IMO [card]Avaricious Dragon{/card] doesnt work in this deck.
He (or she I suppose ) really works best in an aggro deck where the deck curves out at 4 mana.
I have never seriously tried to add it to my dragons decks (although I had tried it out in the past briefly) but I have played with AVaricious a fair bit, and although he can be good, he can also wreck your easily. Savy players will let you resolve him, and then wait till the end of your end step, after you have discarded away your hand to remove him. When that happens, it hurts and can really set you back, as now you are empty handed and top decking.
If you curve out at 4 mana, it isnt as rough, but when your playing a 5 or 6 mana curve, it really throws you off tempo.
And just being aware of those situations, doesnt keep it from happening either, despite our best efforts.
If he is played, the deck needs to really be worked around him for him to work is what I have discovered.
Your probably right, I just value being able to block, and in this particular deck, I think Sky Scourer would give me the same things that Bearer of Silence gives the deck (as I dont at all rely on his ability to make an opponent sac a creature as it so seldom has occurred ) which is a t2 flying beater. And although he is not 2/1 - he gives us the ability to drop a t3 ghostfire on him, and attack for 3 or 4 beginning on that turn. (Does equipping an artifact count as casting a colorless spell by the way? )
I had sleeved up Cody's list also and gave it a some test runs. Bearer of Silence just never did anything for me, it was to iffy in the games I played. I never was able to use its ability and it not being able to block put me in a bind more than once. Getting that out early and slapping Ghostfire Blade on it is just really , really nice. I think going forward if I was to get more serious I would possibly swap out Bearer of Silence for Sky Scourer.
There are enough colorless spells to cast which allows me to use his +1/0 ability more so than I have been able to use Bearer of SIlence's ability. And he can chump block, and when you have a ghostfire blade on him, its nice to be able to block if need be. At least I get the option. Also by doing that, it opens up the mana base to where I do not have to have the pain lands.
Or possibly some combination of Sky Scourer and Bearer of Silence (3/1?)
Its funny, I keep hearing how the various versions of Jeskai are so well positioned right now i this meta - but yet it seems like there is so little interest in the deck. Scasseden, have you any updates on your list above by chance?
I enjoyed the write up, very well done by the way. In regards to your comments about how your not sure how this deck matches up VS. R/B Dragons. I can tell you, I struggled mightily with my Dragons list, against my friend who plays a similar version of Jeskai. Basically if he got a SFG in play, and I didn't have an immediate answer - I was toast.
Lugger, how has this list been working out for you? ANy changes to it, since you posted it?
I think I would drop Ob Nix, for another Chandra myself. I am also beginning to feel like transgress the mind is just so good right now, I maybe would go x2 Transgress and x1 Duress MB. Are you still satisfied running x4 shambling vents and x1 Hissing Q? Does it ever hurt you having 5 lands that no matter what come into play tapped?
Also, how have you done against coco bant and if you have had a chance, against the updated Hardened Scales?
Not to mention the latest deck list of Hardened Scales that has gained all of that focus since Houston GP is a really bad match up as well. Just another thing making it tough for this deck to consistently compete right niw.
Rathi Dragon has always been my favorite image from MTG.
Jace, Telepath Unbound despite my dislike of the card, I think is just beautifully done. Stormchaser Mage has caught my eye since its release. Fireblast is another I have always really liked.
Ultimate Price has become my weapon of choice against rally out of the SB to handle the Husk. Otherwise as Lugger says, I am trying to stick to my game plan and ignore them as much as possible (other than the HUSK) to get my game plan on and beat them from the skies as quickly as possible.
I think UPrice has become "good again" and will only be better as the meta changes over the next month.
I ran Dragonlord Servant at the HOU GP. He really was a solid play for me. Sometimes he bit it to removal, which of course was awesome, because that removal that they dont have to hit my dragons with.
That is my thinking with Drana. A must remove threat that stretches their removal before the dragons arrive. Maybe we could run 3x Drana and 3x Servant. But isnt Servant kinda a dude if you dont get it out before turn 4?
