Quote from trancekat »OMG.. ISB! Your still here! I was just looking over your Martin deck yesterday.
I dint get to play anymore, but I still keep an eye out for mtg stuff.
Thanks for the link, I'll rage a peek.
How you've been well.
Well, still here is a vague stance. I check in every few months mostly to see if I have any PMs but all of my new stuff is over on Nexus these days. Ohhhh Marton lol some of the things I did back then I probably wouldn't subject a playgroup to now lol.
Been doing well, I have a kiddo now days and my wife works a lot of nights when I could normally play commander so due to my child my games have been less frequent. I played some 1v1 against a buddy yesterday and it had been the first time playing in like.... two months.
Quote from trancekat »Ps.. I gyess i need to move to mtgnexus. Thank you as always.
There was a very long and annoying history when curse owned salvation that mostly the staff of salvation knew but in short in the last two or three years of being owned by curse we got just flat out zero assistance from developers outside of things that outright broke the site. The curse devs created a deckbuilder tool for the site which was the last thing they did and immediately pulled any assistance from the site after creating it never addressing the myriad of bugs that we attempted to report to them on the tool.
After getting zero attention for a few years curse decided to shut down salvation as they didn't feel they could transition it to other owners. The moderator team and tecnician (Feyd_Ruin) tried to reach out to them to attempt to purchase the site from them but were denied. We were told a final closure date of salvation and Feyd_Ruin began to create MTGNexus with a frenzy as we were planning to move at that point.
Feyd was well under way of development and MTGNexus opened publicly as the closure date that was told to us came close. Then, at the absolute last moment a previous developer of curse bought out the rights to a few sites including MTGSalvation. It was really awkward as we knew that salvation had been sort of long neglected at that point and we had already created a new location via Feyd who was actively improving Nexus. On the flip side, Salvation wasn't closing but we had no idea if it was going to be updated (it hasn't) as we moved forward. Essentially all of the staff at the time was pissed and I would say something like 80% of the staff transitioned to Nexus and dropped salvation. Most of the commander players of salvation also transitioned over to nexus but some just moved over to the new discord that the RC set up (the discord is quite active if you are into that style of thing).
So, we got burned a few times and were tired of it. Nexus was set up and we knew Feyd would be active in giving it upgrades where as salvation had grown stagnant and unsure of its future. To some degree though internet forums are becoming less used and instead more social media stuff is being used these days. I like nexus and while I wouldn't call it anywhere near as active as salvation 5-10 years ago it doesn't feel like the ghost town that sally is these days.
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1 Sliver Queen
Creature (2)
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Spark Double
Instant (3)
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Despark
Sorcery (12)
1 Austere Command
1 Citywide Bust
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dusk // Dawn
1 Farseek
1 Innocent Blood
1 Nature's Lore
1 Primevals' Glorious Rebirth
1 Regrowth
1 Savor the Moment
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Wargate
Artifact (7)
1 Arcane Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Skullclamp
1 Torpor Orb
Enchantment (9)
1 Anointed Procession
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Awakening Zone
1 Martyr's Cause
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Oath of Ajani
1 Oath of Liliana
1 Oath of Teferi
1 Parallel Lives
1 Ajani, the Greathearted
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Domri, Anarch of Bolas
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk, Cursed Huntsman
1 Huatli, Radiant Champion
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General
1 Narset Transcendent
1 Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
Land (39)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Ash Barrens
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 Command Tower
1 Crystal Quarry
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Interplanar Beacon
1 Kher Keep
1 Kor Haven
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Rebirth is a huge amount of logistics to deal with 6-7 planeswalkers all at once, plus being able to activate them twice with Oath of Teferi. I may try Sunbird's Invocation instead and see if that's more manageable for me, since the main thing I didn't like about its performance was how long that turn took. And I should probably practice with the deck so I know all the walker's abilities and don't have to read so much.
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Introduction – Decklist – Changelog – Card Choices – Acknowledgments
Since the original list, it's has changed numerous times, of course. The biggest changes involved two aspects: 1. removing wincons I found boring; 2. trying out cards I thought might be interesting.
I think the first wincon I removed revolved around Gray Merchant of Asphodel. I first replaced Living Death to try to nerf it, because it was just too easy to loop that with plenty of mana and XHD. Same thing with just directly looping Gary with Chainer (especially with two doublers out). So eventually Gary got the axe entirely. Exsanguinate was soon to follow because even if I didn't tutor for it, if I had it in hand and enough mana it became, "And now the game's over." That occurred too often for my tastes; I was leaning on it and wanted more challenging win conditions.
