With the banning of gush this deck is no longer remotely viable. It was a fun ride while it lasted. At least it died as a 5-0 deck hehe. Thanks for all who have participated in the deck over the years. It has been a fun ride, but I don't see this deck recovering from a gush banning. I'll catch you all later on some new pauper decks. RIP VineStorm.
This new card Burning Prophet could be very good for the deck. The scry effect is obviously very powerful, and it provides a primary or backup win con that is fast and demands an answer. Running this with gigadrowse to tap down blockers could be an interesting line of attack. Will be curious to see how it ends up playing out.
That card looks really interesting. I'm also interested to try out spellgorger weird.
Current list. Goldfishing extremely well. To play this version, think of it as a gush and inner fire combo deck, not as a tolarian and vines deck. In my hundreds (thousands?) of hours goldfishing this deck, this version is by far the best.
It seems fine for the most part. I do agree that this is more of a gush / inner fire deck than anything. Part of me even feels like this deck is more closely related to high tide than storm because of that. The only thing I might consider is -1 sphere + 1 giga.
Is there any particular reason for the snow-covered lands over regular basics?
jlhansen
The only reason is to bluff UR delver, which is a deck I frequently play online. Past that, they don't serve a ton of benefits, and are not needed for the deck to function. If you like the art or think they are cool for style points, feel free to use them. Otherwise, basic lands with the art of your choice will work just fine.
I'm just wondering if this deck really has a chance at an organized pauper event. I really love the deck and in limited testing it has performed quite well and consistently, does anyone have any experience with it as a successful pseudo-competitive deck?
thanks in advance
Pyro
Hi Pyro. I have played this deck on and off for about 3 years now. In terms of it being competitive, I would say it is on the lower / medium side of things. If all you care about is winning in pauper, I would suggest trying tron, delver, or boros variants in pauper. If you really like storm / high tide / spell based combo decks, than this is the archetype for you in pauper. The current list I have is shown here:
In terms of my own success, I have been able to 3-2 and 4-1 multiple times in friendly pauper leagues with the deck. I have yet to 5-0 sadly. With the recent addition of competitive leagues, I have currently entered one and am 3-0. With the recent addition of Foil into the format, the deck may have to be adjusted to deal with that in the main board. Past that, I think the deck is in reasonable shape overall.
Raptor, what do you think about Dark bargain could be good to have one copy in the deck?
I don't think it's needed in the grixis shell, but I could see trying it in a UB shell possibly. It's an interesting card for sure. I do wonder if it's better than forbidden alchemy, but it's a cool card nonetheless.
I don't think the excludes should be there, they could probably be something else. However, I have liked that they can randomly blow people out, though maybe they could be more cantrips or something else. I've liked cutting rite of flame and lotus petal for more lands and augurs. I think having more staying power was something the deck needed.
That's a fair point. I think the best way I can answer that is that this deck has existed before pulse tron shells became a thing. I wanted to write a primer about it this deck since I have been on it for about 3 ish years, and I wanted to discuss the archetype since there was not much light on it. One thing to note is that this deck has some angles of attack that tron does not have, and I think you can build it for a variety of applications. I feel like that argument of "why play x when y is better" can be applied to a variety of decks.
"Why play RDW when stompy is a better aggro deck?"
"Why play MBC when boros is a better midrange deck"
etc.
With that said, I do think tron in general has surpassed teachings as an archetype. Not just this specific style, but all of them. It has a monopoly on the late game, and I would argue that there is not deck that has a better late game than tron. Tron has been the premiere teachings deck since MM3, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I've been on record for saying this as shown here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pauper/comments/6avacm/how_well_positioned_is_mono_black_control/
Bottom line is if you want to spike / win, just play Delver / Tron. I think those are the best two decks in the format. If you want to have fun or try something new, this deck is an option.
Sorry for my rather blunt comment. You did a great job with the primer of the deck! Would like to see this quality of primer also for other (more competitive;-)) decks.
That's a fair point. I think the best way I can answer that is that this deck has existed before pulse tron shells became a thing. I wanted to write a primer about it this deck since I have been on it for about 3 ish years, and I wanted to discuss the archetype since there was not much light on it. One thing to note is that this deck has some angles of attack that tron does not have, and I think you can build it for a variety of applications. I feel like that argument of "why play x when y is better" can be applied to a variety of decks.