What are opinions on mardu scout? Its RR cost could be tricky on turn 2, but its dash is 1R. Its similar to a lightning strike. It could easily take out an early turn opposing blocker or they take 3.
Dragonlord Servant after T4 is still not bad. If your struggling to draw dragons, he is at the least another, and one of the few, cheap creatures we can play without consuming all of our mana for the turn, that can serve as a sufficient blocker. And it varies due to the situation as to why were going into later turns, but if Im in a grindy game, and can drop a Servant, he allows me to do more with my mana in conjuction with a dragon. He certainly is not a sylvan advocate providing value like that later in game - but he still synergizes well with the deck, which is helpful at times.
I dont think Mardu Scout is preferable in this deck. As this deck is evolving it appears to me it is moving away from red mana. Gerry T on SCG today has a video up of him playing the Grixis version which is growing in popularity, and even the decks staying only with Red and Black, it seems is moving more to a heavy black mana base to take advantage of better value cards in Grasp, Drana, and Kalitas. Flamewake is being dropped more and more in all versions, leaving only our T4 plays of Thunderbreak and still often PKNalaar requiring RR. In a deck already vulnerable to missing a mana drop, or mana screw, adding another card to compete, especially early on just doesn't seem like the right move currently.
Personally I think going a bit more heavy on black is the way for this deck to go. I have n ot put a list together, so am brainstorming on the spot, but Im thinking something along the following is what I want to try next.
I could even see dropping down to 24 lands with the 3 dragonlord servants. Perhaps throw in another Drana, or a MD Kalitas or PKNalaar depending on your prefernce. I like the thought of a build like this as it seems this deck does struggle from mana issues fairly often, and 27 of the playable cards in a list like this require 3 mana or less. We have several 3 toughness creatures (DLS,TE,DRANA,), creatures that scale through out the game (in HBW), we have good amount of very flexible removal, we have card draw, we have creatures that can grow and creatures which can pump up out other creatures (HBW and Drana), making less powerful creatures like a Dragonlord Servant, into something a bit more threatening as a 1/3 vs a 2/4 is pretty darn substantial in a hurry. Plus with 1 Servant in play, 31 of our cards can be played for 3 mana or less. We still have plenty of flying evasion (11 cards), and most of the other things which allowed this deck to do well over the last few months.
I ran Dragonlord Servant at the HOU GP. He really was a solid play for me. Sometimes he bit it to removal, which of course was awesome, because that removal that they dont have to hit my dragons with. In my 1 MU against ramp he was an all star. I won 2-0, but both games he came down on T2, allowing me to go T3 Thunderbreak and T4 KSF. The guy I was playing against was blown away and could not believe he had not seen others playing DragonLord Servant. I certainly think that DLS has a place in the deck, and after rotation, perhaps more than ever.
Eldrazi Skyspawner is great, and some deck lists have ran him successfully, as in making top 8's in events. To me the 3 mana spot is the most contested slot in the deck, between Hordeling outburst, Drana, Flamewake, Engineer, and Skyspawner.
Once we lose KSF with his dash ability, and we have to bring in either other 4 drop dragon's (Avaricious Dragon ) or other 5 drop dragons without haste/dash, Dragonlord Servant and Skyspawner may become very needed to keep the deck on pace.
I have dismantled it, but as best as I recall my decklist from GP HOU was as follows:
absolutely, blue I think is choice because I feel opponents respect having a blue untapped more so than green. But that' just my opinion. Not to mention should you decide to act on the splash of blue, you have everything from Jace, to dispel to consider including into your deck. When considering the "poker" element of Magic, blue adds a lot.
3 words for you my friend in regards to coco bant.... self-inflicted wound is a 4 of right now for our SB. One of the things that makes Dragons so good right now is how well we match p against some very popular and dominant decks. Rally and CoCo and Ramp in particular. For CoCo you have to SB in self-inflicted wounds. Its not by any means a give me match up, but if you draw your SB cards after game 1 and your deck decently does what it is suppose to do, that is our MU to take against CoCo. And do not foerget about transgress the mind either...
