The Kraul bugdude from C16 comes to mind. He is, yet again, something with sacrifice.
Or Kambal. Yet again WB has something to do with lifegain/lifeloss. They really need to shake things up.
It's getting annoying.
So you go back two years ago to find a BG legend that cares about sacrifice when you could go back one year and find two that don't. You look at the last set to find a WB that drains life, when again you could have gone to last year and found one that was all about reanimation.
So it seems exactly like I said, the problem isn't the color pie or even its execution. The problem is on your end, you look at the most 'popular' focus of a color or color pair and declare the color pie as too restricting regardless of how many other representations are available.
Those are two legends I had lying in front of me. That doesn't mean I can't find more.
New ground desperately needs to be broken.
There are certain mechanics that are most prominent in a color pair, like lifegain/loss in WB to give a mechanical identity, which therefore have more cards made using them. That doesn't mean that they are the only mechanics used at all. WB has branched out to mass and targeted destruction and exiling of permanents, letting opponents discard, reanimation of permanents etc. There might be more legends using the life aspect because that is the main identity, but there are more than enough alternatives available. The color pie really isn't the problem... now I don't really agree with the Gatewatch being "generic" per se either, but that's another point.
It's nice to see other people realize how RtR completely changed Ravnica for no reason other than marketing. I made lots of post about Ravnica before so I won't start a rant here.
Again, I have to ask, what about the change made Ravnica more marketable? Why (if it is true) is that so horrible? And what would have been the alternative? Since Dissension ended with a new guildpact and multiple guilds in ruins there had to be some change. Since the guilds themselves are what makes Ravnica Ravnica, they couldn't have kept them disbanded (actually I blame Agents of Artifice for even introducing such a short-sighted plot point). The changes are also for the most part logical, some a bit out of left-field. But I really don't see the "marketability" coming into play.
Did Wizards officially state the
The Dark -> Innistrad
Khans of Tarkir -> Legends/Kamigawa
Antiques -> Kaladesh
to be true? Or is it a fan based theory?
I'm pretty sure it is the latter. Aside from the most superficial similarities these sets have nothing to do with each other. Innistrad has nothing to do with The Dark (if anything it reminds me somewhat of Ulgrotha, but that's neither here nor there). Kamigawa is a japanese inspired plane, which has nothing to do with Tarkir, which is inspired by several continental asian cultures (Temur -> Siberia, Mardu -> Mongolia etc.). Kaladesh is a aetherpunk world with indian "texture", it has about as much to do with Antiques as with Mirrodin (namely all of them have an artifact focus). And suggesting that Amonkhet is a carbon copy of Arabian Nights is laughable, those aren't even similar source materials.
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to make a distinction between original Ravnica and RTR. Seeing as how RTR played it safe and boring, while the original Ravnica was quite original. The whole period from Mirrodin to Lorwyn was IMO the most creative in Magic's history.
@ChrisBP7
Maybe retcon isn't the right word, but a lot of the things got changed in RTR in order to play it safe and for marketing reasons. Also I don't think any card in original Ravnica suggested underground oceans (how does this even work)? Of course there were cards with water in them, water is in every MTG set (islands).
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
Wizards wants to play safe in all the "return" set (or should I say, all recent sets?), so they can balance standard as easily as they can, this is not unlike MMORPG companies like Blizzard with their so-call class design and balance, a time/money saving strategy, and also makes it easier for newcomer to join the game(s).
If Wizards really wants creativity to shine, they need to forget about balance, they just have to restrict/ban cards when they become overpowered, then allow themselves and non-tournament goers to go banana on deckbuilding. I believe people who enjoy Magic are fundamentally more appealed by far out ideas than lambs in a fence.
Which is my problem with the Gatewatch as well. Lore for a game like Magic should not be limited by safe plays.
As for Ravnica menfolks, I find the idea awkward from biological point of view. If the ocean has been hidden from the sun for millenniums, how did merfolks manage to maintain their optical senses? They would, at the least, have far large eyes or have other illuminating, and their predatory body parts would become larger for easier hunting, etc, as evolution depicts in real world. And all this time, the merfolks were just ok staying underground? If Kithkin only appears on one plane, why can't one race stay off a plane? Or perhaps they make merfolks just to add cards to a certain card pool and format?
