Is there a way to combine these lists that doesn't rely on coco? If you use Altar of the Brood as the "Kill condition" in the infinite loop, you can stay GW or be GWu and have Reflector Mage in order to do the sick things that card does with Displacer.
Copied the Mana Base from the previous guys, would need to be tinkered with, but wanted to throw something on there as this is more thought experiment than anything.
SO, crazy idea I'm tinkering with, incorporating the infinite combo of Zulaport Cutthroat, Eldrazi Displacer and Brood Monitor into a midrange value deck focused on devoid. My idea here is to try and have a strong solid manabase to play with this combo and just stay competitive throughout the game. Don't know if this is strong enough, but it sounds fun, so I want to kick some ideas around and see what the most competitive we can make it is.
How'd States end up going, Aggro? Curious to hear if things went well or not. I'm starting to gear up for Gameday, since its the next tournament I'll probably be able to attend. Right now, I think I'm leaning towards taking something a bit more :
Tried cleaning some numbers up, and while I think a Nissa would be really strong, I don't own one currently, and the price tag is a bit high. It also lets me mess with the mana a bit more and not have to run 3 forests. Sideboard needs some work, and I'm also considering trying something a bit more Dragon based and cutting the From Beyonds, but didn't want to post that here unless you were interested in the list.
Rakshasa is definitely a powerful card, but doesn't really fit the deck. If we want a really powerful two drop, I think Hangarback Walker is stronger. If we want a synergistic one, I like Carrier Thrall or Sultai Emissary. Every slot has to count since we have to find the right mix of removal and Creatures, and I think there are just stronger options for this style of deck. We could look at a more low to the ground aggro deck and Rakshasa would be strong there as an early creature with late value, but it doesn't really fit with where we're trying to take the deck.
The first batch of creatures is my base, and you notice it's all green except for Sifter requires black. I'm not decided on a third color but I'm fond of blue, and besides I feel I need some easy-on-the-mana flying defenses and Silumgar fits. All the spells and sideboard cards are not strongly considered.
The essence of the deck of course is that nobody ever will be able to stop the creatures from storming onto the battlefield. Megamorph comes back, and all these creatures provide scry, card draw or extra creatures so removal will just run out.
The mana base is very random at the moment. I could change it all to fetches and zenduals but I don't know yet. If I stick with the Sultai and stick with pain lands, I will certainly add trilands.
I've definitly considered blue as a splash color as well (hell, I've been thinking about playing 4 colors, and whether that should be blue or white) but if you are going to play blue with Megamorph, there is no reason to not have 4 Jace in the deck. Lets you recast spells, puts Raptors in the grave to get back with other megamorphs, and is probably the strongest card in standard.
I also think that the manabase should be built around fetches and battlelands and you need some copies of Dig Through Time Grim Haruspex doesn't do anything for you really, as that card doesn't trigger off of tokens and I really don't like Roar of Challenge. I think a Sultai Control/midrange deck can work well, but there is still some work to be done here.
I don't think you are drifting too far off yet, it's definitely changed but change is good.
But honestly thinking about it a jund in standard is more then workable...hmm let's figure out how to make jund rock consistant.
I still think ugin deserves a spot as a 1 of main board he is pay 8 mana and win the game
And I'm personally going to keep Blisterpod in main. The ability for a turn 2 Sifter or turn 3 fr beyond is just too strong
I'm on board for this. I really like Jund as the place to go personally. I haven't tested Ugin, and don't currently have one, which is one reason I haven't been adding him, but it certainly doesn't mean he's wrong. Getting to 8 mana with this deck is no problem. I Just like Ob a bit more, and own one ,which is why I've gone down that route. Honestly, if we're both tinkering with slightly different builds, it will help us come to conclusions better I think since we don't have a ton of people working on a list like this yet.
As for Blisterpod, I think that guy is still totally justifiable. I just wanted to try going a bit bigger, and see where that went. He does a great job of stalling them a bit in the early game, and like you said, can just ramp you into stuff a bit faster.
I do think we need to work on nailing down the right amount of lands. Really wish we had the GB manland already, as I think that would make playing 25+ lands more justifiable. I used to play in the old Jund days of standard and we just ran 27/28 lands because we had 4-6 manlands and it was oh so nice. Llanowar Wastes feels so bad in the deck, and is really only defensible for casting a turn one Despise or Blisterpod, so I think if you are keeping the pod, it's worth having the card, but it might be better to move toward a more Battleland focused manabase. What's nice about that is we get 8 fetches that can grab red, so we can play just 1 basic mountain and have access to red turn 1/2 almost no problem for early removal if we want red removal, which I think is strong.
