MTG Salvation

Hey, I just want to point out that the biggest mistakes that you seem to make in this draft are in regards to signalling, with two major things that stand out to me:

1) 3 colours seem to be flowing from your right in pack 1: Red (which you are definitely correct in taking heavily and forcing), White, and Black. Especially half-way through pack 1, and later in pack 1, you'll notice that the drafters to your immediate right are avoiding the white spells. P1P8 you had Kor Scythemaster vs Goblin Freerunner, P1P9 you had Bone Saw vs Tar Snare, and you were given a P1P13 Spawnbinder Mage. Those are the types of signals that will cause me, in this situation, to be happy to abandon some blue or green picks I made early in pack 1, and focus on supporting my main colour (red) with a colour that's certainly going to get shipped to me in pack 3. (You can still try to force blue here, but you need a great reason for it considering you have to sacrifice the pick9 Tar Snares and pick13 Spawnbinder Mages that you've seen).

2) It seems like you've completely disregarded signalling in pack 2. You need to make sure the signals that were sent to you from the right aren't getting sent right back at them in pack 2 (unless you want somebody to move into your colours and cut you off in pack 3, which seems to be exactly what happened in this draft). I just want to point out your P2P9 and P2P11 - the packs that you sent back to your right gave the guy directly to your right the choice of a pick10 Cinder Hellion vs Akoum Flameseeker vs Umara Entangler vs Seer's Lantern... you gave him pick12 Goblin Freerunner vs Brute Strength... Judging from pack 1, the people to your right probably didn't pick very many red spells, but after the pack 2 you were sending, it's quite possible they started to (probably considering the fact that the people to THEIR right were shipping late Reckless Bushwhackers and Zada's Commandos in pack 1).

I overall think you drafted this fairly well, and I would have drafted it very similarly (possibly committing to R/W or R/B instead of R/U though). However, I probably would have ended up train-wrecking here after seeing the Jori En, Ruin Diver just like you did. But, I can point out a few decisions you made that I would have put more thought into.

At P1P5, you take Stormchaser Mage over Reckless Bushwhacker. The mage is great, but don't undervalue the bushwacker - it wins a lot of games. This early in the draft, after I have 3 red spells and a hedron crawler, I'm probably just taking the bushwacker to try to stay open (and make sure red is cut as hard as I possibly can from the people to my left).

P1P7 is all around a big mistake - one thing that's obvious at this point is you're going to end up with a fairly aggressive red deck of some kind, but you're not locked into your second colour yet. Slip through Space is one of the best commons in the R/U surge list (if you intend to make use of that Stormchaser Mage), Spawnbinder Mage is a better card than Searing Light in the R/W ally decks, and Unnatural Endurance is probably more valuable than Zulaport Chainmage in R/b aggro lists (that usually have eldrazi synergies, but can have ally synergies as well). It certainly looks to me like you made the 4th or 5th most logical pick here.

P2P1 is awful all around. It is a dead pack, but you still have Holdout Settlement vs Akoum Flameseeker vs Umara Entangler (if you are still considering R/U after pack 1)... and you picked a misc. white common? I don't understand that pick at all (I guess you're trying to stay open, but I think you should be taking either the red spell or the land here). The fact that you didn't make any of these choices meant that you had the exact same decision when the pack came back for P2P9 - and you still had to send the red spell and Umara Entangler after committing to R/U.

P3P1 I'm definitely taking a mediocre 2-drop in Coralhelm Guide. P3P4 and P3P5 I'm definitely taking Looming Spires over white/unplayable spells. P3P7 I'm definitely adding Boiling Earth to my sideboard instead of Courier Griffin.

Disappointing third pack though, that's for sure. In retrospect it would have been better to be in R/W since we knew the guys to our right were shipping white and taking blue. We basically just hijacked the blue spells from the people to our right during pack 2 after they cut them in pack 1, and they starting hijacking our red spells in pack 3 since we failed to cut them in pack 2. Maybe if we shipped them some white commons and a late Wall of Resurgence, they would have been playing those white spells we didn't want, or if we took the white spells and shipped them their blue spells, we'd have a stronger deck that would continue to get paid off in pack 3.

If you want my opinion for what went wrong for you here - you can chalk this one up to a tiny bit of bad luck from pack 3, but a lot of inadequate signalling on your end that you can work on (which should go a long way in preventing unfortunate pack 3s in your future). I know it sucks to send great spells down the line, but when you want people to be playing those colours because you don't think it's an option for you to play it - just ship it. Don't worry about hate-drafting a Wall of Resurgence or Planar Outburst within the first 8 picks of a given pack - just send them down until you're confident you'll have your 22 spells for your maindeck. The biggest thing to see from this draft though, is that we should have been happy to see powerful white spells because we should have been taking them in packs 1 and 2 while actively trying to avoid the blue spells.

One thing you need to be aware of though; every time you think you're drafting a R/U deck in the middle of pack 2, but end up building a R/W deck at the end of pack 3... that IS a train-wreck, that should be very, very rare for you when you get better at signalling, and that IS something you have much more control over when you start paying attention to it. I don't think many of us have the discipline to abandon Stormchaser Mage when we see Jori En, Ruin Diver though... I'm pretty sure most of us trainwreck just like you did in this case

Thanks for posting this one! I really enjoyed analyzing it. Best of luck in the next ones.

Hey gentlemen, I've been jamming a eldrazi list on MTGO for the past couple of weeks and I'm pretty happy with how strong it seems even in the current metagame. I'll post my list and some of the things I've learned while playing it.

So, some notes about the deck:

1: The strongest reason to play this deck is the value you can get from your manabase. You have 4 manlands like the 4-colour midrange lists, but you also have 3 Diabolic Edicts and 4 Planeswalker-esque lands that can bury people in cards in the late game. Other midrange lists have to be able to beat your spells, but they really struggle trying to beat your lands in the grindy games.

