So if you put another (Rack) card in the deck, how do you plan to keep up with the discard? The Rack, Shrieking Affliction, and other cards mentioned (Nezumi Shortfang, and Lavaborn Muse) aren't discard spells. Nezumi Shortfang is but it's slow and more vulnerable than using Scepter of Fugue and it's unlikely it will flip, if so you'd rather it be a Shrieking Affliction or Rack. When I was testing him, it was bummer when he would flip cause the best thing about Nezumi is he can activate his ability on your opponent's turn. The fact that he flips is what makes him unworthy of the slot.
However every time you draw them, your opponent can just hold an extra card in there hand. Which with enough missed discard draws, they will soon be safely out of Rack range, and very easily Shrieking Affliction range. So the more cards like this you add, the weaker the deck becomes.
Another thing is you WANT all your opponents Path to Exiles, Dismembers, etc etc to be dead draws. You don't want to trade 1 card (A creature) for 1 card in your opponents hand which otherwise would be worthless to them. Unless of course you play something like Ravenous Rats, in which if they do use a creature-kill spell: Ravenous Rats = Wrench Mind (w/o the artifact clause). Also they generally don't want to get pinged for 1 damage every turn (still is speeding up the clock) so they will need a creature to defend. In our book when an opponent plays a creature with this card, 2 for 1.
The top 3 creatures for this deck in my opinion are Ravenous Rats, Rotting Rats, and Augur of Skulls. Other notable creatures are Hypnotic Specter, and Oona's Prowler, but they contradict the requirement of making your opponent's kill spells dead cards but still have the effect you want otherwise.
I dont see where the need for a aggro creature is. That is not how this deck kills your opponent. Adding creatures that dont come with an inherent ability that aids in your goal of creating some sort of hand advantage are just another 1 for 1 trade. 1 for 1 trades (aside from you getting to choose with cards like thoughtseize, iok) are bad cause you will fall behind as you wont draw a discard every turn even with ravens crime. So I dont understand the need for creatures like mentioned. It also goes against the best defense the deck has, ensnaring bridge.
I feel its more of "2 different things" to try and run Bloodghast next to Raven's Crime because they are clearly competing with each other. Swiftspear is happy for you to retrace that raven's crime... even against an empty handed opponent.
Haha. No I wouldn't run them both in the same deck obviously. Doubt Bloodghast will make it without an Entomb in Modern. Maybe they will reprint it, Jarad's Orders is just too costly at 4.
I got a playset of Tarmogoyf for 50 cents when Future Sight first came out cause he was so underrated. I got a couple just in drafts as he was always passed on. Funny looking back cause he goes for $150 now.
I understand the theory on how your idea works, not saying it's bad idea. I like the idea of using discard with Swiftspear, but yeah not with Bridge. Just wondering how it actually plays out is all. I mean I can say this (as an example scenario) for my deck...
Turn 1: drop a land, (anything)
Turn 2: drop a land, play Liliana's Caress
Turn 3: drop a land, play Liliana's Caress, followed by Inquisition or Thoughtseize (opponent loses 4 Life)
Turn 4: drop a land, play any 1CC discard (opponent loses 4 Life), play Delirium Skeins (opponent loses 12 Life, GG)
In Theory, it's a turn 4 kill but it's doesn't always play out like that. Obviously. So I get on turn 3, you can do up to 6 damage if you bolt your opponent. I just see a good possibility of there being a lack of synergy because your trying to do "what looks like 2 different things". If your not consistently attacking your opponents hand and you need to kill critters with your removal, The Rack and Shrieking Affliction doesn't seem to have that synergy I am referring to. I don't know, that is why I was asking.
In theory, it sounds like a good strat harKOrr. However, that only goes so far. How does it play out? Looking at it and what your trying to do, The Rack and Shrieking Affliction seem like dead draws. Those cards are great but they require a dedicated deck strategy: The constant assault on your opponents hand to make them worthy of a slot. You got 24 cards not including lands that don't assault your opponents hand. Aside from Wrench Mind, none equal better than a 1 for 1 trade. So it's not gonna be hard for your opponent to hold 3 cards against you or get one through to kill your Swiftspear.
