True. Still it made me double check his list for red.
As to his list, it is going to be very difficult convincing people to run Vial because its has been tested to death and shot down upon testing in almost every instance. It is difficult maintaining a sliver in your hand to Vial in EOT so it often becomes unnecessary after it's first activation. Sliver abilities have a "pseudo-haste" in that the ability comes on line immediately after it comes into play (e.g. cast Muscle, Wing sliver and swing with others). When you EOT Sliver into play you 'only' gain an extra body for an alpha strike. In short, Vial isnt as impressive here.
On top of Vial isnt Quick Sliver excessive? I would prefer Quick Sliver to Vial because if nothing else its another sliver.
Remand isnt going to do any more for you in this deck than a Memory Lapse. Drawing cards is cool but Memory Lapse is going to be more of a time walk for you here.
This version replaces Daze with more hard counters. It also features more cantrips to dig through your library for pieces. I believe that Talon Sliver is in the board.
I do have a Meathooks Player in my area (Pinder & The whole Info Ninja Team)
I assume you may know Volt then, no? He is pretty much the Meathook guru along with Pinder and Mav(I guess). We all were in the original MH thread. The Ninja's came up with the original idea but many people helped develop it to what it is now. BTW kicks422 came up with the name and its cool IMO.
Currently,a topic of debate has been over Daze and whether it warrents inclusion over more counterspells, dig, removal, etc. Basically, it boils down to your opponants playskill level. The better your opponant the less valuable Daze becomes because they wont just walk into it. Against a decent player, Daze can be a terrible card to hold in your hand.
This is a very strong deck and the list is tight. Pretty much if it is a sliver in these colors it has been tested. Furthermore, the color scheme and sliver choices have already been debated to death.
The only thing missing from this deck is players willing to play this at tournaments.
@The list, I prefer 3 Winged Slivers. Its probably the #1 thing Im digging for mid to late game(if everything else is in place).
The point of this deck is to come out blisteringly fast with dogs and lions, backed up by burn. Once you have some cards in the yard (turn 2-3) you drop a Grunt and start beating serious face. You represent a decent clock and can create a lot of early damage on the ground and straight to the dome. Much of the deck inadvertently fills up the graveyard so paying for the Giant is easier. Paying for Grunt inadvertently recycles your burn spells(reshuffle w/ fetchlands/flagstones) so killing your opponant becomes easier. The circle of life is complete.
Card Choices
Jötun Grunt - The grunt is the main focus of the deck. He is cheap, big, fights graveyards, recycles your burn spells, smashes face. What more could you ask for at 2 mana? Bloodstained Mire/Wooded Foothills - Fetches out dual lands and feeds your giant. Shuffles your library. Flagstones of Trokair - Fills up your graveyard, fights land hate, superb.Sacred Foundry - Plains fetched by Flagstones come into play tapped. Guess what you are going to grab with them. Plateau - A Plains and a mountain, how convenient. Lotus Petal - Adds a mana and +1 graveyard. Mogg Fanatic - Very versatile creature for 1 mana. Jumps into the graveyard if you need him to. Isamaru, Hound of Konda - people hate these and they often end up in your graveyard Savannah Lions - see above. Lightning Bolt - I would run 20 if I could. Chain Lightning - next best thing to bolt. Watch out for chaining back if you are sitting across from mountains. Lightning Helix - 6 point swing for 2 mana (sometimes), and much better than Incinerate, Chain of Plasma. etc. Magma Jet - 2 more damage and digs through your library. Fireblast - 4 damage for zero mana. If you are running low on Grunt food you can instantly dump three cards in your graveyard.
The card from Ice Age you were thinking of is Karplusan Forest, and no you shouldnt bother with it because it doesnt count as a forest or a mountain. Bummer. In case you didnt know "fetch-lands" like Wooded Foothill can grab ANY dual land that counts as a forest or mountain. Original dual lands and the new 2 damage lands work, but not Ige Age pain lands, and thusly, they suck. The majority of mana bases are based off of fetchlands and (original) dual lands with a few basic lands to fetch in case of Wasteland.
