@rogue_LOVE I didn't mean to double it down by saying "No, it's not nonsense". I exaggerated with the numbers, as I said, I didn't do the math.
English is not my first language, and sometimes I don't express myself correctly. In my second post I intended to say that those numbers were not the important part of my statement, but I obviously failed in my clarification.
That been said, I still think that Narset is a valuable option for this deck and can get us a reasonable amount of cards to stay on advantage.
I didn't do the math, and honestly I don't want to. It's not nonsense, I have empiric experience with the deck, and I know for a fact that Narset draws A LOT.
If you don't like the card, don't play it. And move on
Wall of Omens vs Serum Vision: wall is more mana expensive, doesn't scry, can't be flashbacked/rebounded and dies to removal. We have Soul tokens to block on early game.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy: activates opponent's removal. Also, we prefer Snapcates due to instant speed flashbacks.
Jace, Architect of Thought: Is an option, but not the better one. Again, we have lingering souls, so his +1 is not that relevant for us. We have to use his -2 in order to draw something weakening him (vs Narset's +1) and he has a low starting loyalty.
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets/Ob Nixilis Reignited: These 5 CMC walkers are slow for this deck. Narset comes earlier. Protecting her doesn't have to be an issue with all the discard, removal and blockers we have.
Dovin Baan: I played him alongside Nasert some time ago. It's a fine option, but metagame dependent. He is good agaist midrange decks that have bigger creatures or utility ones instead of massive 1/1's or 2/2's.
Finaly Narset Transcendent herself: You usually will be using the +1, in my experience (4/5 months playing the deck) she draws a 70-80% of the time. Also, presents a clock that most people fear, and they will aggressively try to kill her. Letting you concentrate on controlling the board.
Latest versions of the deck (the ones that play Liliana) are cutting Narset or putting her on the sideboard. I think that is ok. She may be not the best option on this metagame. But still viable.
Think on Jeskai decks playing Ajani Vengeant, Gideon Jura, Jace Architect of Thought and Elspeth Sun's Champion. They are all good options depending on the metagame. I think this is what's going to happen with this deck. We have 5-7 PW slots in the deck that we can fill depending on personal and metagame choices, and for that I think our best options are:
Think that you have a lot of 1 cmc removal, and you can flashback them easily. But Wrath effects are me expensive to do that, and many times you want to have them in your hand rather than in your graveyard because of that.
I am delighted to see this list make a nice place.
Can you tell me how, according to you, Dylan Brown has his side plan for the games he played?
Sorry for my bad english
I want to progress on how to sider between each game according to the current match-up.
This is the sideboard guide that Dylan posted in the FB community
So before we get started sideboarding its important to understand a few things about the deck
1) we are a midrange deck.
2) as we are using 4 liliana, we dont really care about card advantage, its about card quality, and as a tapout deck, this is fine in conjunction with liliana
3) dont overboard if the matchup is already good, why fix it if its not broken?
4) if you choose to play other cards in your sideboard, go ahead! but make sure your cards come in for multiple purposes and matchups and arent just "i have a foil one" or "my friend won FNM with this one card one time"
ABZAN
this is actually close to a mirror, with Narset being the essential trump as it allows us to grind through more cards, while stranding removal in their hand they toss to lili
on the play, and draw is different, as lili goes down in stock on the draw
so play
- 2 Thoughtseize
-1 brutality
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Rest in Peace
on the draw -2 liliana over Thoughtseize
JUND
Similar to bazan, but not as much emphasis on graveyard. Keep it simple, dont get carried away
- 1 tseize
- 1 brutality
+ 1 flex (Disenchant if you feel they may have choke/night of souls betrayal or some random other permanent, otherwise keep the brutality MD
+ 1 baneslayer
GRIXIS DELVER
- 2 verdict
- 2 push
- 1 brutality
+ 1 dispel
+ 2 Countersquall
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Rest in Peace (hoses gurmags and kcommand engine enough im happy to sacrifice souls and my own snaps)
GRIXIS CONTROL
Aim your discard for their Counterspells/taisgur, force through liliana and the game is essentially over
- 3 push
- 2 verdict
+ 2 Countersquall
+ 1 dispel
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Banelsayer angel
JESKAI
almost exactly the same as grixis control, except be weary of SB Blood Moon, and we only care about their colonnades so path is out
affinity
- 2 liliana
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
lili looks garbage with so manay manlands, just be careful timing when to cast her
Deaths shadow
they have sideboard Lingering Souls, often lili is an edict, and then you rarely tick her up again, unless you have your own souls to counter theirs. the sb souls is really the only dealbreaker, so board in a surgical or 2.
