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Treasure Cruisin' with Azorius Titan
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    However at the end of the day this deck needs red to be one of it's colours.

    Red gives you the most important cards in your decks: Faithless Looting, Insolent Neonate, and Cathartic Reunion. Without those 3 cards as consistent discard outlets to pitch your Vengevines, the deck kind of falls apart.


    That's true for the aggressive versions of the deck. If you want to go midrange, though, you have enough discard outlets in Liliana, Jace, LolTroll, and Collective Brutality.


    I disagree. I think even if you were to aim for a Midrange list not running red will result in a definitely inferior list to one that utilizes red.


    Even in lists not running Hollow One?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    However at the end of the day this deck needs red to be one of it's colours.

    Red gives you the most important cards in your decks: Faithless Looting, Insolent Neonate, and Cathartic Reunion. Without those 3 cards as consistent discard outlets to pitch your Vengevines, the deck kind of falls apart.


    That's true for the aggressive versions of the deck. If you want to go midrange, though, you have enough discard outlets in Liliana, Jace, LolTroll, and Collective Brutality.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from attorney_eel »
    Hey guys, I'd really love to build this deck in paper, and I'd like some input from more experienced players of the archetype before I make my decision I've been lurking for awhile now, and I was curious if the BUG variant of the deck is wholly unplayable? I've been playing with BUG brew that focuses on a more midrange approach (i.e. more removal), and I've been having some success in testing on Xmage. The problem is that I either grind out long enough to explode with 12+ power, or my draws are dead with Vengevines/Amalgams in hand.

    Is there something I'm missing, and if I am what is it? If not would going Jund serve me better?

    (Decklist below for reference; I realize my list lacks one drops besides Gravecrawler, but I'm unsure of what to use because Hedron Crab feels bad, haha)





    Hi, welcome to the thread! What your list lacks is either discard outlets or dredge cards. Hedron Crab is one of the few reasons (alongside Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) to go blue, so you might also consider running a set of those if you want to stay in these colours. I'm afraid the time Grisly Salvage and Satyr Wayfinder were staples of the deck are long past, especially if you're not running any Delve creatures like Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Gurmag Angler. If you don't want to go all-in on the aggro versions (either Gruul or Jund-coloured) that abuse discard or dredge, but stay a little more midrangy, I'd recommend a blue/black version with a third colour of your choice (green would be the most viable, I think). That way you can run Liliana of the Veil, Jace, 6 or 7 discard spells in Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek, Delve creatures, and Hedron Crab, Grisly Salvage, Satyr Wayfinder, and LolTroll as the engine. Snapcaster could also be a consideration.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I'm debating between this and burn for a pptq. Convince me to play this. I dare you.


    Thanks for the tournament report! Have you considered other variations of the deck? What would you say were the biggest problems you had with the list (aside from having to mulligan)?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    Interesting changes. What does your list look like now? Did you consider running 3 Mandrills and only 2 to 3 Memnites?
    It is important to note btw, that with Memnite in the list it makes it easier to hit Delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald in case I decide to run it.


    Do you think Traverse is worth it without Shadow?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    So I decided to test out Memnite last night. I only managed to get one match in as it took quite a while, but overall I liked the little critter.

    I ended up playing against GW Hate Bears, and I tell you, having those Memnites really helped when my opponent chained Ghost Quarter with Renegade Rallier.

    They also let me get enough creatures quickly to go wide and win with Become Immense

    Whenever if it I do another set of videos, I'll basically be running with Memnites to see how they work over multiple games.

    What I ended up taking out for them was:
    2x Hooting Mandrills
    1x Cathartic Reunion
    1x Lightning Bolt

    I took out the Mandrills so that they don't compete with the Become Immense as a Delve card, and as I've stated before, the first Cathartic Reunion is great, the 2nd one is usually garbage. As such I went down to 3 instead of 4. And finally I cut a Bolt because I had no idea what else to get rid of.


    Interesting changes. What does your list look like now? Did you consider running 3 Mandrills and only 2 to 3 Memnites?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    In exactly 4 weeks I'm going to a big tournament in Hamburg, Germany. This sadly means that I have to settle on a final list in the next one or two weeks, so that I can get all the cards I need in time. I'm planning on running a Jund list with Bloodghasts and Gravecrawler. Do any of you have final recommendations for me before I order the missing pieces? Is Lili worth a shot?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    What are everyone's thoughts on attempting to throw Memnites into the list. Alongside Hollow One they give you some additional 0 cost creatures to cast to recur Vengevine. I think they might be the next thing I test out.


    I've been waiting for someone to bring that up. I find them terrible, since they're virtually cards you discard to make 4/3s. I don't know if they'll be ok with the Temur Battle Rage + Become Immense combo, but at that point, we'd be playing them because they're creatures. They're bad in the deck for the same reason Simian Spirit Guides are bad: too low-impact, terrible topdecks, card disadvantage.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I make misplays okay. I try to learn from them Shocked

    I'm not a fan of running Lotleth Troll when you don't have Gravecrawler. Just seems bad imho. I'd rather have more one drops like Swiftspear or GG.


