All users will need to merge their MTGSalvation account with a new or existing Twitch account starting Sept 25th. You can merge your accounts by clicking here. Have questions? Learn more here.
Unstable Q&A with Mark Rosewater
The Dos and Don'ts of Silver-Border Commander
Word of Command: Un-believable
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Quote from Deedlit11 ยป
    The question of course is, does this give us a better start? We would have to get going by the fourth Words of Wisdom or earlier.

    Do we have any way to get Black Lotus out of the graveyard if we use Sands of Delirium instead of Perpetual Timepiece? I don't see one, and without that switch the Replenish starting hand doesn't stand a chance. If I'm missing something and we can actually use Sands to dump most of our enchantments into the graveyard and still reuse Black Lotus, then we could probably get going on the third Words of Wisdom.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Sorry for the confusion. That last sentence was meant for theoretical future improvements for the start where we might be free to draw extra cards of our choice from those first three Words of Wisdoms. When we get those 2 extra cards we might be able to create lots of Sphinxes before the third Words of Wisdom, but we are certainly not there at the moment.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I currently don't think we are close to adding a hyperstage. The ideas in that post work as far as they go, but all are missing a critical component. Most importantly: How to trigger a beneficial effect from putting a copy of something transitiony on the stack. Without causing problems from resolving triggers in the wrong order, but with enough power to be repeatable...

    There is a small range of viable effects we can use and finding cards that implement those AND have useful limitations... yeah, I have not a lot of hope for that.

    EDIT: We can still improve the start. By drawing Perpetual Timepiece instead of Vedalken Orrery we can keep the Spellweaver Volute alive by milling an instant and don't need to redraw it. We can also retrieve the Orrery via Indomitable Creativity for another extra draw. If we draw Allay and March of the Machines before the creativity cast we should be able to get an extra 5 layers worth of Consecrated Sphinxes before the next Words of Wisdom.

    By using Allay buybacks we can get some extra Swarm Intelligences before we cast the Indomitable Creativity, so retrieving extra creatures/artifacts should not be a significant cost. Then, thanks to March of the Machines we get an extra layer of red mana for each Black Lotus retrieval. We can also reuse Mirror of Fate and Perpetual Timepiece, so we can use instants and sorceries from the graveyard. instead of bouncing Copy Enchantment with the Minion of Tevesh Szat we kill Goblin Gardeners and bounce Primeval Titan to gain life. then we use that life to cast Rude Awakening via Spellweaver Helix. We get a layer worth of green mana thanks to Swarm Intelligence. We use that green mana to flashback Chatter of the Squirrel triggering a layer worth of Spellweaver Volutes. We destroy the Volute tokens, so each time we resolve a trigger we actually get to cast the instant and get a layer worth of Swarm Intelligence trigger. Each of those then gives us a copy of Battle Cry untapping some hasty Metallurgeons. (Sadly not a layer because we can't increase their number cheaply.) Each of those creates mana by destroying Su-Chi and we cast Allay with buyback, gaining another layer from Swarm Intelligence.

    The next best card to draw will probably be Psychic Battle. After that we should use one less Words of Wisdom for the setup.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Another start, using Indomitable Creativity to retrieve extra cards:

    Mox Emerald, Tropical Island, Channel, Black Lotus, Omniscience, Consecrated Sphinx, Words of Wisdom.
    Play them, draw 4: Spellweaver Volute, Vedalken Orrery, Swarm Intelligence, Rude Awakening.
    Play them, draw 6, leave one Sphinx trigger on the stack: Perpetual Timepiece, Opalescence, Dual Nature, Copy Enchantment, Indomitable Creativity, Cowardice.
    Play Timepiece, mill Minion of Tevesh Szat, Chatter of the Squirrel and exile Timepiece to put Lotus and Volute into the library.
    Resolve the Sphinx trigger and draw 2: Lotus and Volute.

