I don't think the hex parasite/mage whatever your poison was needs a place in the main deck anymore. Jace was a big enabler. Without Jace and SFM, caw is dead, so who's going to run Gideon? Not that it can't happen, but until it does I would keep the hex in the side.
I imagine less people are going to be running tumble magnet now that caw's gone, so don't need the hex for that anymore either.
Barring other shifts, which are probably likely but we can't plan against the unknown very well, I think hexmage stays in the side for decks running Koth and/or Karn. Although I'd like to think our Valakut disruption package comes in against eldrazi green and takes care of Karn as well.
Yeah... in a post-Jace and Cawblade environment (no more Hawk/Mystic, YAY), Parasite doesn't seem to be as necessary. The worst that you will encounter is Gideon, and Parasite does not do too great against him; in fact, a big Planeswalker is the only reason why someone would pick Hexmage over Parasite--in every other case, Parasite's re-usability make it superior.
They'll reprint GT. Card number 98. Right before Gravedigger. Doesn't make complete sense alphabetically but that is how they have them listed for M11: GT then GD.
Same as noted above. You should learn how to play on removal and jace... Spells kite is 1 answer, there will always have a threat but we have preemptive strike which is discard.
Sadly, when this time comes, we will have to swap out our own Titans for Precursor Golem (hopefully, no Lightning Bolt reprint) or Wurmcoil Engine; the former has better synergy with Mimic Vat, the latter with Lashwrithe. Unless they reprint it (fat chance; they made their money).
Dismember actually isn't bad in MBC, though I wouldn't run more than 2. Great against control. You can leave your tec edge untapped, and your opponent will almost always never expect a kill spell.
Right now, it's pretty worthless, as Titans are still in use.
In the future though, who knows? It definitely has the speed advantage.
@sacredsky
I would recommend 4 Inquisition and 3 Duress. It's really hard for them to play a Sword without drawing it off the top of the deck if you have two of either in your hand. Even one makes a Mystic drop unlikely. Slow the combo down enough, and it poses far less of a problem.
...but later on, with some testing, i found out that the orb itself damages us more than it does to the opponent, just beggining that we do not have enough CA as caw has, and on top of that, cancelling ourselves some of our already not that competent CA just to cause minor damage on the game plan of the opponent isnt a smart thing in my point of view, so... i just rollbacked to my last "competent" version of mbc, with Ob Nixilis in place of percy, which in most cases has proven to be more useful, since u dont need to attack in order to cause dmg to opponents, and my usual version of CA with grim discovery, fetchs, titans, ragers, mimic vat and discard package in form of duress and inquisitions..
The SB plan I would use involves swapping out my Exarch and Titan for Torpor Orb and some 2 or 3-of. I've had experience playing this type of deck; I ran Damping Matrix Control during the Ravfinity days.
In regards to Nantuko Shade: After testing Deep black, a deck in which this card is a key component of, I've found that he is a great card if you want to take the aggro route. I wouldn't advise people playing a more control-y version of MBC to play him, though. The reason is that you often want to leave your mana open for reactive spells.
Another (maybe trivial) thing about him is that if you swing with him, opting not to tap out to pump him and leave mana open for something like GFTT, I think any good player can see this as a dead giveaway of what you've got in your hand.
Deep Black is just slang for MBA, right? (I really do no hope it catches on.)
Shade was great when it was only Doom Blade. UB Control couldn't handle him.
torpor orb is only good if you get it in the first three turns. We have had this discussion..what is the chance of you getting it in the first three turns, buddy?
The same as them drawing their 3-of. Honestly, by your argument, we ought not play any card that is great early on but not later on account of us not drawing it early.
And I read the discussion. I agreed with it at first, but now I am revising my thinking. The synergies are abusive against some decks.
I just think Massacre Wurm is cool and wanted to test him out. I haven't drawn any conclusions yet.
No on Torpor Orb. For that to work we have to be on the play and resolve it turn 2 otherwise we deal with the very high probability of a turn 2 Mystic via t1 Preordain. I mean, yeah, in some situations it might be useful if you DON'T get the turn 2 drop, but Caw-blade uses MD artifact removal. Torpor Orb just isn't as effective of a threat as we need in a card against more threats than just Caw-blade. Our core is supposed to be able to deal with Caw and we shouldn't have to waste round one just adapting for the deck we're going to play against the most.
Where did your reading comprehension go? Did I not say "Inquisition/Duress plus Torpor Orb?" And did I say that it was only good against Cawblade? I mean, didn't my previous post suggest that the SB slot that Orb would be replacing Sadistic Sacrament? -_-
The idea of SBing is to improve your matchup by taking out irrelevant cards and putting in relevant cards. Increasing the flexibility of your sideboard is very important. And Torpor Orb is a silver bullet for many more decks than Sacraments or Memoricide (right now, anyway). It will win you the game outright against most forms of RUG, and it cripples Cawblade and Valakut if played early.