    I didn't mean to insult you, I'm just joking Wink

    Also, good point about LolTroll and Crawler. Didn't notice that.

    I think Traverse and Tasigur is vastly different from Mandrills and Become Immense. Traverse has very specific requirements that might be too hard to meet with a puny 4 instants.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    That's a very simple example of some lines that people don't see right off the bat with the deck. Honestly it just takes some practice. And always remember (because even I forget this sometimes) Vengevine triggers off casting, so counterspells don't do *****.


    Agreed, the deck is very unintuitive to play. That's why I like it so much. I can also attest to you forgetting things (still love you, though) :p

    I reaaally like the idea of Traverse in this deck. Have you considered running more instants for it? That would go well with the higher number of mb interaction me and a few others have been advocating for. If you keep your list r/g to test Traverse, I'd suggest cutting Swiftspears for it, going down to 3 Reunions, and including 2 or 3 Pushes.

    Ooooooooh, and I just noticed how great Traverse is with Shadow. It gets us Hollow Ones if we can cast them and Shadows if we're low enough on life. I think I'll do some testing myself! Combining Vines with a toolbox approach seems (in a low and content LSV voice) deeeece.

    What do you think about something like this:


    I moved the Brutalities to the sb, increased the number of Pushes (to have more instants), cut Gravecrawler and put in 3 Shadows and 2 Traverses.
    I'm slightly worried about having Traverse and Tasigur in the same deck with so few cards to delve away, though.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    Quote from horrain »
    I've been testing it in place of the Goblin Guide, it started as an availability substitution, but the evasion has helped, it can quickly grow to a 4/5, Evolve looks at either attack/defense, I'm almost positive its incorrect, but I've won games off its back.

    I've been testing with your UR suggestion, I like running 4x Looting, Reunion and Charm, but I've noticed two kind of real issues with this direction. Mana, having to cast a two drop looting spell, then 1-2 1 drops to trigger the Vines is difficult, and a lack of Green mana means you can't hard cast Vines.

    I'm going to test a Temur manabase, see if that fixes the green issue, I can see Traverse the Ulvenwald helping with the mana issues with all the 2 drop loot spells.


    You are correct about Evolve. Cloudfin Raptor can actually get up to a 4/5, which definitely makes me more interested in it.

    I can also understand why there would be an issue with that many 2 mana loot spells. I think a better number may be closer to 3 each for Cathartic Reunion and Izzet Charm. I think I'm going to get the cards to try out my Temur additions. You shouldn't have to ever hard-cast Vengevine so I personally consider that a non-issue. Even with the RG list I'm never intentionally getting more than 1 green source unless I want to be casting 2 Become Immense.


    I've won a number of games off hard-cast Vines, but I agree, it's a fringe case.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 1

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from ccc1522 »
    The deck needs removal and disruption I have come to this conclusion because the deck needs some sort of resiliance. This deck has really proven to be the epitome of glass cannon. If you dont dump your vines or cast any hollow ones the rest of the deck just struggles to get them out. The deck absolutely needs more resiliance perhaps some terminates, abrupt decays, thoughtseizes. I believe this deck would do best if treated like an abzan or jund aggro deck which runs alot of disruption and spells (thoughtseize, kolaghans command, abrupt decay) to protect the aggro strategy and to allow the gears to turn.

    That is my opinion at least. I am currently just thinking of what to do with my varient and have considered going back to my original dredge vine/varolz decklist.


    I'm not sure mid-range lists can support Hollow One. They usually just run the best cards in the format that are good on their own. You can't expect to consistently have enough answers to what your opponent is doing while also pursuing a gameplan that requires you to play cards that don't do anything on their own (like Vengevine, Hollow One, every cantrip we play, etc.). Decks like Jund or Abzan are so consistently good (and they're probably at their worst right now) because they play things like Goyf, Lingering Souls, Scavenging Ooze, and the best removal in the format. Additionally, if you want to have mb hand disruption, you need to dedicate a lot of slots to it. In many cases, that means 4 Inquisitions, 2 to 3 Thoughtseizes, and mulitple Lilianas. We can't afford to do that while also requiring our creatures to trigger off of each other.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    I did some testing yesterday against Co-Co-Combo (very proud of that name) and found out two things (I'm talking about the Collected Company deck with the Vizier of Remedies and Devoted Druid combo, in case you're wondering. My friend also runs Retreat to Coralhelm and Knight of the Reliquary. The deck seems very consistent and interactive):
    1. the matchup is not great for us. That's quite a big problem, considering how popular the deck is. We lack mb interaction and post-sb it doesn't get much better for us, because they bring in multiple Rest in Peaces. They also run a number of birds, which makes Blood Moon almost obsolete, should you play the red version of the deck.
    2. I tested two Big Game Hunters in the mb and realised how terrible those are when they don't have a target on your opponent's board. It's not a may-ability, so recurring Vengevines off of it can be a problem... I put them in the sb, removed 3 Amalgams and added a Lightning Axe.
    I also cut a Tasigur because I drew a lot of them in the last weeks, ever since I upped their count from 3 to 4. Skitza's calcuclations reinforced the decision to go back to 3. A one- or two-of of Liliana of the Veil was another consideration, but I just bought 3 japanese Thoughtseizes and sold my copy of her a while ago, so I didn't feel like getting a new one Shocked

