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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Only playing 4 dredgers seems wayyyy to few. I think we agreed on 6 to 7 as a bare minimum once.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Although it's neat tech, I think Cryptbreaker is much too cute. As for Smuggler's Copter, I like minimizing the amount of cards that are dead in the yard and even if I wouldn't care, would probably just run Gurmag Angler over anything else. Swapping out Trolls for Thugs and Stinkweeds seems decent. The days in which I played Salvage or Wayfinder are definitely gone.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Thug is 10 bucks now? I have like 6 of those lying around. Sweet.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Like mentioned before by Pizzap, Fwtal Push will make midrange much more popular, which in turn makes creatures such as LolTroll and Angler worse.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I don't think we have to worry about dredgers. I'll just play Golgari Thug and up my Stinkweed count. I expect less hate, so I don't recommend shying away from the all-in dredge version. Gurmag Angler seems bad with Fatal Push around.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Modern Cheeri0s - Puresteel Equipment Storm
    Quote from Be_lakor »
    Do What you have to do. Do you want them for coolness factor or because of lowest price?


    For the lowest price, obviously. What's the point in asking about a "coolness factor" (whatever that is. This is MTG, we're not turning cool again any time soon ;p)?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on Modern Cheeri0s - Puresteel Equipment Storm
    Guys, I need a quick second guess: I'm about to buy 2 Russian and 2 Japanese Paladins for 20 euros. Smart or not?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on Modern Cheeri0s - Puresteel Equipment Storm
    Just dropping by to say congratulations Smile Hope we'll see more of you guys in Modern from now on, I've always had a soft spot for this deck <3
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Stumbled on this just now, looks like we missed a top 8 this year by only hairsbreadth:

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpla16/dredgevine-with-austin-bach-2016-05-22
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from creamy99 »
    The Mountain has met my expectations. It's saved me a lot of life since being more relient on red. I don't foresee the mountain coming out unless a ban happens.

    Nature's Claim is in there and has been nice. I don't particularly like the lifegain, but I'm too lazy to try out other 1 CMC graveyard hate removal spells XD


    Sounds good, I'll adjust my sd after AR will have been released.
    As far as Nature's Claim goes, the only realistic alternative would be Natural State and I dislike its inability to hit Leyline.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from creamy99 »
    The Mountain helps save some life since Reunion came out, so I rely more heavily on red lately. Nature's Claim is a way to deal with the extra GY hate that's been circulating since actual Dredge has been a thing for a few months. I needed a cheap way to do it. Since the format sped up, it's a great way. Notice I don't keep anything over 2 CMC out of the board except for Gnaw to the Bone!


    I'm well aware why they're in there, Creamy Wink I just wanted to know how you've liked them so far, if they met your expectations, or if you could possibly think of alternatives.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from jackad7 »
    Wow. So looks like everyone is grabbing the pitchforks over on the ban thread. Im thinking what is the best case scenario if there is a ban? Personally i thought grave-troll because it hurts us the least and it will slow dredge just enough to taper it off. This also would have less people play graveyard hate and help us move up a bit. Worst case scenario I think would be bloodghast. He is probably one of the most valuable cards to us right now because of his ability to recur zombies for free.


    Aww, man. I just bought an alt art Grave-Troll...

    Gameplay-wise, if anything other than the Troll gets banned, I'll probably stop playing the deck for a while. I don't think there's a big incentive to ban anything, though. The Dredge-hype has long passed and the deck's nowhere near as oppressive as other things. If WotC decides to pull another bs-move, banning a deck that's "not fun to play against", besides not performing oppressively well, I'll lose the last bit of faith I have in their competence.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from SonicKaos »
    I thought I'd share my current list here because the deck seems like great fun with the new cards that came out recently.



    I think there are a couple of changes that could be made, but overall I am happy with it so far. Juse this afternoon I had a crazy turn 2 that ended with me having a gravecrawler, a Hooting Mandrills, 2 Vengevines and a bloodghast on the table.

    I'm considering the following changes so far though:

    1. I would switch the Breeding Pool for a Steam Vents if I had one.
    2a. I would consider replacing the two Hooting Mandrills for Golgari Grave Troll if I had them as well. The Mandrills have been great and very explosive so far, but I could use a bit more dredge power sometimes to be more consistent. It's a trade off either way really, but both are good.
    2b. I would also like to try switching Hooting Mandrills for 1 Golgari Grave Troll and one more Gurmag Angler. the extra power and toughness stand up to Tassigur better and it's a zombie to boot. costs one more though, which results in needing to exile a recurring creature to pay for it occasionally and that's no fun.
    2c. I would try replacing Hooting Mandrills with Tassigur. The one extra toughness is great and the ability may (rarely) be relevant. It also costs the same as Mandrills which is awesome, but losing out on trample is unfortunate. I think Mandrills can push more damage through early game because of that. Again, another trade off.

