[cards]
It does, Amardarial is wrong. Very first rules clarification on magiccardsinfo:
10/4/2004: It does not replace any use of creature types in card text.
Amardarial is RIGHT. Conspiracy replaces creature types. "In card text" means that Goblin Chieftain will still give other Goblins +1/+1 if you named Elf even though he and all your other creatures are now elves.
205.1a Some effects set an object's card type. In such cases, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types. Counters, effects, and damage marked on the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new card type. Similarly, when an effect sets one or more of an object's subtypes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). If an object's card type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that card type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a card type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object's card type is removed. Removing an object's subtype doesn't affect its card types at all.
So firstly, I would like to apologize for necroing this thread that was almost 2 months old. I thought it would be an acceptable amount of time betweeen posts, but I was mistaken.
I would like to reintroduce the question posed in that thread with a different (perhaps more nubtastic) perspective.
The question is simple:
What happens? (And what happens when the Fiend Hunter Dies?)
The answer.....is complicated.
My current understanding is the following:
1)Mikaeus is moved to the exiled zone.
2)The counters on Mikaeus cease to exist due to rule 121.2.
3)Mikeaus becomes a 0/0 creature.
4)Mikaeus is moved to the owner's graveyard as a state based action due to rule 704.5.
Rules
Someone said that rule 704.5f only applies to creatures on the battlefield, but I was unable to find a rule that specified that. As far as I can tell, that rule applies to a creature in any zone.
If I am correct, It would mean that, essentially, Mikaeus would never stay exiled since he would be moved to the graveyard from the exiled zone. I personally think that would be pretty damn cool. If anyone can find a rule to the contrary, please correct me xD.
I wanted to continue on with a hypothetical, because it was interesting to me: Suppose Mikaeus is a 0/1. What happens in this scenario when he is bounced by our friend the Fiend Hunter?
I went ahead and looked at rule 400.7(the one that was referenced by 121.2):
One of the exceptions is:
Since Mikaeus has an ability that requires information about what mana was spent to cast it, this exception means that Mikaeus can retain memory of X when it moves zones.
This is where stuff gets interesting, because the following is also true about Mikaeus:
At this point, Mikaeus' X is retained in memory, but treated as 0 unless the card Mikaeus is on the stack. This specific instance of the card Mikaeus can never reenter the stack(as far as I can tell), so for the rest of its existence, Mikaeus' X will be treated as 0. In that case, when the Fiend Hunter dies, Mikaeus would reenter the battlefield with 0 counters.
TLDR:
Mikaeus -> Exiled -> Graveyard.
IF Mikaeus was a 0/1, Mikaeus -> Exiled -> (Fiend Hunter dies) -> Mikaeus -> Battlefield with 0 counters.
So I'm looking for feedback, particularly on my interpretation of rule 704.5f. Please provide the rules I can look at, with any accompanying explanations, otherwise I won't believe you
109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn't include the word "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.
There is nothing you can find specifically referring to 704.5f because it's not specific to creatures. 704.5f states that a creature with 0 toughness is put into the graveyard:
-While in your hand, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the graveyard, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While exiled, Mikaeus is not a creature -While in a library, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the command zone, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While on the stack, Mikaeus is not a creature
-When in any of these zones, Mikaeus is a creature card, and a creature card is completely different from a creature and the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other except that while on the battlefield creature card is referred to as a creature
From rule 109.2, we can derive the following:
704.5f If a permanent on the battlefield with the type of creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Here's what you guys are missing about Moonmist and Full Moon's Rise:
-When you have 5-6 Goblins, Goblin Grenade is twice as good as Fling about half the time, so it's about as good as Fling.
-When you have 5-6 Griffins, Griffin Rider is about twice as good as Stormfront Pegasus about half the time, so it's about as good as Stormfront Pegasus.
-When you have 8-9 Vampires, Feast of Blood is about as good as Hideous End half the time, so it's about half as good as Hideous End.
