MTG Salvation

The problem with Jace, the Mind Sculptor in this deck is twofold: one, he simply clogs a slot in the curve that has better cards in it. Secondly, what does he do that is something Faeries actually wants to accomplish? For now Ancestral Vision is obviously vastly superior card draw, and in the fall Jace Beleren will be better because it not only fits perfectly in the curve but also actually does something. What do you want to do with that slot in the deck? Draw cards. How do you draw cards with Jace, the Mind Sculptor? By Brainstorming, which leaves him indefinitely at 3 Loyalty. Jace Beleren draws you the cards you need without requiring that you keep him so vulnerable. He just goes up, and up, and up, and that alone makes him the clear winner for the slot in this particular archetype.

It doesn't matter if your opponent draws cards, too - all that matters is that YOU get to draw cards. Jace Beleren is miles ahead in that regard.

Quote from Polizei

I agree for the most part. I've tested Vengevine and found it nowhere near as effective as Chris states. It's probably matchup dependent, but after 5 games without ruinblaster and instead with Vengevine he was the first card to get the axe. I just kept thinking in every situation where I was about to cast Vengevine that I'd much rather have a Ruinblaster in hand.

Obvious statements I should make here aside (I've bolded for emphasis), what about the situations where your opponent has a Wall of Omens in play? You'd rather have a Goblin Ruinblaster there? And, further, why does it have to be Vengevine that gets the axe for Goblin Ruinblaster? If you're going to make a push to play that card maindeck (and I'm not sure you should be doing that), then why not buy into the haste game plan and cut something else for them?

People really don't think Wall of Omens is good? Or, rather, think that it won't see play? At the very least, the existence of Overgrown Battlement and Perimeter Captain should be a "durr durr" with this card.

You guys know that Alara Block rotates this fall, right?

Quote from Daesik

Also, cheaper decks are played far more often online than offline. In extended, burn is a popular choice online for its low cost - but not in paper because it's not a good deck. Lots of people are buying ally decks for cheap online to play.

The difference is that the Ally decks are winning.

Isn't it funny how that works out?

Quote from subrosian

What "good results" exactly, outside of MTGO, has Allies posted? Frankly I think there are a ton of people who want Allies to be a good deck because it's inexpensive and they hate Jund. That's it - I don't see why detractors of decks like Allies, Vampires or Runeflare trap really have to explain why those aren't Tier One decks.

Again, why does it matter if the results are on MTGO or not? Why keep bringing that up?

And as far as non-MTGO results go, the deck has lots of t16 finishes at 5Ks in recent memory.

I'm not entirely sure what the debate here actually is: is it really being suggested that the Ally deck is inherently bad because Day of Judgment is in the format? Realistically, only a single deck in the format is playing that card, and even then why does it matter that much? Has anyone actually piloted the Ally deck that's contributing to this thread? Do you really think that the deck just vomits out dudes mindlessly and then scoops it up when the opponent plays a sweeper? Get real. We're not talking about dumping your hand into play, here - we're talking about applying pressure, and even in a deck built around a tribal synergy we don't need to overextend. The deck has Bloodbraid Elf and Ranger to refill, and Naya Charm can get either card back in a pinch. Beyond that, not sucking complete ass at playing an aggressive deck would probably be a good place to start when contemplating whether or not the deck is junk.

And subrosian: dude, the MTGO meta may not be the same as the paper world, but if a deck wins a deck freaking wins. Allies isn't just piling up wins on MTGO because the MTGO meta is better for it: it's winning because it's not an awful deck. In the last handful of real-life 400+ player events, a slew of Ally decks have been X-0 at the top tables. The deck is for real, and I'd suggest that anyone dissing on it essentially because it "only plays seven spells" should probably actually play with the damn deck first.

Quote from TheChosen1 »

MTGO results are as meaningless as your local Friday Night Magic.

LOL

Right. Because this post makes sense. >_<

Quote from razefire

I like Chapin's list, but aggro eats it alive, but you can see that from looking at it. Thats why he had those life gain dorks. Anyway, that build won't serve me well here without adjustments. Mainly, upping the removal count (like Pte). Prolly some sort of damage prevention either in the sideboard or main, like ASong/SPassage, etc). I know from playing against Zoo enough, even 4 Pte/4DoJ won't save you. You also need other tools, like JTMSculptor (obviously), and Elspeth woudn't hurt (can make dudes, and pump Celestial Colonnades!). Come on folk, gotta rennovate decks to suit what you need, not copy pro lists (which they made to fight their metagames).