    That's pretty much it at the moment. Just a couple of mall adjustments to be made I think... and a sideboard.

    Vengeful Pharaoh has been awesome so far as well btw. It's a wonderful deterrent against decks that attack only with one or two key creatures because they can't do anything about it game 1 at least. It's also easy to get back in the grave if it activates. If not I have also won by hard casting it before, because it's a zombie to boot!


    Hey, welcome to the thread. 4 dredgers seems wayyy to few, I'd go up to at least 6 or 7. I also don't think delve creatures are the way to go, anymore, considering there's barely anything to exile with it that would be dead in the yard otherwise. Pharaoh I have been wanting to try for a while now. I had a copy in the side around a year ago, but didn't bring it in too often. With the newfound popularity of Tron, it's probably a good time to run it again.

    Speaking of sideboards, what is everyone running currently? We haven't talked about this in a while and I feel mine is in need of revision. Conflagrate seems like the major change as of late, but there are other cards to discuss, as well. Is anyone still running Life From the Loam main? I noticed I haven't cast that card in months, although I have one in my top 60 and another one in the side. It only seems really solid in conjunction with Ghost Quarter.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    LolTroll and sad aggro.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Has anyone tried the new fastlands? I don't know how much I like Copperline Gorge in my black-heavy list anymore.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Polymorph »
    Quote from Polymorph »
    ...


    That surprises me, because I feel this is the most we've ever been in agreement about the deck. We're currently at a point where we have less than 4 flexspots and basically only disagree on what and how much to cut for Cathartic Reunion. Obviously, I'd recommend my list, but as long as you run 4 Vengevine, 4 Gravecrawler, 4 Bloodghast, 4 Prized Amalgam, one or two Haunted Dead, 4 Insolent Neonate, 3 or 4 Lotleth Troll, between 6 and 9 dredgers, 4 Faithless Looting, 3 or 4 Cathartic Reunion, and around 20 lands, you're good to go.


    Ok, great.
    I just scrolled over and therefore were missing the main points.

    Is it possible to run the Version with Birds of Paradise and Varolz, or is this strictly worse than the common Build?


    It just makes the deck more grindy, which is not the place I personally want to be. We lose a lot of speed, but I find the combo extremely sweet, so if you want to try it out, by all means do.
    As far as I know, no onr has really been playing an updated Varolz list post-Innistrad, though. Our list is extremely tight atm, so I really don't know what you could cut for it.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from DolphinBat »
    Yup, that's pretty much the list.

    Played some more games in the past days. Life from the Loam is not as effective as I thought and I find myself wishing it was just the other Stinkweed Imp whenever it hits the yard, and I also don't run Conflagrate anymore. With Cathartic Reunion, even without the dredge engine, you still get to draw 3 cards and discard relevant creatures, which helps me hit the land drops I need. Dakmor Salvage as a 1-of is also good as it gave me that very last land drop I needed to set up my Ghasts and Amalgams. And Haunted Dead saved me in 2 games by being a graveyard discard outlet as well as giving me a spirit chump blocker, so I'll never be taking her out again.

    I moved the Loams to the sideboard, but I'm not really sure what matchups to side them in for. Postboard, grave hate is inevitable so siding in Loam seems pretty bad. I'm not sure though, any advice?


    It depends on your approach to combatting grave hate. These days, I just try to win through effects that only exile the yard once (like Relic). Coincidentally, decks that run Relic, most notably Tron, are also very weak against Loam + Ghost Quarter. Because Tron is a problem pre-board, I like to keep a single Loam, as well as a GQ in my land flex spot (instead of Dakmor Salvage), in the main.
    Against more permanent hate effects like RiP, I first try to race and then once my gy gets switched off, finish my opponent off with dumb beaters. LolTroll can also just win these games on its own if the opp doesn't find a Path. I wouldn't recommend Loam in these matchups.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Polymorph »
    Is there a stock list to start with?

    I read through the past couple of pages, but there was no censensus about the best possible build.


    That surprises me, because I feel this is the most we've ever been in agreement about the deck. We're currently at a point where we have less than 4 flexspots and basically only disagree on what and how much to cut for Cathartic Reunion. Obviously, I'd recommend my list, but as long as you run 4 Vengevine, 4 Gravecrawler, 4 Bloodghast, 4 Prized Amalgam, one or two Haunted Dead, 4 Insolent Neonate, 3 or 4 Lotleth Troll, between 6 and 9 dredgers, 4 Faithless Looting, 3 or 4 Cathartic Reunion, and around 20 lands, you're good to go.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    This is more of a fun idea I had while watching the PT coverage than a serious question, but what do you guys think of Evershrike combined with cards like Rancor or Edge of Divinity? It's way too many card slots for us to sacrifice, but a turn 3 7/7 or 6/5 flyer that comes back when you kill it seems sweet.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I like 7 because it's often enough to hit another dredger off of dredging, while not sacrificing too many active card slots. I'd love to play more to increase consistency, but first of all can't find the slots, and secondly don't want to have multiples in my opener. 7 is minimum, though, imo. That number might also very well increase with Reunion. What is your consensus (if there already is one) on it, btw? I think it's powerful enough that we want to run 4, even if it's dead in the yard. Casting one t2 is often just game.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Sounds good. I'll try it without the Conflagrates.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    So I've been doing some testing with the list Manfred posted, and I think I am just going to cut the Conflagrates to test out Cathartic Reunion. In most cases you're only discarding 1-3 cards with Conflagrate anyway, and being able to Dredge a bunch in replace of the damage seems worth it. However not being able to cast it from the graveyard might be a bit of a downside, but we will see.