The sad thing is, they tried to do that once with a world, putting flavor before the mechanics in every way... the result was Kamigawa, which is disliked by a vast majority of players (I personally loved the flavor, but hated the mechanics and most of the cards). Also as has been stated previously you have to balance things out if you want to have a long-living game. If it becomes too complex, the entry level is too steep and the number of new players dwindles (something Magic already has a problem with). If it becomes too simple older players leave the game. If the lore dictates the mechanics fully without balancing we get stuff like Kamigawa and when mechanics do the same we get Mirrodin or worse, Urzas Saga (which was really close to killing Magic as a whole).
Since I'm a biologist, that was the only thing that bugged me about the merfolk on Ravnica as well. My solution: They are bioengineers and obviously prepared for their "uprising" to the surface. Most likely they studied Ravnica via the Undercity for quite some time, figured what they needed to be able to return to the surface and returned their eye sight via magical genetic engineering. Alternate theory: The ocean of Ravnica is full of bioluminiscent lifeforms, so that the merfolk didn't lose their eye-sight entirely (they could have made themselves organic or magic light sources too). Interestingly they at least seem to be pretty pale in relation to merfolk of other planes.
In regards to their reason for getting back to the surface: They have a philosophy about the Holdfast (the isolationist movement) and the Upwelling (the expanding one). For the last millenia they obviously put more emphasis on the Holdfast, therefore isolating themselves to their oceans, probably spying on the rest of Ravnica. When the time seemed right for the Upwelling they opened the sinkholes and took over the Combine.
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to make a distinction between original Ravnica and RTR. Seeing as how RTR played it safe and boring, while the original Ravnica was quite original. The whole period from Mirrodin to Lorwyn was IMO the most creative in Magic's history.
@ChrisBP7
Maybe retcon isn't the right word, but a lot of the things got changed in RTR in order to play it safe and for marketing reasons. Also I don't think any card in original Ravnica suggested underground oceans (how does this even work)? Of course there were cards with water in them, water is in every MTG set (islands).
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
A little off-topic, but the original Ravnica was actually quite original in terms of exploring two-color identities. For examle G/W characters are usually the good guys in stories who care about the common people and nature at the same time. But in original Ravnica the Selesnyans were like a cult trying to brainwash people into joining their ranks and become a part of some sort of collective consciousness. This can be seen on cards like Glare of Subdual, Hour of Reckoning or Selesnya Evangel. And to this day, Ghazi-Glare remains the only G/W control deck I've ever heard of. They were of course changed in RTR to generic tree-loving good guys. Also I hate Emmara.
The Orzhov were also quite original in my opinion. I don't know of any B/W characters before Ravnica, but most of the B/W cards gave the vibe of doing something heavy for the greater good. See Gerrard's Verdict or Vindicate. But the Orzhov were like pure white on the outside, promising afterlife and preaching to the community about virtue. But inside, they were just pure black. Instead of giving the afterlife they promised they enslaved the souls who were foolish enough to trust them. So basically there was no greater good, just white masking the black.
Simic were also quite original. As far as I know that was the first time U/G got associated with stretching the laws of nature to a dangerous limit. The Simic were also one of the major bad guys in the story, even though U/G is usually a positive color combination.
Some combinations, like the Dimir, were pretty stereotypical though. But I don't think the problem is trying to stay too close to Ravnica, seeing as the original one was quite experimental. They actually retconned a lot of the guilds in RTR with Selesnya being the prime example. I think Wotc is just too obsessed with sticking to their definition of the color pie lately. The only two positive black characters we got since Toshiro were Yahenni and Sorin, both of which are vampires so they are automatically made black...
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
I hate what RTR did with the guilds for a number of reasons.
First off, the guilds shouldn't have just been reborn with virtually no explanation. Dissension ends with tge Guildpact didsolving and, in Agents of Artifice, there is a celebration of the end of the guilds on Ravnica. So how did the guilds all restore themselves after being gone for some time when the majority of the public were happy to see them gone? They hardly tell us anything.
Aldo, near-extinct species that originally were said to have select members as the last of their kind (Nicv-Mizzet and three hatchlings in the Guildpact novel for dragons, Szadek for psychic, non-Moroii Dimir vampires) were completely retconned and given new cards. Meanwhile, types of creatures that deserved more cards, such as Selesnyan Quietmen or Golgari Teratogens (supposedly including harpies, naga, and many other species along with gorgons, but we never see any of them).