That is about the only defense you got too, so how do you survive their assault against you? Having 20 lands in your deck means it's going to be unlikely that you have the mana to kill a opponents critter, prowess swift, and swing in for decent damage. If you do, your not disrupting there hand.
Looking at it, the synergy just isn't up to par. But that is what testing is for...
I don't get what people think they are getting from Swiftspear. Awesome card but goes against the entire strategy of the deck. Maybe confused about the attack step since she is a 1/2 so she would normally get underneath Bridge. She won't unless you have 2 cards in your hand when you declare an attack if you plan on using her Prowess ability. You can't attack and then play something like Thoughseize so she gets the +1/+1 and still get the attack through. You can only play Instants and abilities during the Declare attackers step, not Sorceries. So if you play thoughtseize during your main phrase with her on the table, if you don't have at least 2 cards in hand, you can't attack. So I don't understand...
The way I play my deck, I could possibly manage it but I still wouldn't use her over Rats, nor Bloodghast. Just saying.
3 Ravenous Rats (I am also testing out Bloodghast, my other favorite card for this deck. Bitterblossom is often slotted here as well)
2 Extirpate 3 Thoughtseize 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 The Rack 4 Mindstab (2 of these dropped early usually spells doom for my opponent, best case turn 1 and 4) 4 Wrench Mind 4 Liliana's Caress (I prefer this to Shrieking Affliction right now because it is guaranteed damage) 3 Delirium Skeins (I don't have Liliana, but I am pretty happy with this card in her place. Almost always a one-sided 3 for 1, and a little more tempo) 4 Ensnaring Bridge 3 Mutilate (Been testing Curse of the Cabal in this spot as well, meh results but depends on the deck your playing against. I miss Pox)
Sorry I don't have links as I haven't posted 5 times yet :(. I am still tweaking the deck as I have just recently put it together and I still have a bunch of cards I want to test. I am going to give Raven's Crime another shot and I am also looking at Haunting Echos in place of Extripate. Just as 2 things that are on my agenda.
I just recently got back into the Modern format in Magic, been playing mostly Casual Commander and some Legacy. My favorite Legacy deck was my Rack deck (been playing it for years) so I figured I would build one for Modern. I stumbled across this site just wondering what everyone else was playing. I noticed that the general consensus is this strategy is dead because of cards like Abrupt Decay, Treasure Cruise, and Dig through Time.
A short story. I went to the local card shop one of the gentlemen there was playing a U/R/W delver deck. We agreed to play and he quickly noticed what I was playing and smiled. After the first round 2-0, he stopped smiling. We did a rematch, 2-0 again and I can say in only 1 of the 4 games did I start the game with a distinctive better draw. I have played the deck several times and some of the other top decks since and had good results and against good players or at least players equally as skilled as myself. So it's not me testing against lesser skilled opponents...
First, I would like to clarify that my deck is not an 8Rack deck as I don't use Shrieking Affliction. My strategy also isn't to just to dump my hand as quickly as possible so that not even my opponent's 1 power creatures can attack. From my years of experience from playing this type of deck, it's about creating hand advantage not in number of cards but number of cards that will influence the game's outcome.
Ensnaring bridge is at its best when it is slowing down your opponent and causing them to answer. It is not a card that can reliably create a board lock against your opponent even with a dedicated discard package. Freely use your discard spells, but don't use a Mutilate or Extripate just to dump the last card in your hand if it doesn't have a worthy target. I generally hold 2-3 cards in my hand with Bridge on the table. Saying that, even in a meta with Abrupt decay and other cards that can kill it, it is still a very powerful card that forces your opponent into a difficult decision that you can use to your advantage.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to play Magic or how they should play the 8Rack deck. I am simply describing my thought process with this strat so the following statements may make more sense. Although my deck doesn't follow this threads 8Rack strat to verbatim, it does include the same idea of discard strat and what I have found working against the common Tier modern decks. I do win in other ways, but Death to Rack is one way.