To me, the Rock always has been a Midrange deck, looking to capitalize on 4 and 5 mana spells that were exceptionally powerful. I feel like From Beyond is just a powerful Win Condition that can grind out your opponents in a long game. Having it in the deck makes Ulamog castable. I had no problem in any of my games casting him even though I usually only got to 6 lands-ish. I like the idea of it being a Midrange deck that has the option to go big. I definitely feel like its become more straight Jund than GB splash R but I don't know if that's a bad thing. The mana in standard is so good right now playing 4 and 5 colors is the norm, so playing 3 seems more than feasible.
If you feel I'm drifting too far off though, I can move this to another thread/start working on my own or pull it back in. I'm really just interested in pursuing all the different options available to a From Beyond deck. it's the card that got me excited to play this archetype.
I was low on Despise to start as well, for the exact reasons sslater listed, but playing with it made me come around. It hits everything you want to get with your removal spells, but more importantly, it gives you another early play. The deck has very little to do in the early turns, so getting knowledge of their hand and getting a big threat out of the way helps you set up and know where to go with the deck. Transgress feels to expensive for what it does though, and since we aren't synergizing with any processors, feels unnecessary.
Something I've been thinking about now that we are splashing red, what do we think about Draconic Roar or Fiery Impulse? These both feel like strong removal spells we could potentially play. I think I might like Draconic Roar more than Ultimate Price as it kills everything I want to hit with Price but also kills Mantis Rider. Fiery Impulse could be great out the side/couple in the main as more ways to interact early with decks like Atarka Red and RG Landfall. Plus it can sometimes kill a Mantis Rider as well.
Heck, we can even trigger the bonus on Draconic Road on occasion thanks to Dragonlord Atarka
I've been exploring the idea of adding a bit more red, here's where I'm at so far:
Ok, so added a bunch more removal, and cut the Smotheirng Abomination/Blisterpod cards for the more powerful Thunderbreak Regent. Dunno if that is right, but it's what I want to try out. Blisterpod kind of underperformed the other night, and I think that I was trying to do to many cute things. I want every threat I present to matter, and I want to kill anything that gets in the way.
I settled on Regent because I think it dodges a lot of commonly played removal right now. About the only thing that hits it is Murderous Cut (which people usually only play 1/2 of) Ruinous Path (Which isn't a great card at the moment, but kills everything so it doesn't matter) and Ultimate Price (Which no one seems to be playing). It dodges all the burn save Exquisite Firecraft (again, not seeing a lot of this card) and Complete Disregard. Plus if they do manage to take it out, they take three damage for thier trouble. Gives another way to activate Draconic Roar (not important, but relevant to point out) and it kills Mantis Rider without dying itself. Plus its big enough to stop Den Protector.
The manabase doesn't feel like much of a stretch at all, and the only thing I'm thinking about is cutting the Tomb (since I have another big threat that isn't colorless, though Tomb/From Beyond is SO GOOD) for a Blighted Fen or another colored land. Added a single Mountian so the fetches can get it turn 1/2 to cast Impulse/Roar.
I wonder if the Jaddi Offshoot might have its day if the Atarka Red decks pull back on combat tricks? An 0/3 blocker for 1 that also gains life seems a little better than a removal spell vs. an aggro deck... unless they can trample over it. Maybe try it again if the meta shifts so that the Makindi Sliderunner/Temur Battle Rage shenanigans are less prevalent?
But right now, yeah, seems a little lackluster.
That was exactly my experience. When the aggro decks can just two card combo deal *insert ridiculous number* to you, gaining a couple of life just doesn't to much. I think I definitely need to have a full set of Ultimate Prices to make that match even remotely winnable. Just take out most of the high end, bring in a bunch of removal, and kill everything they play before landing a From Beyond or something. Any threat that sticks will win the game here, as just running them out of creatures is the way to beat them. They don't play that many of them because they have so many combat tricks. I honestly think it could even be right to bring in a few Duress, though I'm not sure exactly how many.
A few questions/comments
Do you think if you had retreat to kazandu it would have made a difference? (For me it always seems to vs fast red to drop it turn 3/4 then slowly lifegain out of there kill)
Does a 4th from beyond seem like overkill to you?
sidisi seems really goood.
