Has anyone experimented with alternative win conditions (non combat) to be more resilient to nahiri/emrakul hate?
Also, does anyone think ghostly prison is viable against aggressive strategies, zoo/merfolk/tokens/goblins? If anything it buys nahiri plenty of time to do her thing.
From my experiences with the list so far, I have had trouble against Tron, Infect, and anything ensnaring bridge.
My sideboard is pretty strongly geared to give me a good game against tron game 2 and 3. I think we should be naturally well positioned against infect with all of our removal, I think it may be poor play on my part. I try to kill their creatures outside of combat, but they always seem to have the right pump spell, or a a way to dodge my paths. I was wondering how you all prioritize using your removal against infect?
As far as ensnaring bridge goes, I always have the feeling that we are short on win conditions in this deck. And it leaves me wanting to have an alternative way to victory aside from attacking. Are there any good options in our colors for win conditions that don't require combat? My mind goes to other planeswalkers for this, or an increase in burn spells.
Overall, do you all have any suggestions for changes to the mainboard/sideboard? Or any questions about card choices? I love to talk through ideal playable options and mix up card selections.
Hey guys. I'm torn on what to play in modern nowadays.
I'm currently playing blue moon. A fairly stock build, but no ancestral visions. However, I feel like the closing speed with the deck just isn't there. And the free wins with a turn 3 blood moon are becoming less and less frequent.
The two decks I am considering are transitioning into UWR nahiri, which seams like a natural step forward from blue moon (having two of the same colors), or Abzan Coco (as a past twin player, I like the idea of having a combo as well as a solid beat down plan).
I'm also considering a look at Jund, but due to the high price tag I tend to shy away from it.
Is there any clear deck of these three that is a cut above the rest? I've been testing with all three and having success- I just bobble between them all and fail to pull the trigger on getting the deck.
Your insight into the pros and cons between the decks would be much appreciated. Which do you think is best suited for an open field of a GP sized event? Who is the top dog?
I'm not the biggest fan of the lack of counter magic. However, I don't mind the addition of dark-dwellers. I could see this archetype evolving to facilitate more anger of the gods mainboard. I'd like to see some boom/bust mainboard as well as the additional blood moons added to the main. I could see a real mana denial route taking place between killing creatures, locking down lands by blood moon, and wiping the mana with a boom/bust with a dark dweller.
Maybe this is getting too fancy? Dark-dweller just creates some game breaking interactions that are fun to exploit.
I'm not sold on the thopter sword combo yet. This deck does it all in my mind. Strong controlling elements, 2 for 1 card advantage, disruption, solid sideboarding options, and quick closing speed if left unchecked.
I feel like this deck, while grindy, has the ability to succeed in almost all match-ups. The only foreseeable problem is early life gain to stabilize against burn decks. But hopefully the rest of the deck can make up for it.
The lands are still imperfect, not sure the best configuration.
Also, I'm still torn on if it's usually grixis > jeskai in the control mirrors. We lose the counter wars, but play much more threats.
I need to give some testing to the variants with the Combo in it. I think it could be very good. I think the best home for it is the control deck that has the best early game answers, which I think will be very meta dependent.
My eyes are currently on Jeskai and Grixis. I played with the comboless jeskai and found it to be quite good, but slow to close a game (which is not a surprise). Perhaps a deck that is a little more threat dense in Grixis would be a solid option.
I havent looked into sultai control, that's an interesting idea.
I was curious as to what you all thought the best blue based control deck would be after the ban. The consensus is that control will be playing 4 ancestral visions main. But with that being said, what shell will it shine in, and with a new meta what will be the best option.
In my mind I see three possibilities: Esper, Jeskai, or Grixis. Each one benefits from the addition of AV. Another option is to include the Thopter sword combo as well.
So the question I bring to you is: What will be the top dog in the control world? and will it include the thopter combo?
My initial thought are either a combo-less version of jeskai or grixis. I felt that jeskai had trouble with emptying their, now with AV we can reload. For Grixis, they are all about 2-for-1 plays and the prospect of goblin dark dweller to replay visions is crazy. I have little experience with the thopter combo.
Essentially the two versions are two sides of the same coin. Disrupt with Blood moon, Play strong creatures, play bolt and counters. It really is just splitting hairs and giving an advantage in certain match ups and losing some in others. There's no clear winner.
For me, I play UR simply because I don't have goyfs. For that reason I haven't tested RUG. If more people had access to playsets of goyfs I'm sure it would see more play.
My critique of temur moon is that is does have reduced synergy with moon by virtue of the third color, and with 3 moons main we are less likely to get opponents on turn 3 with a moon which is sometimes a free win. While we play better creatures in temur moon, I find them to suffer in a board stall. In UR moon we had PK for thopters and clique if you played one, these creatures are extremely synergistic with batterskull, a 5/5 vig lifelink flyer can usually win the game on its own and rarely can be blocked. Whereas for temur, your only way to push damage through in a stalled board is with a flipped huntmaster.