1. Only Boros and RDW eat it alive, whereas Vampires, White Weenie, and Jund are actually positive match-ups.

2. The point of playing only one Path is that you don't want to give them lands. I mean what, you thought the Edges were in there for looks?

Quote from dreinal13

I guess you missed my main point, the format is not about one archetype. Let alone an archetype that didn't really do well in the PT. I agree its necessary to discuss about the MU but dedicating so much work and to a certain extent, hate in it is just wasted effort as Jund was there to win the PT, Boss Naya is a pretty hard matchup(Harder than UW Control I would argue), and WW still getting around us. I don't really see the point of resulting to flaming and declaring war when it's not even a substantial part of being competitive. UW Control's number will rise, but if I really want to bring down a Vamps deck I would go with WW or Jund and to these decks, we are at the mercy of having a God draw or the opponent's screwing bigtime.

Didn't do well in the PT? Pat Chapin, Mark Herberholz, and Gabriel Nassif were all in the top Standard decks, dude. There were like, what, two or three others playing the deck? You know how sick a record that is?

Quote from Fade_To_Black

Well, my big thing is Pithing Needle not shutting down Iona. Sure, if you have two Bloodwitches, or one bloodwitch and two active Nocturni... but that's not going to happen as often as them getting Iona.

Sadistic Sacrament takes out two birds with one stone, eliminating one wincon completely and removing half of the other, bringing Jace down to an easily-managed 2-of. If you hit them with two Sacraments... :hifive:(Colonnade is not a problem. Tendrils, smother, or Bloodwitch takes it down easily, as does any nocturnus-pumped vampire.)

Right. Sacrament is yet another spell that "wins" you the game, though it's probably a lot better than Mind Sludge. The problem I had vs UW was that Mind Sludge actually just wasn't doing it for me, since it's fairly easy to survive it if you're on the UW side of things. First and foremost, Treasure Hunt allows them to usually keep a full hand, so Sludge won't always be wiping out their whole grip. Second, with a Jace on the board they can easily hide Mind Spring two cards down and just wait for you to Sludge so that they can untap and Brainstorm for it.

Underworld Dreams may be a start, but having more Mind Rots to bring in after SB would help. Pithing Needle, even the Sacrament would be ideas. I never said you didn't have options, just that you need to PLAY those cards in order to not roll over to UW.

Quote from Mind Game

Shin what do you want to accomplish? you want us to throw flowers in the air and thank you? I don't know for what kind of crowd you're used to write, but i am not one of them.

The cards we have for UW Jace2 deck are obvious, how to use them is also obvious. If you want start a discussion to improve this deck, do so for our Jund MU. Jace2 is not a big problem for Vampires and yes i have played against that deck.

Every card is problem if you can't answer them, vampires can and will answer Jace2.

Jesus Christ man, I don't think you actually read anything that I write.
Look, I don't give a damn if you like me or not, I'm OBVIOUSLY not coming to this thread to interact with you at all. I'm here to discuss with those who actually want to listen (i.e. not you).

Jace is good, and that's why you hear about it so much. Jace is fine against your deck, because after they wipe the board, your one creature is just going to get bounced every turn for free while I use my hand and my mana to control anything else you try to do on your turn. Eventually we Mind Spring, draw Iona, and you lose. It's actually very simple.

Like I said, I don't think the win ratio is truly 35:1 or something absurd, but I do believe it's at least 60:40 in favor of UW. That being said, you all can either blindly believe that "we beat control decks because we're Vampires" or you can actually think open-mindedly and realize that you need to CHANGE your deck to beat the control decks that have CHANGED in order to beat YOU.

Ugh.

Quote from Dark_Angel666

This is why I dont talk strategy with you guys anymore....It just end up like 4 or 5 pages of screaming and flaming over nothing.

Exactly - it's honestly rather pointless, isn't it?

It's not that I truly believe that the win ratio for UW is actually 35:1. but rather that without further testing the numbers are obviously going to pan out in UW's favor.

And for the record, I don't write for this website - I write for SCG, and as such my testing has to be conclusive and it has to be against good players. That's quite imperative, and I strive to find good playtesting partners. So to the guy who said that I was playtesting with a little girl or w/e because he can't come to grips with the fact that his "pet deck" loses to a good match-up here and there: try again.

I was trying to help. Epic fail on my part for trying I guess.

Quote from Mind Game

Jace is not a problem at all, we can duress and hexmage it.

If these are the responses I'm going to get, then allow me to show myself out.