At end of step or phase does the mana (8 of whatever colour) from Metamorphosis get turned to colourless mana that can now be used for non-creature spells? Or does the 'Spend this mana only to cast creature spells' clause remain?
Hi, I'm a pretty casual Modern player and never online. I am however a fan on Martyr and have been following this thread for some time, thanks to all who have contributed so far. I have been playing the BW Martyr list similar to Demannic's. I was also excited by what I saw on Travis Woo's CFB video and thought I'd contribute with his list (as best as I can make out given there is a bit of fluidity in some slots and it appears to still be a work in progress).
Grand Abolisher is beatable without something that draws ire like Aether Flash or Humility. You just need to find effects you can use reactively while he's in play. Lands such as Keldon Necropolis, Barbarian Ring, Cabal Pit, or Mouth of Ronom are all fair. I think cycling on a sorcery is OK too so Decree of Pain could work? Finally I think morph is a special action and can be used through the abolisher effect Bane of the Living is probably the most versatile morph but there are others.
Firstly, I stroke your ego; I love your deck and your very well put together explanation I like the idea of building a subtle political deck with punisher finishers.
You have said in your extensive breakdown of your deck that alternative generals would most likely need to keep white and red to maintain the essential elements of ‘turnaround’ and defence. The alternative directions you mention either drop black altogether or add blue (Zedruu and Ruhan). I would like to see if I can build a deck using your principles and general but dropping the black for green instead. Green has the advantage of dropping you even lower on the threat radar than either black or blue, especially if there is little in the way of creatures on your board. The general I have in mind is Gahiji, Honored One - his ability meshes so well with the idea of letting other people play their decks and encourages the opponents to smack each other around. My plan is to start with your deck, remove the black and work out what I need to add back in.
Black cards in your deck with their ‘roles’: Blood Reckoning - defence, dissuades swarm attacks Hissing Miasma - defence, dissuades swarm attacks Dread - defence, discourages creatures hurting you, can attack if needed No Mercy - defence, discourages creatures hurting you Sudden Spoiling - defence / disruption. Netherborn Phalanx - turnaround, will kill the player(s) with excessive creatures, can tutor Rakdos Charm - turnaround, will kill the player(s) with excessive creatures, can disrupt Stronghold Discipline - turnaround, will kill the player(s) with excessive creatures Backlash - turnaround, will kill the player with an excessively large creature Phthisis - turnaround, will kill the player with an excessively large creature Batwing Brume - turnaround, will kill the player with an attacking swarm Repay in Kind - turnaround, can put the table in reach of your burn, can combo with Phyrexian Unlife.
That is only 12 out of 99 cards, with 5 defence and 7 turnaround cards including a number of your win conditions, it is going to be a challenge to find replacement effects but I think it is possible to put something together.
Green turnaround options - these are a bit more of a challenge and may require more searching in red or white to fill in the options: Storm Seeker - obvious sudden impact number two. Fresh Meat - kind of a turnaround, but only if we run creatures - I might have to look a bit harder. Fertile Imagination - not a satisfying, kill right now type card like the black options but may be worth trying. Blunt the Assault - can play defence and gain me life there are other cards like this that are the opposite of Rakdos Charm, Netherborn Phalanx type cards, sadly life gain doesn’t win the game outside of silly cards (Felidar Sovereign, Test of Endurance) Tree of Redemption - not really turnaround again but may be able to work with Soul Conduit for some clunky shenanigans.
Sorry for that wall of text:
I’d be interested in people’s opinions on some of the defence / turnaround options available in green especially if there are directions that I haven’t thought of that I should consider.
Are there other Green/Red/White synergies that fit this decks plan and help finish opponents in ways that result in the 'wow that was great' response?
TLDR Gahiji could command a similar style deck IMO
Green has fog effects for defence but not the same tools for ‘turnaround’
Green has potentially better fixing / accel, and disruption.
Firstly thanks to u-579 for a comprehensive view of a comboriffic take on Ghave. I first saw Ghave and was excited to play him as a general, I like tokens and counters and sac effects, and pumping stuff in combat etc. What I'm not so keen on in EDH are tutors for consistent 'I win' combos. That is a personal view obviously and I cast no judgement on your style at all.
What I offer is an alternative take on Ghave, it is durdly and runs what many would consider 'subpar' cards but I think it is a valid and fun way to play him. I built it with no artifacts for two reasons: it avoids some of the infini-combos and it blanks some of the opponents removal/enables some of my own shutdown of artifacts. As such the deck focuses more on enchantments and has a minor enchantress theme, it doesn't forgo all power in that there are a number of powerful combos without infinite loops (as far as I can see - please feel free to point out ones that may be there).
What I would like to see is if there are others running anything similar (i've read about 1/3 of the pages of this thread sorry if I missed something). I'd also appreciate anyones input on other reasonable enchantment/creature based synergies I could add / tune to my deck to evolve it further.