In both pre- and post-SB, your turn one is Inquisition/Duress to scout their hand and remove a combo piece or two.
In post-SB:
-With Orb in your opening hand, you know what to take more clearly. Let us assume you are playing Cawblade. Orb shuts down both Hawk and Mystic, so you can go for removal, CA, or maybe a Planeswalker.
-Without Orb in your opening hand, you are in the same pre-SB situation.
Massacre, bomb, consume the meek, usually for aggro stuff, lot of 1 and 2 drops. Tumble magnet usually against valakut and caw because of protection and it kind of shuts down valakut land fetch and inferno titan 3 damage. Memoricide also for valakut and control stuff. Hexmage for architect or heavy planeswalker stuff. Any help would b good.
So this is really off topic, but those sigs that say "My color is ____" like the first poster on this page, where do you get those?
I fail to see a situation where you would need to SB in Massacre Wurm... maybe Soul Sisters, but even that's a stretch. Likewise, Consume the Meek is way too slow. Black Sun's Zenith, Marsh Casualties, and Ratchet Bomb ought to be your considerations for board wipe.
I have been theorycrafting with Torpor Orb, and it seems REALLY solid. Kudos to whoever recommended it. Before I thought about it, the card seemed gimmicky to me. Inquisition/Duress plus Torpor Orb makes for a really strong opening against Valakut, Cawblade, and RUG (I laugh at Acidic Slime), which are the DTB these days. Also, it shuts down Soul Sisters... why people talk about that deck, I cannot understand.
alright just got back from a tournament and i just want to share a really cool idea with you guys. i played two torpor orbs in my sb tonight and it ended up dominating. I tore down rug exarch with ease, he would flash in his exarch and i would just look at him and go "cool, now get rid of my artifact". Not to mention that the orb is amazing against almost any combo deck (any splinter twin exarch, soul sisters, just to mention a few) I think that torpor orb should have 2 card slot in the sb as it won me at least two matches tonight by itself, rendering cards useless. i didnt play against any venser decks but i assume it would do the same to that as well as slowing down valakut considerably. this is something to consider but i will definitely be running the orbs as I think that they are just awesome.
I have not played many of the decks you mentioned, but I have noted that it shuts down Valakut's Titans and Avengers quite well. Perhaps I will try 2-3 in my SB of in place of Sadistic Sacraments, which is a lot more reactive than I would like. I guess this will mean that I have to throw in targeted removal into the SB as well, as Torpor Orb doesn't stop Titan from fetching on attack. =\
Why no targeted removal in the 75 other than Disfigure?
PS: Does Haunting Echoes have any value right now? With all of our removal/discard, HE should nab plenty by turn 5.
Because there's not really much to remove (aside from Titans). Almost all of the strategies these days involve small, card-efficient creatures with equipment. If it makes you feel more comfortable, you can add three GFTT or Doom Blade into the SB. (But most control these days has little to no single target removal.) =\
Anyone having any success with Despise? Or are we just fine with IoK and Duress?
Oftentimes, Despise is redundant (which can be a good thing); Inquisition and Despise is a house against creature-heavy decks; Duress and Despise totally dismantles control decks centered around Planeswalkers. But Inquisition and Duress is much more flexible in eliminating threats, specifically equipment and removal, which are what the decks to beat have in spades.
I run two exarchs and they are champs. In one game I was able to run out a kicked gatekeeper FIVE times because of the exarchs. Also great for recurring grave titans and obliterators.
That implies that they killed your Gatekeeper four times at least... -_-"
Anyhow, Entomber Exarch is nice (amazing with Mimic Vat, but only nice without, since it doesn't always get Jace or Sword before they hit the board), but we have so many 4cc cards already.
In essence, this deck succeeds because it has a lot of hand disruption, which makes it really strong against many T1 decks that rely heavily on synergy.
Liliana's Specter is actually really useful these days. It can take out a Hawk in a pinch, and it can't be stalled by Jace. Also, I was surprised by the amazing synergy with Lashwrithe, which forces them to waste removal on Specter. My finishers, Obliterator and Titan, are really hard to deal with when supported by Exarch and Duress/Inquisition; these cards also enable a turn five Mind Sludge.
For SBing, we swap Duress for Disfigure and Exarch for Ratchet Bomb against RDW; Specter for Parasite against Proliferate/Metallurgy-type decks; Sacraments for Lashwrithe (or a combination of other cards) against Valakut Titan; Titan for Golem against UB Control variants (they expect GFTT to protect them).
On a side note, most of you ought to consider 25-26 Swamp. The mana curve has shifted up a bit.
They can't exactly bounce back from constant board wipe.