I am going to have to disagree with the addition of Raven's Crime. In the original 8rack build/strategy it is great but now it hurts more than it helps. You don't want to give your opponent the choice on a 1v1 trade. Worse imo is justifying a deck capped at 3 mana so you can get a potential softlock with this card. It's not a bad card as I really do like it, it is just completely out-classed right now. Better to use Duress verse giving your opponent the choice cause if they have 2 or more cards in there hand and they have a Abrupt Decay, a Treasure Cruise, or a Dig through Time. They are not going to discard the better card.
If you want to lock out your opponent, run Funeral Charm attached to Isochron Scepter. Then once you empty their hand, they don't even get to play the card they just drew as long as you have 2 mana open. I have build this deck and it is fun but about as reliable as a Raven's crime lock.
I run only one creature in this strategy. Ravenous Rats. It is extremely under-rated and over-looked. At worst, it's a 1 for 1 if they counter it which most wont and that still benefits you. It's Path's best friend in this meta, your opponent loses 2 cards you lose nothing. It can serve as a blocker and sometimes a little bit of damage. I have played with both Pack Rat and Tombstalker. Tombstalker is a 1 for 1 almost always. Pack Rat is great but I employ a different strat, like I said hand advantage and most of the time Pack Rat is a 1 for 1. I don't like discarding my cards, even lands as Mutilate gets more powerful with each Swamp.
Which brings me to the next card: Extripate >>>>>>> Surgical Extraction. Surgical Extraction is a great SB card for non-black decks. Extripate even though it costs you a black verse phyrexian mana is far superior. If you don't run the Raven's Crime engine, you'll likely have the left over swamp to pay for it. It literally A-Bombs everything in the meta and nothing stops it. Snapcaster is hosed of his effect, even if they had pact of negation in there hand. Rip there Dig or treasure cruise from their hand and remove it from game without the worry of it getting countered. Get rid of Abrupt Decay and run your deck with impunity. It should be MB not SB.
Next is extremely crucial. A good player will hoard cards to stay out of rack range. They also know you won't draw a discard card every draw step even with the Raven's Crime engine. Like a board control deck needs a Damnation, Wrath of God, etc. A Hand control deck needs a hand sweep card. I used Mind Twist in my legacy deck. It's not modern legal but Mind Shatter is. Costs 1 more, although it has worked for me so far.
As it is talked about a lot, I will offer my opinion on it. Waste Not does not belong in this deck period.
When it comes to Leyline of Sanctity, I splash Green. I play a set of Verdent Catacombs maindeck, 1 forest SB with Krosan's grip. Split second is huge with the amount of counter play. Noxious revival is also a card worth looking at, you lose a draw step playing it but it can save your important pieces in case they get hit with removal. Or how I use it to maximum effect, recall extripate and keep removing the cards that hurt you. The good thing about this strat is most decks only have a few cards in their deck you have to worry about. Worth playtesting for your style, but Bitterblossom plus Thoughtseize can make it hurt.
Anyway I hope this gives somebody some ideas to incorporate with the 8rack deck if they are having problems and enjoy this style of Magic as much as I do. GL
However every time you draw them, your opponent can just hold an extra card in there hand. Which with enough missed discard draws, they will soon be safely out of Rack range, and very easily Shrieking Affliction range. So the more cards like this you add, the weaker the deck becomes.
Another thing is you WANT all your opponents Path to Exiles, Dismembers, etc etc to be dead draws. You don't want to trade 1 card (A creature) for 1 card in your opponents hand which otherwise would be worthless to them. Unless of course you play something like Ravenous Rats, in which if they do use a creature-kill spell: Ravenous Rats = Wrench Mind (w/o the artifact clause). Also they generally don't want to get pinged for 1 damage every turn (still is speeding up the clock) so they will need a creature to defend. In our book when an opponent plays a creature with this card, 2 for 1.
The top 3 creatures for this deck in my opinion are Ravenous Rats, Rotting Rats, and Augur of Skulls. Other notable creatures are Hypnotic Specter, and Oona's Prowler, but they contradict the requirement of making your opponent's kill spells dead cards but still have the effect you want otherwise.