2: This list beats up on Jace in a ridiculous fashion. He wails, he gets snared, he gets wrapped in silk, or he gets strangled. This is a great list to play if you're aiming to beat the Jace decks.

3: All of the exile-based removal makes your game 1 against rally so much stronger than other mid-range lists. Even in sideboarding I often trim down on a Wasteland Strangler and Blight Herder to make sure I don't process too many creatures back into their yard.

4: Sea Gate Wreckage is the defining card of this deck. The entire list is warped around it. Ripping too many lands (where I still have one stranded in hand on turn 7 or so, after making all my land drops) is the only time I've ever been unimpressed with this card. This is the reason there are only 24 lands + 4 Hedron Crawler (new modification) in a midrange list that should probably otherwise have 25 or 26 lands. I'm still on the fence about this aspect of the deck, I'm considering using Hedron Archive or Seer's Lantern for analogous effects, and I'm still trying to maximize the strength and consistency of the wreckage... but this is THE reason to play this list.

5: The only matchup I've felt like I might not be favoured in so far is Eldrazi Ramp. I am happy to play every other Tier 1 list right now.

6: I was initially jamming Reality Smasher in the 5-drop slot, and he was insane in certain matchups and situations. However, he was really unimpressive in this list against mono-red or r/g aggro, as well as the different flavours of Mardu Midrange with Crackling Doom (and Goblin Dark-Dwellers to flash it back). I found Blight Herder to play better against the meta right now (and better than I ever thought the card was), but that may very well change with the next standard rotation and whatever Shadows Over Innistrad brings.

In the standard leagues on MTGO I'm currently averaging between a 4-1 and a 3-2 performance with it (losses largely thanks to eldrazi ramp). I'm sure I can get this list performing better, and I'm sure it will perform better after rotation.

If any of you players are looking at adding another colour in, I recommend giving the mid-range approach a spin. I'll keep you guys posted on future changes I make to the list and if I'm able to bring my standard match-win-percentage above 80% with it (that may be months away, if at all).

Happy brewing boys, the colourless spells are real. =]

Hey Silph, I believe it's one of my comments that you're referencing here. I said that board stalls are more common, but overall, the format seems slightly faster.

What I mean by that is there's more games that are decided by a strong aggressive curve (in my experience so far) due to the strength of the support mechanic, how fast the U/R prowess decks can be, and just how difficult some commons are to stop (like Tajuru Pathwarden) when you can't simply remove them. For example, suppose you're playing G/W and you're able to curve out a T2 Snapping Gnarlid, T3 Kor Scythemaster, T4 Saddleback Lagac, and follow it up on T5 with a removal spell of some kind. Assuming you hit your landfall triggers, you swing for 3 on T3, 8 on T4 (thanks to Lagac's support), and then swing for 11 on T5 (with open mana or a removal spell).

The only curve I saw in 3xBFZ that put out that much damage that quickly involved Tajuru Stalwart (converge 3), Munda, Ambush Leader, and Resolute Blademaster (notice how it relies on 3 colours of mana for the common, a high-pick uncommon, and a rare; versus the 3 common spells in a slightly-above-average aggressive curve from G/W support). I suppose some of the G/R landfall curves can threaten to put out 20+ damage by turn 5, such as Snapping Gnarlid -> Valakut Predator -> Beligerant Whiptail ( = 3 + 7 + 11, while still being able to cast a removal spell on turn 5), but it wasn't very common to play with or against G/R landfall lists in the finals (partially because of how bad the landfall creatures are at defending against an aggressive curve from an opponent; something the support creatures in OGW seem to be strong at doing).

There's also some pretty savage curves from U/R prowess lists as well, and the red spells in general (Maw of Kozilek, with 2 colourless sources, represents swinging for 6 on turn 5 if it's unblocked).

I'm just finding that some of the strongest draws with 2 OGW packs added into the mix tend to end games very, very quickly. I'm a little more leery about jamming a 7-drop into my maindeck because of it.

However, those defensive bodies from U/W in 3xBFZ you're listing... Compare Vestige of Emrakul to Maw of Kozilek, Fortified Rampart to Makindi Aeronaut (surprisingly main-deckable with enough support spells), Benthic Infiltrator to Blinding Drone, and the uncommon Tide Drifter to the uncommon Wall of Resurgence. There's a few more defensive bodies at common that were frequently seen in 3xBFZ, such as Kozilek's Sentinel, Silent Skimmer, and Giant Mantis... But, look at what OGW is throwing in from the commons: Zada's Commando (pretty great on defense, especially if it picks up a +1/+1 counter or two), Vampire Envoy, Kozilek's Translator, Loam Larva (helps splash basic Wastes as a kicker), Netcaster Spider (shuts down all the 2-power fliers, ALL OF THEM), Ondu War Cleric (helps take the game even longer when he's not bashing in or doing broken things with Serene Steward), Affa Protector... many of these are going to be sitting in people's sideboards to bring in against aggressive decks too (I often find myself with 3 or 4 of them to choose from for games 2 and 3).

So to me, I guess I'm just noticing that aggressive curves are more common and more powerful with OGW, primarily thanks to support and surge... but the higher number of defensive creatures mean that games can go very, very long, especially in games 2 and 3. If you're trying to 3-0, you need to have a ways to win through boards of 6+ creatures vs 6+ creatures, but you can't just be losing to nut-draws from the aggressive OGW commons (while holding 7-drops in hand) either.