On the matter of interesting cards to try, I like Head Games. I like how that works with full-hand discard like Mindslicer or Myojin of Night's Reach. I like how Homeward Path and Faceless Butcher allow me to play politics by reanimating and returning a creature. I like how Ice Cauldron can rattlesnake an answer in an almost-untouchable place — it's a hilarious card I want to find/make a good home for. I like how Mirage Mirror can enable the doubling of a lot of shenanigans for 2.
So here are my thoughts on the direction I'm trying to go:
Weaponizes madness and stuff.
This dude's cool, too.
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
Creature (31)
1 Deathgreeter
1 Bloodghast
1 Disciple of Griselbrand
1 Myr Retriever
1 Dross Harvester
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Pitiless Plunderer
1 Sifter of Skulls
1 Slum Reaper
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Doom Whisperer
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Noxious Gearhulk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Entomb
1 Withering Boon
1 Corpse Dance
1 Sudden Spoiling
Sorcery (5)
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mutilate
1 Head Games
Artifact (15)
1 Skullclamp
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mirage Mirror
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Unstable Obelisk
1 Aetherworks Marvel
1 Helm of Possession
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Memory Jar
Enchantment (7)
1 Font of Agonies
1 Vampiric Rites
1 Infernal Tribute
1 Mind Slash
1 Necropotence
1 Oppression
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Land (36)
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Deserted Temple
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Marsh Flats
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Petrified Field
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Polluted Delta
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
19 Swamp
Final Parting
Increasing Ambition
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate
Sepulchral Primordial
No Mercy
Fallen Ideal
Dark Deal
Mindslicer
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Burnished Hart
Darkness
Claws of Gix
Viscera Seer
Ambition's Cost
Nirkana Revenant
Defense Grid
Nevinyrral's Disk
Cavern of Souls
Homeward Path
Swamp
—
Liliana of the Dark Realms
Abhorrent Overlord
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Aetherworks Marvel / Vedalken Orrery
Mind Slash
Oppression
Myojin of Night's Reach
Plaguecrafter
Wayfarer's Bauble
Myr Retriever
Dross Harvester
Vampiric Rites
Infernal Tribute
Pitiless Plunderer
Pawn of Ulamog
Agent of Erebos
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Crypt of Agadeem
Vesuva
I'm trying to refocus on variance in games by taking out some tutors for card draw. I'm actually fine with Demonic Tutor staying but it's needed in another deck where it's easier to cast there than Beseech the Queen is here. Final Parting would have been kindof like a black pseudo-Intuition so I can't say it'll never see play in the deck again. I considered Corpse Connoisseur — we'll see if I end up wanting that or Vampiric Tutor for those moments I need to save my hide. Also trying Liliana of the Dark Realms in place of one of the other tutors since tutoring for swamps is harmless. I have a feeling she'll be pretty redundant to the actual ramp and fetches but that emblem is on my bucket list. I also need to test how well ramping goes without Solemn Simulacrum at some point.
Razzy I know would have been amazing as a giant beater, tutor, and sac outlet, but that tutor part is where he's getting benched for now. Torgaar was supposed to be a toolbox piece for bringing somebody's life down from too high or keeping mine afloat — but maybe if I was planning to need the manual override then my other life support wasn't doing too good. Sepulchral Primordial was basically redundancy with Chainer, and to magnify the effect of his ability. In their place, please welcome returning guest Abhorrent "Tokens for Days" Overlord and two brand new guests: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief and Sheoldred, Whispering One.
I read an interesting opinion recently that Vedalken Orrery can also be a useful deterrent to attacks and we're going to test that in place of No Mercy. Enough tokens will be dying that I imagine Aetherworks Marvel would also be good and can do neat tricks with Volrath's Stronghold/Scroll Rack/Vampiric Tutor/Library of Leng, so this is actually a flex slot to switch between Aetherworks and Orrery.
Fallen Ideal is a die-hard sacrifice outlet but has no real benefit from the sacrifice, so now we're going to see what it's like to perform surgery on our opponents' hands with Mind Slash. Along the same lines of discard effects we're bringing in Oppression and Myojin of Night's Reach for Dark Deal and Mindslicer (not that 'Slicer isn't good — we're just going to try something different). Plaguecrafter buttons this up as teammate for Slum Reaper that can get a planeswalker or as a Liliana's Specter if our opponents don't have creatures (Specter was on the list for consideration, but I still want to lean more on removal than discard). I considered adding Bloodgift Demon in place of Doom Whisperer, but that Surveil 2 still needs testing.
Burnished Hart is out for Wayfarer's Bauble and Myr Retriever, but since that's two cards I figure Sudden Spoiling might be enough fog for this deck and cut Darkness.
