I'm more interested in MARO's connection to the planeswalkers... it could be his usual ambiguous type of answer for things that have no preconceived intentions, but it does beg the question: are the planeswalkers under some form of control, or do they have some specific freedom that others (whose eyes don't illuminate) don't have?
We learned in the last story that Bontu was the only of those five Amonket gods that wasn't tweaked and deceived by Bolas. The other gods were adorned with the golden masks.
Is there a connection or similarities about the planeswalkers' sparks (and the light from their eyes)?
I like Glorybringer in conjunction with Soul-Scar Mage in that effect which the exert damage causes scarab triggers. I guess I'd previously thought that Glorybringer was overkill, but synergistically, it's awesome on top of the pure value the dragon itself brings. Cool idea. I want to try it.
I've been testing live, 1v1, with familiar players. No MTGO, or tournament runs. So, this deck probably has less than 40 games under its belt.
With that said, I'm still having a lot of fun playing it, and I think that's what keeps me tuning it.
I really like adding Sweltering Suns, I was initially not for it, due to how it resets any token development I've gotten out, but you may be on to something with its inclusion. It's appealing particularly due to cycling. Throne of the God-Pharaoh has actually been really potent. Tokens en masse, it's not unrealistic to double whatever damage gets through, and that, or tapping Initiates for mana, amounts to a lot in just a turn or two.
As for Decimate Beetle, that card was originally a backbone of this build, and I continue to drop copies every time I re-evaluate the deck. Honestly, that's proven to be a pretty disappointing card choice.
I'm going to roll a few copies of Sweltering Suns for a while. (Maybe 2 main/2 side?) I'll report back.
Any other observations or ideas?
Yes, on both accounts. Nest Of Scarabs really fuels a hard to match go-wide strategy. However, it can take a tew turns to get going, and then a few more to really start churning out advantage. I think early board interaction is essential to keep things in control without cutting into the our life total too much before stalling the board with creature tokens.
I look at this deck working on three fronts. The first, and main gameplan, is to churn out snakes and insects. That can take some time.
The second, IMO, is to control the opponents board with -1/-1 counters and dome direct damage to creatures until they've run out of gas and are top-decking for answers. By that time, we will likely have some decent attackers/blockers to let the first game plan roll out.
The third, and through testing what seems to be fairly consistent, is a war of attrition with Bontu, the Glorified and Throne of the God-Pharaoh. This third game plan takes the main token strategy to really have effect, but it does make the race a lot quicker and less reliant on an all-out flood of token creatures to attack for lethal. Simply tapping creatures, or using tokens to sacrifice to Bontu and then attack with the God has proven, for me, to be a simple set-up with high a payoff rate.
As noted in my previous post, the main problem I'm finding with this deck is getting the plan(s) to roll out fast enough before being too far behind on life. So, the sideboard is still in flux to optimize conconsistency and hold the board against different strategies and different size/speeds of opponent's threats.
All in all, when this deck rolls out according to plan, it takes over relatively fast. It seems to work similarly to mono-black or B/W Zombies decks, and has a generally favorable match-up against Zombies. It holds thinks like Mardu at bay with it's wall of tokens, (including those darn snakes with deathtouch), and rallies up really well as the Marvel player is trying to set-up and spin for the win.
There is still some gaps in the effectiveness of this deck, but I'm having good results (about 70% when not mana flooded--manascrew doesn't seem to be an issue with the Channeler Initiate around).
May favorite opening plays are:
Turn-1 Mountain, Soul-Scar Mage
Turn-2 Forest (or Blooming Marsh), Channeler Initiate
Turn-3 Swamp, Nest of Scarabs
from there it's good stuff, and most of the deck plays out -1/-1 counters to some extent (the soul-scar on the battlefield basically turns all damage into insects as added value.
I've found that multiple Nest of Scarabs is never a bad thing as long as you can afford the time to use a turn playing them.
Also, the full playset of Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons has not really blocked me out even in spite of her legendary status.
There's plenty more I could say about awesome interactions and wild synergies in this deck, but mostly, it can be really fun to play and watch how opponents respond to the board going out of control very, very quickly.
Happy to hear any more thoughts from those who are taking decks like this to the table.