Maybe it's a non issue and I'm just being critical, I just wish there was some sort of consistent evasion available.
I'm not quite sold on the numbers they are running. Personally, I'd do 1 flamecaller, 3 PK, 2 Batterskull, and drop the burst lightning for something (which could change post-bannings).
I'm a fan of flame slash, It kills a majority of problematic monsters we face. However, I would recommend a dismember if the 2nd batterskull is included in their list since the life will be regained more easily.
I'm happy to see the deck continuing to put up some results.
My games usually go long enough to get to over 6 lands. With 4 bolts, 2 electrolyze, 2 flameslash, 1 roast, 2 mana leak, 2 remand, 2-3 spell snare, (and an izzet charm), I feel that the early game is manageable agaisnt agressive strategies. Through preserving your life total and utilizing removal the late game is achievable.
While it is possible to draw more dead cards, the ones in your hand will hopefully be upgraded by some margin, the extra card you draw is still a bonus. Equivalent to the pyromaster advantage at a minimum.
Wurmcoil is a very good card. Deathtouch is a beautiful thing (especially with the two 3 power tokens on the back end). I found that I've won so many games being able to reuse my batterskull though. I find it more resilient than wurmcoil (however I would reconsider if playing a grixis strategy with k. command). The value of recurring threats, with lifelink is phenomenal. Also, the vigilance of batterskull effectively blocks and protects your planeswalker
My "wurmcoil slot" is a replacement for a batterskull, not for a PK. I like PK, I play 3. I would swap out my izzet charm for the chandra because the loot effect is achievable through desolate lighthouse and chandra.
I'm going to make an argument for the use of Chandra Flamecaller over Chandra Pyromaster.
Blue Moon is a deck short on win cons. With any non-interactive card I play, I want to provide a way to win. Pyromaster, I feel does not provide the impact that a Pia and Kiran do at a 4cmc card. PnK can take over a game, block, and attack. Pyromaster's ultimate is also fairly underwhelming. On another note, I want to be playing a creature on turn 4 to help ward off attackers.
I think that Flamecaller, especially with Engulf The Shore spoiled, can shine. at 6cmc, she is the top of our curve. She can close out a game in about 3 turns assuming fetching takes place (maybe less). She provides snapcaster fuel with her redraw effect, as well as a way to ditch unwanted cards such as moons that rot in your hand. Her -x ability is a clean board wipe, one that can clear the board against elves/merfolk/Coco strategies/tokens, and our burn spells can take care of the earlier threats.
I am 100% in favor of playing Engulf. Instant speed bounce, especially with an opponents mana crippled is huge. Plus we can bounce our own snapcaster/clique (if we choose to play them)and flash in for extra value/free damage. the only downside is that it bounces our PnK and thopters.
Because of the bounce effects, its possible to transition to using a Chandra Flamecaller since her tokens will be excellent after a bounced board
Also, does anyone think ghostly prison is viable against aggressive strategies, zoo/merfolk/tokens/goblins? If anything it buys nahiri plenty of time to do her thing.
I had a few comments/questions about some specific matchups.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
Instant (22)
2 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Timely Reinforcements
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Nahiri, The Harbinger
Sorcery (4)
4 Serum Visions
Land (24)
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Wear // Tear
1 Wrath of God
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Geist of Saint Traft
From my experiences with the list so far, I have had trouble against Tron, Infect, and anything ensnaring bridge.
My sideboard is pretty strongly geared to give me a good game against tron game 2 and 3. I think we should be naturally well positioned against infect with all of our removal, I think it may be poor play on my part. I try to kill their creatures outside of combat, but they always seem to have the right pump spell, or a a way to dodge my paths. I was wondering how you all prioritize using your removal against infect?
As far as ensnaring bridge goes, I always have the feeling that we are short on win conditions in this deck. And it leaves me wanting to have an alternative way to victory aside from attacking. Are there any good options in our colors for win conditions that don't require combat? My mind goes to other planeswalkers for this, or an increase in burn spells.
Overall, do you all have any suggestions for changes to the mainboard/sideboard? Or any questions about card choices? I love to talk through ideal playable options and mix up card selections.
I'm currently playing blue moon. A fairly stock build, but no ancestral visions. However, I feel like the closing speed with the deck just isn't there. And the free wins with a turn 3 blood moon are becoming less and less frequent.
The two decks I am considering are transitioning into UWR nahiri, which seams like a natural step forward from blue moon (having two of the same colors), or Abzan Coco (as a past twin player, I like the idea of having a combo as well as a solid beat down plan).
I'm also considering a look at Jund, but due to the high price tag I tend to shy away from it.
Is there any clear deck of these three that is a cut above the rest? I've been testing with all three and having success- I just bobble between them all and fail to pull the trigger on getting the deck.