Stormfront Pegasus is good. Fling is fine. Hideous End half the time is probably alright. Look at what you get with the Werewolf enablers (and note all of these cards are effectively blanks without enablers, Griffin Rider aside):
-When you have 7-8 Werewolves and Wolves, Moonmist is about as good as Safe Passage about half the time, so it's about half as good as Safe Passage.
-When you have 5-6 Werewolves, Full Moon's Rise is about as good as Glorious Anthem half the time, so it's about half as good as Glorious Anthem.
Safe Passage is about on the level of Fling in terms of how good of a card it is. Half a Safe Passage is under the line of playable. Glorious Anthem is actually a good card, and half of a Glorious Anthem is above the line of playable IMO.
My evaluation on Cellar Door changed even within the writeup itself. At the end I said it's a relevant mill card but otherwise it sucks spending your turn using it to not get a Zombie.
I disagree about Ghost Quarter. You say it's flat out unplayable in any limited deck, but I think in sealed where there's quite a big chance your opponent has one of the rare activated ability lands, a slightly more inconsistent manabase (and frankly, the colour requirements in Innistrad aren't very high) is worth the ability to hose their lands. It's still a card that's not great, but it's not worse than a basic land.
EDIT: and yeah, as others have said before, it was a nice read, good job. Also agree with a lot of what you said
The thing about Ghost Quarter is that even if you kill a land with it you lost a card. The color requirements in Scars block were light as well, and Glimmerpost was basically unplayable, and unless you had ways to abuse the sacrifice, Phyrexia's Core was also basically unplayable. The opportunity cost of replacing a basic land with it isn't very high, but when you play it it's more likely to just cause yourself color issues than generate a particularly relevant effect. Completely unplayable is a bit of a stretch, because there are certain decks that are color light enough that playing 2 or 3 Glimmerpost is alright, but in a majority of situations it's unplayable. Also Ghost Quarter doesn't do a good job of color screwing people with unstable manabases anyways. You can use it to fix your own mana sometimes, but even doing that I'm sure you'd have less mana issues simply playing a colored land over it.
Enjoy if you will read it all. I hope this helps someone. I probably won't be able to discuss anything for a while as I am going to be busy for the next few days but if you do read it, thank you.
The fact that people don't understand what's wrong with universal subtypes is amazing to me.
If there were universal subtypes, Imagecrafter would be a mana accelerant and fixer. You could make your creature into a Forest and it would tap for green mana. All changelings would tap for mana. You could errata basic lands, duals, Ravnica duals, and the Leechridden Swamp cycle and remove the rules baggage attached to basic land types, but this causes a whole host of other problems with cards that change the types of lands. How would you ever print Convincing Mirage under these rules? Imagine fitting this on a card:
Enchant Land
As Convincing Mirage enters the battlefield, choose a basic land type.
Enchanted land is the chosen type.
If the chosen type is Plains, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add W to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Island, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add U to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Swamp, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add B to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Mountain, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add R to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Forest, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add G to your mana pool."
Every single card of this type would have to be reworded to this. Every single land type changing effect, and most of the ones like this that fix mana are common. I don't know about you, but I don't think most people would like to see commons that looked like this:
What about this beautiful piece of limited mana fixing?
I'm sure looking forward to Wizards printing cards that look like this in the future!
The card is very similiar to Torpor Orb. Orb, while neat, isn't all that good. Problem with cards like these, is that they are dependant on other cards. If you don't draw these then each Sundial you draw beyond the first becomes a horrible draw.
Like the Orb, it has it's uses. Will it be a sleeper? Most likely not.
I disagree completely about it being like Torpor Orb. I agree that it won't be good in constructed, but it's nothing like Torpor Orb.
Torpor Orb is a terrible card meant to be played in constructed and people thought it could have constructed potential. This is a card clearly meant for casual formats. Torpor Orb is pretty much not a "fun" card at all, and Sundial is bound to be able to make a ton of fun decks.