"Metagame" is a fancy term for what decks/strategies you expect to play against.
Umezawa's Jitte is not restricted in legacy (1.5) but it is still crazy powerful.
It looks like you are trying to make a r/g beats deck but your choices remind me of decks we used to play in 1997. Certainly thats not going to cut it nowadays. You are going to have to be very aggressive early on rather than set up for explosive turns later on. People will just remove your Lumberjack(disrupt your strategy), create a bunch of goblins and run you over, or create a crazy-stupid combo which wins them the game on turn 4. If you want to win with red and green you have to focus on beating face early and often.
Here are some cards which you may not know about or forgot, for your consideration:
Magma Jet - not as much damage as Incinerate, but much more useful.
BTW, Regrowth and Zuran Orb are not restricted. Balduvian Horde is garbage and was always inferior to Erhnam Djinn. Even Erhnam isnt that great anymore:-/ Dont look into Ball Lightning. They are still expensive but have lost a lot of play value over the years.
I've thought of Pox + Stax before but have never been able to come up with any good build. However, that was before Smallpox and Phyrexian Totem, which may indeed bring new blood.
What I like in your list is :
- Phyrexian Totem : good win condition and permanent to tap to Tanglewire.
- 29 mana sources + the Totems : you need that much mana indeed.
- Crucible of Worlds, although I'd stop at 2.
- Trinisphere : awesome for turn 1. Still good later in this deck.
- Mishra's Factory : win condition in a land slot.
- your sideboard.
What I see differently :
- Tanglewire would be so nice here.
- Dark Ritual : it enables Dystopia but isn't a permanent. It also doesn't play well with Chalice at 1 (Threshold). Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond play better with Trinisphere (enables it turn 1) and Tanglewire. Mox Diamond in particular plays well with Crucible and the high number of lands. The Mox don't play with Chalice at 0 (Iggy Pop) but they can be boarded out for that and play very well with Chalice at 1.
- Braids : it makes their creature-removal relevant. I'd rather avoid critters altogether before a lock is in place.
- Sinkhole : a bit too black to be played early consistently enough for me and less relevant late (although Trinisphere helps). Smallpox is more relevant due to the creature-killing.
- Fetches : the thining effect is not worth 1 life point for this deck (think of the Goblins matchup). Crucible tricks are cute but not that useful once you have 3 mana already.
LOL, Mr Puzzle. That list is almost exactly my previous list. Thanks for being on the same wavelength almost instantly. Braids replaced Smokestack and E. Plague replaced Tangle Wire. I felt that Smokestack was a little too slow and that The Abyss was too narrow, so I opted for Braids. The extra beats allowed me to drop the 2x Chimeric Idols for some needles. I also dropped Tangle for E. Plague as I noticed that the little green men were my #1 target. Both of those substitutions could go either way depending on your taste. The mana differences are rarely a concern.
The biggest debate I have right now is between Dark Ritual and Mox Diamond. Dark Ritual is much more explosive and lets you almost immediately grab games (1st turn Plague, 1st Turn Trinisphere = GG against the right MU). However, Diamond is much more consistant and allows for a better long game. Just remember that with 3sphere in play the Diamond is just as dead as the Ritual IMO. With 3 sphere Diamond becomes a crappy Phyrexian Totem.
I think you are dead right about the fetches.
@Finn. Like I said, its a meta call. Duress is still the $hit vs. combo (pun intended.)
Building your deck around Pox is difficult as you must sacrifice many of the traditional features of a deck (draw, creatures, mana). This is because you will lose 1/3 of your creatures, lands and hand, and you are punished for having many resources. With Smallpox, there is no need for this because of one thing:
Smallpox lacks the 1/3 of everything clause
(duh)
With Smallpox you are guarenteed no more than one of each type of card will be lost. This means that you can have more than 3 lands in play and 3 cards in your hand without screwing yourself over. Thereby, you can afford to to build your resources along more traditional means.