Against wingmate roc again transgress the mind comes in really handy, as does murderous cut. If you can support grasp of darkness than that helps too. But M-Cut is our best spot removal spell hands down. Playing 4 is not to many honestly, but 2 MB is very solid, and having 1 or even 2 more to bring in from SB is alright as well.
Also - I already posted this just a few posts above, but RB Dragons can easily support a very small splash of blue in the deck. With COCO Bant in the meta, even if you dont bring in any blue cards to your SB, just having 1 island or sunken hollow allows us to SB in radiant flames which is just a killer in this meta right now primarily because of coco bant. It is just about a must have imo for the SB for as long as coco bant is expected. We lose the instant speed of kozilek's return, but taking out 3 toughness creatures is really important, and worth trading off the instant speed, at least for now.
Great Job! Thanks for the update. Good call on the Wild Slash being the sacred cow. As burn and burst is the core of the deck. With my limited spell package, better creature removal is what I was aiming for in my latest list. Interesting that you went heavier on the spells and less on the creatures. I like the idea. And apparently it has worked for you.
How useful was read the bones? And did you get a chance to cast K-command?
With fewer creatures, what were you looking for in starting hands?
Thanks! The number of creatures was mostly just determined by card availability, though like you I'm not so keen on Thopter Engineer, albeit without having played with it in paper yet, due to its lack of aggressiveness.
I was pretty pleased with Read the Bones, actually; that was one of the cards that stood out in my mind. I cast both of them in a row game one against Green Ramp, and they gave me a lot of fuel without really setting me back, as I didn't feel too pressured in that matchup (though trying to deal with World Breaker was ... interesting). Against Dark Jeskai, it was basically the only thing that could give me any value, though I felt pretty outmatched against that deck regardless. I don't think it came up in the other matches.
I got to cast Kolaghan's Command once, against Dark Jeskai; I think I shot a Soulfire Grand Master or Monastery Mentor and reclaimed a Thunderbreak. It was good in that it provided value, but ultimately, again, that was a losing fight. Not sure what I should do to improve the matchup against grindy decks, and especially versus counterspells. I guess I could play Duress?
I did trade the K-Command into the store after playing with it, as I couldn't resist what was to me a minor windfall, so unfortunately it won't be able to appear in my list in future.
Opening hands: Honestly, I'm a little traumatized by those strings of mulligans that just go disastrously wrong (from playing previous decks, not this one), so I basically just keep anything that has two to five lands. However, I feel good when I have at least one two-to-three-drop (Forerunner of Slaughter or Flamewake Phoenix, one Dragon, and a couple removal spells. The Dragon element seems to be the one most frequently missing (or, at least, it hurts more due to Draconic Roar); I do wish we had one more dragon to put in as a two-of for consistency. A couple more copies of strong attacking two-drops would be nice, too.
I'm hoping to play again Wednesday if I can, this time at a different shop. We'll see how it goes!
thopter engineer actually has a level of aggressiveness in that it gives artifact creatures haste. SO if your playing those along with the Parents, and Hangarbacks, your increasing the aggressiveness of all of those artifact creatures. I see players not use to playing Thopter Engineer cast it and forget that the thopter token can attack the turn it comes into play.
Different folks, different strokes but when it comes to ramp and world breaker - I have been playing infinte obliteration in my side board almost exclusively for the ramp match up. I ran 3 in HOU, and ramp players have recently made it a bit easier for us as most lists now almost without exception run 3 or 4 world breakers, and then lesser combinations of Ugin, Kozilek, etc. So in matches World Breaker is always my 1st target should I draw Obliteration when playing them.