For an example, in one of the drafts I 3-0d, I had a pretty strong U/B devoid list that was able to put damage out very quickly, and it was strong aggressive curves backed by tempo and removal that contributed to fairly quick wins for me in the first 2 rounds... only to be matched up against a strong G/W support list that also went 2-0, where we ended up playing very long and drawn out games where he couldn't put too many +1/+1 counters on any one particular creature to make it larger than my eldrazi (otherwise it just gets tapped down by Blinding Drone), but I couldn't swing in with my Havoc Sower (without it getting eaten by a triple-block+ of 3/6 dudes, where I would only be able to eat one or two of them)... I had to wait until I could pump the thing 6 times, with instant-speed bounce back-up, before I could start serving it in. I'm pretty sure both of us crushed the first two rounds with powerful aggressive curves, only to play against eachother in the finals where even our removal spells and strong synergy couldn't easily break the board stall to put damage through and end games. That draft (which is increasingly seeming typical) sums up what I mean when I say "the format seems a bit more aggressive, but board stalls are also more common."

This may just be the MTGO pre-release experience though, and my experience may not be typical of the format in general. At this point though, that's what I'm preparing to play against as I try to draft a strong main-deck.

I tend to agree with you on this thing Sene. I had a copy in one of my paper pre-release pools, but sadly didn't get to see it in any games where the game didn't end before my hand was empty (UR prowess OP).

My approach to it when it comes to limited is to windmill slam this thing, be happy that I have a great 18th land that probably doubles as a better draw spell than blue has ever gotten in any limited format, and see what I can do about avoiding drafting blue's countermagic and white spells.

I've been been breaking up the MTGO sealed pools with the occasional swiss draft, and my experience is that every colour (exluding white, unless you open Eldrazi Displacer) is happy to splash in two colourless sources for the activated abilities on the common eldrazi cycle, no matter what. Picking this thing early incentivizes/rewards picking Spatial Contortion early (since there's some white, green, and prowess drafters that ship it) and aiming for a final list with 4+ colourless sources + scions. No shame in first picking a colourless mana source when it's got this much upside, IMO.

I sadly haven't had the opportunity to see if I'm over-valuing this thing or not yet in limited. It seems like OGW made the format slightly faster while simultaneously making board stalls more common... So I'm not sure if it's going to be as good as it probably would have been in 3xBFZ.

Regardless, it seems insane, and I don't ever intend to ship a copy when I see one. Every list I've drafted so far has had absolutely no problem splashing colourless activations, and the odd colourless spell here and there. I would much rather have this than any blighted land.

Anybody else have experience with the card yet? Let me know if I'm setting myself up for a train-wreck by first-picking a forced colourless splash plz.

Quote from FTW1987 »

The black was tempting, especially because of the removal. Soothsayer card advantage looked nice too. One of the big drawbacks I see is that a lot of the black creatures (Reaver Drone, Skitterskin, Sky Scourer) can't really be played even post-board because your colorless count will be too low. Unfortunately the format is bad at supporting both Allies and Devoid at the same time. Maybe Black is still worth it, but that is a big strike against some of your potential SB options.

Oh crap, lol. You're definitely right here; I didn't even count colourless creatures in the white/black list before I listed these sideboard spells. I think I was still subconsciously assuming we still had Blinding Drone, Eldrazi Skyspawner, and two Gravity Negators as well.

With only two colourless 5-drops, boarding in either Reaver Drone or Skitterskin is not an option. Skitterskin does a poor job of delivering beats on turn 5 when you need to tap out to turn on his regeneration (if you're lucky enough to have one of the two creatures that can do so). Additionally, there's stronger common creatures with 5 toughness in OGW, so Skitterskin is going to be even worse at getting damage in. Reaver Drone is also risky; we're happy to respond to Sludge Crawler or Expedition Envoy (or any 2-drop with 2-toughness) with a 1cmc dude that trades on the block... provided our 1cmc dude won't do more damage to us with a built-in trigger than any one drop ever would have if they simply choose not to attack into it! Lol, it's safe to assume both cards are 100% irrelevant in the sideboard (and even when it may seem alright to bring them in, the main-deck is too strong to find anything to cut for them).

In my defense though, I didn't ever recommend he play or sideboard-in a Sky Scourer!

Also, Thekk; I PMd you a wall-of-text. Hope it's helpful!

Quote from FTW1987 »

UR is tempting but both colors are shallow. Not enough playables, especially low cost creatures. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I finally found a pool where I don't play Rolling Thunder. This is a sad, sad day.

You tried to play 4 colors (white-blue-black-colorless). I think that is a mistake. Greed loses more games than it wins.

You have 16 easy playables in white + colorless (more if you run some subpar stuff), so you just need another color to contribute 6 cards that advance the gameplan.

Black offers

• Oblivion Strike
  
• Tar Snare
  
• Demon's Grasp
  
• Malakir Soothsayer
  
• Kozilek's Shrieker
  
• Carrier Thrall
  
• Mire's Malice
  

That's 1 premium removal + 2 more removal + card advantage + 1 evasion

Blue offers

• Blinding Drone
  
• Eldrazi Skyspawner
  
• Cyclone Sire
  
• Negate
  
• Void Shatter
  
• Sweep Away
  
• Containment Membrane
  
• Gravity Negator
  

That's 2 tempo "removal" + multiple flyers + tapper + 2 counters

Black is tempting but I would also go with blue.

This man speaks truth! I agree with pretty much everything he says here, except for that last line about how he'd still play the blue over the black here. I think both black/blue are somewhat comparable in a vacuum, but the strong black spells (and it's superior removal package) synergize with the white spells better (and provide more of what the white pool wants/needs). Additionally, the black spells give you way more help in post-sideboard games, in the ways that the list is likely to need help (aka vs aggro or insane removal packages; we have no problems playing vs bombs or winning a long game)!

I spent about 10 minutes building two lists out of this pool, and another 10 minutes tuning both of them, and then over an hour writing about how strong I felt this pool was, and heavily criticizing the list you registered. The criticisms were intended to help you out in the future sealed PTQs you play in, but overall the post came across as arrogant and rude (and I'm not sure you would appreciate the criticisms). Instead, I'm just going to post the list I would have registered and the list I think YOU should have registered based off how you (and everyone else in this thread so far) assessed the pool.
If you don't like this list, I'll throw in my 2 cents for the list as well (minor variations from FTW1987's list): If you want to hear some blistering criticisms regarding your registered deck-list and read through the original post I spent over an hour writing, just let me know and I can PM it to you.

