I think any Mardu Shadow deck is actively bad unless it plays 4 Baubles and 4 Wraiths.
I actively dislike Givers - in this deck, I mean - cause the 12 discard shell (Seize, Kozilek, Sculler) already does a good job at protecting our threats, and TBR is the way to go to overcome a flooded board.
IMHO we lost something from the banning of Looting, it was strong at filtering dead discard spells in the mid-late game. But the reason to play Mardu is to consistently drain the opponent resources before chaining Shadows and Captains.
Mystic Sanctuary in a less mana-hungry shell may be interesting. In Jeskai, though? Welp.
In the meantime, in testing I'm having good results with this list. It's the only way I was able to put Delver at work, following the patterns of old Patriot lists from Legacy.
Basically, this list takes away some of Delver's concerns away just by having the possibility of deploying Batterskull into play (Dredge, Burn, EldraziTron) and it adds the grind element vs Control/BGx between Snappies and Stoneforges.
I think we can agree that there are very good Jeskai CopyCat builds with and without Seasoned Pyromancer
Of course. I wasn't implying that my build is the "best", just that it's the one I'm more confortable with (and I played this deck since its inception).
The fact is, the one I built is the most "Splinter-Twinesque" between them all. It attacks the opponent in a very similar way (pressuring him with little creatures + Snap/Bolt plan) and can ditch useless pieces of the combo when they're not required (Twin played 2 Desolate Lighthouse, I'm on Pyromancer). I like this approach because I do think it's the best in an open metagame. More controllish versions are better in some matchups, but worse versus the field overall. For istance, I'm extremely happy with this list cause it eats BGx instead of suffering them, and does a better job at dealing with Combo/BigMana with "plan B" (which is actually plan A, I should say).
I don't even have a copy on MTGO (playing 1 Fact or Fiction in that spot)
I would suggest you to replace it with another Narset. You're cutting one piece of CA that interacts with Felidar/Saheeli in favor of one which is: a) overcosted, b) doesn't play well with neither of the aforementioned cards.
I'm pleased by the list mostly because it can shift gears quite confortably.
Before going all out on the Snap-Pyro-Burn plan, I was stuck with the Controllish version that features lots of Narset and Teferi. They are all stars, when it comes to do their job. They're actively bad, though, when the small synergies in our deck don't work well. Seasoned Pyromancer has proven to be extra good at discarding useless combo pieces from my hand, as well as to ditch counterspells in matchups where they are dead draws (read: Humans). More importantly, they HAVE BODIES. They attack and block, pressure opponent's walkers and protect ours.
I do think that the Royal Scions could be a good addiction for Jeskai Midrange. Wouldn't play them in my Saheeli build for the aforementioned reasons, but they're a very decent card.
I don't know about "classic" builds, but I did pretty well with this one between August and September, before switching to another deck (won two local tournaments, one top4 and one top8 out of seven total).
I had a winning streak consisting of ONLY 2-1, ALWAYS losing the first game and then recovering postboard. This deck's sideboard is truly insane, it compensate lots of issues we can have g1.
R1: Humans 2-1
R2: Jund Shadow 2-1
R3: Green Tron 2-1
R4: Bant Vizier 2-1
I comboed like two times, against Tron in the last game and g2 versus Vizier. Saheeli Rai is such an insane card, in this shell, even without Felidar. I won most of my matches by copying Snapcaster and bolting the opponent into oblivion, or going hellbent, castingSeasoned Pyromancer, playing my spells, hellbent again, duplicating Pyromancer. Stimated value: towards infinite.
I also had some playtesting time against Boros Burn, and while we didn't count the games I won around half of them. Snap-Helix is strong in this one.
I decided to go for Spreading Seas instead of Disenchant-effects because Tron lands and Valakut can be a pain in the ass, and normally we can manage Urza between counterspells, Paths and our combo.
You either play 25 lands, 4 Remands, 0 cc1 cantrip or shave some lands and spells to bring them in. There's no way the proportions in this list are correct. You should look for old Jeskai Geist iterations.
I started with one Pyromancer and lots of planeswalkers. Then I realized I wanted to pressure the opponent and flood the board instead of being completely reactive and/or depending on the combo.
Pyromancer is extra good cause it helps in several scenarios: as I already mentioned, it floods the board. Ergo, it plays well either at pressuring combo, pressuring planeswalkers, making chumpblockers and... winning the game. Narset is a very good Impulse + Leovold in one card, but it dies immediately against anything even remotely aggressive AND doesn’t help killing the opponent. Other than bottoming Cat (don’t know how many games I lost due to this).
I already spoke about Teferi. It simply doesn’t play well with any aggressive strategy.