While Claws of Gix has saved my bacon a time or two, I think Dross Harvester shows some promise for keeping my bacon out of the fire in the first place. Viscera Seer was very often underused by me because, while I wasn't a fan of the timing of the Scry 1 vs draw triggers, I was just always using other outlets. Perhaps the card draw of Vampiric Rites will prove more useful. In place of Ambition's Cost I'm adding the somewhat-similar Infernal Tribute, returning as my sacrifice-a-liability tool. The extra token production may change my mind about Seer someday regarding having card draw vs having scry combined with other card draw, so it's sortof a flex spot between the two, but as a sacrifice outlet it could also become Attrition if I figure I have enough card draw but want more removal.
Finally on the mana/tokens front we'll be trying Pitiless Plunderer instead of Nirkana Revenant and Pawn of Ulamog as back up for Sifter of Skulls, replacing Defense Grid. I may end up liking Smothering Abomination even more.
Somehow I didn't have any graveyard answers other than Chainer himself. I want something not too difficult to recur since an answer might be needed at instant speed. Withered Wretch can be mana intensive but is quite surgical and I've used him before, so we're going to try Agent of Erebos as a wholesale graveyard exile that can be re-used if I happen to get another enchantment on the field after him. Part of the reason for going for the wholesale exile approach is some recent experiences with enchantments and Bruna. Better to just nuke that whole 'yard.
Cavern of Souls and Homeward Path are out for a third B booster land, Crypt of Agadeem, and a discard enabler in the form of Geier Reach Sanitarium. And I figured Vesuva is better here than in another deck where it would only have copied some colors or fetches, so I replaced a Swamp.
Void Winnower
Massacre Wurm
Massacre Wurm is too good to stay out for token control. Void Winnower would keep opponents from blocking with tokens, but not prevent a retaliatory attack. Also I figure the cast-prevention would put a target on me. I was initially worried about outright killing a player with Massacre Wurm, but if they have enough tokens for that to happen then they were getting ready to win anyway and there's a decent chance their stuff was not worth stealing to use against the other players. Or I just sac the Wurm before the -2/-2 trigger resolves and they don't die.
Ashnod's Altar
Bog Initiate
Shred Memory
Diabolic Intent
Dimir House Guard
Fleshwrither
Beseech the Queen
Damnation
All Is Dust
Expedition Map
Wayfarer's Bauble
Bloodgift Demon
Phyrexian Obliterator
Massacre Wurm
Abhorrent Overlord
Vedalken Orrery
Vampiric Rites
Helm of Possession
Mesmeric Orb
Darkness
Demonic Tutor
Final Parting
Increasing Ambition
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Nevinyrral's Disk
Mutilate
Nirkana Revenant
Sword of the Animist
Demonlord Belzenlok
Void Winnower
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate
Doom Whisperer
Ambition's Cost
Font of Agonies
Ashnod's Altar and Bog Initiate were supposed to be a backup to Phyrexian Altar. Once I get a copy of Pitiless Plunderer, that plus any free sac outlet will serve the same redundancy better. So now I've got Helm of Possession and Mesmeric Orb (testing).
My weak tutors were just that, so I'm going back to good ones. Diabolic Intent may still be a good one to try but may also be a dead card at times. In place of Shred Memory comes Darkness, because surprising folks with a black Fog is still on my bucket list. Then Dimir House Guard, Fleshwrither, and Beseech the Queen are all being replaced by the classic Demonic Tutor, the deck-thematic Increasing Ambition, the badass Razaketh, and Final Parting because I want to try this option over stuff like Buried Alive.
Wipes — I had more wipes in the draw version — don't need that many for my group. Damnation is great, but I want to be able to hit other stuff with Nevinyrral's Disk (plus I used the older, more eldritch-horror art). All is Dust doesn't hit artifacts for the most part, and short Toxic Deluge I wanted another -X/-X solution so Mutilate is in for testing (also older, nightmare/Chainer themed art).
Land stuff — Expedition Map and Wayfarer's Bauble out for Nirkana Revenant and Sword of Rampant Growth to lean into the basic land mana production a little more. Can't wait to put the sword on Mindslicer or XHD.
Beatsticks — Arena-on-a-stick out to test Belzenlok's card accessing. Phyrexian Obliterator out for a different beatstick in the shape of Void Winnower now that devotion doesn't matter except for Nykthos. I removed Massacre Wurm because it can be a "surprise, you lose!" card if somebody has enough tokens, and I want to avoid having that kind option immediately available. It's why Exsanguinate isn't here. Torgaar replaces it so I can fiddle around with life totals to knock lifegain decks down or keep myself alive (20 life is quite comfortable, really). Abhorrent Overlord may someday see play again, but it forms a rather easy loop with just Chainer and Phyrexian Altar, so let's see if I can steal somebody else's ETB token producer for loops and see how Doom Whisperer fares.