The Azorius were already pretty cliché and stayed that way, albeit as protagonists this time.
The Dimir's new journalism/library management if not for the fact that being known to the public completely undermines the entire point of the guild. Lazav actively trying to destroy tge world "4 the evulz" was absolutely horrible and cringe-inducing. Szadek was so much better as a villain and they still could have used him (he is supposed to be still around as a spirit) but nope.
The Rakdos also stayed pretty cliché to the point of having the same Rakdos re-awakening storyline and having Lyzolda replaced by essentially a clone of herself, which is fine, I guess.
The Gruul did have more natural druids/mystics than last time but were still quite violent and brainless.
The Selesnyans went from some of the most unique, interesting, and terrifying villains in the game to be a bunch of goddamn tree huggers which is the exact same thing we see from GW every block. Original Selesnya was unique both as a villain and as a representation of GW, new Selesnya is the absolute opposite.
Orzhov stayed more or less the same. Their portrayal is actually fine with me.
We are still yet to see the Izzet's use of technology/artifice properly represented on cards. The thing that pisses me off is that in Guildpact (the novel), Niv-Mizzet sees into thoughts of everyone in the Izzet (and maybe others, too, I can't remember) unless they take very specific precautions and this is something that all Izzet mages are very aware of. Yet now Ral thinks that he can hide being a planeswalker from Niv-Mizzet. So either A) there's been a retcon to a central plot point of Guildpact or B) Ral is very stupid and Niv-Mizzet knows the truth but for some strange reason he is yet to do anything with that knowledge.
The Golgari got way too many creatures that were some combination of elf, plant, zombie, skeleton and fungus and not nearly enough of everything else. There are a number of other creatures within the guild that are unrepresented. The guild being more benevolent this time actually makes sense because Jarad is much less of an ******** than his predecessors. Jarad getting a card was a nice touch and one of the few ways in which RTR payed homage to the original block's story instead of defiling it.
The Boros lost their moral high ground but that's actually kind of interesting. It seems that the Selesnya and Boros switched places: the former are unique villains turned cliché protagonists while the latter are the opposite. Tgat being said, the new Boros were not used in the same way as the old Selesnya and the old Boros were a thousand times better than the new Selesnya.
The Simic are the one guild that actually deserved to be completely remodeled as they were completely destroyed at the end of the first block, while the other guilds all had at least some remnants to rebuild from. However, merfolk spontaneously appearing from oceans that "were there the whole time" is bull*****. It's not like Ravnica of all planes needed any more humanoid races, as it already has much more than most worlds. Plus this edged out spots of elves and completely supplanted the vedalken. It was completely unnecessary and unrealistic yet they did it anyway.
So all in all, RTR had a few redeeming qualities but for the most part it just butchered the original story of Ravnica and didn't even really have good reasons for doing so.
But at least I can sleep well knowing that next time they won't be able to screw up the guilds because all the attention will be on the Gatewatch stealing 90% of the focus from the world and characters around them. What great storytelling! No one is going to sick of that!
If you want to see all of that this way, fine, it's your opinion then. Since I've come to this forum you have been negative towards any direction the narrative has taken (at least I have yet to see any post of yours that was at least halfway positive). That's fine. But obviously your opinion is not the only one. I liked the changes and while I agree that the interrim between Dissension (which by the way DIDN'T end with the dissolution of the guilds) and RtR should have been explained more, real life has always shown that people really like to revolt against an oppressive system only for it to come back in another form later on. It isn't unrealistic that most of the guilds were just too ingrained into Ravnicas society to completely vanish (Izzet are the only ones who know how to handle the infrastructure, Golgari provide the food for the poor, Selesnya is a religious community and Gruul are a bunch of tribes, so the abandonment of these guilds makes no sense anyway etc.). They just lost power for a certain amount of time and regained that power later on. That there were oceans on Ravnica didn't even come out of nowhere, multiple cards in the original Ravnica block hinted at that possibility. We can agree to disagree on the merfolk part of the Simic, I think it's a good addition and Vedalken were mostly left out because of limited space for the guild in the sets it appeared in. The dragons are not the same species as Niv-Mizzet but most likely replicas he made himself (much less intelligent and by the way: also present in the original Ravnica). The vampires... ok, that's really a retcon. But Szadek was so secretive it isn't hard to imagine that he kept them a secret too (made easier by the fact that they can change memories). Oh and what kind of evil plan did he have?