    Play Opalescence. Play Dual Nature, get token. Play Copy Enchantment as Swarm Intelligence, get two tokens. Play Cowardice. Play Black Lotus, sac it for 3 red.

    Play Indomitable Creativity targeting the Mox, Copy Enchantment, Swarm Intelligence and Cowardice. Cowardice and 4 Swarm Intelligence triggers. Resolve the Cowardices to bounce the enchantments. Replay Copy Enchantment as itself, tokens become Dual Nature. Replay Swarm Intelligence.

    Resolve the 1st Swarm Intelligence. Target Swarm Intelligence tokens. Resolve the Indomitable Creativity and put Mirror of Fate, Goblin Bushwhacker, Spellweaver Helix and Mimic Vat into play.

    Sac the Mirror, put Timepiece and Words into the library. Play Cowardice. Resolve the 2nd Swarm Intelligence. Target Vat, Cowardice, Copy Enchantment and Consecrated Sphinx. Resolve the cowardice triggers. Resolve the Indomitable Creativity and put Timepiece into play.

    Play Copy Enchantment as itself, tokens become Dual Nature (8 DN). Play Timepiece, mill Words and exile Timepiece to put Mirror, Lotus and Minion of Tevesh Szat into the library. Resolve the 3rd Swarm Intelligence, targeting Bushwhacker tokens. Resolve Indomitable Creativity and put Mirror, Lotus and Minion into play.

    Sac the Mirror, put Timepiece and some other cards into the library. Replay Cowardice. Resolve the 4th Swarm Intelligence. Target Helix, Copy Enchantment, Bushwhacker and Minion. Let Cowardice resolve. Resolve the Indomitable Creativity and put Timepiece into play.

    Sac Lotus for 3 red. Exile Timepiece to put Lotus and Mirror into the library. Resolve the original Indomitable Creativity and put Lotus into play. Sac Lotus for 3 red.

    Play Copy Enchantment as Dual Nature, get tokens (18 DN).

    Play Minion, get tokens. Play kicked Bushwhacker to give those Minions haste. Use 17 of them to bounce Copy Enchantment. Each time replay it as Dual Nature in response to the token destruction trigger. Use the last 2 Minions to bounce Bushwhacker and Minion. (18*2^17 ~ 2^21 DN)

    Repeat for the other 5 red mana. (~2^2^2^2^2^2^21 > 2^^9 DN)

    Play Sphinx, get tokens. Play Volute on Words. Flashback Chatter of the Squirrel. Cast Words via Volute, triggering all those Sphinxes. The cards in the library include Mirror, which allows setting up more cards to draw - we won't deck ourselves.

    This improves the previous start by one resolved Words of Wisdom
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oops, I completely forgot we have additional colorless from Channel. Also, I think we need to use Tropical Island + Rude Awakening in order to have blue mana available for Ghosthelm Courier.

    So Mox Emerald, Tropical Island, Channel, Black Lotus, Omniscience, Consecrated Sphinx, Words of Wisdom.
    Play them, draw 4: Spellweaver Volute, Vedalken Orrery, Swarm Intelligence, Rude Awakening.
    Play them, draw 4, leave one Words copy on the stack: Perpetual Timepiece, Mirror of Fate, Opalescence, Dual Nature.
    Play Timepiece, mill Chatter of the Squirrel + Psychic Battle.
    Play and sac Mirror to put Words into the library.
    Exile Timepiece to put Mirror, Psychic Battle and Lotus into the library.
    Resolve Words and draw those 4 cards.
    Play and sac Mirror to put Minion of Tevesh Szat, Goblin Bushwhacker, Cowardice, Copy Enchantment, Timepiece, X and Y into the library.
    Play Words, get a total of two copies. Resolve the first to draw the first 4 of those cards.
    Play Lotus, Opalescence, Dual Nature, Copy Enchantment, Psychic Battle, Cowardice, Minion and Bushwhacker to create loads of Sphinxes.
    Resolve the Words on the stack, get lots of Sphinx triggers.
    Draw Timepiece and X.
    Play and exile Timepiece to put Mirror into the library.
    Draw Mirror and Y.
    Play and sac mirror to put whatever into the library.
    I think we can get started from here