Haha. No I wouldn't run them both in the same deck obviously. Doubt Bloodghast will make it without an Entomb in Modern. Maybe they will reprint it, Jarad's Orders is just too costly at 4.
I got a playset of Tarmogoyf for 50 cents when Future Sight first came out cause he was so underrated. I got a couple just in drafts as he was always passed on. Funny looking back cause he goes for $150 now.
I understand the theory on how your idea works, not saying it's bad idea. I like the idea of using discard with Swiftspear, but yeah not with Bridge. Just wondering how it actually plays out is all. I mean I can say this (as an example scenario) for my deck...
Turn 1: drop a land, (anything)
Turn 2: drop a land, play Liliana's Caress
Turn 3: drop a land, play Liliana's Caress, followed by Inquisition or Thoughtseize (opponent loses 4 Life)
Turn 4: drop a land, play any 1CC discard (opponent loses 4 Life), play Delirium Skeins (opponent loses 12 Life, GG)
In Theory, it's a turn 4 kill but it's doesn't always play out like that. Obviously. So I get on turn 3, you can do up to 6 damage if you bolt your opponent. I just see a good possibility of there being a lack of synergy because your trying to do "what looks like 2 different things". If your not consistently attacking your opponents hand and you need to kill critters with your removal, The Rack and Shrieking Affliction doesn't seem to have that synergy I am referring to. I don't know, that is why I was asking.
That is about the only defense you got too, so how do you survive their assault against you? Having 20 lands in your deck means it's going to be unlikely that you have the mana to kill a opponents critter, prowess swift, and swing in for decent damage. If you do, your not disrupting there hand.
Looking at it, the synergy just isn't up to par. But that is what testing is for...
The way I play my deck, I could possibly manage it but I still wouldn't use her over Rats, nor Bloodghast. Just saying.
4 Mutavault (I have used Desert and Ghost Quarter here as well. Ghost is probably my favorite cause it keeps TRON, and Colonnade in check)
4 Verdant Catacombs
12 Swamp
3 Ravenous Rats (I am also testing out Bloodghast, my other favorite card for this deck. Bitterblossom is often slotted here as well)
2 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 The Rack
4 Mindstab (2 of these dropped early usually spells doom for my opponent, best case turn 1 and 4)
4 Wrench Mind
4 Liliana's Caress (I prefer this to Shrieking Affliction right now because it is guaranteed damage)
3 Delirium Skeins (I don't have Liliana, but I am pretty happy with this card in her place. Almost always a one-sided 3 for 1, and a little more tempo)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mutilate (Been testing Curse of the Cabal in this spot as well, meh results but depends on the deck your playing against. I miss Pox)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Dragon's Claw (need better hate for RDW, but haven't found anything better. RDW is the only deck I have real issues with)
4 Bile Blight
2 Extirpate
Sorry I don't have links as I haven't posted 5 times yet :(. I am still tweaking the deck as I have just recently put it together and I still have a bunch of cards I want to test. I am going to give Raven's Crime another shot and I am also looking at Haunting Echos in place of Extripate. Just as 2 things that are on my agenda.
Deck tags added. Don't forget deck/card tags!
-ktkenshinx-
I just recently got back into the Modern format in Magic, been playing mostly Casual Commander and some Legacy. My favorite Legacy deck was my Rack deck (been playing it for years) so I figured I would build one for Modern. I stumbled across this site just wondering what everyone else was playing. I noticed that the general consensus is this strategy is dead because of cards like Abrupt Decay, Treasure Cruise, and Dig through Time.
A short story. I went to the local card shop one of the gentlemen there was playing a U/R/W delver deck. We agreed to play and he quickly noticed what I was playing and smiled. After the first round 2-0, he stopped smiling. We did a rematch, 2-0 again and I can say in only 1 of the 4 games did I start the game with a distinctive better draw. I have played the deck several times and some of the other top decks since and had good results and against good players or at least players equally as skilled as myself. So it's not me testing against lesser skilled opponents...
First, I would like to clarify that my deck is not an 8Rack deck as I don't use Shrieking Affliction. My strategy also isn't to just to dump my hand as quickly as possible so that not even my opponent's 1 power creatures can attack. From my years of experience from playing this type of deck, it's about creating hand advantage not in number of cards but number of cards that will influence the game's outcome.