But nice performance for that, not amazing but still nice for going in mostly blind
I don't think lifegain is the way to fight Aggro right now, and don't know if I would've wanted Kazandu either. I could be wrong, but I think just killing all their guys and blanking their pump spells seems like a stronger way to go. I also want all Instant speed removal because Collected Company is annoying -.-
I think 4 From Beyond's would be to many. I sided out a From Beyond in a couple of Matchups, but that could've been wrong. I never felt like I wanted more though. I also got to cast Ulamog in three of my four rounds, so having him in there to go grab was super good. Not many better feelings than dropping an Eldrazi titan to the table
So I did make it out to the standard event last night, and was able to put together the deck with the Red splash. Took a bunch of stuff that had been sitting around in some EDH decks I wasn't playing anymore and traded for everything. Here's the list I ran:
Went 2-2 beat a new player running the cards he had and an Mardu Ally Rally deck, barely lost to a Jeskai Black player (Drew three lands in a row when anything to stall another turn would have finished him off) and got trounced by a GR Landfall deck. Since this was my first standard tournament in about 3 years, I felt pretty good with my play, and noticed just how much knowing the meta will help this deck.
Definitely need a few more cheap ways to kill creatures for the aggressive Red/Landfall decks. I didn't draw the sideboarded Ultimate Prices when I played him game two, but had I, I think I win that round. I had stalled him out long enough to resolve a Languish but died to some burn because I couldn't stop some of the face damage before that.
Hangarback walker was great all night, giving me big threats, chump blockers and the like. People are definitely prepared for it though, and it often was just exiled. Radiant Flames also worked really well, getting to come down a full turn earlier than Languish and I even cast it on two one game to wipe my opponents board and leave me with a Sifter. Most of our guys survive a pyroclasm, so being able to tune it to 2 is actually really relevant. Languish needing to get to 4 didn't matter in any of the games, and I think I'm going to go up to the third Flames and maybe sideboard the fourth or a Languish.
Jaddi Offshoot was irrelevant. All the fast decks right now I'd rather have creature kill than the random life gain. I think those are getting cut and I want more cheap interaction. Probably the full 4 Ultimate Price, but maybe 3 and another complete disregard since that card is so good against Mantis Rider and being able to bring that in seems really good.
The manabase was phenomenal. Very rarely did it effect me, and then only because I drew like three of my four colorless lands early or one game I was forced to play a turn behind because I couldn't get basics out and had to fetch for BR lands with Wooded Foothills. I think I want to swap it to 3/3 or 4 Mire 2 foothills. Maybe just play more Fetches, not really sure. The fetch/battle land manabase works great for this though.
Sidisi was an all-star. She was a last minute addition I had, but she was great every time I drew her. She can block and kill a Rhino while living, gets me exactly what I need, and makes the 1 of even more powerful. All-in-all a great addition.
Ruinous Path was SO bad. Non-instant speed hurts so much, but being able to kill Planeswalkers is such a bonus...ugh.. It feels like a necessary evil. I'm honestly tempted to put them in the side and start a pair of Ultimate Price. Despise was fine. Ok, not stellar, but I didn't draw it often when it would've been the most relevant. Think it's worth testing it more.
So, taking that all into consideration, I think next time I take this bad boy out it'll looks something like this:
Disregard seems good for now, I was just looking for more turn 2 plays for the deck. I think I'll move the Prices to the side and run the Disregards in the main.
With Languish vs Flames, I really like flames for a few reasons. Languish is higher sure, but there aren't a ton of cards that Flames misses I'm super worried about. Off the top of my head, Anafenza seems to be the only one. And Flames gives you the opportunity to cast it to deal 2 damage keeping a large amount of our own creatures alive. Again, meta seems to be really important for the decision.
I want to try out Caterpillar and see if I miss not hitting manlands. Caterpillar gets a potential scry/draw with itself and costs 1 less than Reclaiming vines. It does cost more than Naturalize though, so I'm not certain.
Evolutionary Leap seems good to counter removal, which is the main reason I have it in here right now, but I could see it being better to bring in out of the side for the control match-up. If I can pick up some Languishes for tonight I'll move it to the board.
Really liking the red splash. Wooded Foothills to get Cinder Glade or Smoldering Marsh is very solid tech, and Atarka feels like she fits well. What do you think of Radiant Flames over Languish? Still feel like I want Hangarback walker over Carrier Thrall, but that is a matter of preference I guess, and you have tested the version way more than I have. Definitely come around on Despise as well, seems insane in the meta.
