Second, a few cards I could see them hit:
Puresteel Paladin(our bad guys, deck shouldn't force you to play suboptimally in fear of dropping 1 creature and winning g before a third land is played. Alternately could be opal and just kill the deck outright but I really don't see that happening.
Opal, see above.
SSG, sorry ad nauseam you guys were actually one of the fair ones in this scenario.
Street wraith, allows players to play a 56 card deck and has the added benefit of growing death shadow and the hype train it's riding. Could alternately be bauble but I think bauble is fine and shares to much synergy with a new mechanic of the game in delirium for word to toss it.
Bauble, see above.
Ancient Stirrings, makes eldrazi and lantern to consistent, shift this card selection to blue instead. Would only happen with a preordain unban.
In closing, I vote no change. Just had some fun writing this.
The chain would start by searching for tolaria and a bounce land, both come into play tapped and then untap, you float GUU, then you transmute the bounced tolaria that turn.
If you have Boros bounceland and vesuva, I am wondering why you kept that hand, or feeling bad for such crappy draws. The 3 cards you do not want to see are Vesuva, Boros Garrison, and slayers stronghold. You would need to have a pretty compelling 6 cards to keep those in an opening hand... If you have the Stronghold and Garrison: pitch it, 100% of the time. keeping or drawing one makes it harder to pull off the combo, but that is just a statistical probability you have to accept and live with. You will see games where you only see 2 lands the entire game (In opening hand or naturally drawing), you can lose or win with only 2 lands naturally.
This deck has several singletons, many are combo pieces, the others filler that help you. Just like any combo, you don't want to see certain cards, just like in Burn or Jund you do not want to see 10 lands... you want to see answers.
Thanks for the response, another couple questions. Please bare with me as this deck has some unique things going on and i'm trying to figure them out.
If you use the GUU from Tolaria and SGC and bounce the Tolaria you have to do this on an ETB trigger and not attack trigger right? Since your GUU would fizzle before you can transmute because its a sorcery?
If you have 1 Amulet in play and generate 6 mana on T3 to cast titan, what is the optimal line assuming no interaction from op? I believe slayers stronghold+Boros Garrison you can only activate once and you would not be able to get 4 mana required to activate sunhome during attack step?(This play requires 2 amulets?)
I like the idea of this deck but am a little confused in regards to the "titan chain" I understand when you think op has an answer to your titan and you dont have amulet in play you get tolaria and simic growth chamber bouncing tolaria to your hand. What I dont understand is if next turn you dont have untapped mana you only have 8 mana open to cast tolaria and pact and titan which is 9. So I assume the chain only works if you have the last untapped man source?
Second question, you get titan down with amulet in play but have both boros garrison and vesuva in play or in hand. What do you grab with titan since you cant make RW for Slayers Stronghold?
What are the bad matchups for this deck? My local meta is jund, burn, bant eldrazi, grixis, and various t3 strategies.
Watching the videos, I was also less than impressed with the deck. Not consistent enough. If you can't keep or get out a scales/constrictor, or over really on the ballista, you get mowed over.
This deck is rather different though, it even has a copy of Bioshift.
While I would change some things, I think this deck has a bit more going for it. It has some aggro edge to really on which I think is key.
When I see Dromoka's Command in these lists, I wonder if squeezing in Predator Ooze is possibly. It would be a strain on the mana base possibly. Command and Narnam Renegade seem like too good of a combo as well, since the deathtouch is relevant.
I think as an aggro combo deck the direction most lists are going are pretty close but need refinement. A few things you have e said inspired me to try something new. The big issue with the deck is not getting out the scales effects so really the best option would be shift from aggro to midrange and allow ourselves to control what is happening until the OPP is relying on topdecks to catch up.
I started with an abzan midrange shell and worked in the fun combo midrange aspect of hardened scales. We now have draws which can be removal heavy with hand disruption or we can have e aggressive starts just like we do now.
The big question will be what does this deck either provide or lack when compared to abzan midrange and why play this. While I don't have the testing to give a full answer, I believe this shell has much more resistance to smaller go wide decks because of walking ballista and the ability to use it as value removal early. Ballista also provides ways to win outside of combat damage which is a huge positive during a board stall. Lastly, playing reactive answers perfectly compliments our strategy of setting up unfair advantage through Constrictor and scales.
Interested in feedback from everyone on this idea.
So why this deck has been working for me, first of all similar to knightfall it has potential for a t3 combo kill by going noble>rite of passage>scales+ballista or scales>ballista>rite of passage. Its fragile but agains non interactive combo decks its there. Plus rite of passage is by no means a dead card in the deck outside the combo. Its amazing with ballista alone, its amazing with dromoka's command, and its an amazing topdeck in a board stall.
Noble is easily the worst card in the deck while may very well just be a bird of paradise or servant of the scale or thoughtseize but for now I like having extra bolt fodder/more mana for the walkers and ooze. Plus its relevant to push through a couple extra damage.