    Thanks for the testing. What do you think of cutting the Loam, a Haunted Dead, and only a single Conflagrate? I just found it too valuable against decks that go wide or to sometimes push through that little bit of damage needed to kill your opponent.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from DolphinBat »
    Thanks!

    Yeah I understand. I remember some years ago, I ran 20 lands, casted looting t1 on the draw and was still stuck on 1 land for about 4 turns, losing that game out right.

    I'm on mobile, but here's a gist of my list:

    3 Blackcleave
    2 Copperline
    4 Verdant
    4 Bloodstained
    2 Blood Crypt
    1 Overgrown
    1 Stomping
    1 Twilight Mire
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest

    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Insolent Neonate
    4 Lotleth Troll
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Amalgam
    4 Stinkweed
    4 Grave Troll
    4 Vengevine

    4 Looting
    2 Reunion
    1 Conflagrate
    1 Life from the Loam

    I tried this but found that Reunion definitely needs to be either 3-4, as it's won me many games by just being in my opening hand, at least in testing. The conflagrate is my only answer to maindeck t2 oozes, and sometimes it's not enough. Loam is there for value, but I could see putting it in the sideboard instead.

    Oh yeah, sideboard!:

    2 Decay
    2 Grudge
    2 Gnaw
    2 Lightning Axe
    2 Darkblast
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Collective Brutality (Really aggro meta)


    Hi, I'm sorry I couldn't get back to you earlier, but I was in Berlin for a couple of days. I personally would start with 3 Reunions and then decide after playing a bunch whether you would have wanted to see it more often. I'd start with either cutting the Loam (not a big fan of that, though) or a Stinkweed. I have found that running 7 dredgers is enough, 8 should be perfect. Not sure how those numbers change with Reunion.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] UR Dragonaut - Eye Candy - Nivix Blitz
    Awesome! Thanks for the tips, I'm excited to play it.
    Posted in: Established
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Fools seldom differ, nutzbox. At least I feel more confident about my opinion now Grin


    @DolphinBat (awesome name, btw): Mind posting your decklist, so we can figure out some cuts together? I'm sure we can get a playset of Reunion into your list somehow withtout going down to 18 lands.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from DolphinBat »
    Can this deck run on 18 lands? I'm trying to find room for Cathartic Reunion but the list is just too tight with the whole Vengevine engine. Confused


    I wouldn't recommend it, honestly. 19 already seems like a stretch (which I'll be trying out post-Kld), because being stuck on one land is so incredibly bad with this deck. You can easily keep one-land-hands if you have cards like Faithless Looting in your hand, but with only 17 other lands left in your deck I don't feel so confident about this line of play anymore. I always try to get to 3 lands if possible, so I can flashback Looting as an emergency option or to chain LolTroll into Gravecrawler. This way I also can play Conflagrate for 0 and then flashback it, but that's a super fringe case (has happened to me, though).
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] UR Dragonaut - Eye Candy - Nivix Blitz
    Thanks for the fast response. I adjusted the decklist. What do you think?

    Posted in: Established
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    posted a message on [Primer] UR Dragonaut - Eye Candy - Nivix Blitz
    Thanks for the great feedback. This is the list I came up with. Criticism is highly appreciated:



    Not sure how many lands I need and how many of those should come into play untapped... I also have no idea how many double strike-pumps to run. Am I right in assuming Assault Strobe is much better than Temur Battle Rage?
    Posted in: Established
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    What up, Skitza? Long time no see.

    This is my current list:

    I've been wanting to cut the 20th land for a long time and will do so once Kld hits. I'm still unsure whether Cathartic Reunion will be a 4- or 3-of, but I will definitely move the Ghost Quarter to the side, cut a Conflagrate, and probably a Haunted Dead. I might also have to fit in another dredger to make Reunion more reliable.


    Are the 2 Catacombs/4 Mire a budget choice? I know I myself would prefer 4 Catacombs.

    That also seems like a large number of basic lands, I'm used to running 1-2.