Best of luck in the future, brother. Thanks for posting this pool.

Quote from neoasimov »

@dekyda thanks for this great post!

About ISD, yes indeed, it is not cheap However, the sealed/drafting option may be interesting if we remain only the two of us to play together, so maybe worth considering.

About Khans of Tarkir, it looks nice and appears to be widely available (so cheap). What about Dragon of Tarkir and Fate Reforged, worth anything? (if we have two boxes to buy)

You're very welcome man, welcome back into the game!

If it's just the two of you playing for the time being, you may find drafting it to not be too terribly fun (there's a lot of 2-man draft formats, though none have mass appeal or are supported competitively). However, sealed-deck is still a thing and a great way to play with packs when it's just 2 people.

KTK is a very great set, and has a very fun theme to it. FRF is regarded as a less valuable set, with lower quality cards. However, FRF was built to be drafted with either KTK (which came before it) or DTK (which came after it. The themes and play-styles present in FRF kinda blend aspects from both KTK and DTK (and it overall ended up serving as a detriment to the limited environments, as opposed to enhancing them, IMO). Still a fine set, and a lot of fun (half the KTK mechanics are present, and half the DTK mechanics are present). It just didn't support the sweet 3-colour clans very well, and the value of singles in the set is pretty unimpressive.

DTK is a great set as well, but it wasn't built to be drafted with KTK (so I have no idea if they would be fun to draft together). It was always drafted with FRF, so I'm not sure how the DTK limited environment is by itself; I think it would be less unique/interesting than KTK though. Regardless, DTK is another strong set with some great cards (it's going to be standard legal for another 9 months as well, where KTK rotates out in about 3). There's a few modern/eternal staples in DTK, and all the dragons running around the set put Shivan Dragon to shame if you're looking for that "casual" appeal! Still, you can't go wrong buying DTK either IMO.

Quote from neoasimov »

So my understanding is that the Battle For Zendikar block is really not that great, right?

A lot of people say this, but I personally disagree on it. It's just a bit different than most other recent sets, and the limited environment was quite strange and unique (and difficult to adjust to). Overall the cards are weaker than what we're used to from Khans of Tarkir (so it didn't shake standard up much at all), and a lot of people criticize the set quite heavily for that reason alone. However, it's only been out 3 months, and there's definitely some great cards that will see play in many formats in the set (even if they're not especially valuable). The art on the expedition lands is breathtaking though, and the value of one of those showing up in 1/3 boxes does a lot to justify a purchase.

As for the new OGW set... a lot of the highly competitive players (in all format) are pretty excited about how this one is going to play out. Nobody knows how fun limited is going to be (we've only had a chance to play sealed/draft with it in paper for about a week), but it's looking to be pretty sweet with the "eldrazi are consuming zendikar and eating the mana, everybody splash the wasted mana to cast some wasted eldrazi spells!" theme. Nobody knows how it's going to shake up any of the constructed formats yet either, but there do seem to be many objectively powerful spells within it. I consider OGW to be a "spike set" (designed for competitive tournament players) just like Khans of Tarkir and Return to Ravnica were. I wouldn't be surprised if the people complaining about BFZ block started singing a different tune in about 3 months...

Quote from neoasimov »

What about the Core Set (2015?). Why do they exists and do they worth anything? (except buying singles I guess)

What about Magic Origin? (doesn't look like a core set, and it is not in a block... what is its purpose?)

So, the core sets are what used to be used to help newer players get into the game, and they're a remnant of the old "set-release style" that ended with the release of Magic Origins (the final core set). The old style was always "build a new world/plane every year and release it as a major expansion, then release another expansion that builds on the story, then release another expansion that concludes the story." However, they want to release sets every 3 months (instead of every 4 months), and they wanted to release something that helped bring people into the game. The 4th release per year was traditionally a "core-set" that takes popular elements from magic's past, and tries to present them in a rather simplified manner to appeal to new players, while simultaneously printing some exciting new spells and creating a simple-but-fun limited environment for the competitive players.

That model wasn't accomplishing what they wanted it to accomplish. The 2nd set in a 3-set "block" was always underwhelming (as you can see with FRF, they still have a hard time getting it right), and the core set wasn't ideal for bringing new players in (they're accomplishing this with XBox, Playstation, and other digital releases and the commander format now).

So, they switched their model. There's still 4 sets released per year, but they're 2 separate worlds/planes ("blocks"). They present the plane and it's story in one set, and they conclude the story and leave the plane with the next set. BFZ returns to zendikar, OGW concludes the 'return to zendikar' story, and the next set is returning to the "Innistrad" world. They're probably aiming to build one new world per year, and return to an old world once per year. Core sets are gone, and 3-set "blocks" are gone. The standard rotation has changed a bit too; instead of 4 sets rotating out of standard every year, being replaced by 1 set initially (and followed up with 3 more), they're now rotating 2 sets out together twice per year, being replaced by 1 set initially (and it's follow-up expansion 3 months later). It should make limited environments more exciting for the 3-6 months they're played (as opposed to the 3-9 months in the past), it should make standard more interesting by shaking it up twice a year instead of once a year (where powerful spells from a newer set could dominate the format for far too long). It should, overall, make the game more fresh and exciting! Because of this, though, you won't see another core set and wonder "why the fawk do these things even exist!?"

Quote from neoasimov »

Finally @dekyda, what is the best place to buy singles in Canada (online?)

