Which means you can win with redcap infinite damage on an opponent's turn even if he has infinite life. Just like kiki can't kill you if you still have infinite life combo active on his turn.
This is wrong. A judge would best explain it but when infinite damage and infinite life are both things, the infinite life wins because you have to move past the state in the game where both people are continually comboing off. That means that the redcap player picks an arbitrarily high number, the life player picks an arbitrarily higher life total, and you both agree to move on until one can stop the other from comboing further. This is why things like Abrupt Decay, Path, Linvala, and Scooze are so important. They are momentary disruptions in your opponents infinite combo and allow you to kill him or her before they can reassemble.
You are right in general reasoning, but wrong in the actual ruling of infinite loops. The active player is required to move the game state forward, thus ending the loop of infinite life vs infinite dmg in favor of the opposing player such as my example above.
716.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
What I found is that there are several decks in the game that can beat infinite life and can often clear up your board. (...) Kiki chord are some salient examples.
i've always wondered how this works - so infinite damage beats infinite life?
The active player has to end the loop in order to make the game move on.
Which means you can win with redcap infinite damage on an opponent's turn even if he has infinite life. Just like kiki can't kill you if you still have infinite life combo active on his turn.
With this list, in 25+ people Modern Mondays I have managed to go:
4-0, 3-0-1, 3-1, 4-0, 3-0-1
And now with my new oath list with only results from yesterday's FNM:
3-1 for 2nd place. Turns out that place has a lot of burn decks and I won 2-0 to burn first round and lost 1-2 to burn last round. Beating GR Tron on my 2nd round and affinity on 3rd round.
In all my matches, I only saw one TKS, so I can't really say much about it. Smasher did wonders against Tron. Displacer was a godsent against affinity and allowed me to stabilize at 1 hp until I was able to start healing up with vault. Blinking and tapping the flyers, removing ravager counters, taking off plating and throwing a stony silence after... boy that was magical. I'm thinking about putting at least one into the mainboard as he's an amazing mid/late game draw, though a bit less useful early on since he doesn't do anything as he enters the battlefiend. Tendrils were amazing wipes vs affinity.
I can't remember the day I was able to stick a t2 electromancer to see it alive on my turn. One man can only dream...
You'll get used to the combo, most of the times I end up going off T4 without ascension or electromancer, but with past in flames. That's why I tend to keep hands heavy on rituals against hand disruption/counterspells.
Storm is a very skill-intensive tricky deck to play as you gotta figure out the puzzle, do proper maths, bait your opponent's counterspells.. you're supposed to be in charge and always threatening to go off and make them use their counterspells on spells you want them to. Even people who know how the deck works tend to counter stuff out of fear.
T3 kills won't happen vs counterspells, but are more likely to happen against hand disruption since it's easier to go off after an inquisition or thoughtseize than seeing your opponent on a steam vents and a fetch land waiting to remand or bolt. Since you can't really practice playing vs counterspells/playing mind games with your opponent all by yourself, what you can do is deal yourself a hand like you would play, do your stuff, but never allow yourself to keep your t2 electromancer/ascension if you have it in your opening hand, but still play it out and see how early you can combo off. You'll learn the kind of hands you can deal with and the ones that just bring nowhere. You should (almost)always be able to combo off on turn 4 even without your t2 goblin/ascension. If you cannot, then try changing your sequence of spells and trying to figure out when you should or shouldn't keep this or that spell.
I encountered a mulliganing decision on which I disagreed with spectators.
I was on play with Mountain, 2x Ritual, Manamorphose, Empty, Ravings and Ascension against mono black infect (control).
Would you keep?
No cantrip, no blue mana.. way too much of a gamble especially since you're on the play and don't get that one extra card. I wouldn't even have kept that hand with a blue source tbh.