    Have you run into any troubles not having a random blue source to cast Amalgams with?

    How have 2 Haunted Dead been working out for you? I know when I was looking at putting my list back together, I only really wanted to put one in the deck. It does seem a bit much while you also have 3 Conflagrate in there.


    Yes, the Mires are due to budget reasons. In all my time playing this deck I have only experienced a single situation in which I needed to fetch a Forest instead of a Shock. The upside of playing a playset of Catacombs is so miniscule that I don't see a point in spending 80 euros for two more of them.

    Regarding the basics, I found having two Swamps vital in winning against aggressive decks. Being able to chain Gravecrawler into Gravecrawler or LolTroll into Crawler off of basics has been great.

    So far, I only had a single game where Amalgam was stuck in my hand and even than I would have rather flashbacked a Looting.

    Haunted Dead has been great as a two-of because I very often chain Neonate into a dredger t1 and being able to return a Haunted Dead on your opponent's 2nd turn to trigger Amalgams or to enable Crawlers t3 is awesome and ups my consistency a lot. That being said, I can see going down to 1, although I'm quite sure it makes the deck worse (but making room for Reunion is both difficult and necessary, so I'll begrudginly do it). It sometimes interferes with the Conflagrates, you're right, and the 3rd Conflagrate is certainly the easiest cut. But I have been liking how often I actually see one in the grave. Still, it's an aweful card to have in your opening hand and I rarely cast it before t4, anyway. 2 is probably the right number.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    This forum seems pretty dead as of late and I am not surprised about that when I read some of the things here. Cathartic Reunion is the most broken thing that has happened to Modern in a long while and I will definitely use it as long as it's around. I don't know how many of the old regulars' lists look like atm, but mine almost plays like 'normal' dredge nowadays, meaning I dump my hand by t2 and flood the board. LolTroll is nice if I have it, but only really necessary against hate. I also don't know why I haven't swapped out all my removal for Conflagrates a long time ago; card's just busted.


    Speaking of old regulars, hi how you doing.

    Unfortunately for me my War Veges have been on the shelf for a while. My meta devolved to the point where I had some people actually mainboarding RiP :\

    I've been piloting Lantern Control for the time being but am definitely looking are doing some destructive gardening again. What's your current list looks like?


    What up, Skitza? Long time no see.

    This is my current list:



    I've been wanting to cut the 20th land for a long time and will do so once Kld hits. I'm still unsure whether Cathartic Reunion will be a 4- or 3-of, but I will definitely move the Ghost Quarter to the side, cut a Conflagrate, and probably a Haunted Dead. I might also have to fit in another dredger to make Reunion more reliable.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from jackad7 »
    This forum seems pretty dead as of late and I am not surprised about that when I read some of the things here. Cathartic Reunion is the most broken thing that has happened to Modern in a long while and I will definitely use it as long as it's around. I don't know how many of the old regulars' lists look like atm, but mine almost plays like 'normal' dredge nowadays, meaning I dump my hand by t2 and flood the board. LolTroll is nice if I have it, but only really necessary against hate. I also don't know why I haven't swapped out all my removal for Conflagrates a long time ago; card's just busted.

    From what I've gathered you're blaming my opinion on the lack of activity in this thread? Sorry but that was my first post in four months on this thread so if there's issues try blaming someone else. I was giving my opinion on the card, I said that personally I'm no going to try it right away, I never liked tormenting voice and I'm not sure I would like this so I'll stay with what I like. I said if other people have success I'll give it a try so by all means prove that I am wrong and show me it's good. I'll gladly play it. Your post seems overly hostile for me simply giving my opinion on a card.


    I'm sorry. No, that's not what I meant. I was sick at the time and confined to my bed for almost 2 weeks, which as an athlete made me absolutely crazy and bitter. Again, I'm sorry for being so rude.
    That said, I can see why one wouldn't like Reunion. It's very dependent on a deck that simply does not care about hand size, since only a few interactive cards like Lightning Axe or LolTroll can make casting it feel absolutely terrible. I'm super excited to test it and will report back. I'm convinced this card will break Modern and lead to some kind of banning.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] UR Dragonaut - Eye Candy - Nivix Blitz
    Hi, I've been wanting to play an u/r(/g) Shotgun deck for a long time and figured pauper was the perfect format for it. I was very happy when I discovered this thread and would love to contribute. A few questions right off the bat: why is Mutagenic Growth so underrepresented? It seems great as both counter-hate and on the offensive. Secondly, what do you think about Gut Shot? Is it too low-impact? Thirdly, this is a pet card of mine, so I'm very biased, but why does no one run Immolating Souleater? With protection and pump in hand this seems insane.

    I'll come up with a list once I've gotten some feedback. Thanks a lot in advance Smile

    Edit: I've also seen some lists run Brute Force. Why not run Titan's Strength? I'm a big fan of Scry, so are the 2 extra toughness that relevant against burn or in combat?
    And also, what's a critical mass of creatures? It seems to be somewhere around 15 in this kind of deck. That way statistically every 4th draw is a creature, which equals 2 creatures by t2.