I like the orcish librarian for all sorts of reasons, he is fun and falvourful and eats library paste, mmm library paste. . .
I tried to build a deck to abuse him in the current standard. His ability is really out of sorts for red, allowing you to stack your next four cards at the expense of loosing four from the game entirely. Think of him like sensei's divining top and you'll see what I'm getting at. Unfortunately he is fragile and you don't really want alot of him so I cut his numbers to only 3, I think he will give me the mid game edge I need to ensure victory.
Attempts at building synergy into this deck: Terramorphic expanse - thins the library, shuffle effect if you don't like the four cards librarian showed you. Flagstones of Trokair - thins the library, shuffle effect. Ghost Quarter - thins the library, shuffle effect, combo with flagstones. Surging Flames - some synergy with deck thining and stacking.
I did start testing with smallpox and mwonvuli moss but I found these do not slow down the aggro decks enough and they just drown you in damage too fast. I've been testing this against Zoo and I can keep up though it's not a definite easy win, something like 60:40.
/facepalm thanks I missed that.
At end of step or phase does the mana (8 of whatever colour) from Metamorphosis get turned to colourless mana that can now be used for non-creature spells? Or does the 'Spend this mana only to cast creature spells' clause remain?
Thank you.
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Serra Ascendant
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Wall of Omens
3 Vizkopa Guildmage
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Flickerwisp
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Sky Hussar
4 Path to Exile
4 Æther Vial
Land (21)
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Marsh Flats
3 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Flooded Strand
7 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Lingering Souls
1 Worship
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Supreme Verdict
You have said in your extensive breakdown of your deck that alternative generals would most likely need to keep white and red to maintain the essential elements of ‘turnaround’ and defence. The alternative directions you mention either drop black altogether or add blue (Zedruu and Ruhan). I would like to see if I can build a deck using your principles and general but dropping the black for green instead. Green has the advantage of dropping you even lower on the threat radar than either black or blue, especially if there is little in the way of creatures on your board. The general I have in mind is Gahiji, Honored One - his ability meshes so well with the idea of letting other people play their decks and encourages the opponents to smack each other around. My plan is to start with your deck, remove the black and work out what I need to add back in.
Black cards in your deck with their ‘roles’:
Blood Reckoning - defence, dissuades swarm attacks
Hissing Miasma - defence, dissuades swarm attacks
Dread - defence, discourages creatures hurting you, can attack if needed
No Mercy - defence, discourages creatures hurting you
Sudden Spoiling - defence / disruption.
Netherborn Phalanx - turnaround, will kill the player(s) with excessive creatures, can tutor
Rakdos Charm - turnaround, will kill the player(s) with excessive creatures, can disrupt
Stronghold Discipline - turnaround, will kill the player(s) with excessive creatures
Backlash - turnaround, will kill the player with an excessively large creature
Phthisis - turnaround, will kill the player with an excessively large creature
Batwing Brume - turnaround, will kill the player with an attacking swarm
Repay in Kind - turnaround, can put the table in reach of your burn, can combo with Phyrexian Unlife.
That is only 12 out of 99 cards, with 5 defence and 7 turnaround cards including a number of your win conditions, it is going to be a challenge to find replacement effects but I think it is possible to put something together.
Green defence options:
Fog effects:
To be a decent deterrent to attack the defence needs to sit on the table threatening to render their attack pointless, Spike Weaver, Spore Frog, Dawnstrider, Radiant Kavu. Maybe Constant Mists (once it’s done it’s job once people will perhaps be deterred), maybe Sekki, Seasons' Guide (can prevent or neutralise attacks).
Deathtouch or regeneration:
Deadly Recluse, Death-Hood Cobra, Thornweald archer, Kessig Recluse, Voracious Cobra, Hornet Queen, Engulfing Slagwurm - can all deter people attacking me.
Hunted Troll gives the guy with no creatures four faeries that are 3/1 attacking someone other than me if Gahiji is in play. He is also an 8 power defender with regeneration that should prevent people turning guys sideways in my direction.
Krosan Warchief accelerates and regenerates Gahiji.
Broken Fall, Asceticism - threaten to regenerate my general or my death touch guy if they get killed.
Rattlesnakes:
Giant Trap Door Spider
Green turnaround options - these are a bit more of a challenge and may require more searching in red or white to fill in the options:
Storm Seeker - obvious sudden impact number two.
Fresh Meat - kind of a turnaround, but only if we run creatures - I might have to look a bit harder.
Fertile Imagination - not a satisfying, kill right now type card like the black options but may be worth trying.