    It was the 5th resolved Words that triggered tons of Sphinxes, 1 better than the attempt in my last post.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Mirror of Fate exiles our library so that start doesn't quite work. How about this:

    Same initial 7.
    Draw 4: Spellweaver Volute, Precursor Golem, Vedalken Orrery, Deconstruct.
    Play those. After Deconstruct resolve the Golem trigger first, destroying both tokens, gaining 6 mana. Resolve the Words of Wisdom, draw 2, leave Sphinx trigger on the stack.
    Draw Perpetual Timepiece, Mirror of Fate.
    Play Timepiece, mill Battle Cry and Chatter of the Squirrel. Play Mirror and sac to put Words into library. Sac Timepiece to put Mirror, Black Lotus, Volute into library.
    Resolve Sphinx trigger to draw Words and Volute. Also resolve Deconstruct for 3 more mana.
    Cast Words again, draw Lotus and Mirror. With Sphinx on the stack cast and crack Mirror to put whatever into the library.
    draw two more cards: Timepiece and Cowardice.
    Use Timepiece to mill Acorn Harvest x2 and to put Mirror back in the library.
    Put Volute on Words. Flashback Chatter to cast Words. Draw Mirror and Minion of Tevesh Szat.
    Before the Sphinx activate Mirror again and put Words, Timepiece, Goblin Bushwhacker, Dual Nature, Opalescence, Copy Enchantment and X into the library.
    Draw Words and Timepiece. Cast Words to draw Bushwhacker, Dual Nature, Opalescene and Copy Enchantment.
    Play the enchantments to get 6 copies of Dual Nature. Play Black Lotus to get 3 red mana. Play Tevesh Szat gain tokens, give them haste with bushwacker.
    Bounce enchantments to get more dualnatures, play tevesh Szat and Bushwhacker again.
    Realize you cant play bushwhacker a 3rd time because you need the red mana to flash back a sorcery, so put a copy enchantment as Volute on Words of Wisdom, flash back Acorn Harvest and resolve a Words.
    Draw Mirror and X and trigger a lot of Sphinxes. Immediately play and use Mirror to not get decked.

    That start is a mess. I probably messed up somewhere with the Mirror/Timepiece zone changes. I'd be surprised if this can't be improved. Point is we can get started.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, it seems Goblin Gardener + Primeval Titan is good enough to generate life with Worldpurge, if we use the Dual Nature triggers for the Titan properly:

    With N Mad Auntie Psychic Battle trigger on the stack, we use two to destroy gardener tokens and in turn destroy our lifegain lands. Then we play the Titan to bring those lands to the battlefield and gain 3 life. We leave some Dual Nature trigger on the stack. We use N untapped Metallurgeon tokens to put Psychic Battle and Bloodbond March layers on the stack. Then we flashback Acorn Harvest for 3 life and do all that Worldpurge stuff. We use the Metallurgeon layers to recover N-1 untapped hasty tokens. Then we resolve the Titan Dual Nature triggers to get the lands back and gain another 3 life.

    Loss: 1 untapped Metallurgeon token, 2 Mad Auntie Psychic Battle trigger.
    Gain: 3 life

    The extra life can easily recover the token cost for a fixed price at the end, so this still works as intended.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, I Terashi's Grasp seems safe now. Doesn't save a card though, since we use Forest to get started. But switching that to Replenish should at least make the start more powerful.

    But what I said in my last EDIT, about Primeval Titan allowing Goblin Gardener to generate life is wrong, because we now need to cast Worldpurge all the time to bounce the Titan. So I currently don't see a way to gain life out of the goblin stage. (In the Worldfire version Evacuation was cheap enough to bounce Titania, so that wasn't a problem there.)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oooh, Vile Redeemer is a great find!