There's a lot of balancing going on for this deck, nithing however that seems to make the idea competitive. I've been working on making nest/hapatra/x(-1/-1) work since a really vague idea came to mind after the 2nd week of Amonket.
I've been following this thread for about three weeks, waiting for someone to look into (and possibly test) more answers from Jund spells/aggro as a plan before setting up nests.
I think there is a good backbone in B/G/r, but it demands intensive and thoughtful Mulligans to expertly pilot a solid game plan into turn 5.
The perfect draws (and there are a few) revolve around either controlling the board until blocking with insects/snakes is a non-issue, or surviving enough damage until the board is out of control in our favor.
If we're talking Heliod, Heliud. It's worth bring to light the corrolatio between Kytheon Iora and Iona, Shield of Emeria... What if perhaps Gideon were to "die" fighting the Eldrazi on Zendikar (as planeswalkers "die"...) Is there a possible connection between this Soldier and this Angel?
Actually,
echelon-house, that is the most well-thought out and interesting speculation that I've ever heard.
Well founded, and worth holding onto. But don't hold on to seeing it play out, unless Bolas & the Eldrazi pull some real multi-planar nastiness, Ugin is not going to un-do all the work he's done on Tarkir (no matter how ready he may be...)
Bant is not a plane. Bant exists as a part of Alara.
Worth Nothing.
EDIT: Response to many posters leading speculatuion from Gideon's first 'walk. Yes, he may have spent time and become his 'true' self (as we know him) with the Bant, but we then can only confirm a stint in Alara, lest to be seen in any sort of Bant influence in the set itself...
Thanks. I have two coming in the mail. Waiting...
I did just opt out the Ripper and the (2) Aspirants for +1 Impact Tremors, +1 Champion, and D.L. Kolaghan.
It's not meant to be budget, but it's not an all-in build yet. Still figuring out what really works and what is only helpful some of the time. I keep a lot of decks simultaneously, and get spread thin on good spells occasionally. Fetches... yeah, for some reason I have a hard time dropping the coin for fetch lands for all of my decks, so in that sense there's a budget cap. In other regards, I don't like keeping 3 or 4 of large-CMC spells in the maindeck which is why there are some duplicates/multiples sideboarded--letting the deck play its same game, but accentuating the aspects that lead to a win on a case-by case basis.
I agree, some cards in the R/B deck need more presence. Any insights in particular? I think Mogis works pretty well, but mana cost? the deck suits itself to a fast roll-out... I don't really love the Aspirants, or the Ripper--maybe more Brawlers & Shadopwspears?
Also, looking for something that gives bonus to Warriors, not splashing white. I don't know of anything (excluding Raiders' Spoils). Anything come to mind?
Fig, you said it about the trouble with Waste Not... once our opponent has dropped their hand and is essentially top-decking for the rest of the game, at sorcery speed it's difficult to keep anything off the battlefield--or keep them from powering good spells through in the meantime. Not to mention, if we keep forcing their discard with smaller spells (Duress, Despise, Cruelty, Secret, etc...) we end up as surprised as our opponent when their answers come to call; whether creature or spell, we're at the mercy of their deck. For that reason, I think the Red Mana beatdown is the difference between running a winning discard deck and a fingers-crossed-good-in-theory deck.
I spent some weeks running a combination of strong discard decks with an emphasis on Waste Not, only to find inconsistencies and late-game trouble. Nonetheless, when the hand rolls out in our favor and an early game (T2 WN, T3 DD) leads to a heavy creature discard from our oppenent, the game ends pretty quickly, but it was hard to rely on. I found tutoring essential--either by way of Lily or Sidisi, but even then we're looking to T6 before the action gets hot. A few strategies in, either kill-switch with Become Immense & Marang River Prowler, or continuous discard with Ashiok and Phenax + Phenax's Disciple, in conjunction with other heavy-discard-reliable spells... I realized:
The most consistent win-condition for this deck is beatdown/overwhelm (while keeping the opponent off-guard and off-balance...)
I got into planeswalkers to ramp toward a good finishing stroke, and to keep the opponent struggling to deal with my spells/life and the loyalty of multiple PWs. Below are two decks, a Sultai-discard edition; and a deck which seems to perform consistently leading to absolute board control or lethal damage by turns 7 or 8.