Just checking, it's Soul's Attendant+Suture Priest+Phyrexian Metamorph, with Squadron Hawk+Sword/Batterskull (using Stoneforge Mystic to fetch) and Ajani's Pridemate as the beaters?
this is kinda true of any 4 drop in the format. I think you're misplaying though. The point is, with Jace... Play him anyways or rock out with more hexmage and more discard to prevent Jace from hitting. Jace bouncing is the better than him brainstorming, and they must answer Obliterator. The fact is there's no good answer to Jace aside from discard and counterspelling. Obliterator isn't meant as an answer to him either, he's meant as an efficient 4 drop that can win the game. He's not a solution, don't try to think of him like one... he's a finisher. Also you really don't need the generic lands and they hurt lashwrithe. Valakut isn't played anymore so there's just no need for them.
QFT. You don't need to drop him on turn four.
And really, shouldn't Duress and Hexmage handle Jace well?
That's like saying Lashwrithe is good with a stoneforge mystic. It's good in the deck, especially against aggro.
Lashwrithe would not be good with a Stoneforge Mystic, since that would necessitate you running white mana. =P
Without Mystic, Batterskull is an overpriced creature--surely, we will rarely find an opportunity to actually equip it. It can recur, so it can be very powerful, but so can Bloodghast, which is probably a lot more dangerous against control decks, since it recurs from the graveyard; Batterskull is ridiculously vulnerable on the turn that it is played and when it is in your hand (in comparison to Bloodghast).
On the other hand, without Mystic, Lashwrithe is a scaling creature that can instantly equip onto a creature to enable a 2-3 turn clock. If you want Lifelink, play Nighthawk and Lashwrithe together. They're pretty solid turn three and four drops. A turn three 2/3 and then four 6/7 Flying, Deathtouch, Lifelink (or a 2/3 and a 4/4) is much more solid against aggro than a turn five 4/4 Lifelink, Vigilance.
In summary, Batterskull is a good card. But it is not better than Lashwrithe, which should always have preeminence in this all-black deck.
Yeah... in a post-Jace and Cawblade environment (no more Hawk/Mystic, YAY), Parasite doesn't seem to be as necessary. The worst that you will encounter is Gideon, and Parasite does not do too great against him; in fact, a big Planeswalker is the only reason why someone would pick Hexmage over Parasite--in every other case, Parasite's re-usability make it superior.
Oh. Then I guess we will not be using Dismember.
We are not supposed to talk about this. But if we can ramp into it, it will be terrifying. But I still prefer Mind Sludge to it.
Sadly, when this time comes, we will have to swap out our own Titans for Precursor Golem (hopefully, no Lightning Bolt reprint) or Wurmcoil Engine; the former has better synergy with Mimic Vat, the latter with Lashwrithe. Unless they reprint it (fat chance; they made their money).
Right now, it's pretty worthless, as Titans are still in use.
In the future though, who knows? It definitely has the speed advantage.
I would recommend 4 Inquisition and 3 Duress. It's really hard for them to play a Sword without drawing it off the top of the deck if you have two of either in your hand. Even one makes a Mystic drop unlikely. Slow the combo down enough, and it poses far less of a problem.
The SB plan I would use involves swapping out my Exarch and Titan for Torpor Orb and some 2 or 3-of. I've had experience playing this type of deck; I ran Damping Matrix Control during the Ravfinity days.
Deep Black is just slang for MBA, right? (I really do no hope it catches on.)
Shade was great when it was only Doom Blade. UB Control couldn't handle him.
The same as them drawing their 3-of. Honestly, by your argument, we ought not play any card that is great early on but not later on account of us not drawing it early.
And I read the discussion. I agreed with it at first, but now I am revising my thinking. The synergies are abusive against some decks.
Where did your reading comprehension go? Did I not say "Inquisition/Duress plus Torpor Orb?" And did I say that it was only good against Cawblade? I mean, didn't my previous post suggest that the SB slot that Orb would be replacing Sadistic Sacrament? -_-
The idea of SBing is to improve your matchup by taking out irrelevant cards and putting in relevant cards. Increasing the flexibility of your sideboard is very important. And Torpor Orb is a silver bullet for many more decks than Sacraments or Memoricide (right now, anyway). It will win you the game outright against most forms of RUG, and it cripples Cawblade and Valakut if played early.
In both pre- and post-SB, your turn one is Inquisition/Duress to scout their hand and remove a combo piece or two.
In post-SB:
-With Orb in your opening hand, you know what to take more clearly. Let us assume you are playing Cawblade. Orb shuts down both Hawk and Mystic, so you can go for removal, CA, or maybe a Planeswalker.
-Without Orb in your opening hand, you are in the same pre-SB situation.
I fail to see a situation where you would need to SB in Massacre Wurm... maybe Soul Sisters, but even that's a stretch. Likewise, Consume the Meek is way too slow. Black Sun's Zenith, Marsh Casualties, and Ratchet Bomb ought to be your considerations for board wipe.