Right off the bat, I think you're undervaluing Apostle's Blessing.
It doesn't cantrip, sure, so it's not tel-jilad defiance or Shelter. But you can make it pro any color or artifact, so it's versatile. And you don't need to play it in a white deck. It fits into any deck as "counter target removal" or as a combat trick for 1 and 2 life. Anything aggro would love to have this kind of effect. It's not as good as the giant growth but it's pretty solid. Any deck can play it.
That is definitely a quirk about how I build my decks. I generally don't play reactive 1 for 1s that are conditional, and it's not really based on them being good or bad, I just never feel like I have space for them in my deck. I like having counterspells when I'm playing blue, but multiple drafts I have picked up a Withstand Death with the intention of playing it or sideboarding it in, and I have never put that card in my deck in a single game. I know that Withstand Death is a reasonable card that I shouldn't ever be unhappy with, but I can never see myself playing a card like that over another playable like a creature for some reason.
I think the red infect pinger is severely underrated here. Vedalken Anatomist is a bomb, and this guy is pretty similar. The fact that he can close games by repeatedly pinging the opponent for infect damage is definitely not irrelevant.
It doesn't tap down the guy like the Anatomist does, but I'd certainly move into red for this card, and he's definitely powerful enough to first pick over a lot of the set.
Yeah, that was the one thing right now that I think is significantly off base with the review. After consideration I realized that this is significantly better than an ordinary pinger because it messes with combat math and has the ability to kill things bigger than 1 toughess. It's like a Trigon of Corruption you don't have to recharge. I'll move it up to 3.5-4.0.
if you think a 3/3 beast is big in limited then did you ever think about doing it to your own creature in response to dismember or something? By turning your own creature/land/artifact like ichor wellspring into a 3/3 mid combat or in response to removal, you can definitely end up ahead in terms of CA.
Yes, you can, and sometimes a 3/3 flash beast for 3 is pretty good. Beast Within is OFTEN a 3/3 flash beast that makes you sac a card without the benefit of recovering the card though. Also, if you cast it in response to a removal spell, you don't end up ahead on cards. You lose 1 card in hand + 1 creature and gain 1 creature, net -1, and your opponent loses 1 card in hand, net -1, so you end up even.
Good review! About the prerelease: you said that the color scale in NPH is the following:
1. White
2. Blue
3. Black
4. Red
5. Green
And in SOM, if I remember correctly, the best colors are in order: (feel free to correct me since I read this information a lot of time ago)
1. White
2. Red
3. Blue
4. Green
5. Black
So the best options will be White/Blue and/or White/Red? Discuss
White has very solid cards but no deck for it immediately jumps out at me within the set itself. I think you will still see the same big archetypes, but here's the main decks I think I want to play, in order of effectiveness:
1. U/B control/poison: With 1 mind control effect in each set of the block, and very strong finishers in this set, along with tons of black removal this set provides, this looks like the best deck from this single set. It gets a lot of support in MBS, and less support from SOM, but in SOM you'll want to be picking up Grasp of Darkness, Trigon of Corruption, Volition Reins, and early game defensive creatures or Myr.
2. U/W skies: There's very good aggressive cards in each set in U/W that are hard to block. Porcelain Legionnaire is very good, both of the 5 mana 3/3 fliers, and the 4 mana 3/1 Shrike.
3. B/G poison: It's probably slower in this set than before, once again, but still, the format should easily support 2 poison drafters at the same table.
4. R/G dinos or R/B aggro: These decks will probably be weaker, especially with black getting cut fast now. However, all the burn is pretty splashable, so if you get early pick strong red cards like Volt Charge or the pinger, I'd definitely run with that and see what other color flows. You could be rewarded with 2nd or 3rd pick Burn the Impures or Galvanic Blasts.