There are a lot of strange interactions here (as a result of trying out what worked and adapting to what didn't)--
I found pretty quickly that it became necessary to at leats have a plan for when opponents get a board state and we're still working for it. That's where a lot of the removal comes from. It was important to have low-mana creatures, chump blockers (Sultai Emissary who does two blocks for the price of one, yet at the risk of manifesting something really important), and instant-speed removal (Silumgar's Assassin). The Void Snares are great for putting what we want back in the opponent's hand, and at the cost of one blue mana we can afford to cast the second (discard) spell immediately afterward. Those also work in the instance that we manifest a PW or Waste Not...
All-in-all, this deck does a number on aggro decks, while taking a considerale amount of damage; it also plays through control deck pretty well, keeping a consistent flow of small threats and spot-removal in the works. The most troubling aspect of this deck is getting all the way to the finish line.
Therefore, the Kolaghan (Dark Diplomacy) deck works a lot faster and manages to lead to a brutal win (if not a frustrating match-up for the opponent) almost every time.
I think the deck speaks for itself. It is damage oriented, and our discard engine works to further in that effort while building a offensive board state.
I'm thinking about upping the Impact Tremors, throwing an Outpost Siege in there, and maybe bringing back the Whip for just such occasions.
This deck has been one of my main projects lately with the new DTK tech, and it really makes me excited to see others posting about what they're doing to bring this kind of meta to standard, it deviates from the common-trends and has A LOT of wasteland flavor, in my opinion. I'd love to hear thoughts, or new ideas.
Absolutely. I keep two in the SB, and it was won a few matches with a swift turn of the mana-base. Half the fun is the surprise factor. I've found it sitting in my hand a few times, but isn't a problem. I just can't seem to devote a slot in the main for it... Let us know if you find it helpful.
In a manifest-machine I've been working on, I found a pretty interesting interaction with Trail of Mystery, Ethereal Ambush, Formless Nurturing, Wildcall, Write into Being and Roaring Primadox, Temur War Shaman, and Temur Sabertooth...
The above posts recognize Sagu Mauler or Deathmist Raptor as eventual win-con(s). Those are absolutley viable. Some others above have mentioned the Whisperwood overwhelm possibilities; also, totally viable. But, there's something happening in my matches with Primadox, Shaman, and Sabertooth.
Specifically, manifesting creatures is fast. Really fast. BUT subject to the all-too-common occurance of manifesting something that you'd rather have in your hand (i.e. a non-creature spell). In this case, you can bring it right back (although revealing it...) but there it is, to be played as you would rather have had it before its temporary life as a creature. In this way, we keep our morph/megamorph creatures on the battlefeild to do their thing, and don't lose our spells in the process. Not to mention letting Sabertooth become indestructable, or just keeping Primadox on the battlefield.
The real fun begins with Trail of Mystery and Temur War Shaman's ability. Turn it face up, +2/+2, fight, and enjoy the new life of your ready-to-rumble creatures, dancing on the fallen opponents unsuspecting creature(s).
The win-con I've found most appealing, and really consistent, is when a good army of manifested creatures are set; and thanks to ToM we've not missed a land-drop, or perhaps caught up along the way, there's an abundance of mana to use to flip with... flip the creatures onto a Stampeding Elk Herd formidable, trample, win; or bring about a HUGE Hooded Hydra, or a Monstrous Nemesis of Mortals.
At that point, there's a lot for the opponent to deal with, and in the meantime we've been manifesting creatures faster than the opponent can attack/remove them, keeping the ones we want on the battlefield as blockers, or late-game finishers; taking the ones we have other plans for back into our hand.
There's some room to tighten it up, but I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on what might work in this direction.
The decklist above seems legit. I'm sure it wins matches when it's rolling in the right order, or perhaps if you're patient enough... a lot of the removal in your main almost assures a little bit of time to put together the devotion you need to get rolling. However, it feels like a Gary-reliant win, or a really long-winded beat down that hopes the opponent doesn't board wipe or bring something to the party your zombie's can't tangle with.
I see a lot of potential for more burn, as noted by philosofer. The construction as it stands feels very black, a splash or red just to spice it up. Personally, I love the flavor, but wonder if there isn't a more advantageous way to use the red mana, or accentuate the red flavor of your zombie attackers?