I think the advantage of Molten Vortex is that being able to put it out at t1 keeps it out of discard/counter range and allows you to have some sort of defensive/offensive early mechanic: somewhat like a non-boltable grim lavamancer. You may not use it as wincon like you would use assault (although it may serve as wincon given the proper circumstance). I'd try a 2/3 split of vortex/assault.
The new card is pretty good, but not as early cantrip. Imo, it's the best card to get out of a "fizzle" state so despite being a "dead card" early own, it easily becomes amazing since even with 16 lands there are so many times where those extra lands drawn just mess it up. I'm personally going to take out the 3 ravings to add this since it's 1) a red card draw with filter 2) costs friggin 1 mana (avoids spell snare) 3) works very will with serum visions for better consistency.
Overall, def not a 4-of, but low mana red cantrip with a filter to get rid of those pesky land draws and get you out of awkard situations where you draw a bunch of rituals/lands and don't need those extra lands/need a way to use that red mana for something useful.
It also has some nice upside against eidolon since we wouldn't take pain. It is also essentially another echoing truth. Against most rule of law effects and rip.
We would still take 2 from eidolon since it's 3CMC to repeal it. The only "upside" would be that is that it cycles, but echoing truth is much more viable as it can 2 for 1 and get rid of leyline with less mana (which usually is why it's there).
I know everyone is saying to wait until GP Vegas to see how the prices will react, but do y'all think that SCG's prices will actually go lower or just TCG median ?
So in my current meta, I am having major issues against Affinity, anything you can can recommend in terms of strategies or sideboard cards? The current sideboard cards I am running against that deck is 4 Revelry Destruction and 2 Rakdos Charm.
I had to bring PLA back due to the amount of control decks that popped once again, brews and whatnot and flash + cannot counter + bounce is just amazing. Haven had to be a 1-of due to its ability to bring back my silumgar (or even ugin) which did wonders for me in testing and tonight. Ultimate price, well, it speaks for itself. Best change I ever made. I added silence in the SB to deal with Rakshasa Deathdealer mainly. That card is such a pain !
I tested my new list tonight at a local tournament and went 3-0-1 taking first place. I won't go through all the details as most of these matches were control matches, so quite boring to go through.
1st round: 1-1 vs sultai control
2nd round: 1-0 vs temur control
3rd round: 2-0 vs abzan control
4rd round: 2-0 vs mono red aggro brew
My matches were:
1: 2-0 vs R/G Aggro
G1 he took me down to 3, but wasn't able to finish me off while I was beating him with a SSD. G2 he wasn't able to do anything all game and he conceded when Ugin entered the battlefield.
3: 2-0 vs Mono Red Aggro
G1 he got land screwed and I just killed everything off or countered them as they came. G2 he mul'd to 5 and my hand had 1 bile blight, 1 ultimate price, 1 hero's downfall and topdecked a dissolve. I also ended up with a t3 Ashiok since he had nothing on the battlefield after losing them and just ended up winning with a SSD.
4: 2-1 vs R/G Aggro
G1 he annihilated me. I had terrible high cost draws in hand and couldn't draw enough hate to deal with his rabblemasters and shaman. G2 was a nice game which I ended up winning with a SSD. G3 I was at 10 hp, he was at 5. I had silumgar out, he had a Flamewake Phoenix which I used Aetherspouts on. He Crater's Claw me for 8, taking me down to 2 and taking himself down to 4 due to mana confluence. Next turn I swing for 3, he puts his phoenix back onto the battlefield, I downfall it and he concedes.
We had a total of 19 people and I was kind of surprised I didn't encounter any abzan !
Overall, I was pretty satisfied with the results of my current list. I am still debating whether or not to keep Tasigur, the Golden Fang as I never sided him in in any games and wonder if I ever will due to the amazing new hate cards Self-inflicted Wound and Ultimate Price. I guess Tasigur might change according to the new fresh meta as I see fit. Perhaps adding another Silumgar, the Drifting Death and a Negate or bring back Pearl Lake Ancient into the SB..