It depends on where you live, I guess. Eastern Canada typically buys from Face2Face (based out of Montreal, I believe), Central Canada usually buys from Fusion Gaming (based out of Winnipeg), and Western Canada usually buys from Magic Stronghold (based out of Vancouver). All 3 of those businesses have great reputations (and great staff in most players experiences!) and are a big part of competitive magic in Canada. There's a lot of smaller shops and businesses to buy from as well; just shop around! You can use TCGplayer to find singles that smaller businesses have in stock, or you can use PucaTrade to get rid of valuable cards you don't want in exchange for valuable cards you do want (it's kinda like a massive trade network, where every players' collection is a tiny business, and every tiny business is a customer of thousands of other tiny businesses; a really cool concept).

As you play more, focus on expanding your options for how to obtain the cards you want; be comfortable shopping with the major businesses, shopping on-line, trading on-line, and build as big of a social play/trade network (in person) as you possibly can. It's really daunting getting back into the game and rebuild a collection, but after a year or so it gets a lot easier (and a lot less expensive when you're smart about it).

Have fun getting back into the game! Hope I was able to help you out here.

Yo, fellow Canuck here. You were playing before I even started (around Urza's block), but I got back into the game with Innistrad.

If you can find a box of ISD (it's expensive!) I highly recommend picking it up to see what the new age of magic looks like. If you like limited (sealed/drafting) ISD is still regarded as one of the best limited environments in Magic's history, and I love drafting 3xISD to this day (though I am rarely able to do it outside of it being brought back on MTGO). It's where double-faced cards were introduced, it has a cool eastern-european gothic/horror theme, and there's a lot of interesting draft archetypes that are pretty unique when it comes to game play. There's also some pretty valuable cards in the set, and a fair number of staples.

Sticking with recent sets that are still in Standard rotation, picking up a box of Khans of Tarkir is probably the best long-term value. It has reprints of the onslaught fetchlands, and a fair number of rare/uncommon/common staples for modern and legacy, making it easier to build lists (or trade away for value in the future). Also, the draft environment was pretty fun and unique as well (3-colour wedges, each with a different style)!

Some people will disagree with me on this, but I would also recommend picking up a box of Battle for Zendikar. It doesn't have as much value when it comes to the worth of the singles, but you do still have the chance of ripping an expedition to get some bang for your buck. I mostly recommend it because I found it was a blast to draft, again with some unique themes and unique gameplay. It had a fairly cool theme to it (natural zendikar/allies VS devoid/colourless eldrazi), even if didn't live up to the hype surrounding original Zendikar.

But man, magic has changed a lot. The rules have changed, creatures are actually good now, spells are a lot weaker, and you won't be seeing any more quotes from Shakespeare in flavour text. Overall though, I'd say playing magic got a lot more enjoyable!

If you're looking for the most economical way to get back into the game, buying a box isn't it (as others pointed out; buying singles from the secondary market is way better if you know what you want to play). If you're just looking to jump into one of the modern environments they've built for sealed-deck or draft, and see how magic has changed over the years, then feel free to pick up a box; for people getting back into the game, it's money well spent to start you off again (provided you're going to enjoy playing with the commons/uncommons that are only worth pennies on the secondary market).

Best of luck to you, and happy spell-slinging.

I think every player deserves to feel satisfied (or smug) when they independently come to a logical conclusion (or a successful result) that the broader community wasn't initially able to, and only caught on (at large) after seeing others perform well with it.

There is a massive group-think culture within the MTG community, and a general worship of the opinions of professional players (which stifles the creativity of the player-base as a whole). Too many people draft a new set according to LSV's pick orders. Too many people blindly play the standard lists Gerry Thompson praises as "good." Too many criticisms of other players' (often legitimate) ideas are copy-pastas of something a pro wrote, and shared through a major website, two weeks prior.

The result of this group think is a massive, negative community backlash whenever somebody tries to criticize the popular opinion. There is a general consensus among players that their opinions aren't valid, or they're too incompetent to understand why a card/archetype/strategy is good or bad, simply because a bigger name disagrees with them.

The fact is... pros are often wrong. The community reads a lot of articles that are 100% garbage.

I have massive respect for LSV because he's one of the few pros that doesn't follow the group. He comes to his own independent evaluations of cards, and shares them with the community as a whole. When everybody else was saying Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was the worst flip-walker from origins, the only person I saw praise the card was LSV. I like to think he just said to himself; "F*** the rest of you nubs, you have no idea what you're talking about when you say Kytheon, Hero of Akros is strong." I hope he feels very smug by showing up 99% of the other authors posting card evaluations at origins, because he has a right to (and he deserves to).

That said, he often fails to accurately assess a limited environment by the time he posts his limited reviews (which is understandable, given that he posts his reviews before the pre-release of the set). Every player has the right to disagree with him (and the rest of the professional community with a loud voice), and I personally think they should disagree as often as possible; they'll either learn the hard way, or pull ahead of the pack. When LSV is obviously way off the mark, he'll go and write another article explaining how he was wrong, why he was initially wrong, how he came to realize he was wrong, and what his new perspective is. For that, I have even more respect for him as both a magic player and a fellow human being.

The only real way, IMO, for the community as a whole to break out of this group think mentality is to adopt the mentality of LSV, not accept his perspectives as gospel. That means being able to say "the larger community is wrong here, and I'm going to do my own thing." I think individuals should feel proud when they end up being right, and they should be humble when they end up being wrong.

I would love to read a weekly series on CFB or SCG where somebody goes over all the articles that were published on the major webpages in the past, and points out just how horribly wrong pros can sometimes be. I want to re-read all the articles saying Tarmogoyf was unplayable jank destined for the bulk bin (while Werebear was a great 2-drop in threshold lists)! I want to go over the decklists from Pro Tour DTK and see just how many Den Protectors, Deathmist Raptors, Collected Companys, and Kolaghan's Commands were actually played!