The SB is really pretty interesting; I love the In Garruk's Wake, but I feel like with a Zombie beatdown, if you're in a position to have that much mana to spend, and need to use it, you REALLY need to use it--likely there's a way to keep from letting the game go that long...
I had a similar idea, tested and tested, after breaking into some of the new DTK tech, I found a breed of Waste Not that implements warriors as much as zombies (including the deliciously devious Blood-Chins, and ruthlessly savage Mogis's Marauders and well as Mogis himself...) The deck itself works three distinct win-con approaches, but damage and overwhelm are the end result--it can be fast and heart-stopping, or slow and torturous, for the opponent, and as you mentioned in your post works through a control heavy deck without much problem. The pain keeps coming faster than most control players can respond, or simply outlasts their viable spell casting until the board state is in our favor.
The point being, there's a lot to work from if damage is what you're aiming at, and splashing red is like opening the floodgates of damage possibilities; unfortunately, the devotion-engine tactic is going to work better if you hold onto mono-B.
If red-mana damage is something you're interested in exploring, (perhaps it suits your local meta-game? or just your way of punishing the opponent?) and zombies are your tact-of-choice, I'd absolutely look into a few alternatives for using the creatures and even the Whip if that's what you're into, by trying out some Impact Tremors or Outpost Siege, along with the Palace Siege. Check your SB, specifically with the Waste Not--to some degree, that approach is a deck commitment; sideboarding two of those and relying on them to do the job is a long shot.
I've been working (a variation of) this deck pretty thoroughly for a few weeks, not playing mono-black. I had starting in that direction, but found myself vulnerable to big creatures, or direct damage without a way to spurn an offensive in the event of a slow-rolling Waste Not build. I've taken to a B-U control deck with a splash of green. This works a lot like a Sultai Control deck, but with the eventuality of raising an army while milling the opponent's threats and instants. (Once an opponent gets the idea, they are usually apt to discard non-creature cards, no matter how important--when they get the choice of what they're discarding...) Unfortunatly, it's not uncommon in this fast format (Mardu aggro, even some midrange decks Abzan/Jeskai) that the opponent is top-decking, especially after I've milled them a few times; then, building an army off of W.N. get's difficult.
I've brought in planeswalkers as the main offensive engine: Ashiok, Liliana, and Garruk. Each of these PW's has a huge impact on the game, and their mana costs reflect how effective they are at certain points of the game. Ashiok, low mana cost, helps me exile their library, opening up for casting opponents creatures while I set up with the Waste Not, Liliana's tutor ability helps pull W.N. to the top deck if I can't get my hands on one early, and if for some reason the game is going long, Garruk does the job on offense to finish. It's uncommon I get to the point of needing Garruk's help, but he's worked as that anchor and finished a few games where my damage-taken was getting scary.
I've found that this is a deck where I have to be ready to lose some life early, and if after I've been cut to 10 or less, a whip or at least a solid board presence stops that hemmoraging.
All that said, I believe in this deck, because it's a great way to keep an opponent off-guard, and it's really quite fun to watch happen when the proverbial undead hit the fan.
I'm still looking for some crucial tempo elements to keep the early life-lost to a minimum (you never know when a dragon--or worse, a dragonspeaker) might sweep in to finish in a couple turns from the air, and I like your use of Despise & Duress.
I've focused on using removal to keep the board in my favor, and counters when I have to--(Void Snare is cheap, and let's me know what I will force them to discard in that turn, if I need a token and want to get rid of thier Bomb creature)--still working with what counter/removals are the most effective and reliable.
Consistency has been my other issue, which has led me trying different values of Dark Deal, Rakshasa's Secret, and Tasigur's Cruelty, even working with Dark Diplomacy has been effective with Sultai Emissary.
I'll post my most effective build below. Happy to get any feedback or thoughts about the strengths/wekanesses of the deck.
This deck is pretty spread out, as far as card-variation goes; that likely has a lot to do with the inconsistency issues. I've chosen to rely pretty heavily on cards that allow me to scry, or some variation of Tutor (pulling from library or graveyard, respectively). The sideboard is designed to let me adjust really specifically: bolstering in the air, stretching the game (lifelink), letting the deck do what it does best, or making plays on specific opposing decks/strategies.