You are right in general reasoning, but wrong in the actual ruling of infinite loops. The active player is required to move the game state forward, thus ending the loop of infinite life vs infinite dmg in favor of the opposing player such as my example above.
The active player has to end the loop in order to make the game move on.
Which means you can win with redcap infinite damage on an opponent's turn even if he has infinite life. Just like kiki can't kill you if you still have infinite life combo active on his turn.
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
1 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures - 13
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
4 Oblivion Sower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
4 Lingering Souls
1 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Artifacts - 6
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Expedition Map
2 Stony Silence
2 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Disenchant
2 Celestial Purge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 All is Dust
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghost Quarter
With this list, in 25+ people Modern Mondays I have managed to go:
4-0, 3-0-1, 3-1, 4-0, 3-0-1
And now with my new oath list with only results from yesterday's FNM:
3-1 for 2nd place. Turns out that place has a lot of burn decks and I won 2-0 to burn first round and lost 1-2 to burn last round. Beating GR Tron on my 2nd round and affinity on 3rd round.
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
1 Shambling Vent
2 Marsh Flats
Creatures - 16
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Oblivion Sower
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Blight Herder
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts - 4
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 All Is Dust
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Spellskite
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Eldrazi Displacer
In all my matches, I only saw one TKS, so I can't really say much about it. Smasher did wonders against Tron. Displacer was a godsent against affinity and allowed me to stabilize at 1 hp until I was able to start healing up with vault. Blinking and tapping the flyers, removing ravager counters, taking off plating and throwing a stony silence after... boy that was magical. I'm thinking about putting at least one into the mainboard as he's an amazing mid/late game draw, though a bit less useful early on since he doesn't do anything as he enters the battlefiend. Tendrils were amazing wipes vs affinity.
Big papa Tron will never let that happen. Control decks are just out of the picture.
You'll get used to the combo, most of the times I end up going off T4 without ascension or electromancer, but with past in flames. That's why I tend to keep hands heavy on rituals against hand disruption/counterspells.
Storm is a very skill-intensive tricky deck to play as you gotta figure out the puzzle, do proper maths, bait your opponent's counterspells.. you're supposed to be in charge and always threatening to go off and make them use their counterspells on spells you want them to. Even people who know how the deck works tend to counter stuff out of fear.
T3 kills won't happen vs counterspells, but are more likely to happen against hand disruption since it's easier to go off after an inquisition or thoughtseize than seeing your opponent on a steam vents and a fetch land waiting to remand or bolt. Since you can't really practice playing vs counterspells/playing mind games with your opponent all by yourself, what you can do is deal yourself a hand like you would play, do your stuff, but never allow yourself to keep your t2 electromancer/ascension if you have it in your opening hand, but still play it out and see how early you can combo off. You'll learn the kind of hands you can deal with and the ones that just bring nowhere. You should (almost)always be able to combo off on turn 4 even without your t2 goblin/ascension. If you cannot, then try changing your sequence of spells and trying to figure out when you should or shouldn't keep this or that spell.
No cantrip, no blue mana.. way too much of a gamble especially since you're on the play and don't get that one extra card. I wouldn't even have kept that hand with a blue source tbh.
Overall, def not a 4-of, but low mana red cantrip with a filter to get rid of those pesky land draws and get you out of awkard situations where you draw a bunch of rituals/lands and don't need those extra lands/need a way to use that red mana for something useful.
We would still take 2 from eidolon since it's 3CMC to repeal it. The only "upside" would be that is that it cycles, but echoing truth is much more viable as it can 2 for 1 and get rid of leyline with less mana (which usually is why it's there).