The big differences Between Big and Small is that BigPox is one mana more and will knock your life total into dubious position. This is an eventuallity against all kinds of aggro on a good draw. Burn. Etc. Think of it like this: the first Smallpox costs 2, does the same thing(mostly) as Bigpox, and knocks you down 1 life. The first Bigpox costs 3 and can put you down 7 life points!!
In summation, Smallpox is faster, easier to play with, easier to build around, easier to cast, and doesnt screw you over in terms of lands, hand size, and life total. The rest of the deck features removal, discard and general resource denial so getting rid of one of each of their lands, creatures and hand is going to mean more than usual. The opponant is already in dubious position and SP can push them over the edge.
Selected Choices
Braids - I blatantly stole this idea from Mr. Jank. Actually, she superceded, Smokestack and the Abyss after they proved to be slow and narrow, respectively. The fact that she is a creature is somewhat of an issue, however she comes online a turn quicker than Smokestack and isnt dead against combo like the Abyss.
Crucible of Worlds - Virtual card advantage + Wastelock, fun with Cabal Pit, replaying wasted Tombs, Factorys, play lands discarded to Smallpox(or diamond)etc.
Wasteland - Nonbasic removal and wastelock. Also spot mana to power out your artifacts.
Cabal Pit - Kills meddling creatures. Recurs for extra fun. Threshhold is not a problem.
Smallpox - Black Tremble. Oh, its an Innocent Blood too? And a Funeral Charm? Hamburgers!! Seriously, this card is usually a three for two on the board in an aggro environment (Three for three if you count the SP itself). Even if the tremble effect is its only function(combo matchup) it's still a pretty solid supplement to Sinkhole and Wasteland.
Sinkhole - Black Sinkhole, err....
Trinisphere - Wrecks combo and goes well with the deck. Ritual, 3sphere is a strong opening play against many decks on the play. For now, Chalice is on the side as I feel its more specific hate for the combo matchup.
Phyrexian Totem - Totems are pretty decent because of their mana ability and ease to cast off of a Tomb. They also represent a decent clock in a tapped out/clear board. Makes creatureless decks pay (except burn). Watch out for mountains, stupid.
Pithing Needle - This deck's #1 problem card is Aether Vial. Also happens to pwn Belcher and Rifter if anyone bothers to play them.
Engineered Plague - Goblins used to be a large problems for this deck, but not anymore. Also good against random stuff like a little mongoose, wizards (dark confidant + meddling mage), slivers, ichorids and ghouls, etc. Thank your god(s) if you are paired up against elves.
Matchups
Goblins - 50/50. Goblins laughs at land destruction and creature control spells. E.Plague is your MVP (duh) and makes games much more reasonable. This is because its harder for them to keep multiple kings on the board with the kind of removal you play. Pithing Needle is awesome here out of the board, nabbing Vial, a major nuisance to your strategy. Infest can also be sided in for board control. Funeral Charm would be the meta slot to combat turn 1 lackey.
Solidarity - Favorable. Besides Chalices and Trinisphere, your strongest cards are your Smallpoxes and your Sinkholes. Dont underestimate the power of the discard off of a Smallpox as it may take them from a hand that can go off next turn to one that they have to wait on. 1)Tomb, Chalice. 2)Swamp, 3sphere is savage out of the board. Duress is still a house here.
Threshold - Somewhat favorable. Again, 3sphere, Chalice and land destruction are strong. But they have a tendancy to disrupt and maindeck Pithing Needle is a big problem. Never, ever, ever, do a 1st turn smallpox off of a ritual unless you want to look really stupid when they Daze you. Its tempting if they drop a 1st turn mongoose but if it lives on a Tropical Island then you have a problem. 2nd turn Smallpox is sweet though and will often draw an ill advised FoW. Dystopia is pretty decent out of the sideboard. This MU really comes down to your level of competition and good thresh players will give you a run for your money. Diabolic Edits are a good maindeck choice if you expect thresh in your metagame.