Have you considered Ultimate Price for Complete Disregard? Neither kills Siege Rhino, and Ultimate Price misses Mantis Rider, but Price seems a lot better against the red decks packing the Become Immense/Temur Battle Rage Combo. Instant speed 2 mana kill your guy seems really good there. Probably is a meta call.
I also think its worth Testing Ob Nixilis over Ugin. Now that you have Atarka on the top end to help out Ulamog, having a Card Advantage engine lower on the curve should help bridge the gap better. Hoping to go to a Standard Tourney tonight and run the following list. Don't have time/money to get the fetches/battle lands to make the jund splash, so having to rock classic Golgari:
Need to find a place for the Languishes/Flames and I know the sideboard needs work, but I am working from something of a budget, so things will update as I get more pieces. I think if I could afford to just build what I wanted it would look something like this:
I have recently come up with the following list, which revolves more on the interaction between cards that benefit from sacrificing creatures. My original idea used Zulaport Cutthroat instead of the Fleshbag Marauders, but I couldn't get my hands on a 4-off yet.
Would love some feedback on the list itself and also on sideboarding this deck. I have a somewhat limited budget, so no Hangarback Walkers, Ruinous Paths or the sorts.
Thanks in advance!
This deck seems more in line with an aristocrats list than a GB Midrange/Rock list. I'd go check out their thread, they have some great advice on how to play that style of deck.
I think that there are some solid claims being made here, but the OP has stated his intentions numerous times, so throwing out hate isn't getting anywhere. I think we're at the point where bringing results and our own lists is a better place to start. When I brought my list in, you could see how he evolved the list to accommodate new ideas, and the same happened when another poster recommended Tomb of the Spirit Dragon.
That being said, with adding Tomb of the Spirit Dragon, you have even less reason to not use Llanowar Wastes. Especially since you are running Despise. Being able to have a land that could tap for Blisterpod or Despise turn one cannot be overlooked. I haven't been able to take it to a tournament yet, but carefully planning out your turns ahead of time makes the EtB lands not affect to much. Jungle Hollow feels like a very solid addition and nets you back a life. Also, if you are set on playing Retreat to Kazandu in the main, you should definitely have Evolving Wilds for the double triggers. I'm trying Jaddi Offshoot in the side right now with two Tomb of the Spirit Dragon main.
I think that right now we need to have ways to answer Jace, Vryn's Prodigy at instant speed as well, and the only card you've mentioned so far that does that is murderous cut. Answering this guy feels so important that I'm looking at playing Complete Disregard somewhere in the 75 to compliment the Murderous Cuts and Ruinous Paths. In fact, his presence alone is making me look more seriously at Despise
With Hangarback Walker I find he's super crazy powerful for this deck because he fills whatever you are missing on the curve. Dropping a card turns 1-5 is super strong with this deck, and probably your best bet of staying in a lot of games. This deck definitely needs a lot to compete, and so making sure we try and optimize its most powerful turns is important. Plus turn 2 Hangarback Walker into turn 3 Catacomb Sifter sac the token to level Walker and scry 1 is super strong, particularly if you can chump block with the token.
I'm gonna assume that some of the choices here are based around not having access to some cards, as there are some pretty obvious changes that could go in, mainly in the manabase. I'm definitely interested in making a deck like this work myself, so lemme throw my ideas into the mix:
I think that there's TONS to tinker with in this deck, and the deck will need to be tuned week to week to go with the expected metagame. I think people are playing pretty aggressive decks right now, so I think that the discard spells should be in the side, but that's just me. Having more kill spells (especially cheap ones) seem really good to kill the cheap landfall guys. It might be aggressive enough you want some lifegain in the main, but I'd rather start it in the side. I'm also not a huge fan of the switch to Abzan in the board, it feels like this should either just be Abzan (which is possible) or we should stick to our colors. There are plenty of powerful options in Golgari that we can use to try the deck out. I like the idea of potentially making the deck more aggressive out of the board, with maybe some Zulaport Cuththroats and Nantuko Husks so if we're supposed to be the beatdown we can go lower curve. There's my initial thoughts on the archetype, super excited to tinker with this deck.
I would image that NWO only goes so far. Modern's validity and longevity as a popular format basically relies on Wizards reprinting the fetchlands, and because of this, Wizards will turn their back on NWO momentarily. That's my guess at least.
Also, doesn't NWO mostly refer to commons and complexity?
NWO refers ONLY to commons and their complexity. NWO has no bearing on whether they would reprint fetches in the core set.
