Also, isn't it too obvious that the best Preordain deck would be a combo deck?. I mean, you might like combo decks and all, but that's not the direction WOTC wants Modern to be headed. After Ad Nauseam's strong performances over the years, UR Storm still on its legs, and Griselbrand making some waves, i think everybody should agree that banned blue cantrips have a grave in Modern UNLESS the direction of the format changes.
It isn't obvious at all lol. Ad Nauseam's strong performances over the years? Don't make everyone laugh pls. It has always been a fringe deck, which never raised above tier 2. Just look at the current metagame:
Fast decks, big mana decks and green-based decks with Ancient Stirrings and Traverse the Ulvenwald as premium card selection. Where are reactive decks? Where is combo? I'll show:
Now tell me, you definitely believe that unbanning of the cantrip which is a bit better than Serum Visions will push these decks over the top? And another question to everyone: are you sure that exactly Jace himself will help blue to combat those top tier strategies? I have serious doubts.
Traverse again is a terrible land cycle card until you have jumped through the needed hoops.
Terrible? Print sth like:
Sorcery, U (1)
Search your library for a blue instant card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
Delirium — If there are four or more card types among cards in your graveyard, instead search your library for a sorcery or instant card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
and we'll see how it's terrible. I keep silent about one-mana cantrip which shows you 5(!) topdecks and gives one immediately.
Let alone Ponder, but Preordain in the banlist is the complete joke. While green has access to Ancient Stirrings, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Chord of Calling etc. - all blue can oppose in terms of card selection is relying on *****ty Serum Visions.
Jace is interesting, but he doesn't help against aggro at all. He also won't prevent big mana decks from smashing Ulamog or Valakut on the following turn. So, blue just needs ways to find answers! Preordain would really help Tempo and Control decks with that. Combo? What are you talking about lol? Splinter Twin is banned, rituals are banned, Gitaxian Probe is banned. Ad Nauseam and Cheeri0s are already mentioned above. Combo is probably in the same coffin as reactive decks.
Okay, don't pull up arguments out of context then. It isn't only about Snap->Probe, it's about synergy with almost every card in the deck, bringing information and digging deeper along the way. Of course it defined how the deck was played. Calling it hyperbolic sounds like you either didn't play the card at all, or just doesn't see the difference between turn 2 and turn 3 in this fast format.
For me real cornercase scenario regarding Probe is, I don't know, drawing scried topdeck after mulligan on the play with no other lands in hand except fetches. But it wasn't even mentioned in the list above. Those interactions were natural by themselves and gave pressure and knowledge in every matchup, outside of aggro. And even there you could just cycle the card for mana. That's why it was awesome.
Almost all of those are cornercase scenarios that no one tried to force (I won't miss Snap into probe turn 2 and everytime I did it it was a mediocre play I was never happy with) or things that are essentially the same argument as "Bolt is good because it deals 3 damage and can kill a creature" Looking at your opponent's hand for K command or brutality is a negligible advantage, drawing after a Serum Visions was not a game changing play, drawing lands seems like a bad excuse since we cut the land for the probe and now added it back, I was rarely ever forced to play probe to feed a turn 2 Tasigur. This just seems hyperbolic with a bunch of made up pros to probe half of which never happpen during a regular tournament or are just praising the parts of probe that you could replace with peek.
I'm not saying that the deck didn't need them, but lets stop pretending like the world is falling apart because we don't have "look at your hand draw a card for U" anymore.
Man, it's competitive deck and competitive forum. "Cornercase scenarios" matter a lot. And claiming that they never happen just shows how unexperienced with the deck you are. Because they happen every time you have Probe and sth mentioned above to interact. Otherwise, you just cycle it with U, yes. By your logic, fetchlands can be abandoned as well. They force to pay 1 life, go to the grave and interact with only 7-8 cards in the deck. Can easily be removed lol.