17x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
4x Megrim/The Rack
3x Funeral Charm
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Spector
3x Rotting Giant
2x Nantuko Shade
As to his list, it is going to be very difficult convincing people to run Vial because its has been tested to death and shot down upon testing in almost every instance. It is difficult maintaining a sliver in your hand to Vial in EOT so it often becomes unnecessary after it's first activation. Sliver abilities have a "pseudo-haste" in that the ability comes on line immediately after it comes into play (e.g. cast Muscle, Wing sliver and swing with others). When you EOT Sliver into play you 'only' gain an extra body for an alpha strike. In short, Vial isnt as impressive here.
On top of Vial isnt Quick Sliver excessive? I would prefer Quick Sliver to Vial because if nothing else its another sliver.
Remand isnt going to do any more for you in this deck than a Memory Lapse. Drawing cards is cool but Memory Lapse is going to be more of a time walk for you here.
Hooks
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
4 Swords to Plow
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent
This version replaces Daze with more hard counters. It also features more cantrips to dig through your library for pieces. I believe that Talon Sliver is in the board.
You are correct. I also prefer 4 Plated as they are arguably the best sliver here(I said arguably).
I assume you may know Volt then, no? He is pretty much the Meathook guru along with Pinder and Mav(I guess). We all were in the original MH thread. The Ninja's came up with the original idea but many people helped develop it to what it is now. BTW kicks422 came up with the name and its cool IMO.
Currently,a topic of debate has been over Daze and whether it warrents inclusion over more counterspells, dig, removal, etc. Basically, it boils down to your opponants playskill level. The better your opponant the less valuable Daze becomes because they wont just walk into it. Against a decent player, Daze can be a terrible card to hold in your hand.
The only thing missing from this deck is players willing to play this at tournaments.
@The list, I prefer 3 Winged Slivers. Its probably the #1 thing Im digging for mid to late game(if everything else is in place).
Some quick changes:
-3 Lava Spike
-2 Jitte
-2 Goblin Legionaire
+4 Magma Jet
+3 Mogg Fanatic
The opening post was edited to account for the changes.
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Plateau
2 Mountains
2 Plains
Land Food
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothill
4 Lotus Petal
Big Spikey Giant that Hates You
4 Jötun Grunt
Chump Food
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Savannah Lions
4 Mogg Fanatic
Hot and Spicy Food
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Helix
3 Fireblast
Side
4 Disenchant
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Armageddon
Intro
The point of this deck is to come out blisteringly fast with dogs and lions, backed up by burn. Once you have some cards in the yard (turn 2-3) you drop a Grunt and start beating serious face. You represent a decent clock and can create a lot of early damage on the ground and straight to the dome. Much of the deck inadvertently fills up the graveyard so paying for the Giant is easier. Paying for Grunt inadvertently recycles your burn spells(reshuffle w/ fetchlands/flagstones) so killing your opponant becomes easier. The circle of life is complete.
Card Choices
Jötun Grunt - The grunt is the main focus of the deck. He is cheap, big, fights graveyards, recycles your burn spells, smashes face. What more could you ask for at 2 mana?
Bloodstained Mire/Wooded Foothills - Fetches out dual lands and feeds your giant. Shuffles your library.
Flagstones of Trokair - Fills up your graveyard, fights land hate, superb.Sacred Foundry - Plains fetched by Flagstones come into play tapped. Guess what you are going to grab with them.
Plateau - A Plains and a mountain, how convenient.
Lotus Petal - Adds a mana and +1 graveyard.
Mogg Fanatic - Very versatile creature for 1 mana. Jumps into the graveyard if you need him to.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda - people hate these and they often end up in your graveyard
Savannah Lions - see above.
Lightning Bolt - I would run 20 if I could.