That being said, they did specifically point to life loss being something newer players dislike as a reason they weren't going to print painlands in the core anymore, and fetches not only include life loss, but also are more confusing than pain lands. It could happen, but I would think it more likely to see them in an expert expansion.
I'm pretty sure that Strix was a word that they used exclusively on the Esper shard too. The only other two cards with the word "Strix" in them are both artifact birds from the Alara set. Wouldn't really fit in with the name it has.
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reflector Mage
3x Brood Monitor
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Void Grafter
Spells 10
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Treasure Cruise
6x More Protective Spells/Card Draw
3x Altar of the Brood
2 Forest
1 Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Prairie Stream
1 Canopy Vista
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Lumbering Falls
Copied the Mana Base from the previous guys, would need to be tinkered with, but wanted to throw something on there as this is more thought experiment than anything.
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Brood Monitor
4x Catacomb Sifter
2x World Breaker
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Bearer of Silence
2x Painful Truths
4x Duress
2x Spatial Contortion
2x From Beyond
Land - 25
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Caves of Koilos
2x Hissing Quagmire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Canopy Vista
1x Smoldering Marsh
2x Forest
4x Corrupted Crossroads
1x Ruins of Oran-Rief
1x Mirrorpool
So, definitely still needs some work, very open to suggestions, and highly doubt this is optimal, but an idea nonetheless.
2x Blighted Fen
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Cinder Glade
2x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mountain
3x Smoldering Marsh
3x Swamp
4x Wooded Foothills
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Creature (16)
4x Catacomb Sifter
1x Dragonlord Atarka
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4x Thunderbreak Regent
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Despise
3x Radiant Flames
3x Ruinous Path
Instant (7)
2x Complete Disregard
4x Draconic Roar
1x Murderous Cut
Enchantment (3)
3x From Beyond
3x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Complete Disregard
1x Deathless Behemoth
4x Duress
3x Fiery Impulse
Tried cleaning some numbers up, and while I think a Nissa would be really strong, I don't own one currently, and the price tag is a bit high. It also lets me mess with the mana a bit more and not have to run 3 forests. Sideboard needs some work, and I'm also considering trying something a bit more Dragon based and cutting the From Beyonds, but didn't want to post that here unless you were interested in the list.
I've definitly considered blue as a splash color as well (hell, I've been thinking about playing 4 colors, and whether that should be blue or white) but if you are going to play blue with Megamorph, there is no reason to not have 4 Jace in the deck. Lets you recast spells, puts Raptors in the grave to get back with other megamorphs, and is probably the strongest card in standard.
I also think that the manabase should be built around fetches and battlelands and you need some copies of Dig Through Time Grim Haruspex doesn't do anything for you really, as that card doesn't trigger off of tokens and I really don't like Roar of Challenge. I think a Sultai Control/midrange deck can work well, but there is still some work to be done here.
I'm on board for this. I really like Jund as the place to go personally. I haven't tested Ugin, and don't currently have one, which is one reason I haven't been adding him, but it certainly doesn't mean he's wrong. Getting to 8 mana with this deck is no problem. I Just like Ob a bit more, and own one ,which is why I've gone down that route. Honestly, if we're both tinkering with slightly different builds, it will help us come to conclusions better I think since we don't have a ton of people working on a list like this yet.
As for Blisterpod, I think that guy is still totally justifiable. I just wanted to try going a bit bigger, and see where that went. He does a great job of stalling them a bit in the early game, and like you said, can just ramp you into stuff a bit faster.
I do think we need to work on nailing down the right amount of lands. Really wish we had the GB manland already, as I think that would make playing 25+ lands more justifiable. I used to play in the old Jund days of standard and we just ran 27/28 lands because we had 4-6 manlands and it was oh so nice. Llanowar Wastes feels so bad in the deck, and is really only defensible for casting a turn one Despise or Blisterpod, so I think if you are keeping the pod, it's worth having the card, but it might be better to move toward a more Battleland focused manabase. What's nice about that is we get 8 fetches that can grab red, so we can play just 1 basic mountain and have access to red turn 1/2 almost no problem for early removal if we want red removal, which I think is strong.
If you feel I'm drifting too far off though, I can move this to another thread/start working on my own or pull it back in. I'm really just interested in pursuing all the different options available to a From Beyond deck. it's the card that got me excited to play this archetype.