We learned in the last story that Bontu was the only of those five Amonket gods that wasn't tweaked and deceived by Bolas. The other gods were adorned with the golden masks.
Is there a connection or similarities about the planeswalkers' sparks (and the light from their eyes)?
With that said, I'm still having a lot of fun playing it, and I think that's what keeps me tuning it.
I really like adding Sweltering Suns, I was initially not for it, due to how it resets any token development I've gotten out, but you may be on to something with its inclusion. It's appealing particularly due to cycling.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh has actually been really potent. Tokens en masse, it's not unrealistic to double whatever damage gets through, and that, or tapping Initiates for mana, amounts to a lot in just a turn or two.
As for Decimate Beetle, that card was originally a backbone of this build, and I continue to drop copies every time I re-evaluate the deck. Honestly, that's proven to be a pretty disappointing card choice.
I'm going to roll a few copies of Sweltering Suns for a while. (Maybe 2 main/2 side?) I'll report back.
Any other observations or ideas?
Nest Of Scarabs really fuels a hard to match go-wide strategy. However, it can take a tew turns to get going, and then a few more to really start churning out advantage. I think early board interaction is essential to keep things in control without cutting into the our life total too much before stalling the board with creature tokens.
I look at this deck working on three fronts. The first, and main gameplan, is to churn out snakes and insects. That can take some time.
The second, IMO, is to control the opponents board with -1/-1 counters and dome direct damage to creatures until they've run out of gas and are top-decking for answers. By that time, we will likely have some decent attackers/blockers to let the first game plan roll out.
The third, and through testing what seems to be fairly consistent, is a war of attrition with Bontu, the Glorified and Throne of the God-Pharaoh. This third game plan takes the main token strategy to really have effect, but it does make the race a lot quicker and less reliant on an all-out flood of token creatures to attack for lethal. Simply tapping creatures, or using tokens to sacrifice to Bontu and then attack with the God has proven, for me, to be a simple set-up with high a payoff rate.
This is a build that I have working:
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
4 Channeler Initiate
4 Soulstinger
2 Bontu, the Glorified
1 Decimator Beetle
Spells
4 Nest of Scarabs
4 Splendid Agony
2 Diabolic Tutor
2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh
2 Magma Spray
1 Deem Worthy
1 Stinging Shot
2 Foul Orchard
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Sheltered Thicket
7 Swamp
7 Forest
5 Mountain
2 Decimator Beetle
2 Manticorfe of the Gauntlet
2 Heart-Piercer Manticore
2 Insult//Injury
1 Magma Spray
1 Cartouche of Ambition
1 Trial of Ambition
1 Trial of Zeal
1 Baleful Ammit
1 Plague Belcher
1 Exemplar of Strength
As noted in my previous post, the main problem I'm finding with this deck is getting the plan(s) to roll out fast enough before being too far behind on life. So, the sideboard is still in flux to optimize conconsistency and hold the board against different strategies and different size/speeds of opponent's threats.
All in all, when this deck rolls out according to plan, it takes over relatively fast. It seems to work similarly to mono-black or B/W Zombies decks, and has a generally favorable match-up against Zombies. It holds thinks like Mardu at bay with it's wall of tokens, (including those darn snakes with deathtouch), and rallies up really well as the Marvel player is trying to set-up and spin for the win.
There is still some gaps in the effectiveness of this deck, but I'm having good results (about 70% when not mana flooded--manascrew doesn't seem to be an issue with the Channeler Initiate around).
May favorite opening plays are:
Turn-1 Mountain, Soul-Scar Mage
Turn-2 Forest (or Blooming Marsh), Channeler Initiate
Turn-3 Swamp, Nest of Scarabs
from there it's good stuff, and most of the deck plays out -1/-1 counters to some extent (the soul-scar on the battlefield basically turns all damage into insects as added value.
otherwise,
Turn-1 Forest
Turn-2 Swamp (or Blooming Marsh), Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
Turn-3 Mountain, Nest of Scarabs
from which, the token plan really plays out hard when Channeler Initiates come down; or basically anything else.
I've found that multiple Nest of Scarabs is never a bad thing as long as you can afford the time to use a turn playing them.
Also, the full playset of Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons has not really blocked me out even in spite of her legendary status.