I think it would be great for the community if every author with a loud voice held themselves just as accountable for their perspectives as LSV does.

However, in the mean time... I'm just going to say good on you for drafting and being successful with Kalastria Healer, good on you for having success with a control list prioritizing Ancient Crabs and card advantage, and good on you for doing your own thing and being successful with it! You should feel satisfied, you should feel smug, and I hold nothing against you for being proud of being successful while going against the grain.

That is one of the things I enjoy most about magic; being successful while disagreeing with the broader community. You can be damn sure I'll feel smug about it when I'm right, and you can be damn sure I'll be humble and learn from my mistakes when I'm wrong. Most of all, you can be damn sure I don't automatically 100% respect the opinions of professional players, or successful players, unless their opinions make sense to me; I adopted that perspective shortly after future sights release, and I don't think anybody can fault me for holding that perspective.

I don't view myself as superior to anybody else, so I hope my "smugness" isn't ugly or socially difficult to be around. Though I can understand how irritating and frustrating it is to be around people that are unjustifiably arrogant and only serve to stifle the group, instead of encouraging diversity, creativity, and progress within. I think they're two separate issues, and only the latter type of "smugness" is a problem.

So to you and your rogue draft strategies, I say "good on you and keep growing as a magic player!" To Sene, and his 80+% win-rate in 3xBFZ limited with his 19-lands-always mantra, I say "good on you and keep growing as a magic player!" To myself, who loves initially forcing black in 3xBFZ in the hopes that I see a 5th pick Brood Monitor (yet again, since green is so terrible!), allowing me to build an insane G/B Swarm Surge list (the REAL G/B archetype) as the primary reason for going infinite for over 40 3xBFZ 8-4 drafts on MODO, I say "good on you and keep growing as a magic player!"

To me, both pride and humility are very respectable qualities within individuals; don't be afraid of showing either of them.

Thanks, silph, for starting an excellent thread!

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

You should not make assumptions on a player's ability without knowing what the player built, or what they played against.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

What I ended up playing was B/R/W. As I felt no two color combination was worth crap.

In white, Kor Scythe master was pretty useful when played on curve, and smite the monstrous was useful more often than not. I also had spawnbinder mage, ondu war cleric and of course reflector mage. Amazing how happy you can be to draw spawnbinder mage in a crappy pool.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

Another difference is that I played Kor scythemaster over akoum flameseeker. It was stricktly better in all situations since I never had to block scions, and it couldn't be double blocked by them.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

Maw of kozilek shut down the deck. A 5 toughness 2 power four drop is a nightmare for me.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

What I played was basically your list, except I didn't play seer's lantern,

I'm sorry, how exactly is any list that can't beat a 2/5 that can pump into a 4/3 or a 6/1 "exactly the same list" as the one I provided for you? How is your "exactly the same list" playing unnecessarily weak creatures like Ondu War Cleric, Kor Scythemaster, and Spawnbinder Mage? Do you understand that you ruined your mana-base to play them? That you made it more likely you'll be unable to cast your strong U/R spells on curve by deciding to play weak spells from a third colour?

As for Seer's Lantern, with such a low curve you often don't need to waste a turn to cast this, and you're still happy with this spell if it's the last spell in your hand that gets cast; you can cast a 2-drop on turn 4, or a 3-drop on turn 5 (along with casting this thing). It also allows you to surge out the Boulder Salvo on turn 4 if necessary. It triggers prowess, and if you have nothing else to do on turn 5, it develops your mana while giving you a scry. In the late game, scrying a land to the bottom is often equivalent to drawing a card. It's very, very strong in sealed deck even if you don't see any significant reason to play it.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

The deck doesn't have much late game power, because the biggest thing it has is a 4/4. While I did have flying creatures, the deck cannot efectively stall the ground battle while it attacks in the air, because pretty much everything you have dies on block. And I don't know about your experience, but I didn't face any decks that were slow enough that this deck would overwhelm them.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

I liked reflector mage msotly due to it being a 2/3 ironically. The bounce was gravy, as I was on the defensive whenever I drew it, and my opponents always had something else to play.

Your deck was always on the defensive and had no late game power because you went straight 3-colour to play the weak white creatures, and probably cut Coralhelm Guide and Akoum Flameseeker (and probably some of your smaller fliers as well) that actually are relevant (even powerful) in the late-game.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

Also, note that there is no way of activating gravity negator naturally. You can only do it with cultivator drone. I'm not sure if I could have afforded to tap it during my durn but they were never in play at the same time so it never came up.

Gravity Negator is still barely playable as a 2/3 flier for 4, and this is one of the reasons I'm happy to play Seer's Lantern as well. Between the lantern, Cultivator Drone, and the scion from Eldrazi Skyspawner, you'll have 2.5 colourless sources to activate the negator (and threatening to activate, especially when it represents swinging for lethal damage in the air, is as powerful as actually activating it).

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

I'm sorry, but your assesment is completely wrong. I'm not sure what it'S based on honestly. Everyone seems to think that any player they talk to is worse than they are by default.

Quote from Phaseshifter3D »

However, here is one of my last pools which I also thought was weak. Let me know if you disagree and find it strong.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/limited-sealed-draft/sealed-pool-draftcap-discussion/618931-what-would-you-have-done-with-this-pool-origins

Despite your inability to accept criticisms after posting a sealed pool to a forum asking for criticism (which is why I felt offering criticism on your pool in the first place was a waste of time), I did still read over your Origins Sealed-pool and try to build the strongest list out of it I possibly could. There seemed to be a pretty reasonable deck in there too.

I'm sorry brother, but I stand by what I said earlier; there is a strong list in this pool, and it was your inability to find it and play it (not your inability to "get lucky" when opening packs) that was responsible for your undesirable performance. I hope the time I spent critiquing your sealed pools is appreciated, and it helps you play better in the future.

Best of luck to you.