BANTDRAZI
not much really changes tbh, drop when she is safe-ish( with smasher is anything safe?)
- 1 brutality
- 2 inquisition
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
+ 2 geist
BURN!!!!!
Yeah this feels terrifying but is randomly really easy. each lili tick up is gain 3 life
Been looking for a deck to settle on in Modern for over a year now. Tried a bunch of home brews and had some success but this list looks like some fun times. Going to start practicing with it soon on XMage.
Try to play 2-3 catch-all removal in the 75. 1/2 Anguished Unmaking and Runed Halo split is the recommended option, but can also try Detention Sphere and keep Engineered Explosives.
Sorin is less consistent if you don't play 4 Lingering Souls. You can cut Batterskull or the 3rd Narset (which is flex) to put the 4th LS
I've been building around Esper Delver and Midrange for a while, and I may put some brewing time into this shell. I keep trying to make an Esper Draw-Go that I can get behind, but the super low threat density always turns me off of it. Seems like this is a good starting place on a compromise. That, and I keep wanting to jam my Geist of Saint Trafts.
Question for you all: I know this is a tapout list, but what do you think of some number of Logic Knot? A control deck with this many cheap spells (and fetches of course) with no Tasigur or Angler seems like it could get a lot of use out of it. Of course it's questionable when you'd want to hold it up vs. tap out for something, but as a Delver player, I find that it's usually not hard to gauge that. Even less so when you're also running a discard suite. Is the discard suite enough to keep you off of really needing it (when combined with the removal and sideboard Negate/Countersquall)?
Current list plays 2 MD countersqualls. We use them to combat topdecks. It's less resource intensive than Logic Knot (delve mess with the graveyard and we use it very often). It's true that LK can hit creatures. But we can deal very easily with them, so we focus on hard countering the other stuff, specially planeswalkers
Between Elspeth, Gideon AoZ and Lingering Souls (and reboundinding / flashbacking) we have plenty of token production.
As The_Falconer said, we want Sorin to give all those creatures lifelink. You only want the 2/2 vampire if you are desperate for a blocker.
Lord of Innistrad would be better if you play a more defensive version of the deck, with a different set of walkers (like 2 Gideon Jura / 1 Sorin LoI / 3 Narset).
Last Tuesday I was playing against GW hatebears. I was in 2 life. I drawed Sorin, and he took me from there to 24 life in 2 turns (I had 8 spirit tokens, keeping 2 to block). That's how awesome Solemn Visitor is.
@Thallax I wouldn't drop the 24th land if you are playing colonnade. Remember you need 6 land to activate it. Otherwise consider playing 4th Serum Visions
Elspeth + Jura / ManLand / Her own token / Geist /even Snapcaster is also very good
6 ETB tapped lands seems like a lot. Remember that you want to interact in the early game: Discard, Serum Vision, Esper Charm, Souls. That early interaction helps to stabilize and be able to drop a planeswalker on turn 4-5. I strongly recommend you that if you want to play colonnades cut two of the other manlands.
That been said, remember that manlands are weaker now that exists Fatal Push. Our deck is on low land count compared to draw-go decks, and I don't recommend Colonnade for us. We may not have enough lands to activate and protect it or to activate it at all.
… if you control their hand with Lili it leaves esper charm more open to the draw node. …
The problem is Liliana is nonbo with Esper Charm's draw mode. We can play Lili, but have to tweak the list a little to accommodate her in the strategy.
You use a catch all especially against non-creature threats like planeswalkers and artifacts (we have esper charm for enchantments). I'm playing one mainboard, but is a meta decision, you can put one comfortably on the side.
I like Anguished Unmaking more, because it's an instant and in some match ups like jund they can simply abrupt decay your detention sphere, and we can't protect it with something like cryptic command, making it subpar (same happens with dredge post sideboard). We play enough life sources, so the 3 life cost is not a problem. Also it has more synergy with Narset and Snapcaster (if you manage to keep a good life count).
Is it absolutely necessary? Maybe not. It depends on your meta, and your sideboard plan. But it is worth the consideration.
English is not my first language, and sometimes I don't express myself correctly. In my second post I intended to say that those numbers were not the important part of my statement, but I obviously failed in my clarification.
That been said, I still think that Narset is a valuable option for this deck and can get us a reasonable amount of cards to stay on advantage.