"I want to rule Ravnica by destroying the guildpact". That's it. Really original. I felt that quite a few guilds were MUCH less stereotypical in RtR than they were in the original. But oh well, only my humble opinion.
And just to drive the point home further: I like the Gatewatch. I was sceptical around BFZ and OGT, but Innistrad and its resolution have won me over. I didn't even feel like the focus was on them for much of the time. Yahenni had much more to do with the story of Kaladesh and had more screentime than Gideon and Jace combined (Liliana perhabs too). The writing has gotten better. I look forward to seeing what they do with the characters. That's better than the years of nearly nothing furthering the plot and characters vanishing from the spotlight for decades.
His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
A little off-topic, but the original Ravnica was actually quite original in terms of exploring two-color identities. For examle G/W characters are usually the good guys in stories who care about the common people and nature at the same time. But in original Ravnica the Selesnyans were like a cult trying to brainwash people into joining their ranks and become a part of some sort of collective consciousness. This can be seen on cards like Glare of Subdual, Hour of Reckoning or Selesnya Evangel. And to this day, Ghazi-Glare remains the only G/W control deck I've ever heard of. They were of course changed in RTR to generic tree-loving good guys. Also I hate Emmara.
The Orzhov were also quite original in my opinion. I don't know of any B/W characters before Ravnica, but most of the B/W cards gave the vibe of doing something heavy for the greater good. See Gerrard's Verdict or Vindicate. But the Orzhov were like pure white on the outside, promising afterlife and preaching to the community about virtue. But inside, they were just pure black. Instead of giving the afterlife they promised they enslaved the souls who were foolish enough to trust them. So basically there was no greater good, just white masking the black.
Simic were also quite original. As far as I know that was the first time U/G got associated with stretching the laws of nature to a dangerous limit. The Simic were also one of the major bad guys in the story, even though U/G is usually a positive color combination.
Some combinations, like the Dimir, were pretty stereotypical though. But I don't think the problem is trying to stay too close to Ravnica, seeing as the original one was quite experimental. They actually retconned a lot of the guilds in RTR with Selesnya being the prime example. I think Wotc is just too obsessed with sticking to their definition of the color pie lately. The only two positive black characters we got since Toshiro were Yahenni and Sorin, both of which are vampires so they are automatically made black...
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
Cool new art. I like the aesthetic of the five gods (I kinda hope that their "plating" isn't purely gold but electrum. Would be great flavor ion my opinion). I also believe them to be either mono- or shardcolored (hoping for the latter to distinguish them from the Theros pantheon). And Gideon shows just a tiny bit of skin under his new armor, which I find great (though I would have favored him being topless :D). It seems that Liliana is living the high life again. All of the full-art lands show these giant Bolas horns, those things must be gigantic (I guess appropiate for an ego like his). I'm officially hyped for this set!
A friend of mine had an awesome theory about Amonketh which is, due to poor story writing, probably too good to ever be true.
Nicol Bolas had freed the Eldrazi.
Nicol Bolas wanted a planar bridge.
Nicol Bolas had created Amonketh.
Ok, here is the theory:
Artificial planes aren't too stable and because Nicol Bolas had lost a good portion of his power due to the Mending we can assume that whatever power he had to hold Amonketh together is probably slowly fading away and the plane is eventually going to fall apart. Although he is a tyrant, Nicol Bolas still has at least a bit of care for the plane that he had created and his subjects who worship him. Enough care to find them a new home? He chose Zendikar as their new home but first he had to get rid of the eldrazi on the plane so he had forced Ugin to tell him how to break their prison. The goal was to release the titans so that they can go somewhere else. After that he had needed a planar bridge but he didn't know how to make one. He had sent Tezzeret to phyrexia because he knew that the ancient phyrexians had a planar portal and he had hoped that these new phyrexians have one or at least know how to make one but it turned out that they had no idea on either. Then he sent Tezzeret to Kaladesh where Tezzeret had discovered someone who can make a planar bridge but the bridge was destroyed. Luckily, Tezzeret had escaped with the knowledge on how to make such a device and now he and Bolas are constructing one because Bolas needs a way to transport his people to Zendikar. Unfortunately, the Gatewatch appears and they destroy the newest planar bridge because they think that it will be used for something evil. The entire plane is doomed because of their rash actions and Bolase hopefully kills Chandra before dealing with Gideon. The end.