Hey PhaseShifter3D, I'm only replying here because you specifically asked for my advice on this pool as well.

The first thing to recognize with this pool is that both black and blue are so terribly lacking in playables that they cannot make the primary or secondary colour of the maindeck. The only black spells that I'm happy to play here are Eyeblight Assassin, the two Reave Souls, and Read the Bones. The only blue spells I'm happy to play are Separatist Voidmage and Watercourser. In addition, both colours only offer 3-4 cards as acceptable (but weak) filler. If any of these colours were to make the maindeck, we would require another colour that had at least 13 playables (which is very unlikely, but in this pool green is able to).

White appears to have the best spells in this pool with Knightly Valor (bomb uncommon that ends games, especially on fliers), Suppression Bonds (great removal), a Totem-Guide Hartebeest to search them up and provide a solid defensive body, and some great flying creatures to fill out the curve. After laying out the white spells I'm happy to play, the white half of the deck looks like so:


We'll notice from this curve that we have zero 2-drops (HUGE problem!). We only have 1 removal spell. Also, 3 of our creatures are only respectable when we're beating them down (Anointer of Champions, and the two Charging Griffins). Thankfully, we have the hartebeest to play defense, and a Knightly Valor to make any of our evasive beaters into a stronger beater + powerful blocker). The second colour DOES need 2 drops to help fill out the curve though, ideally another removal spell or two, and more creatures that can play both offense and defense.

With that in mind, I think we can rule red out. Green, however, seems to fill all the holes within the white spells. It is also our deepest colour, and can offer 13+ playables if we need it!



Alright, that's a lot of spells. There's too many pump spells (I rarely play a 2nd pump spell in any list unless it's extremely aggressive or lacking removal). Some of the 3-drops are fairly weak in synergizing with the white spells (Yeva's Forcemage is only good when you have 5+ 2cmc creatures, and the rest of your deck is strong at beating down), and white is already contributing two fliers at this point in the curve. Keeping in mind what white is contributing, and that we're currently at 27 spells, I'm going to try to cull this down to about 20 (and see what we want to fill the last two or three slots with).



So, this leaves us with 20 spells and a fairly solid curve (unfortunately, a little light on 2 drops). We have 2 removal spells, a pair of great bombs, and a lot of evasive creatures with very powerful green bodies holding down the ground or bashing face.

If we play all 5 of our 5cmc spells, as well as the 6cmc Joraga Invocation, I'm inclined to play 18 lands. We have an Evolving Wilds, as well as a Llanowar Wastes and Battlefield Forge, which means if we splash a black spell or a red spell we can have our 3 sources with only playing a single mountain or swamp. Sadly, there isn't really a red or black spell worth splashing for here (IMO).

Also, another problem in the list so far is the Anointer of Champions. It's a 1 mana white spell with only 7 other white spells surrounding it so far (meaning it's our secondary colour, we're going to be playing more forests than plains, and it's going to be harder to cast on turn 1 because of this). We also don't have the most insanely aggressive deck to abuse it's activated ability; some significant portion of the time, it's just going to be a 1/1 for that's going to try to chump-block to keep us alive and help win the race (unacceptable). Because of this, I'm inclined to cut it.

With 18 lands and 19 spells (so far), we need to find 3 more to fill out our curve. We need a high creature count (because of Joraga Invocation, Knightly Valor, and Wild Instincts, so I'm looking at playing the Honored Hierarch, Auramancer, and putting a Yeva's Forcemage back in. That puts us here:


Yeah! Now we're talking. This list is starting to look like the ideal type of list we hope to open in sealed-deck. Great mana, good curve, removal, bombs, tricks, and a plethora of creatures that turn sideways, bash face, and win games.

It's by no means a perfect list; I've definitely opened and built better (though I've also had strong results with worse). We only have 4 proactive spells to cast by turn 2 (and Honored Hierarch and Gather the Pack are on the weaker side of the spectrum). Our 5-cmc slot is pretty crowded (but all of the spells are so good that I don't want to cut any of the Rhox Maulers; those things are a nightmare to see across the board, and we're happy to have as many on our side as possible). Additionally, there are much bombier bombs than what we've opened (the best way to get better at Origins sealed-deck is to get better at ripping open Sentinel of the Eternal Watch, imo).

I am still considering the possibility of playing 2 swamps, the Llanowar Wastes (cutting two forests and a plains), and running both the Reave Souls instead of playing some of the weaker spells... I think that may be unnecessarily risky, since the Reave Souls are weaker in sealed than they are in draft, and they're not exactly the type of spell that can help us claw back into a game if they get stranded in our hand until turn 8.

Even still, if we play good magic and we're on the favorable side of variance, I think this list can still go 5-0. If we play sub-par magic, and we're on the wrong side of variance, we can expect to go 3-2 or 2-3. Regardless, I would expect myself to go 4-1 with it on average.

This was a fairly tricky pool to build. The important thing to recognize is that green must be played in this pool. I should have seen that before I started looking at the impressive white spells, but we got there in the end anyways. It's possible to build G/r, G/u, or G/b, but I think white is by far the best colour to be pairing the green with here.

It was rude of me to criticize your victim-of-variance attitude in the other thread, but to me, that is the biggest problem every player faces in improving their win-rate and becoming a better player. Sealed-deck is especially bad for this because of the reputation it has for being a bomb-centric format (which to some extent, it is). I still believe the lists you built from both of these pools were inferior to what could have been built (even though you didn't post what you built from this pool), and I hope you continue to post your pools and ask for feedback (and appreciate the people who take the time to offer it to you) in the future.

Best of luck improving your limited game; it's the toughest way to play magic!