Graft was just a cute idea of mine until I started testing it, this is really what is gluing the deck together. 8 Graft cards, 8 Scale effects, and 8 payoff cards really gives you the aggro/combo element. In multiples graft creatures are amazing on their own without a ballista or walker. It basically just constantly gives you double counters. The big plus here is it also improves the decks viability without a scale on the battlefield as it lets you push out higher value walkers throughout the game. It really adds a level of complexity where people dont know what to remove from your board. Should they get rid of the graft creatures before they outvalue the game, take out the scales creatures, or save removal for the payoff.
The deck is already extremely favored vs other aggro decks as it has tons of value removal and can race quite well and none of my changes effect that.
The board is always in a state of flux and currently just serves as a trans formative sideboard bringing in large quantities of cards that are good.
ashton - do you have any recorded games on youtube or something? I'd love to play against you some time as I'm trying to pick up this (more complicated than it seems!) deck, but i seem to be on your ignore list on Cockatrice
HAHA sorry, PM me your name on Cockatrice and I'll unblock you. I ignore a lot of users. I'm actually jamming right now if you hurry.
Learned a lot watching some of your games on cockatrice.
As always, I have more questions! Obviously vs affinity we take the control roll where delver is good for blocking, and we value our removal to keep them off their haymakers until we can find a huntmaster and attempt to let him do the heavy lifting. What is your sideboard plan now that you have 2 EE, I can see this being yet another good card vs them.
I asked for a bit of advice a couple pages ago vs bant eldrazi but now that we arent running revelry in the side I imagine we will have to bring in EE for RIP. What is our sideboard plan here?
EE is also great vs Scions against Eldrazi and can kill Hierarch in a pinch. It's more flexible than Revelry in this matchup.
I realize taking out Leak seems crazy against Eldrazi but they are pretty good at finding their Caverns and Moon shuts them off their spells anyway. We bring in a second Reveler against them because we have space to keep most of the Scours; not true vs. Affinity.
As always incredibly helpful. What do you do vs Knightfall? I just feel like I'm being out tempod the entire game. I save my bolts for 3/3 knights and quellers and counters for Coco/combo but they just get so many creatures Dow. So fast I always feel behind. What's our gameplay here both pre and post board where we obviously go for a quick bloodmoon.
ashton - do you have any recorded games on youtube or something? I'd love to play against you some time as I'm trying to pick up this (more complicated than it seems!) deck, but i seem to be on your ignore list on Cockatrice
HAHA sorry, PM me your name on Cockatrice and I'll unblock you. I ignore a lot of users. I'm actually jamming right now if you hurry.
Learned a lot watching some of your games on cockatrice.
As always, I have more questions! Obviously vs affinity we take the control roll where delver is good for blocking, and we value our removal to keep them off their haymakers until we can find a huntmaster and attempt to let him do the heavy lifting. What is your sideboard plan now that you have 2 EE, I can see this being yet another good card vs them.
I asked for a bit of advice a couple pages ago vs bant eldrazi but now that we arent running revelry in the side I imagine we will have to bring in EE for RIP. What is our sideboard plan here?
ashton - do you have any recorded games on youtube or something? I'd love to play against you some time as I'm trying to pick up this (more complicated than it seems!) deck, but i seem to be on your ignore list on Cockatrice
HAHA sorry, PM me your name on Cockatrice and I'll unblock you. I ignore a lot of users. I'm actually jamming right now if you hurry.
I just wanna watch you play. You should totally steam your testing
I'm lead to believe that mtgo is its own special... thing. But you guys should check out the latest deaths shadow list on mtggoldfish. It's a lot more jundy now.. and the dude running the list has 5-0'd twice in the past week.
Ghash streams on twitch quite frequently. Its basically Jund now as you mentioned.
How are u guys fairing against bant eldrazi with the new build? It seems game 1 I'm not fast enough because they either get out a quick displacer and bounce my attacks every turn or play a quick thought knot seer that I can't handle. Either way the game always goes to turn 4 or 5 where they always play a smasher or drowner. Game 2 it's my moon's vs their rest in peace and if I don't find moon I'm losing... How are we sideboarding and what's the plan?
Second, a few cards I could see them hit:
Puresteel Paladin(our bad guys, deck shouldn't force you to play suboptimally in fear of dropping 1 creature and winning g before a third land is played. Alternately could be opal and just kill the deck outright but I really don't see that happening.
Opal, see above.
SSG, sorry ad nauseam you guys were actually one of the fair ones in this scenario.
Street wraith, allows players to play a 56 card deck and has the added benefit of growing death shadow and the hype train it's riding. Could alternately be bauble but I think bauble is fine and shares to much synergy with a new mechanic of the game in delirium for word to toss it.