BTW, nobody says the world is falling. I just wanted to add up that by this ban our deck lost tons of lines to play and got nothing in return, except for worse metagame. Unfortunately, Push doesn't seem to be panacea too. And Wizards once again showed their attitude to the format. Instead of methodical unbanning and printing hate pieces in newer sets, they just prefer to cut controversial cards, simultaneously killing couple of decks and dealing collateral damage to others. No one playable card is safe, even if there are stronger and more degenerate options out there. Of course, it's just my opinion.
totally agree with you in all points (especially the last one about the UR spell bannings etc) even if I do not think that the loss of a card that most lists played in 2 copies will make the deck too much worse! For sure it is a big loss, but if it was a staple of the decks we would have played in 4 copies!
This does not change the fact that WOTC has really no idea how to handle with modern. A format where gitaxian probe is banned, but it is possible to play non-sense decks like Tron or Eldrazi creature.
Yeah, I think it was result of very aggressive metagame and desire to test new cards like Brutality in this slot. Most decks still ran 3 copies though.
For those who says Probe wasn't important, just a few tips to consider:
First of all, this ban weakens Infect and kills Suicide Zoo, two of our best matchups.
Next. Having been playing Delver in different variations for almost 3 years, I would without a doubt state that Probe was the most synergistic card in this deck. It glued everything together and let the deck keep going. Look:
1) It flipped Delver. Now, you replace it with lands and get nothing.
2) It made immediate token from YP. Now, you can't get any value from this creature on turn 2. It means loss of needed tempo, disability to withstand Liliana and so on.
3) It helped to cast delve creatures. Now, installation of early Tasigur requires Thought Scour at minimum and it's almost impossible to cast Angler before turn 3.
4) You can no longer use Snap to get value on turn 2, which was very useful in such matchups as Tron and Valakut.
5) You can no longer turn Serum Visions into Preordain (that sounds silly, but it worked - draw, scry 2 and draw again)
6) Now, you can't support Brutality and Kommand discard modes. Just cast them by guess.
7) Without information, you also won't know what's currently better - to be aggressive or leave up counter. Aggro-Control essence of the deck is nerfed.
8) Finally, it helped to find lands, threats and answers quicker. There is no more playable cantrip to use.
I won't talk about nonsense of this ban here, but deck definitely becomes clunkier and less consistent, at least with the current build. If you analyse upcoming metagame, there will be nothing to rejoice too. I personally have no more interest to participate in this format - format, where U/R spell is banned 3rd year in a row. Format, where watching opponent's hand in exchange for 2 life on turn 2 is illegal, but putting 4/4 beater while still watching the hand AND exiling any card on the same turn 2 is okay.
Cut is the latest removal I'd cut (lol). Being singleton in this deck it already kills every creature for 90% of times. Also helps with Tasigur activations and dodges Inquisition of Kozilek and Eidolon damage.
Push is gamechanger without a doubt, but it doesn't push (lol x2) our deck as, for example, it does to Junk and BGu variants, which had no access to cheap efficient removal earlier. I can see playing it in Grixis as a 1 or 2-offs, but again, it doesn't improve Tron, Eldrazi and Shift matchups at all, and in slower meta those decks will be at the forefront.
Being able to cast stuff t1 without taking damage is huge in many matchups, and coming in tapped later rarely matters due to the low cost of our deck
I'll add that this is true mostly for Spirebluff Canal, because we don't play discard or other black spells t1. Darkslick Shores has the same problems as Sulfur Falls - being in starting hand alone against aggro causes us to mulligan, and paired with fetch/shock makes us lose 1-3 life anyway in order to cast Bolt t1. What about lategame, southsidemagic, of course ***** can happen, but most likely by that time fastland will already be on the table / scried to the bottom / discarded to Brutality.
I'm very sceptical about maindecked Brutality too. How this card performs for you guys? I know it can be epic against burn and infect, but outside of that seems to be just a bad duress, no?