5. W/X metalcraft: Just wanting to touch on metalcraft: this isn't a deck I force. I think the new Path is a speculative early pick, and will often reward you for being a speculative early pick. To end up in metalcraft, you should not look for metalcraft cards, but rather strong artifacts. You will often end up in the deck just taking good artifact cards.
There are other big decks, like U/G poison, various white poison decks, etc. Pretty much any color combination in this format is playable because of high artifact count. When unsure, remember that bombs and removal are always top picks, fliers are always very good, and that taking safe strong artifacts without committing to a color tends to lead to going into a safe open color more often than not.
Yeah the 1 on that card threw my flags up as well. Sure it's card disadvantage but it is still a regrowth like effect. And it's way broader than Raise Dead or Salvage scout, and it's instant speed which lets you mitigate the to top of deck effect, at least somewhat. It definitely deserves more than a 1.
You could argue that it's way better than Raise Dead and Salvage Scout, but I just don't think it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but think about this, from a search for all cards that return cards from graveyard to hand in standard sets at common and uncommon:
1 for 1s:
Disentomb is not very good in limited.
Call to Mind is not very good in limited.
Nature's Spiral is not very good in limited.
Salvage Scout is not very good in limited.
Frantic Salvage is not very good in limited.
2 for 1s:
Cadaver Imp is good in limited.
Corpse Cur is very good in limited.
Gravedigger is good in limited.
Grim Discovery is not very good in limited (almost never a 2 for 1).
Mnemonic Wall is okay in limited.
Morbid Plunder is very good in limited.
Razor Hippogriff is very good in limited.
Soul Stair Expedition is good in limited.
Surreal Memoir is okay in limited.
There's an enormous power difference between cards that 1 for 1 return cards to your hand from graveyard and the ones that 2 for 1. The only bad card that 2 for 1s is Grim Discovery and only because it's incredibly difficult to 2 for 1 off of it. Almost every other 2 for 1 graveyard return card is very strong, except for the 2 cards from Rise that are very good in the Kiln Fiend deck and not very good elsewhere.
Now think about taking this huge power swing from 1 for 1 to 2 for 1, and applying it backwards. That's a huge power swing downwards from cards that are already not that good. Regardless of it being very cheap and instant, cards like that tend to just not have enough utility and it's card disadvantage. And the thing is, when I have good cards to return, I don't feel bad about playing 1 for 1 return cards. When I have good cards to return, I still feel pretty bad about 2 for 1'ing myself regardless of the situation.
2. Incinerate is better than Lightning Bolt in every way.
3. Executioner's Swing isn't printed for standard.
The only thing we're in need of is for constructed formats to stop existing so people stop playing bad formats.
Why not? I see nothing preventing it.
Isn't Nissa from Zendikar?
Amardarial is RIGHT. Conspiracy replaces creature types. "In card text" means that Goblin Chieftain will still give other Goblins +1/+1 if you named Elf even though he and all your other creatures are now elves.
See this thread:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=198247
Also:
There is nothing you can find specifically referring to 704.5f because it's not specific to creatures. 704.5f states that a creature with 0 toughness is put into the graveyard:
-While in your hand, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the graveyard, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While exiled, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in a library, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While in the command zone, Mikaeus is not a creature
-While on the stack, Mikaeus is not a creature
-When in any of these zones, Mikaeus is a creature card, and a creature card is completely different from a creature and the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other except that while on the battlefield creature card is referred to as a creature
From rule 109.2, we can derive the following:
-When you have 5-6 Goblins, Goblin Grenade is twice as good as Fling about half the time, so it's about as good as Fling.
-When you have 5-6 Griffins, Griffin Rider is about twice as good as Stormfront Pegasus about half the time, so it's about as good as Stormfront Pegasus.
-When you have 8-9 Vampires, Feast of Blood is about as good as Hideous End half the time, so it's about half as good as Hideous End.