Something I've been thinking about now that we are splashing red, what do we think about Draconic Roar or Fiery Impulse? These both feel like strong removal spells we could potentially play. I think I might like Draconic Roar more than Ultimate Price as it kills everything I want to hit with Price but also kills Mantis Rider. Fiery Impulse could be great out the side/couple in the main as more ways to interact early with decks like Atarka Red and RG Landfall. Plus it can sometimes kill a Mantis Rider as well.
Heck, we can even trigger the bonus on Draconic Road on occasion thanks to Dragonlord Atarka
I've been exploring the idea of adding a bit more red, here's where I'm at so far:
1x Blighted Fen
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Cinder Glade
3x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mountain
3x Smoldering Marsh
3x Swamp
1x Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
4x Wooded Foothills
Planeswalker
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Creature
4x Catacomb Sifter
1x Dragonlord Atarka
4x Hangarback Walker
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4x Thunderbreak Regent
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Complete Disregard
3x Draconic Roar
1x Fiery Impulse
2x Murderous Cut
Sorcery
4x Despise
3x Radiant Flames
Enchantment
3x From Beyond
3x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Complete Disregard
1x Deathless Behemoth
1x Draconic Roar
4x Duress
3x Fiery Impulse
2x Ruinous Path
Ok, so added a bunch more removal, and cut the Smotheirng Abomination/Blisterpod cards for the more powerful Thunderbreak Regent. Dunno if that is right, but it's what I want to try out. Blisterpod kind of underperformed the other night, and I think that I was trying to do to many cute things. I want every threat I present to matter, and I want to kill anything that gets in the way.
I settled on Regent because I think it dodges a lot of commonly played removal right now. About the only thing that hits it is Murderous Cut (which people usually only play 1/2 of) Ruinous Path (Which isn't a great card at the moment, but kills everything so it doesn't matter) and Ultimate Price (Which no one seems to be playing). It dodges all the burn save Exquisite Firecraft (again, not seeing a lot of this card) and Complete Disregard. Plus if they do manage to take it out, they take three damage for thier trouble. Gives another way to activate Draconic Roar (not important, but relevant to point out) and it kills Mantis Rider without dying itself. Plus its big enough to stop Den Protector.
The manabase doesn't feel like much of a stretch at all, and the only thing I'm thinking about is cutting the Tomb (since I have another big threat that isn't colorless, though Tomb/From Beyond is SO GOOD) for a Blighted Fen or another colored land. Added a single Mountian so the fetches can get it turn 1/2 to cast Impulse/Roar.
That was exactly my experience. When the aggro decks can just two card combo deal *insert ridiculous number* to you, gaining a couple of life just doesn't to much. I think I definitely need to have a full set of Ultimate Prices to make that match even remotely winnable. Just take out most of the high end, bring in a bunch of removal, and kill everything they play before landing a From Beyond or something. Any threat that sticks will win the game here, as just running them out of creatures is the way to beat them. They don't play that many of them because they have so many combat tricks. I honestly think it could even be right to bring in a few Duress, though I'm not sure exactly how many.
I don't think lifegain is the way to fight Aggro right now, and don't know if I would've wanted Kazandu either. I could be wrong, but I think just killing all their guys and blanking their pump spells seems like a stronger way to go. I also want all Instant speed removal because Collected Company is annoying -.-
I think 4 From Beyond's would be to many. I sided out a From Beyond in a couple of Matchups, but that could've been wrong. I never felt like I wanted more though. I also got to cast Ulamog in three of my four rounds, so having him in there to go grab was super good. Not many better feelings than dropping an Eldrazi titan to the table
2x Blighted Fen
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Cinder Glade
3x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp
2x Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
4x Wooded Foothills
Enchantment
3x From Beyond
Creature
4x Blisterpod
4x Catacomb Sifter
1x Dragonlord Atarka
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2x Smothering Abomination
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Complete Disregard
2x Murderous Cut
Planeswalker
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Sorcery
4x Despise
1x Languish
2x Radiant Flames
2x Ruinous Path
3x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Deathless Behemoth
4x Duress
2x Evolutionary Leap
3x Jaddi Offshoot
2x Ultimate Price
Went 2-2 beat a new player running the cards he had and an Mardu Ally Rally deck, barely lost to a Jeskai Black player (Drew three lands in a row when anything to stall another turn would have finished him off) and got trounced by a GR Landfall deck. Since this was my first standard tournament in about 3 years, I felt pretty good with my play, and noticed just how much knowing the meta will help this deck.