I also don't understand why we consider playing Darkslick Shores or Sulfur Falls when UR fastland is finally here. Someone was even testing a copy instead of basic mountain, what are the results?
Last, what is people opinions on a singleton squall MD?
Feels perfect when it hits the target. But during testings I often found myself in a spot where I'd better have Leak or Remand. Sitting with 2 mana open and not being able to counter their creature threat is huge tempo loss.
Also, I think that Collective Brutality is not mainboard card. It does nothing against Tron&stuff and in general isn't as versatile as, for example, Kollaghan's Command. On the other hand, metagame is so aggressive right now that we can close eyes on that.
One final flex choice question I have for you all is 2 k commands mainboard. I can see drawing 2 as being clunky against fast decks, but we often play a second in the sb anyway. Is it so clunky that we can't run 2 main and use that now free sideboard slot for a strong anti aggro card? Is that a metagame decision or just bad deckbuilding? Thanks!
I think it's totally correct to run 2 copies mainboard. We side it in 90% of games anyway, so why not open the slot. What about fast decks - we already have resources to spend during first turns (I mean bolts/terminates, spell snares/mana leaks etc) and Kommand is usually "control shot" against them - qualitive 2-1, which turns game in our favour.
Grafdigger's Cage. Shutters Nahiri ult, Snaps (ours too, but that's SB card anyway); Collected Company, Chord, Finks/Redcap recursion; Goryo's Vengeance - and all for 1 mana. Also useful against random graveyard decks.
And what about Venser - just play Cryptic if you want this type of slot. It's more flexible and synergistic with our creatures. I started playing singleton and never looked back.
Yea, we don't have Leyline of Sanctity available to us, but this comes pretty close. From the SB, this could come in for black based dicard, "IOK me? I IOK you!". It's a 1 card 12 point life swing if you counter a Lightning Helix aimed at our face. Kommand to retrieve your Goyf and target me for discard? I got bad news for you. Spell Mastery is easy peasy for us, which means just about any spell thrown at our face, we'll be able to counter it- and then throw it right back at them.
Redirect is 99% times better. You should have seen the face of Grixis Control player, when I drew 3 cards with his Ancestral Vision It's also great and unexpected SB card against Jund/Junk and Burn.
It isn't obvious at all lol. Ad Nauseam's strong performances over the years? Don't make everyone laugh pls. It has always been a fringe deck, which never raised above tier 2. Just look at the current metagame:
Terrible? Print sth like:
and we'll see how it's terrible. I keep silent about one-mana cantrip which shows you 5(!) topdecks and gives one immediately.
Jace is interesting, but he doesn't help against aggro at all. He also won't prevent big mana decks from smashing Ulamog or Valakut on the following turn. So, blue just needs ways to find answers! Preordain would really help Tempo and Control decks with that. Combo? What are you talking about lol? Splinter Twin is banned, rituals are banned, Gitaxian Probe is banned. Ad Nauseam and Cheeri0s are already mentioned above. Combo is probably in the same coffin as reactive decks.
For me real cornercase scenario regarding Probe is, I don't know, drawing scried topdeck after mulligan on the play with no other lands in hand except fetches. But it wasn't even mentioned in the list above. Those interactions were natural by themselves and gave pressure and knowledge in every matchup, outside of aggro. And even there you could just cycle the card for mana. That's why it was awesome.
Man, it's competitive deck and competitive forum. "Cornercase scenarios" matter a lot. And claiming that they never happen just shows how unexperienced with the deck you are. Because they happen every time you have Probe and sth mentioned above to interact. Otherwise, you just cycle it with U, yes. By your logic, fetchlands can be abandoned as well. They force to pay 1 life, go to the grave and interact with only 7-8 cards in the deck. Can easily be removed lol.
BTW, nobody says the world is falling. I just wanted to add up that by this ban our deck lost tons of lines to play and got nothing in return, except for worse metagame. Unfortunately, Push doesn't seem to be panacea too. And Wizards once again showed their attitude to the format. Instead of methodical unbanning and printing hate pieces in newer sets, they just prefer to cut controversial cards, simultaneously killing couple of decks and dealing collateral damage to others. No one playable card is safe, even if there are stronger and more degenerate options out there. Of course, it's just my opinion.
