How are people dealing with mono red? I tested today and in 6 games I went 2-4. Post board games I never saw O-ring though, and 2 of them were lost due to 10+ damage shrines.
If you are asking because you expect mono red to be a large part of the metagame in your FNM or tournament you are attending, then having your deck configured to deal with aggro game 1 is going to help.
Something along the lines of Christian Valenti's deck from Nashville, SCG series is going to help.
MD
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
3 O Ring
1 Purge (This has been performing very well for me at the moment)
X other relevant removal, leaks, etc
SB
1 Wurmcoil
1 Purge
2 Revoke Existence (depending)
Purge is big game at the moment for hitting phoenix since that is a nightmare in the builds splashing for Kessig Wolf-Run. Also comes in handy in mirrors with little Lils.
I think the key thing people forget is you can't really build a deck that beats all decks. You really need to focus on what you expect the metagame to be and configure your build to beat that expectation. Sure you can try and 'next level' by out metagaming the metagame decks but I usually leave that up to Chapin
Lord of the Unreal's ability does not target so it will not cause your Illusions sacrifice ability to trigger.
The Lord gives your Illusions Hexproof so opponents can't target them with spells and abilities. That being said, the Illusion sac trigger will still fire if you target one of your Illusions with a spell you control
How does Topr Orb work with "champion" creatures (Changeling Hero) or cards with "vanishing" (Lost Auramancers) since both of those effects have a reminder text with "entrs the battlefield" effects????
Check the reminder text again There is a difference between 'As <creature> enters the battlefield and 'When <creature> enters the battlefield'.
The 'as' happens at time of resolution of the spell so isn't triggered by an enter the battlefield (ETB) trigger. This means that Torpor Orb doesn't effect it.
The 'when' triggers once the creature has ETB so Torpor Orb will suppress this.
As per the question... Vanishing works exactly the same. Champion does not trigger so you do not need to sacrifice a creature.
If you cast it in response to their splinter twin, their splinter fizzles. If you cast it in response to them tapping to activate you steal it, make a million dudes in the end step, and kill them next turn. My onlt problem with it is that it costs 3. A good player (or at least I hope there are good players out there) will tap an untapped land with their EoT exarch, which means in order for this to work you need to keep 4 mana open. That almost literally means I'm giving up a turn so they might play it. Again though a good player will notice you leaving 4 mana up as a big red flag to not play their combo until they have a response to your response. I'd rather have Demystify against them. I realize Demystify is really specific but to be honest the only decks I think I have a hard time against are ones that can insta-win combo out of nowhere (Valakut and Twin). I haven't needed other cards in any other matchups as much as I needed cards in those.
side note: I may still end up having Act in the side as a replacement for my leonin arbiters against Valakut!
How does Splinter Twin fizzle if you are casting Act of Aggression in response to Twin? Exarch doesn't leave play when you gain control of it so Twin targeting Exarch is still valid.
As an additional note, make sure when you are making the dudes in their end step that you choose to leave Exarch tapped so they don't get it back untapped and be able to block
I think GFTT deserves a spot because if an opponent controls a Spellskite to keep removal off their titans, GFTT allows you to remove the titan without hassle. Sure you could run Dismember and kill the Spellskite but you'd still have to deal with the titan with a magnet or some other form of removal plus Dismember doesn't kill titans. Having said that, I believe that a split between Dismember and GFTT works best.
I understand that sometimes the fact you can't target the Spellskite with GFTT is a good thing but if you are trying to win via Tezz activations, then you have no choice but to get rid of it or you are fighting a loosing battle (Spellskite can steal your Tezz -1 ability)
I've been lurking here for at least a week now as well, since becoming a victim of the Caw-Blade bannings, figuring this time I'd want to actually tap out for my four-mana planeswalker, possibly earlier than turn four. As my tweaking continued I've been knocking into all sorts of issues, such as whether I should want to be waiting until turn four to even do it, and wondering if there is any measure or means that could get me to possibly wait it out even longer.
The list I have sleeved right now is probably not what I want it to be, the numbers of things probably gives that away. I'm still waiting for additional copies of what I'm not using that I don't own so I can tweak much better, but we're going to have to look at what it is now before I convert it into either a Forgemaster (which is what I'd prefer in the long game) or an Aggro/Blade-centric build, either of which comes at the cost of our utility/disruption spells, which could be our artifacts if we could only give them flash - and the benefit would still not be entirely clear to me.