    My current list now looks like this:


    I should also add that I was incredibly flooded 5 games in a row, even after shuffling the deck for 5 minutes straight (I drew over a dozen lands in all 5 games, never going below 35 cards in my library. In 2 games I had 13 lands in my top 20 cards, the other 7 being cantrips). I'm quite good at shuffling and use a lot of different styles, so I suppose I can't really do anything to prevent things like that. Luckily, we had enough time to play 8 games in total, so 3 of those I would call useful for testing. Nevertheless, I won none of them. I had very mediocre to bad hands in 2 games and got comboed out on t3 in the other one. All in all, the matchup feels terrible, but I'll have to do more testing to confirm that. Let me know what you think, I'd love to get some helpful insight and tips.


    More likes Rest in Pieces am I right (oh god I'm hilarious).

    I'm surprised the the CoCo deck gave you that much trouble since your list has both Fatal Push and Collective Brutality. I suppose to downside to those cards however is to use them you have to not advance your board, which kind of sucks.


    I put them in today after the matches. The list I ran yesterday had 2 Brutalities, but no Pushes, 4 Tasigurs, 2 dead Big Game Hunters, and no Lightning Axe in the sb. Those changes are concessions to how bad my list was against creature-based combo decks.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 0

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    I did some testing yesterday against Co-Co-Combo (very proud of that name) and found out two things (I'm talking about the Collected Company deck with the Vizier of Remedies and Devoted Druid combo, in case you're wondering. My friend also runs Retreat to Coralhelm and Knight of the Reliquary. The deck seems very consistent and interactive):
    1. the matchup is not great for us. That's quite a big problem, considering how popular the deck is. We lack mb interaction and post-sb it doesn't get much better for us, because they bring in multiple Rest in Peaces. They also run a number of birds, which makes Blood Moon almost obsolete, should you play the red version of the deck.
    2. I tested two Big Game Hunters in the mb and realised how terrible those are when they don't have a target on your opponent's board. It's not a may-ability, so recurring Vengevines off of it can be a problem... I put them in the sb, removed 3 Amalgams and added a Lightning Axe.
    I also cut a Tasigur because I drew a lot of them in the last weeks, ever since I upped their count from 3 to 4. Skitza's calcuclations reinforced the decision to go back to 3. A one- or two-of of Liliana of the Veil was another consideration, but I just bought 3 japanese Thoughtseizes and sold my copy of her a while ago, so I didn't feel like getting a new one Shocked

    My current list now looks like this:


    I should also add that I was incredibly flooded 5 games in a row, even after shuffling the deck for 5 minutes straight (I drew over a dozen lands in all 5 games, never going below 35 cards in my library. In 2 games I had 13 lands in my top 20 cards, the other 7 being cantrips). I'm quite good at shuffling and use a lot of different styles, so I suppose I can't really do anything to prevent things like that. Luckily, we had enough time to play 8 games in total, so 3 of those I would call useful for testing. Nevertheless, I won none of them. I had very mediocre to bad hands in 2 games and got comboed out on t3 in the other one. All in all, the matchup feels terrible, but I'll have to do more testing to confirm that. Let me know what you think, I'd love to get some helpful insight and tips.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • 1

    posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    So after doing some thought, and watching replays of the RG Vengevine, and Jund Deathvine lists I've been wondering something. What is the best Delve creature for a Vengevine deck? This question comes to me because Julian's RG list was running 2 Hooting Mandrills alongside the Become Immense + Temur Battle Rage package, whereas Todd Anderson was running 4 Gurmag Angler. And then there are the 3 'good' Delve creatures I haven't mentioned: Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Sultai Scavenger, and Tombstalker.


    This is a terrific post! Thank you so much, mate!

    It also confirms my opinion on the different delve cards and goes a long way in actually figuring out card choices by not just looking at them. As for your question, I think I can answer it: generally, Tasigur is the much better card metawise because of opposing Tasigurs, random 4/4s, and the slight upside of having an ability I think is very potent should you have the time to actually activate it. That said, if you consider running a base red deck (and 3 Blood Moons in the sb are definitely a reason to consider doing that), Tasigur is not the decisive factor in that decision. Additionally, if you want to run Become Immense, Mandrills is the clear pick, simply because trample is a huge upside in those lists.

    If you run black and no pump spells, go with Tasigur. In all other cases, Mandrills has a slight edge in some lists and a huge one in others.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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