Kolaghan's COmmand is a great card for the grindy match ups you may find yourself in, such as exactly how you described your scenario above. Thats the nuts right there, remove an opponent creature (and Monastery Mentor and SF Grandmaster are really bad for us if we do not remove them quickly, so fantastic time for you to draw it!) AND get back one of our main threats in a grindy game is really a big deal. Also not to mention, K-COmmand is also really good in the mirror match ups, as it kills artifacts, as in all of those thopters! Its a great value card. And yes, either Transgress the mind or duress are really good in grindy match ups as well. Transgress is really solid in the current meta, with alot of choice targets ina lmost any MU you come across except the Atarka type MU's, in which case I prefer duress.
Ugg just read you traded in your K-Command, lol.
If your hungry for more dragons, I suggest considering adding in Sarkhan, the Dragon Speaker. He gives good utility in allowing you to attack with a dragon the turn he comes into play (and if that is your only dragon, it will satisfy the Draconic Roar) or if your in a bind, he can be immediate removal. Compared to the other dragon options that could work in the deck, I feel he is the best value, especially at the mana cost.
I would also suggest that compared to some lists, your a bit light on creatures your running. Especially if your running some card draw, which I think is a wise thing to do. But you might experiment with your creature to removal ratio and see if you have better results.
How many more events are there prior to hardened scales rotating out of standard? Once it does, is there any hope for this deck in standard or does it absolutely live and die with Scales?
I think your list is decent. Ramp is actually a fairly decent matchup for us. Transgress the Mind certainly does help, but when our deck does what its suppose to do, we are favored in that matchup.
<So not to be the debbie downer - but this deck is posibly dead come rotation. I sort of want to shift to planning what this deck may look like after rotation and if it is still worth playing.
I am thinking this deck needs to go more black heavy to take advantage of the early turn fliers that black offers such as Drana in particular, and grasp of darkness, if this deck is to continue to be competitive. Anxious to hear what others think.>
Please don't talk about rotation until SOI is entirely spoiled. There are still plenty of legitimate tournaments to be determined in OGW standard and attention ought to be paid there. If you want to talk about rotation, SNCD is a great place to do so. Thanks! -- Lugger
He (or she I suppose ) really works best in an aggro deck where the deck curves out at 4 mana.
I have never seriously tried to add it to my dragons decks (although I had tried it out in the past briefly) but I have played with AVaricious a fair bit, and although he can be good, he can also wreck your easily. Savy players will let you resolve him, and then wait till the end of your end step, after you have discarded away your hand to remove him. When that happens, it hurts and can really set you back, as now you are empty handed and top decking.
If you curve out at 4 mana, it isnt as rough, but when your playing a 5 or 6 mana curve, it really throws you off tempo.
And just being aware of those situations, doesnt keep it from happening either, despite our best efforts.
If he is played, the deck needs to really be worked around him for him to work is what I have discovered.
Perhaps a mono red deck?
4 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Village Messenger
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Ember-Eye Wolf
3 Reckless Bushwacker
3 Avaricious Dragon
2 thopter engineer
4 Thunderbreak Dragon
4 draconic roar
4 fiery temper
3 tormenting voice
2 expedite
LANDS: 24
16 mountains
4 smoldering marsh
4 of whatever the new etb tapped black/ red land is
Id pull out avaricious, and have available in SB things like
4 transgress the mind
4 ultimate price
4 roast
Just a thought..
There are enough colorless spells to cast which allows me to use his +1/0 ability more so than I have been able to use Bearer of SIlence's ability. And he can chump block, and when you have a ghostfire blade on him, its nice to be able to block if need be. At least I get the option. Also by doing that, it opens up the mana base to where I do not have to have the pain lands.
Or possibly some combination of Sky Scourer and Bearer of Silence (3/1?)
I enjoyed the write up, very well done by the way. In regards to your comments about how your not sure how this deck matches up VS. R/B Dragons. I can tell you, I struggled mightily with my Dragons list, against my friend who plays a similar version of Jeskai. Basically if he got a SFG in play, and I didn't have an immediate answer - I was toast.
Lugger, how has this list been working out for you? ANy changes to it, since you posted it?