Stoneforge are fine, but I should play them instead of other CA slots (read: Pyromancer) and there’s no way in hell I’m doing this. According to my testing it’s easier to contain aggressive decks with a mix of Burn spells and then flashbacking Helixes with Snappy. I don’t see how to slot them in.
I’d like to try a single Vendilion maindeck, though. It basically does a similar job to Teferi (looking out for removal spells before comboing) but with a body and benefits vs Tron.
With so many good 1 cc spells, why not play Dreadhorde Arcanist? It's the centerpiece of the top control deck in Vintage with a similar number of 1cc spells.
There are actually few juicy targets for Arcanist compared to the norm. In Vintage, if you activate it twice you basically win the game because of the powerlevel (you can flashback Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, Pyroblast that often hits something on the board...). Here, you just go for "bad cantrips" or situational removal spells.
You can definitely try a list similar to this, though:
That list, in the current meta, is complete garbage. I refined it for a very Dredge-centric and Combo-centric metagame, it loses hard to most fair decks (like Jund and most Stoneblade lists).
Now, the card is obviously very, very fitting in a Saheeli shell. It helps protecting it, it deals with Control, it bounces important stuff. I've got a problem with it, though. The metagame right now is divided into two categories: decks we have to race with the combo (Tron, Scapeshift, Dredge...) and strategies that tend to go grindy BUT require immediate board presence (Jund, Gx based, WG Eldrazi, Burn...). In the first category, Teferi is basically a pitch for Force. In the second, Teferi is good when we already established control of the board, but it dies to litterarly everything.
In few words, I'm dissatisfied with it at the moment. That's what I'm testing:
It seems silly to speak about this... but the deck REALLY plays like the old Tempo Twin lists. Seasoned Pyro + Snapcaster + Bolts is how I close most of my games. I'm not particularly concerned about the lack of targets for Felidar (4 Snap + 4 Pyro + 4 Saheeli anyway) because we can actually discard dead copies to Pyromancer.
Now, the only things I'm concerned with is one slot: I would like to have an additional card against Dredge-like. Either Ashiok, Dream Render (instead of the second Stroke, as it also helps vs Primeval Titan) or the first Anger of the Gods (in the place of either Disenchant/Abrade), but I'm dissatisfied with the lack of interaction with my own beaters.
I basically abandoned Jeskai Delver right after the boom of Wrenn&Six. That card simply destroys the deck by itself. Young Peezy becomes obsolete, unflipped Delver was already bad, now it becomes terrible. I'm sad cause Force of Negation really boosted the deck, and I was having good responses from it, but right now there are TOO MANY two mana planeswalkers. Not just Jund, also 4C-Control variations (I even saw some Saheeli lists between them), Snow-decks which weren't a joke, Lava Dart and Gut Shot which are two very big reasons to stay in red when playing an aggressive strategy. Delver is barely playable, nowadays.
On the other hand, I'm having great fun deckbuilding with Saheeli. There are so many options, and I almost tried all of them. Seas/Watcher package, Stoneforge, high on Narset or Seasoned Pyro, Astrolabe, Nahiri... seriously, whenever I go to my usual shop people already know what I'm playing... yet, they don't know. They expect the combo, but then there are every time 7-8 major changes in the deck.
At the moment, I'm high on Snapcaster Mage and Seasoned Pyromancer to grind against non-blue decks and putting power on the field instead of playing the waiting game.
Had a good run with Saheeli. 3-1-1, losing in the opener to Dredge (1-2), drawing in the third match vs Gx Tron due to time issues (I would have probably won), then winning against Eldrazi Tron (2-0), Temur Scapeshift (2-1), Jund (2-0).
I seem to have lost my Tarns ssomewhere. Until I find them again, I'll just strive with Deltas (not planning on spending money to buy cards that I should already possess).
Seasoned Pyromancers was a beast at digging, and it has been by far the best target for either parts of the combo. Saheeli is quite good by itself, providig scry every turn and duplicating Snaps or Mancers, I've got a lot of value from them. You can pitch useless copies to Force anyway. The latter has probably been the best addiction we could hope for in this deck. I played my dose of Jeskai Saheeli in the past, but being a Tap-Out Tempo-Control deck that now HAS access to free counterspells is huge.
I'd love to make space in the sideboard for a Timely (fifth Burn hate piece) or an Ashiok (fourth hate card against Dredge, but also usable vs BigMana).
I actively dislike Givers - in this deck, I mean - cause the 12 discard shell (Seize, Kozilek, Sculler) already does a good job at protecting our threats, and TBR is the way to go to overcome a flooded board.
IMHO we lost something from the banning of Looting, it was strong at filtering dead discard spells in the mid-late game. But the reason to play Mardu is to consistently drain the opponent resources before chaining Shadows and Captains.