There's plenty more I could say about awesome interactions and wild synergies in this deck, but mostly, it can be really fun to play and watch how opponents respond to the board going out of control very, very quickly.
Happy to hear any more thoughts from those who are taking decks like this to the table.
I've been following this thread for about three weeks, waiting for someone to look into (and possibly test) more answers from Jund spells/aggro as a plan before setting up nests.
I think there is a good backbone in B/G/r, but it demands intensive and thoughtful Mulligans to expertly pilot a solid game plan into turn 5.
The perfect draws (and there are a few) revolve around either controlling the board until blocking with insects/snakes is a non-issue, or surviving enough damage until the board is out of control in our favor.
echelon-house, that is the most well-thought out and interesting speculation that I've ever heard.
Well founded, and worth holding onto. But don't hold on to seeing it play out, unless Bolas & the Eldrazi pull some real multi-planar nastiness, Ugin is not going to un-do all the work he's done on Tarkir (no matter how ready he may be...)
Worth Nothing.
EDIT: Response to many posters leading speculatuion from Gideon's first 'walk. Yes, he may have spent time and become his 'true' self (as we know him) with the Bant, but we then can only confirm a stint in Alara, lest to be seen in any sort of Bant influence in the set itself...
I did just opt out the Ripper and the (2) Aspirants for +1 Impact Tremors, +1 Champion, and D.L. Kolaghan.
Playing St. Constructed tonight; see how it goes.
I agree, some cards in the R/B deck need more presence. Any insights in particular? I think Mogis works pretty well, but mana cost? the deck suits itself to a fast roll-out... I don't really love the Aspirants, or the Ripper--maybe more Brawlers & Shadopwspears?
Also, looking for something that gives bonus to Warriors, not splashing white. I don't know of anything (excluding Raiders' Spoils). Anything come to mind?
I spent some weeks running a combination of strong discard decks with an emphasis on Waste Not, only to find inconsistencies and late-game trouble. Nonetheless, when the hand rolls out in our favor and an early game (T2 WN, T3 DD) leads to a heavy creature discard from our oppenent, the game ends pretty quickly, but it was hard to rely on. I found tutoring essential--either by way of Lily or Sidisi, but even then we're looking to T6 before the action gets hot. A few strategies in, either kill-switch with Become Immense & Marang River Prowler, or continuous discard with Ashiok and Phenax + Phenax's Disciple, in conjunction with other heavy-discard-reliable spells... I realized:
The most consistent win-condition for this deck is beatdown/overwhelm (while keeping the opponent off-guard and off-balance...)
I got into planeswalkers to ramp toward a good finishing stroke, and to keep the opponent struggling to deal with my spells/life and the loyalty of multiple PWs. Below are two decks, a Sultai-discard edition; and a deck which seems to perform consistently leading to absolute board control or lethal damage by turns 7 or 8.
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
Creatures
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1 Risen Executioner
2 Rakshasa Gravecaller
3 Silumgar Assassin
2 Sultai Emissary
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
Spells
4 Waste Not
3 Dark Deal
3 Mind Rot
2 Ultimate Price
1 Rakshasa's Secret
1 Tasigur's Cruelty
2 Damnable Pact
1 Weight of the Underworld
1 Taigam's Scheming
2 Void Snare
1 Death Wind
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
3 Jungle Hollow
11 Swamp
2 Island
1 Rakshasa Gravecaller
1 Risen Executioner
1 Necromaster Dragon
1 Phenax, God of Deception
1 Disciple of Phenax
1 Walking Corpse
1 Tasigur's Cruelty
1 Weight of the Underworld
1 Crux of Fate
1 The Chain Veil
1 Corpseweft
2 Fascination
1 Molting Snakeskin
1 Void Snare
There are a lot of strange interactions here (as a result of trying out what worked and adapting to what didn't)--
I found pretty quickly that it became necessary to at leats have a plan for when opponents get a board state and we're still working for it. That's where a lot of the removal comes from. It was important to have low-mana creatures, chump blockers (Sultai Emissary who does two blocks for the price of one, yet at the risk of manifesting something really important), and instant-speed removal (Silumgar's Assassin). The Void Snares are great for putting what we want back in the opponent's hand, and at the cost of one blue mana we can afford to cast the second (discard) spell immediately afterward. Those also work in the instance that we manifest a PW or Waste Not...