    Edit2: Too bad Vigorous Charge is selesnya. Insane sb-option.
    Posted in: Established
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I have a few problems with this list, but I obviously can't argue with the results. My Italian is far from perfect, why exactly does this list run a split of 3 Narcomoebas and 3 Bloodghasts? It says something about dredging turn 1 with Neonate, but I didn't quite understand that... Other than that, I don't get only playing 3 LolTrolls and not running more Conflagrates. The card's just busted. I also don't see any flex spots, which will become a problem when trying to find room for Cathartic Reunion, once Kld is out.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from nutzbox »
    @killer manfred

    just a question: since your deck plays like a normal dredge deck, are you still using a playset of vengevine?


    Yes, of course. This is DredgeVine after all. Besides, I'm still convinced we are a comparably strong deck since we do not just fold to grave hate (that's why LolTroll is so great and it's also why cutting the Gurmag Angler-Salvage package was so hard for me). Also, 4/3 hasty V-8 war vegetables are simply so much more impressive than a bunch of jellyfish and a single big rhino without evasion. I've gotta admit that the Bridge-Gargadon combo is pretty sick, though. Although you have to get really lucky to be able to use it as an effective way of 'combating' gravehate and I don't like it outside of that scenario (with the exception of being great against Anger of the Gods of course).
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    This forum seems pretty dead as of late and I am not surprised about that when I read some of the things here. Cathartic Reunion is the most broken thing that has happened to Modern in a long while and I will definitely use it as long as it's around. I don't know how many of the old regulars' lists look like atm, but mine almost plays like 'normal' dredge nowadays, meaning I dump my hand by t2 and flood the board. LolTroll is nice if I have it, but only really necessary against hate. I also don't know why I haven't swapped out all my removal for Conflagrates a long time ago; card's just busted.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from nutzbox »
    ohlala! nice card, i will definitely play it. i think life from the loam is now a must if you plan to use this card with conflagrate or haunted dead.

    i also think that this card would push golgari thug as the second dredge card of choice instead of stinkweed imp in order to have a higher chance of casting 2-creatures at turn 3 and 4 for vengevine requirement


    How exactly do you plan on using this with Conflagrate or Haunted Dead? It only produces card parity, not advantage. And honestly, I don't think I would ever want to cast a Golgari Thug on t3. We run LolTrolls and Crawlers, which I think is the most efficient way of triggering Vines. In case I don't mill any Vines and/or Crawlers I'm very content to just flashback Looting to dredge twice, whipe the board with Conflagrate, cast Loam, or play a Haunted Dead eot. Nowadays I often abandon the Vine plan and just beat down with Bloodghasts, Amalgams, and Gravecrawlers. If Thug was a zombie, I'd definitely run him for the Thug-Gravecrawler-Vengevine chain.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Cathartic Reunion is absolutely bonkers and should have never been printed. What do we cut for it?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Do we play Scraphead Scrounger or is it not worth a slot?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Dejadal »
    I'm really not sure how I feel about this deck right now :/
    Unless Gravecrawler 5-8 gets printed, it just feels strictly worse than dredge when it comes to aggro. Right now I'm thinking it would be strongest as a midrange (leaning towards aggro) deck with utility spells that help the gameplan (lightning axe, darkblast, collective brutality, etc.)
    I playtested an all in (dredgeless) aggro version with the Varolz + Shadow combo dumped in. I didn't really expect it to work (it didn't) even with 2 lead the stampede and playsets of looting and salvage. On average, it was a turn too slow and would overkill the last turn.

    I've been slowly reworking it a few cards at a time and this is where I'm at right now

    4 vine
    4 crawler
    4 Lotleth
    2 grim Flayer (as troll 5&6 kinda)
    4 birds of paradise
    3 varolz
    3 deaths shadow
    3 bloodghast
    2 flamewake phoenix (haven't tested yet, used to be 1 ghast and 1 collective Brutality

    4 looting
    4 salvage
    1 darkblast
    1 brutality
    2 lightning axe

    19 lands, fetch/shock/basic pool
    Haven't had any mana issues yet

    Any suggestions?

    (This is just a for fun deck and something to use against newer players in my group. I bring Dredge to tournaments)


    Bloodghast is one of those cards that you should always run as a playset, I think. I'd also consider Narcomoebas, seeing that they're great Varolz-targets.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    A few problems with the current version of the deck I have are:
    1. not being able to return something to trigger my Amalgams. I've considered playing Narcomoebas, but they're just too low-impact,
    2. not being able to return Haunted Dead due to not having 2 cards in hand,
    3. not being able to finish off my opponents before they kill me. This is especially prevalent when playing against zoo or naya-burn.