I think I would drop Ob Nix, for another Chandra myself. I am also beginning to feel like transgress the mind is just so good right now, I maybe would go x2 Transgress and x1 Duress MB. Are you still satisfied running x4 shambling vents and x1 Hissing Q? Does it ever hurt you having 5 lands that no matter what come into play tapped?
Also, how have you done against coco bant and if you have had a chance, against the updated Hardened Scales?
Sorry for all the questions.
Jace, Telepath Unbound despite my dislike of the card, I think is just beautifully done. Stormchaser Mage has caught my eye since its release.
Fireblast is another I have always really liked.
I think UPrice has become "good again" and will only be better as the meta changes over the next month.
Dragonlord Servant after T4 is still not bad. If your struggling to draw dragons, he is at the least another, and one of the few, cheap creatures we can play without consuming all of our mana for the turn, that can serve as a sufficient blocker. And it varies due to the situation as to why were going into later turns, but if Im in a grindy game, and can drop a Servant, he allows me to do more with my mana in conjuction with a dragon. He certainly is not a sylvan advocate providing value like that later in game - but he still synergizes well with the deck, which is helpful at times.
I dont think Mardu Scout is preferable in this deck. As this deck is evolving it appears to me it is moving away from red mana. Gerry T on SCG today has a video up of him playing the Grixis version which is growing in popularity, and even the decks staying only with Red and Black, it seems is moving more to a heavy black mana base to take advantage of better value cards in Grasp, Drana, and Kalitas. Flamewake is being dropped more and more in all versions, leaving only our T4 plays of Thunderbreak and still often PKNalaar requiring RR. In a deck already vulnerable to missing a mana drop, or mana screw, adding another card to compete, especially early on just doesn't seem like the right move currently.
Personally I think going a bit more heavy on black is the way for this deck to go. I have n ot put a list together, so am brainstorming on the spot, but Im thinking something along the following is what I want to try next.
4 Kolaghans, Storm's Fury
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Thopter Engineer
4 Hangarback Walker
3 dragonlord servant
4 draconic roar
2 transgress the mind
2 murderous cut
3 grasp of darkness
2 Read the Bones
LANDS:
4 polluted Delta
4 wooded fothills
4 bloodstained mire
4 smoldering marsh
1 sunken hollow
2 haven of the dragons spirit
4 swamp
2 mountain
I could even see dropping down to 24 lands with the 3 dragonlord servants. Perhaps throw in another Drana, or a MD Kalitas or PKNalaar depending on your prefernce. I like the thought of a build like this as it seems this deck does struggle from mana issues fairly often, and 27 of the playable cards in a list like this require 3 mana or less. We have several 3 toughness creatures (DLS,TE,DRANA,), creatures that scale through out the game (in HBW), we have good amount of very flexible removal, we have card draw, we have creatures that can grow and creatures which can pump up out other creatures (HBW and Drana), making less powerful creatures like a Dragonlord Servant, into something a bit more threatening as a 1/3 vs a 2/4 is pretty darn substantial in a hurry. Plus with 1 Servant in play, 31 of our cards can be played for 3 mana or less. We still have plenty of flying evasion (11 cards), and most of the other things which allowed this deck to do well over the last few months.
Eldrazi Skyspawner is great, and some deck lists have ran him successfully, as in making top 8's in events. To me the 3 mana spot is the most contested slot in the deck, between Hordeling outburst, Drana, Flamewake, Engineer, and Skyspawner.
Once we lose KSF with his dash ability, and we have to bring in either other 4 drop dragon's (Avaricious Dragon ) or other 5 drop dragons without haste/dash, Dragonlord Servant and Skyspawner may become very needed to keep the deck on pace.