All-in-all, this deck does a number on aggro decks, while taking a considerale amount of damage; it also plays through control deck pretty well, keeping a consistent flow of small threats and spot-removal in the works. The most troubling aspect of this deck is getting all the way to the finish line.
Therefore, the Kolaghan (Dark Diplomacy) deck works a lot faster and manages to lead to a brutal win (if not a frustrating match-up for the opponent) almost every time.
1 Mogis, God of Slaughter
1 Mogis's Marauder
1 Brutal Hordechief
1 Tymaret, The Murder King
2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
3 Blood-Chin Rager
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
1 Battle Brawler
2 Kolaghan Aspirant
1 Mardu Shadowspear
1 Ruthless Ripper
Planeswalker
1 Liliana Vess
Spells
4 Waste Not
4 Diplomacy of the Wastes
2 Dark Deal
2 Mind Rot
2 Despise
1 Duress
1 Palace Siege
2 Ultimate Price
3 Foul-Tongue Shriek
1 Impact Tremors
4 Temple of Malice
4 Bloodfell Caves
7 Swamp
5 Mountain
1 Gray Mechant of Asphodel
1 Blood-Chin Rager
1 Blood-Chin Fanatic
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
2 Mardu Skullhunter
2 Duress
2 Despise
1 Dark Deal
1 Spite of Mogis
2 Damnable Pact
1 Crux of Fate
I think the deck speaks for itself. It is damage oriented, and our discard engine works to further in that effort while building a offensive board state.
I'm thinking about upping the Impact Tremors, throwing an Outpost Siege in there, and maybe bringing back the Whip for just such occasions.
This deck has been one of my main projects lately with the new DTK tech, and it really makes me excited to see others posting about what they're doing to bring this kind of meta to standard, it deviates from the common-trends and has A LOT of wasteland flavor, in my opinion. I'd love to hear thoughts, or new ideas.
The above posts recognize Sagu Mauler or Deathmist Raptor as eventual win-con(s). Those are absolutley viable. Some others above have mentioned the Whisperwood overwhelm possibilities; also, totally viable. But, there's something happening in my matches with Primadox, Shaman, and Sabertooth.
Specifically, manifesting creatures is fast. Really fast. BUT subject to the all-too-common occurance of manifesting something that you'd rather have in your hand (i.e. a non-creature spell). In this case, you can bring it right back (although revealing it...) but there it is, to be played as you would rather have had it before its temporary life as a creature. In this way, we keep our morph/megamorph creatures on the battlefeild to do their thing, and don't lose our spells in the process. Not to mention letting Sabertooth become indestructable, or just keeping Primadox on the battlefield.
The real fun begins with Trail of Mystery and Temur War Shaman's ability. Turn it face up, +2/+2, fight, and enjoy the new life of your ready-to-rumble creatures, dancing on the fallen opponents unsuspecting creature(s).
The win-con I've found most appealing, and really consistent, is when a good army of manifested creatures are set; and thanks to ToM we've not missed a land-drop, or perhaps caught up along the way, there's an abundance of mana to use to flip with... flip the creatures onto a Stampeding Elk Herd formidable, trample, win; or bring about a HUGE Hooded Hydra, or a Monstrous Nemesis of Mortals.
At that point, there's a lot for the opponent to deal with, and in the meantime we've been manifesting creatures faster than the opponent can attack/remove them, keeping the ones we want on the battlefield as blockers, or late-game finishers; taking the ones we have other plans for back into our hand.
There's some room to tighten it up, but I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on what might work in this direction.
I see a lot of potential for more burn, as noted by philosofer. The construction as it stands feels very black, a splash or red just to spice it up. Personally, I love the flavor, but wonder if there isn't a more advantageous way to use the red mana, or accentuate the red flavor of your zombie attackers?
The SB is really pretty interesting; I love the In Garruk's Wake, but I feel like with a Zombie beatdown, if you're in a position to have that much mana to spend, and need to use it, you REALLY need to use it--likely there's a way to keep from letting the game go that long...