Stormfront Pegasus is good. Fling is fine. Hideous End half the time is probably alright. Look at what you get with the Werewolf enablers (and note all of these cards are effectively blanks without enablers, Griffin Rider aside):
-When you have 7-8 Werewolves and Wolves, Moonmist is about as good as Safe Passage about half the time, so it's about half as good as Safe Passage.
-When you have 5-6 Werewolves, Full Moon's Rise is about as good as Glorious Anthem half the time, so it's about half as good as Glorious Anthem.
Safe Passage is about on the level of Fling in terms of how good of a card it is. Half a Safe Passage is under the line of playable. Glorious Anthem is actually a good card, and half of a Glorious Anthem is above the line of playable IMO.
The thing about Ghost Quarter is that even if you kill a land with it you lost a card. The color requirements in Scars block were light as well, and Glimmerpost was basically unplayable, and unless you had ways to abuse the sacrifice, Phyrexia's Core was also basically unplayable. The opportunity cost of replacing a basic land with it isn't very high, but when you play it it's more likely to just cause yourself color issues than generate a particularly relevant effect. Completely unplayable is a bit of a stretch, because there are certain decks that are color light enough that playing 2 or 3 Glimmerpost is alright, but in a majority of situations it's unplayable. Also Ghost Quarter doesn't do a good job of color screwing people with unstable manabases anyways. You can use it to fix your own mana sometimes, but even doing that I'm sure you'd have less mana issues simply playing a colored land over it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmP-JNjE3EFIsVe9dPHabdy86iklP5r9NQBvQmq9BpY/edit?hl=en_US
Enjoy if you will read it all. I hope this helps someone. I probably won't be able to discuss anything for a while as I am going to be busy for the next few days but if you do read it, thank you.
If there were universal subtypes, Imagecrafter would be a mana accelerant and fixer. You could make your creature into a Forest and it would tap for green mana. All changelings would tap for mana. You could errata basic lands, duals, Ravnica duals, and the Leechridden Swamp cycle and remove the rules baggage attached to basic land types, but this causes a whole host of other problems with cards that change the types of lands. How would you ever print Convincing Mirage under these rules? Imagine fitting this on a card:
Enchant Land
As Convincing Mirage enters the battlefield, choose a basic land type.
Enchanted land is the chosen type.
If the chosen type is Plains, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add W to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Island, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add U to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Swamp, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add B to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Mountain, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add R to your mana pool." If the chosen type is Forest, enchanted land loses all abilities and gains "T: Add G to your mana pool."
Every single card of this type would have to be reworded to this. Every single land type changing effect, and most of the ones like this that fix mana are common. I don't know about you, but I don't think most people would like to see commons that looked like this:
What about this beautiful piece of limited mana fixing?
I'm sure looking forward to Wizards printing cards that look like this in the future!
Seems strong. Probably will never see play over Hero but I like it.
I disagree completely about it being like Torpor Orb. I agree that it won't be good in constructed, but it's nothing like Torpor Orb.
Torpor Orb is a terrible card meant to be played in constructed and people thought it could have constructed potential. This is a card clearly meant for casual formats. Torpor Orb is pretty much not a "fun" card at all, and Sundial is bound to be able to make a ton of fun decks.
That is definitely a quirk about how I build my decks. I generally don't play reactive 1 for 1s that are conditional, and it's not really based on them being good or bad, I just never feel like I have space for them in my deck. I like having counterspells when I'm playing blue, but multiple drafts I have picked up a Withstand Death with the intention of playing it or sideboarding it in, and I have never put that card in my deck in a single game. I know that Withstand Death is a reasonable card that I shouldn't ever be unhappy with, but I can never see myself playing a card like that over another playable like a creature for some reason.
Yeah, that was the one thing right now that I think is significantly off base with the review. After consideration I realized that this is significantly better than an ordinary pinger because it messes with combat math and has the ability to kill things bigger than 1 toughess. It's like a Trigon of Corruption you don't have to recharge. I'll move it up to 3.5-4.0.