Definitely need a few more cheap ways to kill creatures for the aggressive Red/Landfall decks. I didn't draw the sideboarded Ultimate Prices when I played him game two, but had I, I think I win that round. I had stalled him out long enough to resolve a Languish but died to some burn because I couldn't stop some of the face damage before that.
Hangarback walker was great all night, giving me big threats, chump blockers and the like. People are definitely prepared for it though, and it often was just exiled. Radiant Flames also worked really well, getting to come down a full turn earlier than Languish and I even cast it on two one game to wipe my opponents board and leave me with a Sifter. Most of our guys survive a pyroclasm, so being able to tune it to 2 is actually really relevant. Languish needing to get to 4 didn't matter in any of the games, and I think I'm going to go up to the third Flames and maybe sideboard the fourth or a Languish.
Jaddi Offshoot was irrelevant. All the fast decks right now I'd rather have creature kill than the random life gain. I think those are getting cut and I want more cheap interaction. Probably the full 4 Ultimate Price, but maybe 3 and another complete disregard since that card is so good against Mantis Rider and being able to bring that in seems really good.
The manabase was phenomenal. Very rarely did it effect me, and then only because I drew like three of my four colorless lands early or one game I was forced to play a turn behind because I couldn't get basics out and had to fetch for BR lands with Wooded Foothills. I think I want to swap it to 3/3 or 4 Mire 2 foothills. Maybe just play more Fetches, not really sure. The fetch/battle land manabase works great for this though.
Sidisi was an all-star. She was a last minute addition I had, but she was great every time I drew her. She can block and kill a Rhino while living, gets me exactly what I need, and makes the 1 of even more powerful. All-in-all a great addition.
Ruinous Path was SO bad. Non-instant speed hurts so much, but being able to kill Planeswalkers is such a bonus...ugh.. It feels like a necessary evil. I'm honestly tempted to put them in the side and start a pair of Ultimate Price. Despise was fine. Ok, not stellar, but I didn't draw it often when it would've been the most relevant. Think it's worth testing it more.
So, taking that all into consideration, I think next time I take this bad boy out it'll looks something like this:
2x Blighted Fen
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Cinder Glade
3x Forest
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp
1x Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
3x Wooded Foothills
Enchantment
3x From Beyond
Creature
4x Blisterpod
4x Catacomb Sifter
1x Dragonlord Atarka
4x Hangarback Walker
2x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2x Smothering Abomination
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Complete Disregard
2x Murderous Cut
2x Ultimate Price
Planeswalker
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Sorcery
4x Despise
3x Radiant Flames
3x Caustic Caterpillar
1x Deathless Behemoth
4x Duress
1x Languish
1x Complete Disregard
2x Ruinous Path
2x Ultimate Price
1x Void Winnower
With Languish vs Flames, I really like flames for a few reasons. Languish is higher sure, but there aren't a ton of cards that Flames misses I'm super worried about. Off the top of my head, Anafenza seems to be the only one. And Flames gives you the opportunity to cast it to deal 2 damage keeping a large amount of our own creatures alive. Again, meta seems to be really important for the decision.
I want to try out Caterpillar and see if I miss not hitting manlands. Caterpillar gets a potential scry/draw with itself and costs 1 less than Reclaiming vines. It does cost more than Naturalize though, so I'm not certain.
Evolutionary Leap seems good to counter removal, which is the main reason I have it in here right now, but I could see it being better to bring in out of the side for the control match-up. If I can pick up some Languishes for tonight I'll move it to the board.
Have you considered Ultimate Price for Complete Disregard? Neither kills Siege Rhino, and Ultimate Price misses Mantis Rider, but Price seems a lot better against the red decks packing the Become Immense/Temur Battle Rage Combo. Instant speed 2 mana kill your guy seems really good there. Probably is a meta call.