I had a similar idea, tested and tested, after breaking into some of the new DTK tech, I found a breed of Waste Not that implements warriors as much as zombies (including the deliciously devious Blood-Chins, and ruthlessly savage Mogis's Marauders and well as Mogis himself...) The deck itself works three distinct win-con approaches, but damage and overwhelm are the end result--it can be fast and heart-stopping, or slow and torturous, for the opponent, and as you mentioned in your post works through a control heavy deck without much problem. The pain keeps coming faster than most control players can respond, or simply outlasts their viable spell casting until the board state is in our favor.
The point being, there's a lot to work from if damage is what you're aiming at, and splashing red is like opening the floodgates of damage possibilities; unfortunately, the devotion-engine tactic is going to work better if you hold onto mono-B.
If red-mana damage is something you're interested in exploring, (perhaps it suits your local meta-game? or just your way of punishing the opponent?) and zombies are your tact-of-choice, I'd absolutely look into a few alternatives for using the creatures and even the Whip if that's what you're into, by trying out some Impact Tremors or Outpost Siege, along with the Palace Siege. Check your SB, specifically with the Waste Not--to some degree, that approach is a deck commitment; sideboarding two of those and relying on them to do the job is a long shot.
I've brought in planeswalkers as the main offensive engine: Ashiok, Liliana, and Garruk. Each of these PW's has a huge impact on the game, and their mana costs reflect how effective they are at certain points of the game. Ashiok, low mana cost, helps me exile their library, opening up for casting opponents creatures while I set up with the Waste Not, Liliana's tutor ability helps pull W.N. to the top deck if I can't get my hands on one early, and if for some reason the game is going long, Garruk does the job on offense to finish. It's uncommon I get to the point of needing Garruk's help, but he's worked as that anchor and finished a few games where my damage-taken was getting scary.
I've found that this is a deck where I have to be ready to lose some life early, and if after I've been cut to 10 or less, a whip or at least a solid board presence stops that hemmoraging.
All that said, I believe in this deck, because it's a great way to keep an opponent off-guard, and it's really quite fun to watch happen when the proverbial undead hit the fan.
I'm still looking for some crucial tempo elements to keep the early life-lost to a minimum (you never know when a dragon--or worse, a dragonspeaker) might sweep in to finish in a couple turns from the air, and I like your use of Despise & Duress.
I've focused on using removal to keep the board in my favor, and counters when I have to--(Void Snare is cheap, and let's me know what I will force them to discard in that turn, if I need a token and want to get rid of thier Bomb creature)--still working with what counter/removals are the most effective and reliable.
Consistency has been my other issue, which has led me trying different values of Dark Deal, Rakshasa's Secret, and Tasigur's Cruelty, even working with Dark Diplomacy has been effective with Sultai Emissary.
I'll post my most effective build below. Happy to get any feedback or thoughts about the strengths/wekanesses of the deck.
3 Waste Not
3 Dark Deal
4 Void Snare
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Dissolve
2 Molting Snakeskin
2 Weight of the Underworld
2 Murderous Cut
2 Reach of Shadows
2 Taigam's Scheming
1 Rakshasa's Secret
1 Tasigur's Cruelty
1 The Chain Veil
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Paragon of Open Graves
1 Walking Corpse
2 Sultai Emissary
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
Lands (22)
2 Temple of Deceit
3 Dismal Backwater
3 Jungle Hollow
9 Swamp
4 Island
1 Forest
1 Phenax, God of Deception
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Sibsig Muckdraggers
1 Shambling Attendants
2 Eternal Thirst
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Archetype of Finality
1 Cranial Archive
2 Silumgar Assassin
This deck is pretty spread out, as far as card-variation goes; that likely has a lot to do with the inconsistency issues. I've chosen to rely pretty heavily on cards that allow me to scry, or some variation of Tutor (pulling from library or graveyard, respectively). The sideboard is designed to let me adjust really specifically: bolstering in the air, stretching the game (lifelink), letting the deck do what it does best, or making plays on specific opposing decks/strategies.
I'm excited for DoT, there's some potential for strange interactions; I like Deadly Wanderings in some regards, and playing around with taking a step back to an earlier version of this deck I started fixing on--additions: Villainous Wealth & Hedonist's Trove.
I'm sure to find Risen Executioner a place in this deck.
Any love for Silumgar's Monument out there? Necromaster Dragon?