If you don't like the card, don't play it. And move on
EDIT (doble posting):
I think 3 is a must, and the 4th is optional. The deck lists are very tight right now
Wall of Omens vs Serum Vision: wall is more mana expensive, doesn't scry, can't be flashbacked/rebounded and dies to removal. We have Soul tokens to block on early game.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy: activates opponent's removal. Also, we prefer Snapcates due to instant speed flashbacks.
Jace, Architect of Thought: Is an option, but not the better one. Again, we have lingering souls, so his +1 is not that relevant for us. We have to use his -2 in order to draw something weakening him (vs Narset's +1) and he has a low starting loyalty.
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets/Ob Nixilis Reignited: These 5 CMC walkers are slow for this deck. Narset comes earlier. Protecting her doesn't have to be an issue with all the discard, removal and blockers we have.
Dovin Baan: I played him alongside Nasert some time ago. It's a fine option, but metagame dependent. He is good agaist midrange decks that have bigger creatures or utility ones instead of massive 1/1's or 2/2's.
Finaly Narset Transcendent herself: You usually will be using the +1, in my experience (4/5 months playing the deck) she draws a 70-80% of the time. Also, presents a clock that most people fear, and they will aggressively try to kill her. Letting you concentrate on controlling the board.
Latest versions of the deck (the ones that play Liliana) are cutting Narset or putting her on the sideboard. I think that is ok. She may be not the best option on this metagame. But still viable.
Think on Jeskai decks playing Ajani Vengeant, Gideon Jura, Jace Architect of Thought and Elspeth Sun's Champion. They are all good options depending on the metagame. I think this is what's going to happen with this deck. We have 5-7 PW slots in the deck that we can fill depending on personal and metagame choices, and for that I think our best options are:
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Liliana of the Veil
Narset Transcendent
Elspet, Knight Errant
Gideon Jura
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Jace, Architect of Thought
Not necessarily in that order.
Think that you have a lot of 1 cmc removal, and you can flashback them easily. But Wrath effects are me expensive to do that, and many times you want to have them in your hand rather than in your graveyard because of that.
My bad. didn't notice it was in the other group.
This is my Lili-less list for reference (I'm staying here until I get the Lilianas):
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (18)
1 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Serum Visions
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Thoughtseize
Instant (10)
1 Blessed Alliance
3 Esper Charm
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
Planeswalker (5)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Narset Transcendent
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Disenchant
1 Extirpate
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Lost Legacy
1 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
This is the sideboard guide that Dylan posted in the FB community
So before we get started sideboarding its important to understand a few things about the deck
1) we are a midrange deck.
2) as we are using 4 liliana, we dont really care about card advantage, its about card quality, and as a tapout deck, this is fine in conjunction with liliana
3) dont overboard if the matchup is already good, why fix it if its not broken?
4) if you choose to play other cards in your sideboard, go ahead! but make sure your cards come in for multiple purposes and matchups and arent just "i have a foil one" or "my friend won FNM with this one card one time"
ABZAN
this is actually close to a mirror, with Narset being the essential trump as it allows us to grind through more cards, while stranding removal in their hand they toss to lili
on the play, and draw is different, as lili goes down in stock on the draw
so play
- 2 Thoughtseize
-1 brutality
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Rest in Peace
on the draw -2 liliana over Thoughtseize
JUND
Similar to bazan, but not as much emphasis on graveyard. Keep it simple, dont get carried away
- 1 tseize
- 1 brutality
+ 1 flex (Disenchant if you feel they may have choke/night of souls betrayal or some random other permanent, otherwise keep the brutality MD
+ 1 baneslayer
GRIXIS DELVER
- 2 verdict
- 2 push
- 1 brutality
+ 1 dispel
+ 2 Countersquall
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Rest in Peace (hoses gurmags and kcommand engine enough im happy to sacrifice souls and my own snaps)
GRIXIS CONTROL
Aim your discard for their Counterspells/taisgur, force through liliana and the game is essentially over
- 3 push
- 2 verdict
+ 2 Countersquall
+ 1 dispel
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Banelsayer angel
JESKAI
almost exactly the same as grixis control, except be weary of SB Blood Moon, and we only care about their colonnades so path is out
- 3 path
- 2 verdict
- 1 brutality
+ 1 dispel
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 2 Countersquall
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
affinity
- 2 liliana
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
lili looks garbage with so manay manlands, just be careful timing when to cast her
Deaths shadow
they have sideboard Lingering Souls, often lili is an edict, and then you rarely tick her up again, unless you have your own souls to counter theirs. the sb souls is really the only dealbreaker, so board in a surgical or 2.