I also think its worth Testing Ob Nixilis over Ugin. Now that you have Atarka on the top end to help out Ulamog, having a Card Advantage engine lower on the curve should help bridge the gap better. Hoping to go to a Standard Tourney tonight and run the following list. Don't have time/money to get the fetches/battle lands to make the jund splash, so having to rock classic Golgari:
4x Blisterpod
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Catacomb Sifter
3x Smothering Abomination
1x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Brood Butcher
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant
2x Murderous Cut
2x Ultimate Price
Sorcery
4x Despise
2x Bone Splinters
1x Ruinous Path
3x From Beyond
2x Evolutionary Leap
Planeswalker
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Land
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Jungle Hollow
2x Mortuary Mire
2x Blighted Fen
2x tomb of the Spirit Dragon
1x Spawning Bed
5x Swamp
5x Forest
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
3x Caustic Caterpillar
3x Duress
3x Jaddi Offshoot
1x Deathless Behemoth
1x Spawning Bed
Need to find a place for the Languishes/Flames and I know the sideboard needs work, but I am working from something of a budget, so things will update as I get more pieces. I think if I could afford to just build what I wanted it would look something like this:
4x Blisterpod
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Catacomb Sifter
3x Smothering Abomination
1x Dragonlord Atarka
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant
2x Murderous Cut
2x Ultimate Price
Sorcery
4x Despise
2x Radiant Flames
2x Ruinous Path
3x From Beyond
2x Evolutionary Leap
Planeswalker
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Land
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Smoldering Marsh
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Cinder Glade
2x Blighted Fen
2x Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
4x Swamp
3x Forest
3x Caustic Caterpillar
4x Duress
3x Jaddi Offshoot
1x Deathless Behemoth
1x Spawning Bed
2x Ruinous Path
1x Radiant Flames
This deck seems more in line with an aristocrats list than a GB Midrange/Rock list. I'd go check out their thread, they have some great advice on how to play that style of deck.
I think that there are some solid claims being made here, but the OP has stated his intentions numerous times, so throwing out hate isn't getting anywhere. I think we're at the point where bringing results and our own lists is a better place to start. When I brought my list in, you could see how he evolved the list to accommodate new ideas, and the same happened when another poster recommended Tomb of the Spirit Dragon.
That being said, with adding Tomb of the Spirit Dragon, you have even less reason to not use Llanowar Wastes. Especially since you are running Despise. Being able to have a land that could tap for Blisterpod or Despise turn one cannot be overlooked. I haven't been able to take it to a tournament yet, but carefully planning out your turns ahead of time makes the EtB lands not affect to much. Jungle Hollow feels like a very solid addition and nets you back a life. Also, if you are set on playing Retreat to Kazandu in the main, you should definitely have Evolving Wilds for the double triggers. I'm trying Jaddi Offshoot in the side right now with two Tomb of the Spirit Dragon main.
I think that right now we need to have ways to answer Jace, Vryn's Prodigy at instant speed as well, and the only card you've mentioned so far that does that is murderous cut. Answering this guy feels so important that I'm looking at playing Complete Disregard somewhere in the 75 to compliment the Murderous Cuts and Ruinous Paths. In fact, his presence alone is making me look more seriously at Despise
With Hangarback Walker I find he's super crazy powerful for this deck because he fills whatever you are missing on the curve. Dropping a card turns 1-5 is super strong with this deck, and probably your best bet of staying in a lot of games. This deck definitely needs a lot to compete, and so making sure we try and optimize its most powerful turns is important. Plus turn 2 Hangarback Walker into turn 3 Catacomb Sifter sac the token to level Walker and scry 1 is super strong, particularly if you can chump block with the token.
4x Blisterpod
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Catacomb Sifter
3x Smothering Abomination
2x Whisperwood Elemental
1x Brood Butcher
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Deathbringer Regent
3x Ruinous Path
2x Bone Splinters
2x Murderous Cut
3x From Beyond
2x Evolutionary Leap
2x Languish
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Jungle Hollow
2x Blighted Fen
3x Spawning Bed
2x Mortuary Mire
5x Forest
5x Swamp
I think that there's TONS to tinker with in this deck, and the deck will need to be tuned week to week to go with the expected metagame. I think people are playing pretty aggressive decks right now, so I think that the discard spells should be in the side, but that's just me. Having more kill spells (especially cheap ones) seem really good to kill the cheap landfall guys. It might be aggressive enough you want some lifegain in the main, but I'd rather start it in the side. I'm also not a huge fan of the switch to Abzan in the board, it feels like this should either just be Abzan (which is possible) or we should stick to our colors. There are plenty of powerful options in Golgari that we can use to try the deck out. I like the idea of potentially making the deck more aggressive out of the board, with maybe some Zulaport Cuththroats and Nantuko Husks so if we're supposed to be the beatdown we can go lower curve. There's my initial thoughts on the archetype, super excited to tinker with this deck.
NWO refers ONLY to commons and their complexity. NWO has no bearing on whether they would reprint fetches in the core set.
That being said, they did specifically point to life loss being something newer players dislike as a reason they weren't going to print painlands in the core anymore, and fetches not only include life loss, but also are more confusing than pain lands. It could happen, but I would think it more likely to see them in an expert expansion.