    As a result, I will try 2 copies of Sedraxis Specter. I'd much rather run Extractor Demon, but I'm often enough stuck on 2 mana. I also sometimes have 4, and Specter plus Conflagrate into a boardstall sounds pretty brutal. I'll report back, but don't expect this to be too terribly viable. We'll see.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from deckslayer »
    sorry for the last post
    4vengevines
    4graveclawers
    4prized amalgams
    4bloodghast

    4golgari grave troll
    4stinkweed imp
    1golgari thug
    1life from the loam

    2haunted dead(the most powerful card. it isn't a joke)

    4faithless looting
    4lotleth troll
    4insolent neonate

    20 land

    side
    4 ancient grudge
    3 gnaw to bone
    4 thoughtseize
    2 darkblast
    2 abrupt decay




    Ftfy Wink

    It's fairly similar to the usual lists I see here, although I think 10 dredgers is overkill. 7-8 is the sweetspot when running Looting and Neonate, I found. I'm also concerned about the lack of removal. Conflagrate is stupid good. It kills dorks, whipes boards, enables us to push damage through und functions as a discard-outlet.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    You can find that in the primer on page 1.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck


    Interesting, only one copy of Diminish. How have you been liking that? From my experience, it's the better optio compared to Tris.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Sounds good. Do you mind sharing your deck again?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on That one deck you just never seem to build
    I've been wanting to put together a Zada, Hedron Grinder goblin tribal deck, but somehow never did. I even have a dozen or so key pieces lying around.
    Other than that, I'd love to play Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient.


    Edit: This thread actually made me put together a Kurkesh deck. The decklist can be found here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kurkesh-onakke-value/
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I want to point out that the only difference between the Vengevine lists and the current dredge deck is that we're playing less enablers and switch out the Loams, Narcomoebas, and Rallies for Gravecrawlers and Lotleth Trolls. I never had any trouble so far recurring my Amalgams and though I really like Rally, hitting with pumped Trolls and Vengevines has a very similar effect. I do agree that we can get screwed over by bad luck more easily thatn the pure dredge list, but we're doing pretty much the same amount of damage if we alphastrike (just yesterday I won against Zoo t3 with 5 life left, hitting for 13 from an empty board excluding a non-pumped Loltroll) and the set-up cost is basically the same. LolTroll also helps us combat gy-hate more effectively, though I wouldn't stress that too much, since we're both pretty bad against it.
    Just saying one or the other version is better gets us nowhere. The decks play very differently and you can make good arguments for both sides. The only thing I personally dislike is us still not being considered tier 2 considering my record and what I see online.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Looks like Dredge is tier 1 now. It's still beyond me how our version is not at least comparably viable...
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredge
    Hi fellow dredgers,

    just dropping in from the Dredgevine thread to congratulate you on the success your version has had the past weeks (and to complain about the price of foil Neonates. I wanted to buy a playset for 4 euros back when Shadows dropped, but decided against it. Now one copy is sitting at a comfortable 5 euros... YOU DID THIS!!). I'm happy to see a dredge deck perform this well in modern, especially since some of my fellow war vegetable enthusiasts and me have been brewing on this archetype for some years now. Looks like the all-in version we dismissed all this time only needed one or two new core pieces (in the form of Neonate and Amalgman) to be more than just playable. I'm glad to have been proven wrong, though. This deck looks sweet!

    The other reason I'm here is because I'd like to get some opinions on the differences of our versions (you can find us here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/648449-dredgevine). We should be more resilient to hate, whereas you guys are certainly more explosive if you get the nut-draw. What are your good and bad matchups? Are they comparable to ours? (edit: nvm, just saw your dope primer. Don't think that was there when I last checked) Do you want to share anything else you noticed?

    I'm looking forward to hearing from you, since I'm a big fan of cross-thread interaction and I'm sure we can learn some things from the other party. I'm also really excited for the "mirror" because I hadn't had the chance to play it yet. I only play on paper and there you seem to be grossly under-represented for some reason...

    Cheers
    Posted in: Tier 1 (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Hi all, I'm getting into this deck. Any thoughts on Noose Constrictor over Lotleth Troll?? being able to discard anything instead of just creatures seems excellent in version running Life from the Loam or Conflagrate...


    I don't like it as a substitute because LolTroll is one of the few ways to effectively combat grave hate. Noose Constrictor losing the buff eot makes it not worth it, imo.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from Complex Pants »
    If anyone would be able and willing to record some games, I think the whole forum would greatly appreciate that!