It probably seems all over the place, probably because it is, but hopefully it's covering enough of the problem cards that are out there. I was running Mirran Crusader in my Caw-Blade and found that getting around Dismember is pretty groovy, and was hoping Puresteel Paladin and I could find a deck but so far it hasn't happened. Adding black for Tezzeret definitely makes me want to run discard, instead of Gitaxian Probe (it'd be too much with Preordain I think) or something like Tezzeret's Gambit, neither of which seem like ultimate solutions to anything. I understand we should be grinding things out more, but taking a turn to drop a planeswalker makes it very hard to play U/B attrition.
The other cards I've been considering are Etched Champion alongside Vault Skirge to make the Sword package relevant, the whole reason I thought I wanted to play Tezzeret in the first place, but I feel it's more open to disruption than just a wonky mana resource control plan capable of protecting Tezzeret or the heavy finisher that results. Doing the Kuldotha Forgemaster/Blightsteel Colossus into Wurmcoil or Mindslaver plan, is certainly more interesting but I also think more open to disruption (probably not, I'm easy prey to argument). One thing I want to know is what it'd be like without any mana acceleration at all, and not relying on Ratchet Bomb in the main, which actually does make a lot of sense if you have three. I was going to be running Mono Black Control but Phyrexian Obliterator is so linear, alongside even a Mimic Vat/Sheoldred plan, that I've gotta bring the Tezzeret.
Kandjar, I've been watching your lists and am somewhat dismayed to see Phyrexian Obliterator. What do you need him for that's worth the artifact slot? I'd drop Doom Blade, a Metamorph, your Spheres, or possibly one Go for the Throat if you want Spell Pierce in the main while keeping the Surgical Extraction plan intact.
The list doesn't look too bad in my opinion Just a couple of things to think about / to discuss.
You don't want to be playing Go for the throat right now imo. With Cawblade gone, the buzz seems to be around Valakut, mono red and Splinter twin. It seems the general consensus is that Tezzeret is the next best plainswalker. All those things combined means people are going to be playing Spellskite... a lot! This little guy can really ruin your party... esp if you aren't playing the Forgemaster lists. I would either switch the GFTT to Dismember (the targeted removal imo) or to Doom blade. Tumble magnet's should hold off things like Obliterators, Titans, etc.
The other thing is the swords. You don't play that many creatures (without the Tezz -1) and you only have the 1 Inkmoth in your list (the cost of equip + activate of a tarpit is quite prohibitive imo). Maybe they aren't the best use of space?
From what I have play tested, the best 'control' lists are either the Forgemaster lists that pack disruption and then try to EOT into a Blightsteel, Wurmcoil or Mindslaver (soooooo good with everyone playing spellskite right now) or the proliferate lists (closer to your list) that look to poison early game, then control the mid to late game through contagion clasp + magnet, counter magic and draw from baby Jace and gambit. I think Drew Levin had a good base list for this. Imo, your list seems a little stuck between the 2, not playing Forgemaster and the toolbox finishers but then not playing the full compliment of proliferate spells.
I have been playing Tez a fair amount of the past few weeks and this is just what I have found. I may be wrong, but at least these are discussion points
Could you not make the spellbombs Vault Skirge? I realize that the deck is more mid-range than anything but Skirge is still a threat on the board against aggro. Synergy with Tezzeret seems good too.
Well I like how AoA deals with Spellskite problem when solving the Deceiver Exarch combo (which is pretty darn sexy in and of itself and it is good against Valakut Titan (yoink! Bam, you dead!), I do not see it performing all that well as it does not actually kill their combo and it requires that you leave 3 mana open. Beast Within does the same thing, and you should main deck four of them (or 2 dismember 2 beast within in the case of a dark elves build like mine).
The issue for a lot of people is spot removal like Beast Within, Naturalize, etc doesn't work with Spellskite out. Back to Nature is an option but really is only there to specifically deal with that one deck. AoA has multiple applications against titans, etc. Also, it does deal with the combo. It either makes you win with their combo (they don't have Spellskite) or you stop them going off with their own Spellskite (they do have Spellskite).