Add 2 Smash to smithereens perhaps
And this is the new list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Swamp
5 Island
1 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Radiant Fountain
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Instants - 26
4 Dissolve
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Bile Blight
1 Aetherspouts
4 Dig Through Time
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
4 Anticipate
1 Negate
2 Ultimate Price
1 Crux of Fate
Planeswalkers - 3
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Artifacts - 2
2 Perilous Vault
Creature - 2
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
2 Self-inflicted Wound
1 Silence the Believers
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Virulent Plague
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Thoughtseize
MB
+1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
+1 Pearl Lake Ancient
+2 Ultimate Price
-1 Drown in Sorrow
-1 Radiant Fountain
-1 Bile Blight
-1 Silumgar's Command
SB
+1 Drown in Sorrow
+1 Silence the Believers
-2 Ultimate Price
I had to bring PLA back due to the amount of control decks that popped once again, brews and whatnot and flash + cannot counter + bounce is just amazing. Haven had to be a 1-of due to its ability to bring back my silumgar (or even ugin) which did wonders for me in testing and tonight. Ultimate price, well, it speaks for itself. Best change I ever made. I added silence in the SB to deal with Rakshasa Deathdealer mainly. That card is such a pain !
I tested my new list tonight at a local tournament and went 3-0-1 taking first place. I won't go through all the details as most of these matches were control matches, so quite boring to go through.
1st round: 1-1 vs sultai control
2nd round: 1-0 vs temur control
3rd round: 2-0 vs abzan control
4rd round: 2-0 vs mono red aggro brew
4 Polluted Delta
4 Dismal Backwater
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Swamp
5 Island
1 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Radiant Fountain
Instants - 26
4 Dissolve
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Bile Blight
1 Aetherspouts
4 Dig Through Time
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Silumgar's Command
4 Anticipate
1 Negate
1 Crux of Fate
1 Drown in Sorrow
Planeswalkers - 3
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Artifacts - 2
2 Perilous Vault
Creature - 1
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Self-inflicted Wound
2 Ultimate Price
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Virulent Plague
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Thoughtseize
My matches were:
1: 2-0 vs R/G Aggro
G1 he took me down to 3, but wasn't able to finish me off while I was beating him with a SSD. G2 he wasn't able to do anything all game and he conceded when Ugin entered the battlefield.
2: 2-1 vs Jeskai Control
G1 I won with Ashiok taking all his win cons. G2 he won the counter wars when I tried to get an ashiok out and then he played a cannot be countered Dragonlord's Prerogative[/card to pull himself ahead on cards. I top decked a thoughtseize to take his dragon off, but he got a haven and brought it back into his hand and beat me to death with it. G3 I got a t3 Ashiok which got to its ultimate and from there he just scooped since I was way ahead in cards and had 2 Dragonlord Ojutai with Ashiok.
3: 2-0 vs Mono Red Aggro
G1 he got land screwed and I just killed everything off or countered them as they came. G2 he mul'd to 5 and my hand had 1 bile blight, 1 ultimate price, 1 hero's downfall and topdecked a dissolve. I also ended up with a t3 Ashiok since he had nothing on the battlefield after losing them and just ended up winning with a SSD.
4: 2-1 vs R/G Aggro
G1 he annihilated me. I had terrible high cost draws in hand and couldn't draw enough hate to deal with his rabblemasters and shaman. G2 was a nice game which I ended up winning with a SSD. G3 I was at 10 hp, he was at 5. I had silumgar out, he had a Flamewake Phoenix which I used Aetherspouts on. He Crater's Claw me for 8, taking me down to 2 and taking himself down to 4 due to mana confluence. Next turn I swing for 3, he puts his phoenix back onto the battlefield, I downfall it and he concedes.
We had a total of 19 people and I was kind of surprised I didn't encounter any abzan !
Overall, I was pretty satisfied with the results of my current list. I am still debating whether or not to keep Tasigur, the Golden Fang as I never sided him in in any games and wonder if I ever will due to the amazing new hate cards Self-inflicted Wound and Ultimate Price. I guess Tasigur might change according to the new fresh meta as I see fit. Perhaps adding another Silumgar, the Drifting Death and a Negate or bring back Pearl Lake Ancient into the SB..