    I could record some of my previous games. My laptop doesn't like recording live (playing on a Mac virtual boxing windows Wink )

    Here is one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suZ2rujc6Z8&amp;feature=youtu.be


    Wow, I didn't expect someone to actually do it! Awesome, thank you so much!
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    If anyone would be able and willing to record some games, I think the whole forum would greatly appreciate that!
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    I really like the idea of a grixis list with Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, Remand, burn, Snapcaster, Lili, and Tasigur. I've never been a fan of Assault Formation, but Tree with Diminish and Trisk as a wincon combined with early delve pressure and tempo plays like Remand-Snap or burn-Snap seems awesome. I'll put together a list and get back to you.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Glad to hear that! Also good luck in case that meant to say Masters'. I'm caught up in uni stuff, too, atm.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    I'm afraid there is none. That's why Goyf is so expensive. I've been considering finally getting a playset myself, but 400 euros is still ridiculous for a 2-mana beatstick.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    How do you like running more cantrips and tempo plays like Remand for a few copies of Thing in the Ice in a version that relies more heavily on Assault Formation? Starting from your list it would basically cut the Jund elements and add more card draw and value defenders like Wall of Roots and Thing. I don't think it's better, but might be worth a shot.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from Complex Pants »
    The deck has legs.


    I'm so glad to hear that. I'll finally get to testing as well next week.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from EggShen »

    Lastly, since I've seen people mentioning it, I want to point out Assault Formation doesn't help against opposing Goyfs because it only affects your own creatures.


    The fact that Assault Formation only affects your own creatures is exactly why it helps in a goyf on goyf battle. The Tarmogoyfs are always going to have the same power and toughness, so normally they bounce off one another. But your goyf assigns damage based on it's toughness when the Formation is out, which is conveniently exactly enough to kill the opposing goyf, while yours lives to fight another day.

    I've had fun in the casual room with my wall-centric list (from page 3, with a couple minor changes like adding Birds of Paradise). Turn 1 Disowned Ancestor, turn 2 Assault Formation is pretty brutal.


    Whoops, complete brainfart from my part there ':D Thanks for clarifying what should be obvious
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from Complex Pants »
    Just because I wanted to share:



    This looks fun! Can't wait to put this together in paper myself Smile
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from Complex Pants »
    Been testing this with pretty good degree's of success vs tier 2 decks.



    I definitely think Trisk does not need to be a 4x in this deck. When testing online, I noticed that once you activate tree, you lose the ability to go back to 13 if their life total changes. Which makes using trisk even harder, just my experience. Being a bit controlling is really good here, I originally didn't have the leaks in, but they really help. Piranha Marsh has won me two different games. I am no sold on commune yet. I kind of wish it was Serum Visions half the time. I am also thinking about dropping down to 1 spellskite for another Kalitas. He is just so powerful when you drop him turn 3.

    Anyway, let me know what you guys think.



    This is great, thanks for testing!
    I'm still not sold on Goyf, but see its appeal. The same goes for Kalitas. Mana Leak I can see being great, though Remand might be a consideration instead. Commune being iffy I agree with, especially considering Trisk doesn't seem to be the most valuable combo piece we have.
    How do you like Birds over Wall of Roots? I don't see why they would be better since your list doesn't seem to want to accelerate into 3-drops anyway. Is the colour-fixing more relevant than having another potential attacker?
    Lastly, since I've seen people mentioning it, I want to point out Assault Formation doesn't help against opposing Goyfs because it only affects your own creatures.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Mine is always in the first post on page 1. I edit it fairly regularly.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from EggShen »
    In the list I posted above, I suppose Ensnaring Bridge is a pretty easy cut, as most aggro decks will already struggle to deal damage through all the high toughness creatures. I could have a couple in the board for Eldrazi decks, I guess. The defenders all have utility outside of combat, so even if there is no Assault Formation, they at least have some (limited) relevance.

    If I cut Bridge, I could add a Triskaidekaphobia, the fourth Abrupt Decay or Commune with the Gods, and maybe a Warmonger's Chariot??? In my head I'm thinking aggro decks will be a good match-up. Combo decks will be a tough match-up that will need to be addressed in the sideboard, although Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay main certainly help break things up. And control (specifically counterspell based) seems like a bad match-up as my dudes are stupid without a specific set of cards, and once my opponent realizes what those cards are, I'm in trouble. That's where I think the lack of win conditions will bite me the worst. Midrange style decks seem okay, although Liliana of the Veil could be trouble if resolved and I don't have an Abrupt Decay handy. But that's true for most decks in modern...


    I agree. I'm most afraid of control decka, as well. Cryptic is a complete blowout. That's why I like Diminish combined with Piranha Marsh, it's quite hard to play around while trying to keep us of of comboing with Tris or just beating down.
    Warmonger's Chariot is interesting, but ultimately I'd rather run more removal or card draw (I'm really excited to see how good Eldritch Evolution is. One problem I have with it is that I'm currently only running 8 2-drops).
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from EggShen »
    This is a ruling from wizard's card database, Gatherer. Works just like Tree of Redemption.
    If Tree of Perdition isn’t on the battlefield when the ability resolves, the exchange can’t happen and the ability will have no effect. Notably, activating the ability and giving Tree of Perdition -13/-13 in response won’t cause your opponent to lose the game.