Chain Lightning - next best thing to bolt. Watch out for chaining back if you are sitting across from mountains.
Lightning Helix - 6 point swing for 2 mana (sometimes), and much better than Incinerate, Chain of Plasma. etc.
Magma Jet - 2 more damage and digs through your library.
Fireblast - 4 damage for zero mana. If you are running low on Grunt food you can instantly dump three cards in your graveyard.
No sideboard yet. Any suggestions are welcomed
"Metagame" is a fancy term for what decks/strategies you expect to play against.
Umezawa's Jitte is not restricted in legacy (1.5) but it is still crazy powerful.
It looks like you are trying to make a r/g beats deck but your choices remind me of decks we used to play in 1997. Certainly thats not going to cut it nowadays. You are going to have to be very aggressive early on rather than set up for explosive turns later on. People will just remove your Lumberjack(disrupt your strategy), create a bunch of goblins and run you over, or create a crazy-stupid combo which wins them the game on turn 4. If you want to win with red and green you have to focus on beating face early and often.
Here are some cards which you may not know about or forgot, for your consideration:
Magma Jet - not as much damage as Incinerate, but much more useful.
Chain Lightning - remember these? Good. Now go get 4.
Kird Ape - still the best r/g beatdown creature. The presence of Stomping Grounds makes them even better.
Fireblast - free burn is fun. #1 card to end the game.
Wild Mongrel - pumps with your extra cards. Very solid.
River Boa - still awesome.
Lava Spike - a crappy/budget Chain Lightning. Still 3 damage for 1 mana.
Mogg Fanatic - one of the best red creatures ever printed. Extremely useful
Troll Ascetic - awesome green beatdown! Does much more for your side of the board than a 5/5 with no abilities(horde) and he's only 3 mana!
Jungle Lion - a green savannah lion that can't block, not that you would.
Naturalize - a green disenchant, WTF?
BTW, Regrowth and Zuran Orb are not restricted. Balduvian Horde is garbage and was always inferior to Erhnam Djinn. Even Erhnam isnt that great anymore:-/ Dont look into Ball Lightning. They are still expensive but have lost a lot of play value over the years.
LOL, Mr Puzzle. That list is almost exactly my previous list. Thanks for being on the same wavelength almost instantly. Braids replaced Smokestack and E. Plague replaced Tangle Wire. I felt that Smokestack was a little too slow and that The Abyss was too narrow, so I opted for Braids. The extra beats allowed me to drop the 2x Chimeric Idols for some needles. I also dropped Tangle for E. Plague as I noticed that the little green men were my #1 target. Both of those substitutions could go either way depending on your taste. The mana differences are rarely a concern.
The biggest debate I have right now is between Dark Ritual and Mox Diamond. Dark Ritual is much more explosive and lets you almost immediately grab games (1st turn Plague, 1st Turn Trinisphere = GG against the right MU). However, Diamond is much more consistant and allows for a better long game. Just remember that with 3sphere in play the Diamond is just as dead as the Ritual IMO. With 3 sphere Diamond becomes a crappy Phyrexian Totem.
I think you are dead right about the fetches.
@Finn. Like I said, its a meta call. Duress is still the $hit vs. combo (pun intended.)
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
12 Swamps
2 Cabal Pit
4 Dark Ritual
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Plague
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
3 Diabolic Edict/Duress/Funeral Charm(meta call)
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dystopia
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
Pox vs Pox
Building your deck around Pox is difficult as you must sacrifice many of the traditional features of a deck (draw, creatures, mana). This is because you will lose 1/3 of your creatures, lands and hand, and you are punished for having many resources. With Smallpox, there is no need for this because of one thing:
Smallpox lacks the 1/3 of everything clause
(duh)
With Smallpox you are guarenteed no more than one of each type of card will be lost. This means that you can have more than 3 lands in play and 3 cards in your hand without screwing yourself over. Thereby, you can afford to to build your resources along more traditional means.