"Why play RDW when stompy is a better aggro deck?"
"Why play MBC when boros is a better midrange deck"
etc.
With that said, I do think tron in general has surpassed teachings as an archetype. Not just this specific style, but all of them. It has a monopoly on the late game, and I would argue that there is not deck that has a better late game than tron. Tron has been the premiere teachings deck since MM3, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I've been on record for saying this as shown here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pauper/comments/6avacm/how_well_positioned_is_mono_black_control/
Bottom line is if you want to spike / win, just play Delver / Tron. I think those are the best two decks in the format. If you want to have fun or try something new, this deck is an option.
Cut some of the slower tap lands and black sources for islands. I'm not sure if the mana is 100% correct, but it does feel much faster and less clunky.
As an old TES player (Slithermuse days), this deck intrigues me.
Having read through the thread, here's a question - is there value to using 4 Fathom Seer as Gushes 5-8? Would this increase the T4 consistency at all? I realize that it does allow for the opponent to have their creature removal 'turned on' so to speak, but that might be negated by having 8 Gushes in the deck to go off on turn 4 more consistently. Thoughts on this?
It is an option. I think this deck needs a couple of things to occur before it can become a serious contender. One of them is that merchant scroll needs to be introduced to the format. You talked about this deck wanting gush 5-8 and I think scroll can do this. That card does so many things for this deck. It gets Gush, but also get winds / brainstorm / gigadrowse / accumulated knowledge. Not to mention it is a shuffle effect for BS. I think this might be the best solution to what you are suggesting.
In terms of fathom seer, I have not tried that. It is an interesting card though. 3 mana for a gush effect is not terrible. I'm not sure what to cut for it, but it is worth experimenting. This deck has not fully been explored, so feel free to try it out.
I think it is interesting. I'm not sure if it is fast enough in the current meta, which can be an issue at times. Try testing it and let me know how the games played out.
That card looks really interesting. I'm also interested to try out spellgorger weird.
It seems fine for the most part. I do agree that this is more of a gush / inner fire deck than anything. Part of me even feels like this deck is more closely related to high tide than storm because of that. The only thing I might consider is -1 sphere + 1 giga.
The only reason is to bluff UR delver, which is a deck I frequently play online. Past that, they don't serve a ton of benefits, and are not needed for the deck to function. If you like the art or think they are cool for style points, feel free to use them. Otherwise, basic lands with the art of your choice will work just fine.
Hi Pyro. I have played this deck on and off for about 3 years now. In terms of it being competitive, I would say it is on the lower / medium side of things. If all you care about is winning in pauper, I would suggest trying tron, delver, or boros variants in pauper. If you really like storm / high tide / spell based combo decks, than this is the archetype for you in pauper. The current list I have is shown here:
11 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Ash Barrens
Card Selection / Draw [20]
3 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Augur of Bolas
4 Gush
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
3 Lotus Petal
Combo pieces [8]
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Conjurer's Bauble
Protection [3]
3 Gigadrowse
3 Hydroblast
2 Dispel
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Augur of Bolas
1 Flaring Pain
2 Electrickery
1 Deep Analysis
3 Gut Shot
In terms of my own success, I have been able to 3-2 and 4-1 multiple times in friendly pauper leagues with the deck. I have yet to 5-0 sadly. With the recent addition of competitive leagues, I have currently entered one and am 3-0. With the recent addition of Foil into the format, the deck may have to be adjusted to deal with that in the main board. Past that, I think the deck is in reasonable shape overall.
11 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Ash Barrens
Card Advantage [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Gush
3 Preordain
2 Augur of Bolas
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
Combo [11]
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
3 Gigadrowse
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Dispel
2 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
1 Flaring Pain
2 Curfew
2 Augur of Bolas
1 Izzet Boilerworks
I like the probes a lot in the main. They give you free info and let you steal games sometimes.
I don't think it's needed in the grixis shell, but I could see trying it in a UB shell possibly. It's an interesting card for sure. I do wonder if it's better than forbidden alchemy, but it's a cool card nonetheless.