    My first fear is that we can still go infinite with that: after killing enough creatures during setup we can repeat Worldpurges without using Metallurgeon. While that means we don't get any more deaths we can still progress in some manner by accumulating Dual Nature triggers for extra creatures on the stack. After an arbitrary number of those has been accumulated we turn them into damage with Goblin Bushwhacker.

    But actually after resolving a Worldpurge we don't have any mana in our pool. Where can fresh mana come from?
    1. Mox Emerald is our only source of green mana. If we use it for something other than the Acorn Harvest flashback we can not repeat the Worldpurge.
    2. Su-Chi does require Metallurgeon activations to die.
    3. Vile Redeemer requires an initial mana payment. Old Eldrazi Scion tokens have been removed by the Worldpurge.
    4. Our Lands enter tapped, so we don't get mana from them.

    So it looks like we actually do need the Metallurgeon for Worldpurge repetitions. So I guess we are fine. Great stuff Smile

    Although I count 9 cards that we can't bounce before Worldpurge, so we'd have to put away 2. The easiest fix would be to allow the lands to be put into the library. But we also need them to enter tapped, otherwise they generate mana in the infinite consideration above...

    EDIT: Primeval Titan should work for land retrieval. Not as hard of a problem as I thought ^^'

    That neatly solves another problem as well: Goblin Gardener can't produce life via land bouncing if we rely on Rude Awakening copies from a single Acorn Harvest cast to animate them. That is because the Mad Auntie activations to kill gardener are bound to the stack as well (either via Psychic Battle or via Bloodbond March), so they can't be properly weaved between Swarm Intelligence copies.

    With the Titan we can just destroy the land with gardener and put it into the library with Perpetual Timepiece.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I don't think anything stops us from using two Spellweaver Volute trigger on Time and Tide before and after Worldpurge, triggered from the same Acorn Harvest. Just make sure the enchantments are destroyed before the instant card is exiled. No need to cast extra Chatter of the Squirrels.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Heya CTNC, nice to see another deck here, thanks for sharing your work Smile

    I found two ways to go infinite with your cards.

    First, it is possible to create token copies of Weaver of Lies (while it is face up), then redraw the original, play it face down and use its ability to turn some of the tokens face down. Then you can use the ability of those tokens to turn the original face down again. They can keep flipping each other over infinitely, supplying you with face down Kheru Spellsnatcher without ever needing to draw another creature.

    Second, it is possible to play Aura of Dominion on Mimic Vat instead of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Specifically on the Mimic Vat that has Selvala, Heart of the Wilds imprinted. Tapping that Mimic Vat then gives a bunch of those Selvalas, which can in turn tap for mana and use the Aura of Dominions ability to untap the Mimic Vat again.

    In general I like the structure of your layers after Paradox Engine, but the stuff you do with the Paradox Engines untaps looks like a mess. The relevant parts seem to be getting Selvala V2 tokens, getting Mana, using that mana to untap Kiki-Jiki and creating more Doubling Seasons. All those alternate ways to increase the number of creatures and counters wouldn't even show up in the estimate (even if that wasn't infinite) and in so far as you need to draw Krenko, Mob Boss, you are better off leaving him in the library and drawing Weaver of Lies one more time. Even assuming the draw is free, spending mana on Ooze Flux would be detrimental. The main problem with those cards is that they only increase the output of Selvala V2, but not the number of Doubling Seasons. The latter is what your main progress is dependent on. A single card to tie Selvala's output to the number of doubling seasons would be more efficient, leaving room to increase your numbers at more significant parts of the combo, like those lifegain spells.

    I'm also not a fan of using almost 30 copies of the same card, but I guess as long as you don't have a better use for those cards it can't be helped. Just keep in mind to insert multiples as deep in your layer combo as possible.