The big differences Between Big and Small is that BigPox is one mana more and will knock your life total into dubious position. This is an eventuallity against all kinds of aggro on a good draw. Burn. Etc. Think of it like this: the first Smallpox costs 2, does the same thing(mostly) as Bigpox, and knocks you down 1 life. The first Bigpox costs 3 and can put you down 7 life points!!
In summation, Smallpox is faster, easier to play with, easier to build around, easier to cast, and doesnt screw you over in terms of lands, hand size, and life total. The rest of the deck features removal, discard and general resource denial so getting rid of one of each of their lands, creatures and hand is going to mean more than usual. The opponant is already in dubious position and SP can push them over the edge.
Selected Choices
Braids - I blatantly stole this idea from Mr. Jank. Actually, she superceded, Smokestack and the Abyss after they proved to be slow and narrow, respectively. The fact that she is a creature is somewhat of an issue, however she comes online a turn quicker than Smokestack and isnt dead against combo like the Abyss.
Crucible of Worlds - Virtual card advantage + Wastelock, fun with Cabal Pit, replaying wasted Tombs, Factorys, play lands discarded to Smallpox(or diamond)etc.
Wasteland - Nonbasic removal and wastelock. Also spot mana to power out your artifacts.
Cabal Pit - Kills meddling creatures. Recurs for extra fun. Threshhold is not a problem.
Smallpox - Black Tremble. Oh, its an Innocent Blood too? And a Funeral Charm? Hamburgers!! Seriously, this card is usually a three for two on the board in an aggro environment (Three for three if you count the SP itself). Even if the tremble effect is its only function(combo matchup) it's still a pretty solid supplement to Sinkhole and Wasteland.
Sinkhole - Black Sinkhole, err....
Trinisphere - Wrecks combo and goes well with the deck. Ritual, 3sphere is a strong opening play against many decks on the play. For now, Chalice is on the side as I feel its more specific hate for the combo matchup.
Phyrexian Totem - Totems are pretty decent because of their mana ability and ease to cast off of a Tomb. They also represent a decent clock in a tapped out/clear board. Makes creatureless decks pay (except burn). Watch out for mountains, stupid.
Pithing Needle - This deck's #1 problem card is Aether Vial. Also happens to pwn Belcher and Rifter if anyone bothers to play them.
Engineered Plague - Goblins used to be a large problems for this deck, but not anymore. Also good against random stuff like a little mongoose, wizards (dark confidant + meddling mage), slivers, ichorids and ghouls, etc. Thank your god(s) if you are paired up against elves.
Matchups
Goblins - 50/50. Goblins laughs at land destruction and creature control spells. E.Plague is your MVP (duh) and makes games much more reasonable. This is because its harder for them to keep multiple kings on the board with the kind of removal you play. Pithing Needle is awesome here out of the board, nabbing Vial, a major nuisance to your strategy. Infest can also be sided in for board control. Funeral Charm would be the meta slot to combat turn 1 lackey.
Solidarity - Favorable. Besides Chalices and Trinisphere, your strongest cards are your Smallpoxes and your Sinkholes. Dont underestimate the power of the discard off of a Smallpox as it may take them from a hand that can go off next turn to one that they have to wait on. 1)Tomb, Chalice. 2)Swamp, 3sphere is savage out of the board. Duress is still a house here.
Threshold - Somewhat favorable. Again, 3sphere, Chalice and land destruction are strong. But they have a tendancy to disrupt and maindeck Pithing Needle is a big problem. Never, ever, ever, do a 1st turn smallpox off of a ritual unless you want to look really stupid when they Daze you. Its tempting if they drop a 1st turn mongoose but if it lives on a Tropical Island then you have a problem. 2nd turn Smallpox is sweet though and will often draw an ill advised FoW. Dystopia is pretty decent out of the sideboard. This MU really comes down to your level of competition and good thresh players will give you a run for your money. Diabolic Edits are a good maindeck choice if you expect thresh in your metagame.