Quote from Qwazarr »

I love the humor you put on your posts bro (sis?). My strategy at the moment is just "wait until you gather your stuff and appreciate every victory you can steal", I had decent success and I'm fairly happy with the game (probably a bit tired of 4c goodstuff decks, but well fetches rotate in April so that isn't a real problem), also I found myself being an awesome bluffer, I can't count how many games I won just baiting a counter or preventing the Atarka player from attacking letting him think I had a removal spell up. My best advice for OP is to just enjoy the game, we'll find a way to get better/have a decent deck, we just need some time to practice/gather a decent collection.

Thanks man, I try.

As for bluffing, good on you for being successful with it. I've got a few awesome successful bluff stories, but probably way more games lost from trying to bluff people who wouldn't respect it.

Enjoying the game is the best advice, and getting better does come with time and dedication (good strategic discussions don't hurt either).

I'm looking forward to the next rotation as well, and I'm glad they'll be happening twice a year now. GL to you guys in the next standard too

Quote from Dorvan »

Your green in this pool is definitely decent. I like Blue/Green as a base, splashing a third color, likely black. Your evaluations on Fathom Feeder and Baloth null seems way off. Nulldrifter is a fantastic value card: it's a 3-for-1 that provides a significant board impact the turn it's cast. As for fathom feeder, normally a 1/1 deathtouch isn't something you'd splash for, but you're fine casting this later in the game, as the card drawing is highly relevant as a mana sink.

Totally agreeing with Dorvan here, sorry PhaseShifter3D... In sealed, a 6-mana 3-for-1 IS a bomb and IS worth splashing for if your manabase allows it. Fathom Feeder isn't just a 1/1 deathtouch. In a sealed format full of 7-mana 7/8s and what-not, splashing a Typhoid Rats doesn't seem too absurd... I splashed Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim into my GW support list at the pre-release simply because I only had two other removal spells. Fathom Feeder, however, is able to dominate a long game with it's activated ability if you don't need to use it's body to block and kill a ground pounder. In 3xBFZ limited, turn 2 Fathom Feeder is the play I fear the most.

However, I'm going to disagree with everybody else on how to build this pool. You have two good removal spells in red backed by some strong bodies and a reasonable curve, which are supported quite strongly by the strong curve of your blue creatures (many of which fly). In addition, you have the R/U Manland and the R/W Manland, plus an Evolving Wilds and a Meandering River... Meaning you can splash a white spell (or two) at essentially no risk to your mana-base. Thankfully, you have an awesome Reflector Mage and a Smite the Monstrous if you feel the main-deck needs more removal.
You have essentially perfect mana for these spells; 4 white sources to splash two cards that are just as powerful on turn 8 as they are on turns 3 and 4. You have 10 sources of red as your primary colour and 9 sources of blue as your secondary (if we consider evolving wilds as a source of each colour, even though in reality we should consider it as some fraction).

You have 3 solid removal spells, a great curve with a lot of evasive beaters, and a very respectable sideboard that gives you a lot of extra play for games 2 and 3. Yeah, you have no 6+ mana bombs. In sealed, that sucks. What you do have, however, is a lot of end-game value from your mana-base, the activated abilities of your creatures, and just how strong fliers are in a format where scions and allies are clogging up boards left and right.

Sorry man, but I think you had a great pool here despite pulling lack-luster rares. This deck is better than both the decks I was able to build out of both the pools I opened (going 2-0-1 and 4-1), and I would trade either of them for this list in a heart-beat. It may not be a flashy list in any way, but this is the type of list that gets the job done and consistently performs well.

However, I get the impression you didn't come here for advice or another perspective, but rather to complain and blame variance. Learn to criticize yourself and the ways in which you can perform better, and don't let yourself constantly be at the mercy of randomness. You'll improve your win-rate much faster this way.

Best of luck in the future.

I am affectionately referring to requiring colourless mana as "wasted."

"My mana-base is wasted to the point where I have 15 colourless sources."

"I'm playing my Wasted-Orzhov brew this week."

"He needs to waste his manabase so he can cast his Reality Smasher."

"I'm going to feel a lot better about casting this Blinding Drone once it's wasted."

"Man, I'm too wasted right now. I need to draw a white mana-source so I can be productive this game."

etc. etc. etc.

I'm having too much fun with it

Quote from Qwazarr »

Quote from dekyda »

I have to admit, I really hope somebody bothered to even read this... it's a pain to write out this entire process.

I did, and found it really interesting and accurate, really thank you ^^

You're welcome brother! I wish I could offer you some pointers on how to improve your win-rate against that atarka-red player, but that's always been the type of deck I tend to ignore and accept my bad matchup whenever they nut-draw me (as heroic always tended to do against my Courser of Kruphixs)... It's a tough strategy to have a good main-deck against while still competing with the rest of the field.

You have two problems to worry about from their side of the board; they either go wide with goblin tokens + atarka's command (where the best strategic approach is to sweep the board with 2- or 3-mana sweepers like Flaying Tendrils or Kozilek's Return) or they combo out on with any creature + Become Immense + Temur Battle Rage (where the best strategic approach is cheap, instant speed removal/bounce). It's really difficult to build a list that favorably interacts with both angles of their aggression. It makes a person wish we could play something like Vapor Snag or Path to Exile to punish them when they go all-in, but our options are seriously lacking in this standard (we've got Force Away as the best bounce spell, Ultimate Price as the best instant-speed 2-cmc removal spell, and Murderous Cut that demands fetchlands + Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to be reliably cast for 3 or less mana on turn 3).

So... from the perspective of B/G Aristocrats... you can't lean on Flaying Tendrils to beat them when they go wide (maybe Virulent Plague in the board, even though it sucks against 60+% of their threats?), and it's hard for you to keep mana open during their turn to cast the 2+ cmc instant speed removal... as one G/B player to another, I recommend keeping a copy of Pharika, God of Affliction handy and on the table, and ripping up a goblin token as a sacrifice to her whenever you get matched up against that dude; perhaps she'll bestow better fortune on you than she has on me!