12 Snow-Covered Island
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Izzet Boilerworks
2 Ash Barrens
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
Card Advantage [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Gush
3 Preordain
3 Augur of Bolas
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
Combo [11]
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
3 Gigadrowse
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Conjurer's Bauble
2 Dispel
2 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 swirling Sandstorm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
2 Skred
1 Flaring Pain
1 Curfew
Feels a bit better. I think cutting rite of flame for more card selection might be correct. Rite may have been a win more.
12 Snow-Covered Island
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Izzet Boilerworks
2 Ash Barrens
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
Spells[34]
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
4 Gush
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
2 Exclude
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Gigadrowse
1 Rolling Thunder
4 Augur of Bolas
Artifacts [1]
1 Conjurer's Bauble
2 Dispel
2 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 swirling Sandstorm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
2 Flame Slash
1 Flaring Pain
1 Curfew
I don't think the excludes should be there, they could probably be something else. However, I have liked that they can randomly blow people out, though maybe they could be more cantrips or something else. I've liked cutting rite of flame and lotus petal for more lands and augurs. I think having more staying power was something the deck needed.
Non taken. It was a valid question.
That's a fair point. I think the best way I can answer that is that this deck has existed before pulse tron shells became a thing. I wanted to write a primer about it this deck since I have been on it for about 3 ish years, and I wanted to discuss the archetype since there was not much light on it. One thing to note is that this deck has some angles of attack that tron does not have, and I think you can build it for a variety of applications. I feel like that argument of "why play x when y is better" can be applied to a variety of decks.
"Why play RDW when stompy is a better aggro deck?"
"Why play MBC when boros is a better midrange deck"
etc.
With that said, I do think tron in general has surpassed teachings as an archetype. Not just this specific style, but all of them. It has a monopoly on the late game, and I would argue that there is not deck that has a better late game than tron. Tron has been the premiere teachings deck since MM3, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I've been on record for saying this as shown here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pauper/comments/6avacm/how_well_positioned_is_mono_black_control/
Bottom line is if you want to spike / win, just play Delver / Tron. I think those are the best two decks in the format. If you want to have fun or try something new, this deck is an option.
4 Mulldrifter
2 Archaeomancer
2 Augur of Bolas
Instants [22]
3 Terminate
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Comparative Analysis
1 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Counterspell
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Grim Harvest
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Devour Flesh
1 Electrickery
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Exclude
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Izzet Guildgate
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
7 Snow-Covered Island
2 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dismal Backwater
4 Ash Barrens
Sorcery [7]
3 Flame Slash
4 Preordain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Luxa River Shrine
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Capsize
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Firebolt
2 Chainer's Edict
Cut some of the slower tap lands and black sources for islands. I'm not sure if the mana is 100% correct, but it does feel much faster and less clunky.
It is an option. I think this deck needs a couple of things to occur before it can become a serious contender. One of them is that merchant scroll needs to be introduced to the format. You talked about this deck wanting gush 5-8 and I think scroll can do this. That card does so many things for this deck. It gets Gush, but also get winds / brainstorm / gigadrowse / accumulated knowledge. Not to mention it is a shuffle effect for BS. I think this might be the best solution to what you are suggesting.
In terms of fathom seer, I have not tried that. It is an interesting card though. 3 mana for a gush effect is not terrible. I'm not sure what to cut for it, but it is worth experimenting. This deck has not fully been explored, so feel free to try it out.
4 Mulldrifter
2 Archaeomancer
2 Augur of Bolas
1 Thorn of the Black Rose
Instants [20]
3 Terminate
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Counterspell
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Grim Harvest
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Devour Flesh
1 Electrickery
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Exclude
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Izzet Guildgate
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
5 Snow-Covered Island
2 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dismal Backwater
4 Ash Barrens
Sorcery [8]
3 Flame Slash
4 Preordain
1 Deep Analysis
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Luxa River Shrine
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Capsize
2 Evincar's Justice
2 Chainer's Edict
I think it is interesting. I'm not sure if it is fast enough in the current meta, which can be an issue at times. Try testing it and let me know how the games played out.