Well, your mileage may vary on whether this would count as better storytelling. First: Why would he choose Zendikar, a notoriously dangerous world where he has no gods with which to control the masses and which already has quite the population? And what should it help releasing the Eldrazi? Had they not been destroyed, Ulamog and Kozilek would have made most if not all of Zendikar uninhabitable. This doesn't make this world particularly colonizable. His fight with Ugin also was premending, at a time in which he still had his godlike powers and therefore no need for evacuation of the Amonkhetu. The planar bridge explicitely can't transport organic matter (at least the prototype couldn't without killing it and as far as I know Tezzeret wanted to send artifact creatures through to compensate for that weakness). Chandra as the second most popular planeswalker certainly won't die (especially considering what happened at the end of Aether Revolt). And I really hope they don't kill of Gideon just for the sake of killing someone off. The only thing I would like to see (and which will happen almost certainly) is that Bolas defeats the Gatewatch devastatingly (I mean the second set isn't called "Hour of Devastation" for nothing I think). Hubris has to be dealt with in stories about it, and the Gatewatches hubris is pretty extreme at this point.
They will probably deal with Lilianas demon first though.
Edit: Nevermind, Morays are eels. Should have researched better But since animals in Kaladesh often had the energy mechanic it stands to reason that they wanted to use the Curio Vendor space to show of the inventor theme more while creating a Moray card that actually has energy as a mechanic. Just my guess.
I am also slightly worried that Maro seemed so elusive to such a non-spoilery question, but I remain confident that this is much more of an egypt world than Kaladesh was an indian world. I never understood how people got the idea that Kaladesh would be anything more than an artifact/inventor world with an indian aesthetic, it was clear from Origins onward that this wouldn't be the case in my opinion.
The fact that the sets focus is on the gods (including Nicol Bolas) and the challenges the Amonkhetu have to go through to be deemed worthy for the (maybe fake) afterlife instead of things that have nothing to do with egypt makes me hopeful that this will be at least an Innistrad-level top-down set. Perhabs even similar to Theros, but I will be happy either way.
I'm pretty sure the focus planeswalkers of this block will be Gideon and Liliana (as well as Nicol Bolas of course). For all those who don't like the Gatewatch, just remember that this will most definitely end in their defeat (I wouldn't get my hopes up that one of them dies though, something I don't really want to happen anyway) and that the next block might feature Ajani exclusively (similar to Jace in SOI).
I'm pretty hyped for this block, ever since Theros I've been waiting for an egyptian based world^^
Not the whole "The Gatewatch being beaten by Bolas is ridiculous because of ther victory over the Eldrazi which no one was capable of before."-crap again. I don't like their hubris either (they definitely DIDN'T defeat three Titans, what are you talking about Chandra?), but their "victories" over the Eldrazi weren't really victories at all (which makes it strange that they see it that way): Without Ugins, Nahiris and Sorins preparations, the strange way mana works on Zendikar, the hedron network and the information Ugin gave to Jace they would never have been able to kill Kozilek and Ulamog. They had extreme luck. Whether that's bad storytelling in itself is another matter, but it didn't come out of nowhere. The same goes for Gideon beating back one tentacle of Ulamog (he is indestructible and a planeswalker, which grants a certain immunity from the Eldrazi titans destructive influence). I don't defend this as "good storytelling" but I have the feeling that people really need to get over this. The gatewatch failed miserably against Emrakul which had to imprison itself and didn't even find out that Nahiri was responsible. Characters having plot armor isn't necessarily a bad thing. Quite a few of my favorite series dealing with horror or crime didn't kill of any of their main cast and I liked that. Death is often just the ultimate cheap writing tool to force characterization if no one can think of another way to do that in my opinion.
Now in regards to Amonkhet I don't really agree with the Gatewatches reasoning either, but I understand it. In their minds they defeated quite a few powerful foes already, why not another right now. Their hubris is showing and it is clear that Bolas will defeat them. I don't think anyone will die and I hope that that won't happen either, I want to see how they deal with that loss and how that furthers their respecive characters.
In regards to the story today, I loved it (apart from the Gatewatches reasoning). Yahennis death and Nissas last gift to them was very powerful in my opinion. Aside from the weak climax last week I really liked Kaladesh, it set up quite a few things and left not many dangling plot threads on the plane itself.