It's just another option to consider really I have tested it and it seems to be rather good (and not dead in other matchups).
Strange that the RDW player tapped out while his Shrine was on 12!?! I think most players would keep mana open once it hits 4 counters. Just from what I have seen anyway.
Edit:
I'm sure you guys have heard but if not here is an increasingly popular way to deal with the splinter twin combo.
Side in Act of Aggression.
With Splinter Twin on the stack and targeting Deceiver Exarch, use Act of Aggression targeting the Exarch. If no Spellskite is out and it resolves, you steal it, let the Splinter Twin resolve and after 'beginning of EOT' has checked, make eleventyone guys making sure you leave the Exarch tapped when you finish. Turn ends, you give back the Exarch and you have many lads to swing at the face. If Spellskite is out (and lets be honest, it probably will be) they will steal the the Act of Aggression. Let the Act resolve and then you steal the Splinter Twin onto your new Spellskite.
The act is playable for us due to Phyrexian Mana so keep that in mind if you have a lot of Splinter Twin in your area
I think the fact that it shuffles in is kind of inconsequential as you would rarely be looking to draw it again in the late game. It's a tough choice and as you can see I didn't end up choosing
Leyline and 2+ Beloth are needed imo. The ETB of lifegain from the Beloth is superb. Wurmcoil could be nice but I never sided it in against them. It seemed by about turn 4 - 5 they just switch to burn mode against your face so trying to drop a Wurmcoil with no immediate impact on the game seemed a little slow.
I thought about cutting something like LtS but it's effect is just too powerful. 61 cards didn't effect the %'s all that much and it also made my sideboarding plans a little easier with rather round numbers.
Originally I had 4 scout 3 treespeaker but treespeaker is just insane against UW Cawblade or decks that can't interact with it. There were a few games where (once against bant blade and another against UW Caw) where I was able to multiple overrun a turn earlier thanks to a couple of treespeakers, this was also trampling over a batterskull.
Shrines are very good but I think mono red has all the tools to beat us. They turn 1 a goblin guide, turn 2 a shrine and then just burn all our mana dorks. In my opinion, if your meta is full of mono red you wouldn't be playing elves. Against shrines, you have a chance early in the first couple of turns while they play their spikeshot's, haulers, etc as they wont have mana open. But once they switch to burn phase you are going to have to hope they don't keep 3 mountains open at all times.
61 Cards probably isn't optimal but I wanted to maintain at least half my deck creatures to get full value from LtS. The meta seemed to be a fair amount of mono red with Shrines so keep that in mind when making your deck choice for your qualifiers. Everyone else seems to be either the Flores-esk UW Cawblade lists or Splinter Twin and from what I saw, they are more worried about "out thinking" those match-ups rather than worrying about decks like Elves. The deck was fine, was very consistent and always won game 1. Didn't end up using Melira or Effigy but they were just outs to the obvious. I think now is a pretty good time to play Elves, as long as you have a decent plan against mono red as I think this deck will start to get played a hell of a lot more in the coming weeks with it doing well in quite a few National Qualifiers round the globe.
I wasn't a huge fan of VC myself as an infect guy just seems out of place in a beat down deck. Sure it has 'value' in defense but if we are arguing that point then we may as well play Spellskite, etc. However, I am thinking VC is a good choice initially as the 2 heavyweights of NPH meta (caw blade and splinter twin) start playing Spellskite themselves. Against beatdown, Splinter Twin wants to drop their Spellskite turn 2 and soak up a little blocking damage, hijacking VC and AS citp triggers and hijacking Naturalize / Nature's Claim. VC at least gives us a tutorable target without being completely dead (like running Naturalize MD)
Any reason why you are running Naturalize over Nature's Claim? Do you think the life gain is worse than the reduction in cost?
Back to magic after an extended break and was curious as to the Sideboarding strategy for the Elves deck.
I understand the purpose of the most of the functional spots in the SB, just wondering what you take out for each of the matchups.
E.g. Leyline and Baloth in for Red, but what do you take out? LTS?
