that I kind of want a Breeding Pool in the matchups where I have Ancient Grudge and Cryptic Command is relevant; Otherwise I have to get Stomping Ground and my three other lands on turn four all have to produce blue.
You can really go either way, I'm running Breeding Pool in my UR build at the moment. People used to run 1 of each (some still do), but having an extra basic island for Blood moon is generally better than the a second green source
I am looking for some advice on the sideboard. I only have 1 copy of Engineered Explosives and Batterskull at the moment. I could pick up another Engineered Explosives if it is worth having a second in the board. I saw the Sword of Feast and Famine on some list somewhere, I don't know that it actually makes any sense though. I put in Shatterstorm because I have no fetches to get the Stomping Ground for Ancient Grudge, I could alternatively put in Vandalblast or some other artifact hate. Not sure what else makes sense to put in, or if I should just put more copies of cards I already have in.
Also, any advice on the main deck would be great, I left Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to a single copy because I thought the mana might be difficult.
Way too many basic mountains. Given the lack of fetches, Cascade Bluffs would really help a lot, though they've spiked in price a bit more than I remember. You might consider Thought Scour; with it you could get away with playing 1-2 Halimar Depths, and Grim Lavamancer will absolutely need the help given the lack of fetches. You might also consider trying out the UR temple and Sleight of Hand.
For SB, Engineed explosives loses a lot without the option to hit 3. If you cranked up your basic island count a bit, you might be able to run Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles somewhere.
Well, could you be a bit more specific? What's UR Tempo good against where TarmoTwin lacks, and vice versa? Zoo isn't even a real deck nowadays
I'm still not completely up to modern, but UR has a bit more countermagic, better use of Blood Moon, and maybe better filtering. That probably converts to improved matchups against Tron, Scapeshift, Storm, and the Mirror. Tarmo-twin probably has the edge against most other decks, especially ones with Tarmogoyfs. I haven't played much tarmo-twin though, so I could be completely wrong.
Any specific suggestions on how to board in those matchups?
I would definitely take out 4 Remands against burn, their spells are too cheap for remand to really buy any time. Dispels and spellskites should come in, and maybe Batterskull if you decide to side out flame slash (would depend on their list). You don't want to side out Clique, a lot of burn games come down to turning men sideways.
I would consider finding room for negate in SB, it would probably do a lot for your living end matchup, and is pretty solid against burn too.
Probably at it's best in blue tron decks; both interacting meaningfully with fast decks and providing some defense.
Tarmogoyf is what makes RUG worthwhile; nothing else even compares. You might try splashing white/black, or just stay U/R.
You can do ok with the new fetches, but I wouldn't say they fetch basics 'just as well' as Tarn. It's unquestionably the best fetch in this deck, even though it seldom actually matters.
Might have been a niche possibility before Khans, but with Treasure Cruise, Murderous Cut, and Dig Through Time in the format, it'll be pretty much always just be Flying Men.
Couple problems. First, your sorceries are pretty much all cost 1 in the first place, so you're not really saving much mana that would otherwise have gone to waste. Second is that a lot of what you're holding mana up to counter in the first place comes out at instant speed (Bolt/Path/Electrolyze/etc), so tapping out on their eot will end up with you eating the removal anyways.
Quicken does a few interesting things (you could delve fewer cards if you only had to keep one counter up, and you get a bit more versatility out of snapcaster), but it's low points might be too awkward. This deck actually does well running a lot of 1-ofs in the cantrips/cheap interaction category, so toss one into the mix and see what happens!
One card that stood out as kinda nifty was Arc Trail. I tried one because I was short a forked bolt, but it's actually pretty good. It gets a lot of doublekills that forked bolt would miss (Flipped Delver+Snapcaster/Pyromancer/etc), and can do a lot against a spellskite.
Counterspells are kinda important, as mentioned above. Also the mirror would probably be hilariously one-sided when the opponent is freely resolving treasure cruises and yours get remanded. Also, the lightning helixes aren't bad, but they're more of a stabilization card, while gut shots are more all-in aggro. Having the two in the same deck is kinda an identity crisis.