With how the story unfolds, I am very afraid that the artbook is again quite innacurate.
Baral is locked up as of the end of latest story. Jace uses his Illusionist's Stratagem, but not during the rebel attack on the Death Star Aether Spire, but now. And Baral is not the one who dispels it.
I might be wrong here but what was so inaccurate with the Innistrad artbook? The same events took place but those from the story articles were naturally more detailed. I didn't get a chance to read it myself but I did get to read the Zendikar artbook and that one was spot on.
The Innistrad Art Book doesn't mention anything about Emrakul sealing herself in the moon.
In general, the art book summaries are only roughly accurate, but tend to miss a lot of details or get some flat-out wrong.
I am actually glad that they are not fully accurate. The artbooks give us what we crave (spoilers) while keeping the suspense of finding out whether thise are really true and I don't know about you, I personally like it
I'm pretty sure it was stated that there are not infinite worlds in the multiverse, that while the Blind Eternities are infinite, their contents (the planes) are not. Didn't Ugin say that? I can't really remember...
Level up wasn't very well received according to wizards and how would it fit an egyptian flavor? I hope (and believe) that Amonkhet will be Top-Down like Theros and Innistrad were. .
So with all of these master pieces around can we finally call out the "collectors" on their bs? How hard can we rub in how full of crap the collectors in the forums have always been. Talking about how rarity is what makes the cards valuable. Magic has not been a collectible card game in over a decade. They print the cards on the same level baseball cards are printed. The reason the cards retain value is because they are playable not because they are rare. These master piece cards aren't going to be sought out by that many people. My biggest magic playing friend is officially out of standard. Battle for Zendikar expeditions destroyed that game for him. He was already buying 18 booster boxes when a set came out so that we could get all of the cards that he wanted. He was on the card board crack diet of opening packs for fun. Now with expeditions around he's done. He buys no more booster boxes and has basically quit magic outside of very casual play. I think the tilt of the player base has gone in favor of purely treating magic like a game and it's heavily reflected in purchases. Or lack of purchases. Wizards needs to smarten up and realize that adding more lottery effects to their game isn't a good thing long term. They have only been re-hashing the same game formula for years. It has gotten worse though. Planeswalkers were a very bad idea. I'd like to have planewalkers eliminated as card types. They could still appear on card art and in the story line but the power imbalance is out of control. Then there is that lack of non creature spells to win you the game. Long gone are the days of killing someone with megrim, the rack, blackvise and other non creature cards. Creatures are also way too big and over powered. You can have a good standard format without super powered low cost creatures. Wind drake for the kill! I think masterpiece cards in every set are a last ditch effort to prop up the game. Then when the game goes under all of those collectors will be sitting with piles of worthless cardboard.
Wow, that's a lot of hate. You forgot to pound on Mythic Rarity and the Reserved List, otherwise I would have completed my mtgsalvation bingo by now. And you veered off target quite soon so I will not get into detail into the things not having to do with the topic at hand. Masterpieces are only for collectors. You can get the non-bling version of them as easy as any other rare card, they change nothing. Buying 18 booster boxes to get all the cards in a set is a horribly ineffective way to do so. You know that you can buy cards for a much smaller price via the internet? Whole set displays even! I don't want to calculate it right now, but I'm pretty sure you could buy a display AND most of the masterpieces (except for maybe the most costly) for the money you spend on the boxes. If you don't like the lottery effect that's fine, don't buy boosters and save the money to buy single cards. As far as I know Magic is going pretty strong right now, with RTR, Theros, Khans and BFZ each breaking each others record of sales (even though both Theros and BFZ had low power). So while Masterpieces are certainly a marketing ploy it's not affecting you if you don't let it and it's certainly not a sign of Magic "going under". Also remember this: The one time Magic WAS close to being destroyed it was because of Combo Winter of which broken noncreature spells were a huge part of.
There are certain mechanics that are most prominent in a color pair, like lifegain/loss in WB to give a mechanical identity, which therefore have more cards made using them. That doesn't mean that they are the only mechanics used at all. WB has branched out to mass and targeted destruction and exiling of permanents, letting opponents discard, reanimation of permanents etc. There might be more legends using the life aspect because that is the main identity, but there are more than enough alternatives available. The color pie really isn't the problem... now I don't really agree with the Gatewatch being "generic" per se either, but that's another point.