    Sadly no Tragic Slip trickery.


    Too bad. I had some hope for a moment. Biomass Mutation would be quite good with it. Thanks for the research, don't know how I overlooked Gatherer. Pretty sure I checked that first...
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    I'm currently trying to figure out if Biomass Mutation (or Tragic Slip, for that matter) actually don't work with Tree of Redemption. A friend of mine pointed out that
    "413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures in play), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it hasn’t changed zones; otherwise, the effect uses the last known information the object had before leaving the zone it was expected to be in. There are two exceptions: (1) if an effect deals damage divided among some number of creatures or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put into the stack (see rule 402.6), and (2) static abilities can’t use last known information (see rule 412.5). If the ability text states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

    Last Known Information
    The last known information about an object is the information that it had just before it left the zone it was in. Effects use last known information if a specific object they require information from isn’t in the zone it’s expected to be in (unless the effect divides damage). See rule 413.2f"

    We're currently looking deeper into it. If someone can point us to other relevant quotes, it would be greatly appreciated.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from EggShen »
    Quote from EggShen »
    I want to play it with Ensnaring Bridge pretty badly, too.


    Yeah, me too. I just don't see how we get to 3 or less cards consistently.


    Late reply, but I'm just now seeing this post. Honestly, I hadn't really considered that aspect. With no real card draw, possibly excepting Wall of Omens, I certainly don't see myself holding onto more than 3 cards very often, either. Certainly not past turn 4 or so. But maybe by then it's too late to matter vs. decks that go wide and fast? If that turned out to be the case, I could see adding some ramp or Aether Vial into the list as a way to help me puke out my hand and make an early Ensnaring Bridge be more effective.

    For reference, I'd probably start my testing with something like this:



    Going a little heavier on synergy than individually awesome cards (e.g. LotV, Tarmogoyf, etc.), which is more my style. Wall of Resurgence and Jeskai Barricade would be potential cuts for other options.


    Better late than never Wink
    I updated my list (it's in the first post, as always), cutting Ensnaring Bridge for the above mentioned reasons (I can't get rid of my hand by t3 effectively).
    What I think might be a problem with your list is relying on Assault Formation to get the job done, the lack of card draw, the 2-of Tris, and the bunch of random Walls that don't do anything without Assault Formation. I think this deck is only playble (if even that) because it plays many different wincons that your opponent will eventually fail to deal with. Just running Assault Formation and Tris is way too slow for Modern, imo.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    So came in 7th at a GPT today with my version of dredgevine. Its also a version i dont see being played at all. will post up deck list in a bit. only deck i had an issue with is Elves


    Congrats! Mind putting together a short tournament report? How many people attended? What decks did you play? How did you like Burning Inquiry and Narcomoeba? Did you get the feeling you were lacking removal? etc, etc...

    Thanks in advance.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I'm struggling to find a final conclusion on whether running Gurmag Angler is worth it. If I decide "yes, a t2 5/5 zombie fish is great" I also need to realise that I have to run a full playset or else I'm just wasting slots because I won't draw it early enough most of the time. But are 4 copies even enough or do I need things like Grisly Salvage?

    I've gotten to a point where I don't think I will find the answer to that on my own. So, please share your opinion and the reasoning behind it. I'd love to reach a 'final' conclusion on it because I think Haunted Dead is a card that needs to go in every version of this deck which leaves us with even fewer slots and thus even poorer chances to draw Angler consistently.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Why have we never considered Rally the Peasants?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Am I mad? Why do I like Graf Harvest so much???
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    It's pretty much strictly worse than Satyr Wayfinder or Grisly Salvage. I also think that this card is a functional reprint of another card with the same effect that we weren't playing before either.

    Edit: I was thinking of Taigam's Scheming.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Full spoiler up?
    Neat, thanks for that! Smile
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from EggShen »
    I want to play it with Ensnaring Bridge pretty badly, too.


    Yeah, me too. I just don't see how we get to 3 or less cards consistently.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    I agree. Simple as that. That's why I prefer a list crammed full of wincons. The great thing about the Tree is that it provides multiple different approaches to winning the game that your opponents always have to expect/play around. The way this deck will work most effectively imo is very niche and atypical for modern, but that's what makes it so great. I see a lot of potential here.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on TreesKaidekaphobia - A Tree of Perdition Combo Deck
    Quote from EggShen »
    Don't take this the wrong way Tennisbro, and apologies if it was mentioned somewhere much earlier in the thread, but have you ever tried to play a combo deck in modern?


    Would you happen to have any particular list available?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Hayyyy, Crop Sigil! How you doin'? <3

    Looks like my beloved Anglers are staying Smile
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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