I have read through quite a few pages but the discussion seems to have long progress from simple sideboard strategies. If anyone can be bothered giving me a quick primer for sideboarding, it would be much appreciated (GodGers perhaps? )
If you are asking because you expect mono red to be a large part of the metagame in your FNM or tournament you are attending, then having your deck configured to deal with aggro game 1 is going to help.
Something along the lines of Christian Valenti's deck from Nashville, SCG series is going to help.
MD
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
3 O Ring
1 Purge (This has been performing very well for me at the moment)
X other relevant removal, leaks, etc
SB
1 Wurmcoil
1 Purge
2 Revoke Existence (depending)
Purge is big game at the moment for hitting phoenix since that is a nightmare in the builds splashing for Kessig Wolf-Run. Also comes in handy in mirrors with little Lils.
I think the key thing people forget is you can't really build a deck that beats all decks. You really need to focus on what you expect the metagame to be and configure your build to beat that expectation. Sure you can try and 'next level' by out metagaming the metagame decks but I usually leave that up to Chapin
The Lord gives your Illusions Hexproof so opponents can't target them with spells and abilities. That being said, the Illusion sac trigger will still fire if you target one of your Illusions with a spell you control
Check the reminder text again
The 'as' happens at time of resolution of the spell so isn't triggered by an enter the battlefield (ETB) trigger. This means that Torpor Orb doesn't effect it.
The 'when' triggers once the creature has ETB so Torpor Orb will suppress this.
As per the question... Vanishing works exactly the same. Champion does not trigger so you do not need to sacrifice a creature.
How does Splinter Twin fizzle if you are casting Act of Aggression in response to Twin? Exarch doesn't leave play when you gain control of it so Twin targeting Exarch is still valid.
As an additional note, make sure when you are making the dudes in their end step that you choose to leave Exarch tapped so they don't get it back untapped and be able to block
I understand that sometimes the fact you can't target the Spellskite with GFTT is a good thing but if you are trying to win via Tezz activations, then you have no choice but to get rid of it or you are fighting a loosing battle (Spellskite can steal your Tezz -1 ability)
The list doesn't look too bad in my opinion
You don't want to be playing Go for the throat right now imo. With Cawblade gone, the buzz seems to be around Valakut, mono red and Splinter twin. It seems the general consensus is that Tezzeret is the next best plainswalker. All those things combined means people are going to be playing Spellskite... a lot! This little guy can really ruin your party... esp if you aren't playing the Forgemaster lists. I would either switch the GFTT to Dismember (the targeted removal imo) or to Doom blade. Tumble magnet's should hold off things like Obliterators, Titans, etc.
The other thing is the swords. You don't play that many creatures (without the Tezz -1) and you only have the 1 Inkmoth in your list (the cost of equip + activate of a tarpit is quite prohibitive imo). Maybe they aren't the best use of space?
From what I have play tested, the best 'control' lists are either the Forgemaster lists that pack disruption and then try to EOT into a Blightsteel, Wurmcoil or Mindslaver (soooooo good with everyone playing spellskite right now) or the proliferate lists (closer to your list) that look to poison early game, then control the mid to late game through contagion clasp + magnet, counter magic and draw from baby Jace and gambit. I think Drew Levin had a good base list for this. Imo, your list seems a little stuck between the 2, not playing Forgemaster and the toolbox finishers but then not playing the full compliment of proliferate spells.
I have been playing Tez a fair amount of the past few weeks and this is just what I have found. I may be wrong, but at least these are discussion points
The issue for a lot of people is spot removal like Beast Within, Naturalize, etc doesn't work with Spellskite out. Back to Nature is an option but really is only there to specifically deal with that one deck. AoA has multiple applications against titans, etc. Also, it does deal with the combo. It either makes you win with their combo (they don't have Spellskite) or you stop them going off with their own Spellskite (they do have Spellskite).
It's just another option to consider really
Strange that the RDW player tapped out while his Shrine was on 12!?! I think most players would keep mana open once it hits 4 counters. Just from what I have seen anyway.
Edit:
I'm sure you guys have heard but if not here is an increasingly popular way to deal with the splinter twin combo.
Side in Act of Aggression.