I have been theorycrafting with Torpor Orb, and it seems REALLY solid. Kudos to whoever recommended it. Before I thought about it, the card seemed gimmicky to me. Inquisition/Duress plus Torpor Orb makes for a really strong opening against Valakut, Cawblade, and RUG (I laugh at Acidic Slime), which are the DTB these days. Also, it shuts down Soul Sisters... why people talk about that deck, I cannot understand.
I have not played many of the decks you mentioned, but I have noted that it shuts down Valakut's Titans and Avengers quite well. Perhaps I will try 2-3 in my SB of in place of Sadistic Sacraments, which is a lot more reactive than I would like. I guess this will mean that I have to throw in targeted removal into the SB as well, as Torpor Orb doesn't stop Titan from fetching on attack. =\
Because there's not really much to remove (aside from Titans). Almost all of the strategies these days involve small, card-efficient creatures with equipment. If it makes you feel more comfortable, you can add three GFTT or Doom Blade into the SB. (But most control these days has little to no single target removal.) =\
Here:
3 Hex Parasite
3 Go For the Throat
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Precursor Golem
Or:
3 Hex Parasite
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Precursor Golem
If you want to keep the Ratchet Bomb around.
Finals week. I only get to play MWS in my study breaks. T_T
But it's really brutal for anyone with a less-than-ideal hand. The key is to tailor their plan to the answers in your hand early on.
Oftentimes, Despise is redundant (which can be a good thing); Inquisition and Despise is a house against creature-heavy decks; Duress and Despise totally dismantles control decks centered around Planeswalkers. But Inquisition and Duress is much more flexible in eliminating threats, specifically equipment and removal, which are what the decks to beat have in spades.
That implies that they killed your Gatekeeper four times at least... -_-"
Anyhow, Entomber Exarch is nice (amazing with Mimic Vat, but only nice without, since it doesn't always get Jace or Sword before they hit the board), but we have so many 4cc cards already.
Here is what I am running:
25 Swamp
Creatures - 12
3 Liliana's Specter
2 Entomber Exarch
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Grave Titan
Spells - 16
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
3 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Sign in Blood
3 Mind Sludge
3 Mimic Vat
4 Lashwrithe
3 Disfigure
3 Hex Parasite
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Precursor Golem
In essence, this deck succeeds because it has a lot of hand disruption, which makes it really strong against many T1 decks that rely heavily on synergy.
Liliana's Specter is actually really useful these days. It can take out a Hawk in a pinch, and it can't be stalled by Jace. Also, I was surprised by the amazing synergy with Lashwrithe, which forces them to waste removal on Specter. My finishers, Obliterator and Titan, are really hard to deal with when supported by Exarch and Duress/Inquisition; these cards also enable a turn five Mind Sludge.
For SBing, we swap Duress for Disfigure and Exarch for Ratchet Bomb against RDW; Specter for Parasite against Proliferate/Metallurgy-type decks; Sacraments for Lashwrithe (or a combination of other cards) against Valakut Titan; Titan for Golem against UB Control variants (they expect GFTT to protect them).
On a side note, most of you ought to consider 25-26 Swamp. The mana curve has shifted up a bit.
Soul Sisters? How are you having trouble?
Inquisition of Kozilek. Marsh Casualties. Black Sun's Zenith. Ratchet Bomb.
They can't exactly bounce back from constant board wipe.
Just checking, it's Soul's Attendant+Suture Priest+Phyrexian Metamorph, with Squadron Hawk+Sword/Batterskull (using Stoneforge Mystic to fetch) and Ajani's Pridemate as the beaters?
QFT. You don't need to drop him on turn four.
And really, shouldn't Duress and Hexmage handle Jace well?
Lashwrithe would not be good with a Stoneforge Mystic, since that would necessitate you running white mana. =P
Without Mystic, Batterskull is an overpriced creature--surely, we will rarely find an opportunity to actually equip it. It can recur, so it can be very powerful, but so can Bloodghast, which is probably a lot more dangerous against control decks, since it recurs from the graveyard; Batterskull is ridiculously vulnerable on the turn that it is played and when it is in your hand (in comparison to Bloodghast).
On the other hand, without Mystic, Lashwrithe is a scaling creature that can instantly equip onto a creature to enable a 2-3 turn clock. If you want Lifelink, play Nighthawk and Lashwrithe together. They're pretty solid turn three and four drops. A turn three 2/3 and then four 6/7 Flying, Deathtouch, Lifelink (or a 2/3 and a 4/4) is much more solid against aggro than a turn five 4/4 Lifelink, Vigilance.
In summary, Batterskull is a good card. But it is not better than Lashwrithe, which should always have preeminence in this all-black deck.