Blunt the Assault - can play defence and gain me life there are other cards like this that are the opposite of Rakdos Charm, Netherborn Phalanx type cards, sadly life gain doesn’t win the game outside of silly cards (Felidar Sovereign, Test of Endurance)
Tree of Redemption - not really turnaround again but may be able to work with Soul Conduit for some clunky shenanigans.
Green does potentially add some different strengths to the deck (even if winning easier isn’t one of them).
Mana fixing / deck acceleration:
Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim, Farseek, Sakura-tribe elder, Rampant Growth, Kodama's Reach, Wood Elves . . .
Harmonize, Compost, Sylvan library, Momentous Fall.
Disruption:
Krosan Grip, Acidic Slime, Terastodon, Artifact Mutation, Aura Mutation, Beast Within.
Sorry for that wall of text:
I’d be interested in people’s opinions on some of the defence / turnaround options available in green especially if there are directions that I haven’t thought of that I should consider.
Are there other Green/Red/White synergies that fit this decks plan and help finish opponents in ways that result in the 'wow that was great' response?
TLDR
Gahiji could command a similar style deck IMO
Green has fog effects for defence but not the same tools for ‘turnaround’
Green has potentially better fixing / accel, and disruption.
What I offer is an alternative take on Ghave, it is durdly and runs what many would consider 'subpar' cards but I think it is a valid and fun way to play him. I built it with no artifacts for two reasons: it avoids some of the infini-combos and it blanks some of the opponents removal/enables some of my own shutdown of artifacts. As such the deck focuses more on enchantments and has a minor enchantress theme, it doesn't forgo all power in that there are a number of powerful combos without infinite loops (as far as I can see - please feel free to point out ones that may be there).
What I would like to see is if there are others running anything similar (i've read about 1/3 of the pages of this thread sorry if I missed something). I'd also appreciate anyones input on other reasonable enchantment/creature based synergies I could add / tune to my deck to evolve it further.
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Lands (36)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command tower
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Forrest
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Grasslands
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Kor Haven
1 Krosan Verge
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Plains
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Serra's Sanctum
4 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Yavimaya Hollow
Creatures (19)
1 Academy Rector
1 Auramancer
1 Celestial Ancient
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Corpsejack Menace
1 Eternal Witness
1 Korozda Gorgon
1 Lumberknot
1 Mesa Enchantress
1 Monk Idealist
1 Predator ooze
1 Sapling of Colfenor
1 Sigil Captain
1 Sporeback Troll
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Sun Titan
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Twilight Drover
1 Verduran Enchantress
1 Angelic Destiny
1 Asceticism
1 Attrition
1 Aura Shards
1 Bear Umbra
1 Broken Fall
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Death's Presence
1 Debtors' Knell
1 Doubling Season
1 Druids' Repository
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Enchantress's Presence
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Fanatical Devotion
1 Glare of Subdual
1 Indrik Umbra
1 Land Tax
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Mana Bloom
1 Martyr's Bond
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Necrogenesis
1 Nettlevine Blight
1 Oblivion ring
1 Parallel Lives
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Perilous Forays
1 Pollenbright Wings
1 Privileged position
1 Rancor
1 Shape of the Wiitigo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sterling Grove
1 Stony silence
1 Wellspring
1 Day of Judgment
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Martial Coup
1 Replenish
Instant (1)
1 Enlightened Tutor
Planeswalker (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
I tried to build a deck to abuse him in the current standard. His ability is really out of sorts for red, allowing you to stack your next four cards at the expense of loosing four from the game entirely. Think of him like sensei's divining top and you'll see what I'm getting at. Unfortunately he is fragile and you don't really want alot of him so I cut his numbers to only 3, I think he will give me the mid game edge I need to ensure victory.
Attempts at building synergy into this deck:
Terramorphic expanse - thins the library, shuffle effect if you don't like the four cards librarian showed you.
Flagstones of Trokair - thins the library, shuffle effect.
Ghost Quarter - thins the library, shuffle effect, combo with flagstones.
Surging Flames - some synergy with deck thining and stacking.
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Sacred foundry
6 Mountain
4 Shock
4 Seal of Fire
4 Sudden Shock
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Lightning Helix
4 Surging Flame
4 Rift Bolt
4 Char
3 Demonfire
2 llanowar elves
4 dark confidant
2 gutless ghoul
4 ohran viper
4 hypnotic specter
4 plague sliver
2 mindslicer
3 sudden spoiling
3 fallen ideal
2 putrefy
4 call of the herd
4 llanowar wastes
5 forest
5 swamp
2 svogthos, the restless tomb
1 gemstone caverns
1 pendelhaven
3 nightmare void
3 leyline of the void
3 persecute
3 krosan grip
1 sudden spoiling
2 putrefy
I did start testing with smallpox and mwonvuli moss but I found these do not slow down the aggro decks enough and they just drown you in damage too fast. I've been testing this against Zoo and I can keep up though it's not a definite easy win, something like 60:40.