Ensnaring bridge is at its best when it is slowing down your opponent and causing them to answer. It is not a card that can reliably create a board lock against your opponent even with a dedicated discard package. Freely use your discard spells, but don't use a Mutilate or Extripate just to dump the last card in your hand if it doesn't have a worthy target. I generally hold 2-3 cards in my hand with Bridge on the table. Saying that, even in a meta with Abrupt decay and other cards that can kill it, it is still a very powerful card that forces your opponent into a difficult decision that you can use to your advantage.
I am not trying to tell anyone how to play Magic or how they should play the 8Rack deck. I am simply describing my thought process with this strat so the following statements may make more sense. Although my deck doesn't follow this threads 8Rack strat to verbatim, it does include the same idea of discard strat and what I have found working against the common Tier modern decks. I do win in other ways, but Death to Rack is one way.
I am going to have to disagree with the addition of Raven's Crime. In the original 8rack build/strategy it is great but now it hurts more than it helps. You don't want to give your opponent the choice on a 1v1 trade. Worse imo is justifying a deck capped at 3 mana so you can get a potential softlock with this card. It's not a bad card as I really do like it, it is just completely out-classed right now. Better to use Duress verse giving your opponent the choice cause if they have 2 or more cards in there hand and they have a Abrupt Decay, a Treasure Cruise, or a Dig through Time. They are not going to discard the better card.
If you want to lock out your opponent, run Funeral Charm attached to Isochron Scepter. Then once you empty their hand, they don't even get to play the card they just drew as long as you have 2 mana open. I have build this deck and it is fun but about as reliable as a Raven's crime lock.
I run only one creature in this strategy. Ravenous Rats. It is extremely under-rated and over-looked. At worst, it's a 1 for 1 if they counter it which most wont and that still benefits you. It's Path's best friend in this meta, your opponent loses 2 cards you lose nothing. It can serve as a blocker and sometimes a little bit of damage. I have played with both Pack Rat and Tombstalker. Tombstalker is a 1 for 1 almost always. Pack Rat is great but I employ a different strat, like I said hand advantage and most of the time Pack Rat is a 1 for 1. I don't like discarding my cards, even lands as Mutilate gets more powerful with each Swamp.
Which brings me to the next card: Extripate >>>>>>> Surgical Extraction. Surgical Extraction is a great SB card for non-black decks. Extripate even though it costs you a black verse phyrexian mana is far superior. If you don't run the Raven's Crime engine, you'll likely have the left over swamp to pay for it. It literally A-Bombs everything in the meta and nothing stops it. Snapcaster is hosed of his effect, even if they had pact of negation in there hand. Rip there Dig or treasure cruise from their hand and remove it from game without the worry of it getting countered. Get rid of Abrupt Decay and run your deck with impunity. It should be MB not SB.
Next is extremely crucial. A good player will hoard cards to stay out of rack range. They also know you won't draw a discard card every draw step even with the Raven's Crime engine. Like a board control deck needs a Damnation, Wrath of God, etc. A Hand control deck needs a hand sweep card. I used Mind Twist in my legacy deck. It's not modern legal but Mind Shatter is. Costs 1 more, although it has worked for me so far.
As it is talked about a lot, I will offer my opinion on it. Waste Not does not belong in this deck period.
When it comes to Leyline of Sanctity, I splash Green. I play a set of Verdent Catacombs maindeck, 1 forest SB with Krosan's grip. Split second is huge with the amount of counter play. Noxious revival is also a card worth looking at, you lose a draw step playing it but it can save your important pieces in case they get hit with removal. Or how I use it to maximum effect, recall extripate and keep removing the cards that hurt you. The good thing about this strat is most decks only have a few cards in their deck you have to worry about. Worth playtesting for your style, but Bitterblossom plus Thoughtseize can make it hurt.
Anyway I hope this gives somebody some ideas to incorporate with the 8rack deck if they are having problems and enjoy this style of Magic as much as I do. GL