Again, I have to ask, what about the change made Ravnica more marketable? Why (if it is true) is that so horrible? And what would have been the alternative? Since Dissension ended with a new guildpact and multiple guilds in ruins there had to be some change. Since the guilds themselves are what makes Ravnica Ravnica, they couldn't have kept them disbanded (actually I blame Agents of Artifice for even introducing such a short-sighted plot point). The changes are also for the most part logical, some a bit out of left-field. But I really don't see the "marketability" coming into play.
I'm pretty sure it is the latter. Aside from the most superficial similarities these sets have nothing to do with each other. Innistrad has nothing to do with The Dark (if anything it reminds me somewhat of Ulgrotha, but that's neither here nor there). Kamigawa is a japanese inspired plane, which has nothing to do with Tarkir, which is inspired by several continental asian cultures (Temur -> Siberia, Mardu -> Mongolia etc.). Kaladesh is a aetherpunk world with indian "texture", it has about as much to do with Antiques as with Mirrodin (namely all of them have an artifact focus). And suggesting that Amonkhet is a carbon copy of Arabian Nights is laughable, those aren't even similar source materials.
The sad thing is, they tried to do that once with a world, putting flavor before the mechanics in every way... the result was Kamigawa, which is disliked by a vast majority of players (I personally loved the flavor, but hated the mechanics and most of the cards). Also as has been stated previously you have to balance things out if you want to have a long-living game. If it becomes too complex, the entry level is too steep and the number of new players dwindles (something Magic already has a problem with). If it becomes too simple older players leave the game. If the lore dictates the mechanics fully without balancing we get stuff like Kamigawa and when mechanics do the same we get Mirrodin or worse, Urzas Saga (which was really close to killing Magic as a whole).
Since I'm a biologist, that was the only thing that bugged me about the merfolk on Ravnica as well. My solution: They are bioengineers and obviously prepared for their "uprising" to the surface. Most likely they studied Ravnica via the Undercity for quite some time, figured what they needed to be able to return to the surface and returned their eye sight via magical genetic engineering. Alternate theory: The ocean of Ravnica is full of bioluminiscent lifeforms, so that the merfolk didn't lose their eye-sight entirely (they could have made themselves organic or magic light sources too). Interestingly they at least seem to be pretty pale in relation to merfolk of other planes.
In regards to their reason for getting back to the surface: They have a philosophy about the Holdfast (the isolationist movement) and the Upwelling (the expanding one). For the last millenia they obviously put more emphasis on the Holdfast, therefore isolating themselves to their oceans, probably spying on the rest of Ravnica. When the time seemed right for the Upwelling they opened the sinkholes and took over the Combine.
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
If you want to see all of that this way, fine, it's your opinion then. Since I've come to this forum you have been negative towards any direction the narrative has taken (at least I have yet to see any post of yours that was at least halfway positive). That's fine. But obviously your opinion is not the only one. I liked the changes and while I agree that the interrim between Dissension (which by the way DIDN'T end with the dissolution of the guilds) and RtR should have been explained more, real life has always shown that people really like to revolt against an oppressive system only for it to come back in another form later on. It isn't unrealistic that most of the guilds were just too ingrained into Ravnicas society to completely vanish (Izzet are the only ones who know how to handle the infrastructure, Golgari provide the food for the poor, Selesnya is a religious community and Gruul are a bunch of tribes, so the abandonment of these guilds makes no sense anyway etc.). They just lost power for a certain amount of time and regained that power later on. That there were oceans on Ravnica didn't even come out of nowhere, multiple cards in the original Ravnica block hinted at that possibility. We can agree to disagree on the merfolk part of the Simic, I think it's a good addition and Vedalken were mostly left out because of limited space for the guild in the sets it appeared in. The dragons are not the same species as Niv-Mizzet but most likely replicas he made himself (much less intelligent and by the way: also present in the original Ravnica). The vampires... ok, that's really a retcon. But Szadek was so secretive it isn't hard to imagine that he kept them a secret too (made easier by the fact that they can change memories). Oh and what kind of evil plan did he have?
"I want to rule Ravnica by destroying the guildpact". That's it. Really original. I felt that quite a few guilds were MUCH less stereotypical in RtR than they were in the original. But oh well, only my humble opinion.