- 1 liliana
- 1 brutality (doesnt kill anything)
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
CHEERIOS
basically just wait and kill whatever dude they have, aim surgicals at Mox Opal, and retracts and hey will REALLLLY STRUGGLE!
- 1 brutality (too sow)
- 2 verdict
- 2 Narset (WAAAAAAAAY TOO SLOW)
- 3 souls (irrelevant really)
+ 2 Meddling Mage (name retract)
+ 2 geist
+ 1 dispel
+ 1 surgical
+ 1 Disenchant (leylines)
+ 1 ;Lost Legacy
valakut
URGH **** THIS DECK
- 3 Fatal Push
- 2 verdict
- 4 souls
- 1 brutality
+ 1 surgical
+ 2 Meddling Mage
+ 1 Lost Legacy
+ 2 geist
+ 2 timely
+ 2 Countersquall
BANTDRAZI
not much really changes tbh, drop when she is safe-ish( with smasher is anything safe?)
- 1 brutality
- 2 inquisition
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
+ 2 geist
BURN!!!!!
Yeah this feels terrifying but is randomly really easy. each lili tick up is gain 3 life
- 4 Lingering Souls
- 2 verdict
- 2 Narset
+ 1 dispel
+ 2 geist
+ 2 timely
+ 1 Baneslayer Angel
+ 2 Countersquall
Tron
ALSO **** THIS DECK
- 1 Path to Exile
- 1 Snapcaster Mage
- 1 brutality (cant take karn)
- 2 verdict
- 3 push
- 1 liliana
+ 2 Meddling Mage
+ 2 geist
+ 1 Lost Legacy
+ 1 surgical
+ 2 Countersquall
+ 1 Disenchant
One Thoughtseize and one Collective Brutality has been swapped to sideboard
Try to play 2-3 catch-all removal in the 75. 1/2 Anguished Unmaking and Runed Halo split is the recommended option, but can also try Detention Sphere and keep Engineered Explosives.
Sorin is less consistent if you don't play 4 Lingering Souls. You can cut Batterskull or the 3rd Narset (which is flex) to put the 4th LS
Current list plays 2 MD countersqualls. We use them to combat topdecks. It's less resource intensive than Logic Knot (delve mess with the graveyard and we use it very often). It's true that LK can hit creatures. But we can deal very easily with them, so we focus on hard countering the other stuff, specially planeswalkers
As The_Falconer said, we want Sorin to give all those creatures lifelink. You only want the 2/2 vampire if you are desperate for a blocker.
Lord of Innistrad would be better if you play a more defensive version of the deck, with a different set of walkers (like 2 Gideon Jura / 1 Sorin LoI / 3 Narset).
Last Tuesday I was playing against GW hatebears. I was in 2 life. I drawed Sorin, and he took me from there to 24 life in 2 turns (I had 8 spirit tokens, keeping 2 to block). That's how awesome Solemn Visitor is.
Tamiyo may compete with Narset for the card advantage, and the only card that synegyses with her in our deck is Gideon Jura with his -2.
Elspeth is good in the sideboard, but is meta dependent.
And Ashiok is good in matchups that we are already good against. The current list is more versatile without it.
Obviously everything is worth testing. What is not necessarily convenient in general meta may still work in yours.
Elspeth + Jura / ManLand / Her own token / Geist /even Snapcaster is also very good
6 ETB tapped lands seems like a lot. Remember that you want to interact in the early game: Discard, Serum Vision, Esper Charm, Souls. That early interaction helps to stabilize and be able to drop a planeswalker on turn 4-5. I strongly recommend you that if you want to play colonnades cut two of the other manlands.
That been said, remember that manlands are weaker now that exists Fatal Push. Our deck is on low land count compared to draw-go decks, and I don't recommend Colonnade for us. We may not have enough lands to activate and protect it or to activate it at all.
You're welcome.
The problem is Liliana is nonbo with Esper Charm's draw mode. We can play Lili, but have to tweak the list a little to accommodate her in the strategy.
I like Anguished Unmaking more, because it's an instant and in some match ups like jund they can simply abrupt decay your detention sphere, and we can't protect it with something like cryptic command, making it subpar (same happens with dredge post sideboard). We play enough life sources, so the 3 life cost is not a problem. Also it has more synergy with Narset and Snapcaster (if you manage to keep a good life count).
Is it absolutely necessary? Maybe not. It depends on your meta, and your sideboard plan. But it is worth the consideration.