Vedalken Orrery is also one of those cards I would love to have in play every game. In its stead, Ambition's Cost is the last piece of the draw-only version that I'm leaving in for now because it's on-theme. And since I pay life to stuff a lot, I'm going to see how Font of Agonies does, replacing Vampiric Rites.
Thought Gorger
Imp's Mischief
Ice Cauldron
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Dimir House Guard
Diabolic Intent
Dark Deal
All is Dust
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Gemstone Array
Ravenous Trap
Tortured Existence
Warping Wail
Infernal Tribute
Inventors' Fair
Crypt of Agadeem
Harvester of Souls
Memory Jar
Shred Memory
Expedition Map
Defense Grid
Vampiric Rites
Swamp
Swamp
Smothering Abomination
Sadistic Hypnotist is a pretty easy change, and should be able to do a lot more work than Mesmeric Fiend. Furthermore in interest of putting cards in the graveyard, Memory Jar is in for Gemstone Array.
Shred Memory is in for Ravenous Trap because I won't be facing a Balthor Shift anytime soon, and there are some good CMC 2 targets if I want to Transmute. Expedition Map will be more helpful than Tortured Existence and is probably a better backup Urborg than Blanket of Night.
Defense Grid is replacing Warping Wail as a more proactive counter deterrent. It could also prevent some EOT shenanigans, but won't hinder Chainer or my sac outlets.
With my relatively recent interest in token producers due to a Meren deck with Grave Pact effects, Vampiric Rites is going to do better work than Infernal Tribute, though I'm probably going to miss Tribute a little bit.
Inventors' Fair was pretty iffy as an artifact tutor since it requires three to activate. Crypt of Agadeem was in to test as a third possible ritual-land. Since it was also a testing slot these are both back to Swamps for now. Still might test the Crypt, but I need to observe how many creatures I typically have in my graveyard. I suspect I just get a lot of mileage out of the first 3-4 I get and nobody stays there very long. Also, the artifact creatures don't help and they're the regulars.
I'm also appreciative of the insight and discussions in this thread, especially from ProfessorWhen, GloriousGoose, and benjameenbear.
I must also acknowledge that I've probably gleaned a fair bit from decklists and good discussions had in other mono-black or Bx threads by: GloriousGoose, toctheyounger77, bobthefunny, Outcryqq, and MrCoupon.
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There are many forms of backup recursion you could use, too. Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker can keep bringing the Apostles back (doesn't work with Monument above). Reanimate/Animate Dead/Necromancy are good one-shots. Phyrexian Reclamation/Corpse Dance are repeatable, but by that time you're probably spending probably more than the demons would have cost to draw and cast them normally.
Living Death and a way to get it back (such as XHD) is also a way to recover from a wipe (just be careful of what's in other people's graveyards).
Edit: Actually, I forgot white options such as Gift of Immortality, Angelic Renewal, Ghostway, and Teferi's Protection.
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Flying rather makes up for lack of trample, I think. If there's something that flying can't get past then there's probably something in the deck that can move it out of the way. Or at the very least just hammer away at the blockers.
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Cavalier of Night — Simply because of it bringing back a CMC <= 3 creature when it dies, it could have some synergy in more casual Chainer decks.
Dread Presence — Honorable mention for being a Nightmare, but probably doesn't actually do enough from swampfall.
Epicure of Blood — Likely functional along with the lifegainers and Blood Artist-type critters. Probably only room for it in more casual decks, as tuned decks and higher are often tight for space, and this thing doesn't do anything on its own. (Also probably has a high potential of being win-more.)
Scheming Symmetry — This one I like and want to test. I wonder how well it will do as a politicking tool, especially when I can mill or steal their chosen card.
Vilis, Broker of Blood — Where Razaketh is great for tutoring (so much so that I don't run him in my build because he's just Too Much™), this guy feels like the card-draw counterpart to Razaketh. I really like the high-risk and high-reward this demon offers. Going to have to test him. The idea of drawing 3 cards every time I use Chainer makes me salivate. And not just that but he comes with an ability to trigger that. B and 2 life for 2 cards, and just target his giant 8/8 body with the -1/-1? All the yes.
Prismite — Technically another way of getting B from C (thinking of Ashnod's Altar here), but Bog Initiate and Gemstone Array are probably better at that.
Salvager of Ruin — This one is interesting. Restrictive on timing/context, but being able to return any type of permanent could be nice.
Lotus Field — I don't like that it enters tapped, but it doesn't require the sacrificial lands be untapped and it has hexproof, which are decent upsides over stuff like Lotus Vale. I'll probably be adding Prismatic Vista instead, but this one's not terrible.
If you think there's anything else that should have caught me eye or you're curious what I have to say about it, let me know and I'll edit it in.