And just to drive the point home further: I like the Gatewatch. I was sceptical around BFZ and OGT, but Innistrad and its resolution have won me over. I didn't even feel like the focus was on them for much of the time. Yahenni had much more to do with the story of Kaladesh and had more screentime than Gideon and Jace combined (Liliana perhabs too). The writing has gotten better. I look forward to seeing what they do with the characters. That's better than the years of nearly nothing furthering the plot and characters vanishing from the spotlight for decades.
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
Well, your mileage may vary on whether this would count as better storytelling. First: Why would he choose Zendikar, a notoriously dangerous world where he has no gods with which to control the masses and which already has quite the population? And what should it help releasing the Eldrazi? Had they not been destroyed, Ulamog and Kozilek would have made most if not all of Zendikar uninhabitable. This doesn't make this world particularly colonizable. His fight with Ugin also was premending, at a time in which he still had his godlike powers and therefore no need for evacuation of the Amonkhetu. The planar bridge explicitely can't transport organic matter (at least the prototype couldn't without killing it and as far as I know Tezzeret wanted to send artifact creatures through to compensate for that weakness). Chandra as the second most popular planeswalker certainly won't die (especially considering what happened at the end of Aether Revolt). And I really hope they don't kill of Gideon just for the sake of killing someone off. The only thing I would like to see (and which will happen almost certainly) is that Bolas defeats the Gatewatch devastatingly (I mean the second set isn't called "Hour of Devastation" for nothing I think). Hubris has to be dealt with in stories about it, and the Gatewatches hubris is pretty extreme at this point.
They will probably deal with Lilianas demon first though.
Edit: Nevermind, Morays are eels. Should have researched better
The fact that the sets focus is on the gods (including Nicol Bolas) and the challenges the Amonkhetu have to go through to be deemed worthy for the (maybe fake) afterlife instead of things that have nothing to do with egypt makes me hopeful that this will be at least an Innistrad-level top-down set. Perhabs even similar to Theros, but I will be happy either way.
I'm pretty sure the focus planeswalkers of this block will be Gideon and Liliana (as well as Nicol Bolas of course). For all those who don't like the Gatewatch, just remember that this will most definitely end in their defeat (I wouldn't get my hopes up that one of them dies though, something I don't really want to happen anyway) and that the next block might feature Ajani exclusively (similar to Jace in SOI).
I'm pretty hyped for this block, ever since Theros I've been waiting for an egyptian based world^^
Now in regards to Amonkhet I don't really agree with the Gatewatches reasoning either, but I understand it. In their minds they defeated quite a few powerful foes already, why not another right now. Their hubris is showing and it is clear that Bolas will defeat them. I don't think anyone will die and I hope that that won't happen either, I want to see how they deal with that loss and how that furthers their respecive characters.
In regards to the story today, I loved it (apart from the Gatewatches reasoning). Yahennis death and Nissas last gift to them was very powerful in my opinion. Aside from the weak climax last week I really liked Kaladesh, it set up quite a few things and left not many dangling plot threads on the plane itself.
I am actually glad that they are not fully accurate. The artbooks give us what we crave (spoilers) while keeping the suspense of finding out whether thise are really true and I don't know about you, I personally like it
I'm pretty sure it was stated that there are not infinite worlds in the multiverse, that while the Blind Eternities are infinite, their contents (the planes) are not. Didn't Ugin say that? I can't really remember...
Wow, that's a lot of hate. You forgot to pound on Mythic Rarity and the Reserved List, otherwise I would have completed my mtgsalvation bingo by now. And you veered off target quite soon so I will not get into detail into the things not having to do with the topic at hand. Masterpieces are only for collectors. You can get the non-bling version of them as easy as any other rare card, they change nothing. Buying 18 booster boxes to get all the cards in a set is a horribly ineffective way to do so. You know that you can buy cards for a much smaller price via the internet? Whole set displays even! I don't want to calculate it right now, but I'm pretty sure you could buy a display AND most of the masterpieces (except for maybe the most costly) for the money you spend on the boxes. If you don't like the lottery effect that's fine, don't buy boosters and save the money to buy single cards. As far as I know Magic is going pretty strong right now, with RTR, Theros, Khans and BFZ each breaking each others record of sales (even though both Theros and BFZ had low power). So while Masterpieces are certainly a marketing ploy it's not affecting you if you don't let it and it's certainly not a sign of Magic "going under". Also remember this: The one time Magic WAS close to being destroyed it was because of Combo Winter of which broken noncreature spells were a huge part of.