Yeah, I think it was result of very aggressive metagame and desire to test new cards like Brutality in this slot. Most decks still ran 3 copies though.
First of all, this ban weakens Infect and kills Suicide Zoo, two of our best matchups.
Next. Having been playing Delver in different variations for almost 3 years, I would without a doubt state that Probe was the most synergistic card in this deck. It glued everything together and let the deck keep going. Look:
1) It flipped Delver. Now, you replace it with lands and get nothing.
2) It made immediate token from YP. Now, you can't get any value from this creature on turn 2. It means loss of needed tempo, disability to withstand Liliana and so on.
3) It helped to cast delve creatures. Now, installation of early Tasigur requires Thought Scour at minimum and it's almost impossible to cast Angler before turn 3.
4) You can no longer use Snap to get value on turn 2, which was very useful in such matchups as Tron and Valakut.
5) You can no longer turn Serum Visions into Preordain (that sounds silly, but it worked - draw, scry 2 and draw again)
6) Now, you can't support Brutality and Kommand discard modes. Just cast them by guess.
7) Without information, you also won't know what's currently better - to be aggressive or leave up counter. Aggro-Control essence of the deck is nerfed.
8) Finally, it helped to find lands, threats and answers quicker. There is no more playable cantrip to use.
I won't talk about nonsense of this ban here, but deck definitely becomes clunkier and less consistent, at least with the current build. If you analyse upcoming metagame, there will be nothing to rejoice too. I personally have no more interest to participate in this format - format, where U/R spell is banned 3rd year in a row. Format, where watching opponent's hand in exchange for 2 life on turn 2 is illegal, but putting 4/4 beater while still watching the hand AND exiling any card on the same turn 2 is okay.
Push is gamechanger without a doubt, but it doesn't push (lol x2) our deck as, for example, it does to Junk and BGu variants, which had no access to cheap efficient removal earlier. I can see playing it in Grixis as a 1 or 2-offs, but again, it doesn't improve Tron, Eldrazi and Shift matchups at all, and in slower meta those decks will be at the forefront.
I'll add that this is true mostly for Spirebluff Canal, because we don't play discard or other black spells t1. Darkslick Shores has the same problems as Sulfur Falls - being in starting hand alone against aggro causes us to mulligan, and paired with fetch/shock makes us lose 1-3 life anyway in order to cast Bolt t1. What about lategame, southsidemagic, of course ***** can happen, but most likely by that time fastland will already be on the table / scried to the bottom / discarded to Brutality.
I also don't understand why we consider playing Darkslick Shores or Sulfur Falls when UR fastland is finally here. Someone was even testing a copy instead of basic mountain, what are the results?
Feels perfect when it hits the target. But during testings I often found myself in a spot where I'd better have Leak or Remand. Sitting with 2 mana open and not being able to counter their creature threat is huge tempo loss.
Also, I think that Collective Brutality is not mainboard card. It does nothing against Tron&stuff and in general isn't as versatile as, for example, Kollaghan's Command. On the other hand, metagame is so aggressive right now that we can close eyes on that.
It's basically Counterspell for
I think it's totally correct to run 2 copies mainboard. We side it in 90% of games anyway, so why not open the slot. What about fast decks - we already have resources to spend during first turns (I mean bolts/terminates, spell snares/mana leaks etc) and Kommand is usually "control shot" against them - qualitive 2-1, which turns game in our favour.
BTW, congratulations on coming back to Tier2!
And what about Venser - just play Cryptic if you want this type of slot. It's more flexible and synergistic with our creatures. I started playing singleton and never looked back.
Redirect is 99% times better. You should have seen the face of Grixis Control player, when I drew 3 cards with his Ancestral Vision