Your insight into the pros and cons between the decks would be much appreciated. Which do you think is best suited for an open field of a GP sized event? Who is the top dog?
Maybe this is getting too fancy? Dark-dweller just creates some game breaking interactions that are fun to exploit.
7 Island
2 Mountain
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Steam Vents
1 wandering fumarole
1 desolate lighthouse
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
Creatures(9)
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Harvest Pyre
2 Flame Slash
2 Spell Snare
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Electrolyze
3 Blood Moon
2 Cryptic Command
2 Boom // Bust
2 Vandalblast
2 Gut Shot
1 Sun Droplet
1 Batterskull
1 Boom // Bust
1 Bribery
1 Spellskite
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
2 Negate
I feel like this deck, while grindy, has the ability to succeed in almost all match-ups. The only foreseeable problem is early life gain to stabilize against burn decks. But hopefully the rest of the deck can make up for it.
The lands are still imperfect, not sure the best configuration.
Also, I'm still torn on if it's usually grixis > jeskai in the control mirrors. We lose the counter wars, but play much more threats.
Let me know if you have suggestions!
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Liliana of the veil
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Spell Snare
1 Damnation
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Negate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Illness in the Ranks
2 Dispel
1 Spellskite
1 Shatterstorm
My eyes are currently on Jeskai and Grixis. I played with the comboless jeskai and found it to be quite good, but slow to close a game (which is not a surprise). Perhaps a deck that is a little more threat dense in Grixis would be a solid option.
I havent looked into sultai control, that's an interesting idea.
I was curious as to what you all thought the best blue based control deck would be after the ban. The consensus is that control will be playing 4 ancestral visions main. But with that being said, what shell will it shine in, and with a new meta what will be the best option.
In my mind I see three possibilities: Esper, Jeskai, or Grixis. Each one benefits from the addition of AV. Another option is to include the Thopter sword combo as well.
So the question I bring to you is: What will be the top dog in the control world? and will it include the thopter combo?
My initial thought are either a combo-less version of jeskai or grixis. I felt that jeskai had trouble with emptying their, now with AV we can reload. For Grixis, they are all about 2-for-1 plays and the prospect of goblin dark dweller to replay visions is crazy. I have little experience with the thopter combo.
For me, I play UR simply because I don't have goyfs. For that reason I haven't tested RUG. If more people had access to playsets of goyfs I'm sure it would see more play.
My critique of temur moon is that is does have reduced synergy with moon by virtue of the third color, and with 3 moons main we are less likely to get opponents on turn 3 with a moon which is sometimes a free win. While we play better creatures in temur moon, I find them to suffer in a board stall. In UR moon we had PK for thopters and clique if you played one, these creatures are extremely synergistic with batterskull, a 5/5 vig lifelink flyer can usually win the game on its own and rarely can be blocked. Whereas for temur, your only way to push damage through in a stalled board is with a flipped huntmaster.
Maybe it's a non issue and I'm just being critical, I just wish there was some sort of consistent evasion available.
I'm a fan of flame slash, It kills a majority of problematic monsters we face. However, I would recommend a dismember if the 2nd batterskull is included in their list since the life will be regained more easily.
I'm happy to see the deck continuing to put up some results.
While it is possible to draw more dead cards, the ones in your hand will hopefully be upgraded by some margin, the extra card you draw is still a bonus. Equivalent to the pyromaster advantage at a minimum.
Wurmcoil is a very good card. Deathtouch is a beautiful thing (especially with the two 3 power tokens on the back end). I found that I've won so many games being able to reuse my batterskull though. I find it more resilient than wurmcoil (however I would reconsider if playing a grixis strategy with k. command). The value of recurring threats, with lifelink is phenomenal. Also, the vigilance of batterskull effectively blocks and protects your planeswalker
My "wurmcoil slot" is a replacement for a batterskull, not for a PK. I like PK, I play 3. I would swap out my izzet charm for the chandra because the loot effect is achievable through desolate lighthouse and chandra.
Blue Moon is a deck short on win cons. With any non-interactive card I play, I want to provide a way to win. Pyromaster, I feel does not provide the impact that a Pia and Kiran do at a 4cmc card. PnK can take over a game, block, and attack. Pyromaster's ultimate is also fairly underwhelming. On another note, I want to be playing a creature on turn 4 to help ward off attackers.
I think that Flamecaller, especially with Engulf The Shore spoiled, can shine. at 6cmc, she is the top of our curve. She can close out a game in about 3 turns assuming fetching takes place (maybe less). She provides snapcaster fuel with her redraw effect, as well as a way to ditch unwanted cards such as moons that rot in your hand. Her -x ability is a clean board wipe, one that can clear the board against elves/merfolk/Coco strategies/tokens, and our burn spells can take care of the earlier threats.
Because of the bounce effects, its possible to transition to using a Chandra Flamecaller since her tokens will be excellent after a bounced board