    I hope you don't get discouraged by all that criticism I just heaped on you and keep on building non infinite damage combos Smile

    Huh, the Worldpurge version is closer than I thought. Although we need to get rid of two infinites before/while we cut cards there.

    First, Deconstruct targets artifacts and goes infinite, just like Terashi's Grasp did in the Worldfire version. I don't know if we have an alternative sorcery to create only one specific color?

    Second, with Worldpurge bouncing the Mox Emerald to hand instead of exiling it we can use Show and Tell to put it back into play and then resolve a Spellweaver Voluted Retract to bounce it again. This gets us two green out of the Acorn Harvest cast and we can use the second for an extra Chatter of the Squirrel to go infinite. So we can't use Show and Tell and presumably require an extra card for the start.

    In regards to cutting cards: We need to make sure Metallurgeon stays required to repeat both of the possible transitions. If a card like Mana Echoes gives us massive amounts of colorless mana to use with I think necessity would go away. Otherwise we could keep using Core Prowler to get energy counters for Whirler Virtuoso, but I don't see a way to turn nondescript tokens into progress that doesn't make Metallurgeon superfluous.

    I agree that Worldpurge would allow us to use mana stages. I'm not sure if that benefit is more likely to be achieved by Worldpurge or by Worldfire without Evacuation.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I mostly see a lot of potential problems. Discard/draw triggering stuff is problematic with Rebuilds cycling ability. If we try to reuse the opponents library we can't really use triggered abilities to move cards into it, since Worldfire will exile all their cards that are not currently in the library.

    An interesting card to use would be Breath of Fury instead of World at War. The idea being that we can use the opponents life to trigger additional combat phases multiple times. But Worldfire also reduces the opponents life to 1 so we actually can't trigger Breath of Fury after going through the full combo and it ends up inferior. Thinking about it, casting it targets any creature way too cheaply since we can bounce it to our hand with Kiora's Dismissal so it goes infinite anyway.

    EDIT: Patron of the Vein looks interesting. With Korozda Gorgon that is 2 layers below giving the opponent a creature. Of course if we give them more than one at a time the extras will get removed by Worldfire again, so I don't know how to continue from there without wasting a card.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I think such a legendary creature goes infinite: We play it with Dual Nature and get a token copy. Legendrule kills the original, we imprint it on Mimic Vat. We use the token to target stuff. Repeat for all but one Bloodbond March trigger. After the last trigger let the original legendary creature stay on the battlefield and bounce it with Evacuation.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Another way we could handle the ending sequence would be Torrent of Souls, Kithkin Mourncaller, Militia's Pride, World at War. But just like with Herbal Poultice we don't get as much progress before combat. Sadly Torrent of Souls is pretty resistant to adding layers, because the mana spent to cast it can't be copied.

    I prefer going with the highest possible damage. Even if that means we require all that luck for Grip of Chaos.

    It is too bad that Dryad's Caress is an instant instead of a sorcery. Otherwise we could use that instead of Harmony of Nature and end with Herbal Poultice, Arbiter of the Ideal, Kithkin Mourncaller, World at War.

    EDIT: actually, that last sequence wouldn't even work, since we wouldn't be able to use Harmony of Nature to tap the Arbiter of the Ideals if we replace it with the card we want to use to untap them XD
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    hmm, Herbal Poultice is interesting.

    That improved Reality Spasm start where we put Vedalken Orrery back via Show and Tell should work, actually. We can cast Bloodbond March and Minion of Tevesh Szat before the flashback of Flash of Defiance. Then we counter the Minion while we have Broken Ambitions on the stack, mill Broken Ambitions and more flashback spells at the same time, get more Dual Natures when we have Kiora's Dismissal on the stack, and then resolve that part to get Minion back to the battlefield. After resolving a Precursor Golem trigger for Reality Spasm we then easily have enough ressources to put Broken Ambitions back on the stack, mill Kiora's Dismissal again and put that on the stack as well.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.