In the meantime, in testing I'm having good results with this list. It's the only way I was able to put Delver at work, following the patterns of old Patriot lists from Legacy.
2x Seachrome Coast
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
2x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
Creatures (12)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Opt
4x Sleight of Hand
Permission (8)
4x Remand
4x Force of Negation
Removals (11)
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
Artifacts (2)
2x Batterskull
2x Celestial Purge
4x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Spell Snare
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Abrade
1x Disenchant
Basically, this list takes away some of Delver's concerns away just by having the possibility of deploying Batterskull into play (Dredge, Burn, EldraziTron) and it adds the grind element vs Control/BGx between Snappies and Stoneforges.
It is working better than I expected, to be fair.
Of course. I wasn't implying that my build is the "best", just that it's the one I'm more confortable with (and I played this deck since its inception).
The fact is, the one I built is the most "Splinter-Twinesque" between them all. It attacks the opponent in a very similar way (pressuring him with little creatures + Snap/Bolt plan) and can ditch useless pieces of the combo when they're not required (Twin played 2 Desolate Lighthouse, I'm on Pyromancer). I like this approach because I do think it's the best in an open metagame. More controllish versions are better in some matchups, but worse versus the field overall. For istance, I'm extremely happy with this list cause it eats BGx instead of suffering them, and does a better job at dealing with Combo/BigMana with "plan B" (which is actually plan A, I should say).
I would suggest you to replace it with another Narset. You're cutting one piece of CA that interacts with Felidar/Saheeli in favor of one which is: a) overcosted, b) doesn't play well with neither of the aforementioned cards.
Before going all out on the Snap-Pyro-Burn plan, I was stuck with the Controllish version that features lots of Narset and Teferi. They are all stars, when it comes to do their job. They're actively bad, though, when the small synergies in our deck don't work well. Seasoned Pyromancer has proven to be extra good at discarding useless combo pieces from my hand, as well as to ditch counterspells in matchups where they are dead draws (read: Humans). More importantly, they HAVE BODIES. They attack and block, pressure opponent's walkers and protect ours.
I do think that the Royal Scions could be a good addiction for Jeskai Midrange. Wouldn't play them in my Saheeli build for the aforementioned reasons, but they're a very decent card.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
7 Islands
4 Glacial Fortress
Creatures (7)
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Opt
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Force of Negation
4 Archmage's Charm
4 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
3 Winds of Abandon
3 Detention Sphere
2 Spell Snare
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Condemn
1 Oust
2 Dovin's Veto
2 Spreading Seas
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Celestial Purge
3 Rest in Peace
Turbo Mentor has been insane the whole time, with people who didn't expect it in the main.
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Plains
3x Spirebluff Canal
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Fiery Isle
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Seasoned Pyromancer
4x Felidar Guardian
Planeswalkers (4)
4x Saheeli Rai
Cantrips (5)
4x Opt
1x Sleight of Hand
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
Permission (7)
3x Force of Negation
4x Remand
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Celestial Purge
1x Spell Snare
1x Force of Negation
3x Rest in Peace
2x Spreading Seas
1x Blessed Alliance
I had a winning streak consisting of ONLY 2-1, ALWAYS losing the first game and then recovering postboard. This deck's sideboard is truly insane, it compensate lots of issues we can have g1.
R1: Humans 2-1
R2: Jund Shadow 2-1
R3: Green Tron 2-1
R4: Bant Vizier 2-1
I comboed like two times, against Tron in the last game and g2 versus Vizier. Saheeli Rai is such an insane card, in this shell, even without Felidar. I won most of my matches by copying Snapcaster and bolting the opponent into oblivion, or going hellbent, castingSeasoned Pyromancer, playing my spells, hellbent again, duplicating Pyromancer. Stimated value: towards infinite.
I also had some playtesting time against Boros Burn, and while we didn't count the games I won around half of them. Snap-Helix is strong in this one.
I decided to go for Spreading Seas instead of Disenchant-effects because Tron lands and Valakut can be a pain in the ass, and normally we can manage Urza between counterspells, Paths and our combo.
I just have to recover my Tarns, now.
Pyromancer is extra good cause it helps in several scenarios: as I already mentioned, it floods the board. Ergo, it plays well either at pressuring combo, pressuring planeswalkers, making chumpblockers and... winning the game. Narset is a very good Impulse + Leovold in one card, but it dies immediately against anything even remotely aggressive AND doesn’t help killing the opponent. Other than bottoming Cat (don’t know how many games I lost due to this).
I already spoke about Teferi. It simply doesn’t play well with any aggressive strategy.