Yes, you can, and sometimes a 3/3 flash beast for 3 is pretty good. Beast Within is OFTEN a 3/3 flash beast that makes you sac a card without the benefit of recovering the card though. Also, if you cast it in response to a removal spell, you don't end up ahead on cards. You lose 1 card in hand + 1 creature and gain 1 creature, net -1, and your opponent loses 1 card in hand, net -1, so you end up even.
White has very solid cards but no deck for it immediately jumps out at me within the set itself. I think you will still see the same big archetypes, but here's the main decks I think I want to play, in order of effectiveness:
1. U/B control/poison: With 1 mind control effect in each set of the block, and very strong finishers in this set, along with tons of black removal this set provides, this looks like the best deck from this single set. It gets a lot of support in MBS, and less support from SOM, but in SOM you'll want to be picking up Grasp of Darkness, Trigon of Corruption, Volition Reins, and early game defensive creatures or Myr.
2. U/W skies: There's very good aggressive cards in each set in U/W that are hard to block. Porcelain Legionnaire is very good, both of the 5 mana 3/3 fliers, and the 4 mana 3/1 Shrike.
3. B/G poison: It's probably slower in this set than before, once again, but still, the format should easily support 2 poison drafters at the same table.
4. R/G dinos or R/B aggro: These decks will probably be weaker, especially with black getting cut fast now. However, all the burn is pretty splashable, so if you get early pick strong red cards like Volt Charge or the pinger, I'd definitely run with that and see what other color flows. You could be rewarded with 2nd or 3rd pick Burn the Impures or Galvanic Blasts.
5. W/X metalcraft: Just wanting to touch on metalcraft: this isn't a deck I force. I think the new Path is a speculative early pick, and will often reward you for being a speculative early pick. To end up in metalcraft, you should not look for metalcraft cards, but rather strong artifacts. You will often end up in the deck just taking good artifact cards.
There are other big decks, like U/G poison, various white poison decks, etc. Pretty much any color combination in this format is playable because of high artifact count. When unsure, remember that bombs and removal are always top picks, fliers are always very good, and that taking safe strong artifacts without committing to a color tends to lead to going into a safe open color more often than not.
You could argue that it's way better than Raise Dead and Salvage Scout, but I just don't think it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but think about this, from a search for all cards that return cards from graveyard to hand in standard sets at common and uncommon:
1 for 1s:
Disentomb is not very good in limited.
Call to Mind is not very good in limited.
Nature's Spiral is not very good in limited.
Salvage Scout is not very good in limited.
Frantic Salvage is not very good in limited.
2 for 1s:
Cadaver Imp is good in limited.
Corpse Cur is very good in limited.
Gravedigger is good in limited.
Grim Discovery is not very good in limited (almost never a 2 for 1).
Mnemonic Wall is okay in limited.
Morbid Plunder is very good in limited.
Razor Hippogriff is very good in limited.
Soul Stair Expedition is good in limited.
Surreal Memoir is okay in limited.
There's an enormous power difference between cards that 1 for 1 return cards to your hand from graveyard and the ones that 2 for 1. The only bad card that 2 for 1s is Grim Discovery and only because it's incredibly difficult to 2 for 1 off of it. Almost every other 2 for 1 graveyard return card is very strong, except for the 2 cards from Rise that are very good in the Kiln Fiend deck and not very good elsewhere.
Now think about taking this huge power swing from 1 for 1 to 2 for 1, and applying it backwards. That's a huge power swing downwards from cards that are already not that good. Regardless of it being very cheap and instant, cards like that tend to just not have enough utility and it's card disadvantage. And the thing is, when I have good cards to return, I don't feel bad about playing 1 for 1 return cards. When I have good cards to return, I still feel pretty bad about 2 for 1'ing myself regardless of the situation.