I have dismantled it, but as best as I recall my decklist from GP HOU was as follows:
2 dragonlord servant
4 jace, vryn's prodigy
2 flamewake phonex
3 thopter engineer
4 thunderbreak regent
4 kolaghan's the storm fury
PLANESWALKERS: 2
2 sarkhan, the dragon speaker
HOCUS POKUS:14
4 draconic roar
2 transgress the mind
2 murderous cut
3 fiery impulse
1 roast
1 ultimate price
1 duress
2 haven of the spirit dragon
4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
2 smoldering marsh
2 sunken hollow
1 swamp
3 mountain
4 shivan reef
3 self-inflicted wound
3 infinite obliteration
2 transgress the mind
1 ruinous path
1 ultimate price
3 radiant flames
2 can not remember
Against wingmate roc again transgress the mind comes in really handy, as does murderous cut. If you can support grasp of darkness than that helps too. But M-Cut is our best spot removal spell hands down. Playing 4 is not to many honestly, but 2 MB is very solid, and having 1 or even 2 more to bring in from SB is alright as well.
Also - I already posted this just a few posts above, but RB Dragons can easily support a very small splash of blue in the deck. With COCO Bant in the meta, even if you dont bring in any blue cards to your SB, just having 1 island or sunken hollow allows us to SB in radiant flames which is just a killer in this meta right now primarily because of coco bant. It is just about a must have imo for the SB for as long as coco bant is expected. We lose the instant speed of kozilek's return, but taking out 3 toughness creatures is really important, and worth trading off the instant speed, at least for now.
thopter engineer actually has a level of aggressiveness in that it gives artifact creatures haste. SO if your playing those along with the Parents, and Hangarbacks, your increasing the aggressiveness of all of those artifact creatures. I see players not use to playing Thopter Engineer cast it and forget that the thopter token can attack the turn it comes into play.
Different folks, different strokes but when it comes to ramp and world breaker - I have been playing infinte obliteration in my side board almost exclusively for the ramp match up. I ran 3 in HOU, and ramp players have recently made it a bit easier for us as most lists now almost without exception run 3 or 4 world breakers, and then lesser combinations of Ugin, Kozilek, etc. So in matches World Breaker is always my 1st target should I draw Obliteration when playing them.
Kolaghan's COmmand is a great card for the grindy match ups you may find yourself in, such as exactly how you described your scenario above. Thats the nuts right there, remove an opponent creature (and Monastery Mentor and SF Grandmaster are really bad for us if we do not remove them quickly, so fantastic time for you to draw it!) AND get back one of our main threats in a grindy game is really a big deal. Also not to mention, K-COmmand is also really good in the mirror match ups, as it kills artifacts, as in all of those thopters! Its a great value card. And yes, either Transgress the mind or duress are really good in grindy match ups as well. Transgress is really solid in the current meta, with alot of choice targets ina lmost any MU you come across except the Atarka type MU's, in which case I prefer duress.
Ugg just read you traded in your K-Command, lol.
If your hungry for more dragons, I suggest considering adding in Sarkhan, the Dragon Speaker. He gives good utility in allowing you to attack with a dragon the turn he comes into play (and if that is your only dragon, it will satisfy the Draconic Roar) or if your in a bind, he can be immediate removal. Compared to the other dragon options that could work in the deck, I feel he is the best value, especially at the mana cost.
I would also suggest that compared to some lists, your a bit light on creatures your running. Especially if your running some card draw, which I think is a wise thing to do. But you might experiment with your creature to removal ratio and see if you have better results.
Good luck!
<So not to be the debbie downer - but this deck is posibly dead come rotation. I sort of want to shift to planning what this deck may look like after rotation and if it is still worth playing.
Bye bye flamewake phoenix and Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. Bye Bye fetch lands. Bye bye murderous cut.
I am thinking this deck needs to go more black heavy to take advantage of the early turn fliers that black offers such as Drana in particular, and grasp of darkness, if this deck is to continue to be competitive. Anxious to hear what others think.>
Please don't talk about rotation until SOI is entirely spoiled. There are still plenty of legitimate tournaments to be determined in OGW standard and attention ought to be paid there. If you want to talk about rotation, SNCD is a great place to do so. Thanks! -- Lugger