Bauble, see above.
Ancient Stirrings, makes eldrazi and lantern to consistent, shift this card selection to blue instead. Would only happen with a preordain unban.
In closing, I vote no change. Just had some fun writing this.
Thanks for the response, another couple questions. Please bare with me as this deck has some unique things going on and i'm trying to figure them out.
If you use the GUU from Tolaria and SGC and bounce the Tolaria you have to do this on an ETB trigger and not attack trigger right? Since your GUU would fizzle before you can transmute because its a sorcery?
If you have 1 Amulet in play and generate 6 mana on T3 to cast titan, what is the optimal line assuming no interaction from op? I believe slayers stronghold+Boros Garrison you can only activate once and you would not be able to get 4 mana required to activate sunhome during attack step?(This play requires 2 amulets?)
Second question, you get titan down with amulet in play but have both boros garrison and vesuva in play or in hand. What do you grab with titan since you cant make RW for Slayers Stronghold?
What are the bad matchups for this deck? My local meta is jund, burn, bant eldrazi, grixis, and various t3 strategies.
I think as an aggro combo deck the direction most lists are going are pretty close but need refinement. A few things you have e said inspired me to try something new. The big issue with the deck is not getting out the scales effects so really the best option would be shift from aggro to midrange and allow ourselves to control what is happening until the OPP is relying on topdecks to catch up.
I started with an abzan midrange shell and worked in the fun combo midrange aspect of hardened scales. We now have draws which can be removal heavy with hand disruption or we can have e aggressive starts just like we do now.
The big question will be what does this deck either provide or lack when compared to abzan midrange and why play this. While I don't have the testing to give a full answer, I believe this shell has much more resistance to smaller go wide decks because of walking ballista and the ability to use it as value removal early. Ballista also provides ways to win outside of combat damage which is a huge positive during a board stall. Lastly, playing reactive answers perfectly compliments our strategy of setting up unfair advantage through Constrictor and scales.
Interested in feedback from everyone on this idea.
3 Arcbound Ravager
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Walking Ballista
4 Winding Constrictor
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Dark Confidant
Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hardened Scales
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Lingering Souls
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Gorgon's Head
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Duress
4 Aquastrand Spider
4 Simic Initiate
2 Rite of Passage
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Walking Ballista
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Noble Hierarch
Spells
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Fatal Push
4 Hardened Scales
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Rest in Peace
4 Lingering Souls
2 Feed the Clan
2 Basilisk Collar
4 Thoughtseize
So why this deck has been working for me, first of all similar to knightfall it has potential for a t3 combo kill by going noble>rite of passage>scales+ballista or scales>ballista>rite of passage. Its fragile but agains non interactive combo decks its there. Plus rite of passage is by no means a dead card in the deck outside the combo. Its amazing with ballista alone, its amazing with dromoka's command, and its an amazing topdeck in a board stall.
Noble is easily the worst card in the deck while may very well just be a bird of paradise or servant of the scale or thoughtseize but for now I like having extra bolt fodder/more mana for the walkers and ooze. Plus its relevant to push through a couple extra damage.
Graft was just a cute idea of mine until I started testing it, this is really what is gluing the deck together. 8 Graft cards, 8 Scale effects, and 8 payoff cards really gives you the aggro/combo element. In multiples graft creatures are amazing on their own without a ballista or walker. It basically just constantly gives you double counters. The big plus here is it also improves the decks viability without a scale on the battlefield as it lets you push out higher value walkers throughout the game. It really adds a level of complexity where people dont know what to remove from your board. Should they get rid of the graft creatures before they outvalue the game, take out the scales creatures, or save removal for the payoff.
The deck is already extremely favored vs other aggro decks as it has tons of value removal and can race quite well and none of my changes effect that.
The board is always in a state of flux and currently just serves as a trans formative sideboard bringing in large quantities of cards that are good.
Please let me know what you think
As always incredibly helpful. What do you do vs Knightfall? I just feel like I'm being out tempod the entire game. I save my bolts for 3/3 knights and quellers and counters for Coco/combo but they just get so many creatures Dow. So fast I always feel behind. What's our gameplay here both pre and post board where we obviously go for a quick bloodmoon.
Learned a lot watching some of your games on cockatrice.
As always, I have more questions! Obviously vs affinity we take the control roll where delver is good for blocking, and we value our removal to keep them off their haymakers until we can find a huntmaster and attempt to let him do the heavy lifting. What is your sideboard plan now that you have 2 EE, I can see this being yet another good card vs them.
I asked for a bit of advice a couple pages ago vs bant eldrazi but now that we arent running revelry in the side I imagine we will have to bring in EE for RIP. What is our sideboard plan here?
I just wanna watch you play. You should totally steam your testing
Are we going to get a nice TNM report?
Ghash streams on twitch quite frequently. Its basically Jund now as you mentioned.