With Splinter Twin on the stack and targeting Deceiver Exarch, use Act of Aggression targeting the Exarch. If no Spellskite is out and it resolves, you steal it, let the Splinter Twin resolve and after 'beginning of EOT' has checked, make eleventyone guys making sure you leave the Exarch tapped when you finish. Turn ends, you give back the Exarch and you have many lads to swing at the face. If Spellskite is out (and lets be honest, it probably will be) they will steal the the Act of Aggression. Let the Act resolve and then you steal the Splinter Twin onto your new Spellskite.
The act is playable for us due to Phyrexian Mana so keep that in mind if you have a lot of Splinter Twin in your area
Leyline and 2+ Beloth are needed imo. The ETB of lifegain from the Beloth is superb. Wurmcoil could be nice but I never sided it in against them. It seemed by about turn 4 - 5 they just switch to burn mode against your face so trying to drop a Wurmcoil with no immediate impact on the game seemed a little slow.
Originally I had 4 scout 3 treespeaker but treespeaker is just insane against UW Cawblade or decks that can't interact with it. There were a few games where (once against bant blade and another against UW Caw) where I was able to multiple overrun a turn earlier thanks to a couple of treespeakers, this was also trampling over a batterskull.
Shrines are very good but I think mono red has all the tools to beat us. They turn 1 a goblin guide, turn 2 a shrine and then just burn all our mana dorks. In my opinion, if your meta is full of mono red you wouldn't be playing elves. Against shrines, you have a chance early in the first couple of turns while they play their spikeshot's, haulers, etc as they wont have mana open. But once they switch to burn phase you are going to have to hope they don't keep 3 mountains open at all times.
Just qualified for NZ Nationals with this list.
20 Forest
Creatures
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Arbor Elf
3 Copperhorn Scout
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Vengevine
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lead the Stampede
2 Beast Within
4 Leyline of Vitality
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Obstinate Beloth
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Naturalize
1 Brittle Effigy
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
61 Cards probably isn't optimal but I wanted to maintain at least half my deck creatures to get full value from LtS. The meta seemed to be a fair amount of mono red with Shrines so keep that in mind when making your deck choice for your qualifiers. Everyone else seems to be either the Flores-esk UW Cawblade lists or Splinter Twin and from what I saw, they are more worried about "out thinking" those match-ups rather than worrying about decks like Elves. The deck was fine, was very consistent and always won game 1. Didn't end up using Melira or Effigy but they were just outs to the obvious. I think now is a pretty good time to play Elves, as long as you have a decent plan against mono red as I think this deck will start to get played a hell of a lot more in the coming weeks with it doing well in quite a few National Qualifiers round the globe.
I wasn't a huge fan of VC myself as an infect guy just seems out of place in a beat down deck. Sure it has 'value' in defense but if we are arguing that point then we may as well play Spellskite, etc. However, I am thinking VC is a good choice initially as the 2 heavyweights of NPH meta (caw blade and splinter twin) start playing Spellskite themselves. Against beatdown, Splinter Twin wants to drop their Spellskite turn 2 and soak up a little blocking damage, hijacking VC and AS citp triggers and hijacking Naturalize / Nature's Claim. VC at least gives us a tutorable target without being completely dead (like running Naturalize MD)
Any reason why you are running Naturalize over Nature's Claim? Do you think the life gain is worse than the reduction in cost?
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Arbor Elf
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Venevine
3 Copperhorn Scout
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Acidic Slime
1 Viridian Corrupter
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Land (19)
17 Forest
2 Tectonic Edge
That leaves me with 59 cards. The options I am considering are 20 land, -1 GSZ +2 BW, 4 Ezuri or +1 Silver Bullet. Something like Phyrexian Revoker
Back to magic after an extended break and was curious as to the Sideboarding strategy for the Elves deck.
I understand the purpose of the most of the functional spots in the SB, just wondering what you take out for each of the matchups.
E.g. Leyline and Baloth in for Red, but what do you take out? LTS?
I have read through quite a few pages but the discussion seems to have long progress from simple sideboard strategies. If anyone can be bothered giving me a quick primer for sideboarding, it would be much appreciated (GodGers perhaps?
Edit: Using the PTQ Philly list as reference perhaps. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/philadelphia11ptq/0430rockville
Look back a couple of pages. It's been discussed. Also read Shin's Thirst for Knowledge article. It goes through many card choices for the deck.
Does anyone else play with Vendilion Clique? I'm finding them pretty useful.