Dunno about Erase/Demystify. Any time you're hitting your own enchantments it'll be the other way around. Hatching Plans is one of the biggest examples where Demystify would win, but there could be cases where blowing something of your own up is the only way to guarantee casting a delve spell next turn. I mean, those are slightly niche situations, but if the only opposing enchantments in the meta were in delveless decks I might lean towards Demystify.
The best time in general, regardless of whether you plan to combo, is EOT, since you usually want to leave countermagic/removal mana open. I will only really cast them upkeep if there's something I can prevent with a tap (e.g. stopping a Liliana or Pod), or during combat if I want to tap an attacker creature, or even main phase if untapping a land is important, but end step is the default.
You should change your mind on that card, I questioned it, but after a bit of play, it's pretty important for managing persisters/voice. In general for pod though, you need to be pretty fast with whatever you're doing, because they tend to have inevitability. Doesn't mean you need to combo win, fast could mean bolt into blood moon, or plenty of removal and snapcasters. Just avoid keep something like 4 lands+2 Ancient Grudge and a Keranos.
It's always been miserable matchup. I'm on the fence whether Tarmo or UR twin is better, UR gets the one-sided blood moon, the goyfs help, but Jund has enough removal that they're only solid, not amazing. Halimar Depths, Tectonic Edge, and lighthouse are pretty solid. Liliana will quickly make the game unwinnable, so try to have a plan against her and hope they don't thoughtseize it away. I'm still not sure on sideboarding, but Land hate, possibly Spellskite, and any grindy cards like Keranos or Batterskull.
The thing about Shadow of Doubt is that it can really hurt you once it's not a surprise. With spreading seas you can just toss it out there T2 whether they expect it or not and you're done with it. If they expect Shadow of Doubt, they can just sit on fetchlands, preventing a lot of countermagic or EOT action. If you have success though, go for it.
They aren't mutually exclusive, and largely serve different purposes. Grim lavamancer is much more playable in the main, while anger is pretty strictly a SB card. In most places where Anger and Lavamancer are both good, you just want to stabilize anyways, and having more tools to do so is great. As for spreading seas, I feel it's pretty far from being a permanent addition; it's just another tool to consider if you have a good metagame read.
I almost never have anywhere near enough devotion to Master relevant, and scrying 1 per turn really isn't that big of an impact. Maybe it might be different if you went all in with 4 spreading seas...
It's not that Misty should get basic island as much as that it should ideally be used before Tarn as it's ever so slightly less versatile. Although you could also argue the other way, in that cracking a Tarn before a Misty could make the opponent expect a Tarmogoyf. Extremely minor either way.
You can really go either way, I'm running Breeding Pool in my UR build at the moment. People used to run 1 of each (some still do), but having an extra basic island for Blood moon is generally better than the a second green source
Way too many basic mountains. Given the lack of fetches, Cascade Bluffs would really help a lot, though they've spiked in price a bit more than I remember. You might consider Thought Scour; with it you could get away with playing 1-2 Halimar Depths, and Grim Lavamancer will absolutely need the help given the lack of fetches. You might also consider trying out the UR temple and Sleight of Hand.
For SB, Engineed explosives loses a lot without the option to hit 3. If you cranked up your basic island count a bit, you might be able to run Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles somewhere.
Firespout is still a great card that everybody seems to forget exists.
I'm still not completely up to modern, but UR has a bit more countermagic, better use of Blood Moon, and maybe better filtering. That probably converts to improved matchups against Tron, Scapeshift, Storm, and the Mirror. Tarmo-twin probably has the edge against most other decks, especially ones with Tarmogoyfs. I haven't played much tarmo-twin though, so I could be completely wrong.
I would definitely take out 4 Remands against burn, their spells are too cheap for remand to really buy any time. Dispels and spellskites should come in, and maybe Batterskull if you decide to side out flame slash (would depend on their list). You don't want to side out Clique, a lot of burn games come down to turning men sideways.
I would consider finding room for negate in SB, it would probably do a lot for your living end matchup, and is pretty solid against burn too.