Stoneforge are fine, but I should play them instead of other CA slots (read: Pyromancer) and there’s no way in hell I’m doing this. According to my testing it’s easier to contain aggressive decks with a mix of Burn spells and then flashbacking Helixes with Snappy. I don’t see how to slot them in.
I’d like to try a single Vendilion maindeck, though. It basically does a similar job to Teferi (looking out for removal spells before comboing) but with a body and benefits vs Tron.
There are actually few juicy targets for Arcanist compared to the norm. In Vintage, if you activate it twice you basically win the game because of the powerlevel (you can flashback Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, Pyroblast that often hits something on the board...). Here, you just go for "bad cantrips" or situational removal spells.
You can definitely try a list similar to this, though:
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
4x Spirebluff Canal
2x Island
1x Plains
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Dreadhorde Arcanist
4x Felidar Guardian
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Seasoned Pyromancer
(4 Planeswalkers):
4x Saheeli Rai
(8 Cantrips):
4x Opt
4x Sleight of Hand
1x Additional Cantrip
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Negation
1x Spell Pierce
By the way, we're discussing Jeskai Copycat variants it in another topic if you're interested:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/592647-jeskai-tempo-delver-prowess-the-jeskai-way?page=151
If you can't afford Snapcasters, I would suggest you to play a mix between Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Dreadhorde Arcanist. Seasoned Pyromancer is also a very good cart at grinding.
I forgot to speak about a topic I hold dear: Teferi, Time Raveler.
Now, the card is obviously very, very fitting in a Saheeli shell. It helps protecting it, it deals with Control, it bounces important stuff. I've got a problem with it, though. The metagame right now is divided into two categories: decks we have to race with the combo (Tron, Scapeshift, Dredge...) and strategies that tend to go grindy BUT require immediate board presence (Jund, Gx based, WG Eldrazi, Burn...). In the first category, Teferi is basically a pitch for Force. In the second, Teferi is good when we already established control of the board, but it dies to litterarly everything.
In few words, I'm dissatisfied with it at the moment. That's what I'm testing:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Plains
3x Spirebluff Canal
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Fiery Isle
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Seasoned Pyromancer
4x Felidar Guardian
Planeswalkers (4)
4x Saheeli Rai
Cantrips (5)
4x Opt
1x Sleight of Hand
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
Permission (7)
4x Force of Negation
3x Remand
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Celestial Purge
2x Spell Snare
3x Rest in Peace
1x Disenchant
1x Abrade
It seems silly to speak about this... but the deck REALLY plays like the old Tempo Twin lists. Seasoned Pyro + Snapcaster + Bolts is how I close most of my games. I'm not particularly concerned about the lack of targets for Felidar (4 Snap + 4 Pyro + 4 Saheeli anyway) because we can actually discard dead copies to Pyromancer.
Now, the only things I'm concerned with is one slot: I would like to have an additional card against Dredge-like. Either Ashiok, Dream Render (instead of the second Stroke, as it also helps vs Primeval Titan) or the first Anger of the Gods (in the place of either Disenchant/Abrade), but I'm dissatisfied with the lack of interaction with my own beaters.
On the other hand, I'm having great fun deckbuilding with Saheeli. There are so many options, and I almost tried all of them. Seas/Watcher package, Stoneforge, high on Narset or Seasoned Pyro, Astrolabe, Nahiri... seriously, whenever I go to my usual shop people already know what I'm playing... yet, they don't know. They expect the combo, but then there are every time 7-8 major changes in the deck.
At the moment, I'm high on Snapcaster Mage and Seasoned Pyromancer to grind against non-blue decks and putting power on the field instead of playing the waiting game.
I seem to have lost my Tarns ssomewhere. Until I find them again, I'll just strive with Deltas (not planning on spending money to buy cards that I should already possess).
1x Fiery Islet
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Clifftop Retreat
3x Spirebluff Canal
3x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Plains
Creatures (11)
4x Felidar Guardian
4x Seasoned Pyromancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Teferi, Time Raveler
Removals (9)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
1x Lightning Helix
Cantrips&Permission (11)
4x Opt
4x Force of Negation
3x Remand
3x Rest in Peace
2x Disdainful Stroke
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Lightning Helix
1x Spell Snare
2x Celestial Purge
Seasoned Pyromancers was a beast at digging, and it has been by far the best target for either parts of the combo. Saheeli is quite good by itself, providig scry every turn and duplicating Snaps or Mancers, I've got a lot of value from them. You can pitch useless copies to Force anyway. The latter has probably been the best addiction we could hope for in this deck. I played my dose of Jeskai Saheeli in the past, but being a Tap-Out Tempo-Control deck that now HAS access to free counterspells is huge.
I'd love to make space in the sideboard for a Timely (fifth Burn hate piece) or an Ashiok (fourth hate card against Dredge, but also usable vs BigMana).