I like it, but I don't know if it's strong enough in the matches it's good in. I like that it's an instant, so you can get some combat trick value out of it or EOT casting for pseudo-haste.
What matches is it good in? I'd say anything that's a resource battle since it is card advantage assuming you hit two critters. I'd compare it to GSZ. It may fight with Elspeth in the 4-drop slot as well. A 4-drop needs to turn the game around. I can see this card doing that sometimes, but I don't know that our creature count is high enough to fuel it, even with 4 Brainstorms.
Bad matches? Combo or decks that don't care much about your creatures (i.e.: loads of removal or the speed to ignore them,) which remain our toughest pairings.
I'd put it in the batch of cards that are certainly not going to hurt the deck as a 1-of, but not anything that's going to make a big splash. I'm currently playing with Psionic Blast. We're short on Planeswalker removal and people just don't see 4 to the dome coming. Awesome? Not really...fun? Yep.
Well, RIP Treasure Cruise. I don't see this weakening our position much. In fact, it probably improves it because it does nerf the B/R Delver decks et. al. For the short term, I'll just be swapping in Ponders in its' place. I'll probably go down to two though to give me another slot. Thoughts from everyone else?
Thanks for the feedback, StreetMage. If you can post some vids of your (or any other good Bant) deck in action, I'd definitely watch them.
I don't do MTGO, so I'm hoping these are on YouTube. That said, I'd swap the Savannah out for the Tropical Island in a heartbeat if I had another one. I have it all in paper, so it's the $$$ that's stopping that swap. If I went to play anywhere important, I could probably bum one off of a buddy. My LGS has started doing Legacy FNM, so I can't wait to get by and run this.
For now, I'm keeping the Arbor, even without the GSZ. I've found I'm looking to fetch it in most games in order to get that surprise blocker or attacker next turn. EOT fetch and equip after a board wipe or removal storm surprises most people the first time and they're wary of it on subsequent games, sometimes even keeping a blocker when they probably shouldn't. Other than that, it's easy to tuck with a Brainstorm.
It's sad nothing more exciting came out of the last expansion. It's not even released yet and I'm meh about it...
Does anyone see any potential in any of the new Fate Reforged cards for Bant? I see Monastery Mentor as the only possible, and even that one doesn't really excite me. It obviously has some synergy with Brainstorm, Swords, etc., but the rest of our deck is reactive. Granted, the counters cast on other turns do create permanent tokens, but with only 20-24 spells in most lists I don't see it breaking any games. It also doesn't protect itself as we like our creatures to do. It also competes with our existing and solid 3-drops. It's definitely not better than TNN, Geist, or Clique.
Thoughts on that or does anyone else see potential in anything else that was spoiled?
**Edit**
Well, after saying I'll never take out Spell Pierce, I started thinking about what changes I would make if I did. I came up with the following:
I like being somewhat counter-heavy. I see the Daze and the Misdirection as direct swaps for two of the Pierces. I never really liked four Dazes as they are somewhat dead mid-late game, but the extra "Force" I think helps with an extra outlet. The extra DRS just firms up the game-plan. With that many 3-drops, the dorks are important (not telling most of you anything new here.)
I've been running Spell Pierce for quite a while and I don't see myself taking it out any time soon. It's good in nearly every match-up. I don't know about Spell Snare and Counterspell though. I'd be more prone to add a Misdirection or Flusterstorm to my board if my meta was that combo-heavy.
I've also taken out one GSZ and the Rhox War Monk for two Geist of Saint Traft to try them out. I'll post results once I get some games in.
Thanks StreetMage, I'm playing tonight and I may try that list. I'd like to find room for a third TNN and the fourth Daze in that list though. Maybe I can take out a land and a SFM.
What are everyone's thoughts on only running 3 Stoneforge Mystics? With only two equipment, I don't want to run into a dead fetch. Also, I feel that I can find them with just three copies with the 4x Brainstorm and 3x Treasure Cruise.
The other direction I may go is to drop the GSZs(sniff) and the War Monk and add the two Geists and a Shaman. That list would end up pretty close with SM's from post #462.
Ok, so I've changed it to put back in the SFM without the sword. I'll work on getting one, but getting Geists will be the priority (and easier.) I'm liking the idea of the 2/2 split with Geist/Clique and then three TNN. For now, I've left the GSZ in there, but it'll probably come out due to card space and the fact that the deck is very...unfocused at this point. Still, I'm going to try to get in a few games like this:
The 4x Wasteland/Stifle intrigues me. I'd like to see a list run with those, Judge's Familiar, and Geists since you can Stifle the leaves-play trigger to keep the angel token. Delver might work in that list as well if you push the spell count.
It's an interesting list...very similar to most of our brews (less mine because I still carry a tiny torch for GSZ.) A couple of things stick out to me:
4 Wasteland - I guess it's still pretty good even with no backup other than Daze.
1 Karakas - With no way to fetch it.
0 Treasure Cruise - Just not missing them perhaps?
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Mainboard is an uncommon choice.
I'm thinking of tweaking my list and I have a couple of questions. What is the minimum # of spells to run Delver? Is 24 enough? 28?
After playing with Nahiri for a bit, I'm on the fence about her as a commander. She's just...ok. I love the deck though. I've been looking at other possible commanders and have narrowed it down to three. What are everyone's thoughts on Cho-Manno, Revolutionary, Commander Eesha, and Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant?
Cho would be great with a Pariah's Shield or a Pariah. Making yourself indestructible is kinda coo . Eesha is great for D and for feeding people equipment with triggers, and Rune-Tail is...kinda bending the spirit of Commander but obviously good.
The Mistveil Plains is a good add and I'll try the Mask of Memory since it comes with the deck and all. Card advantage is definitely at a premium in mono-white. That Elspeth is out of the budget for the short term, but I'll keep her on the want list and trade for her if I get the chance.
I'll disagree on the Etched Champion though. A 2/2 for 3 is bad. A 2/2 unblockable, semi-indestructible, hexproof isn't. It's immune to spot removal and unblockable in a deck filled with combat trigger equipment. Sometimes you just need a body to feed those Swords (and the aforementioned Mask) to people. An invincible chump blocker in Commander isn't anything to laugh at either since so much huge and horrible stuff hits the table.
I may try to find a Mind's Eye as well. It's expensive, but would give value the rest of the game. This deck plays a chunk of artifact mana too, so it may ramp out quick.
Mom is good in any list. She's good at any point in the game, both to blank spot removal and to get your creatures through. I'd say she's even better in an exalted build since you're typically only attacking with one creature. Having just one thing unblockable is strong in a mid-game where everyone has threats out and are staring at each other, afraid to attack. Invisible Stalker comes to mind here. He'll need equipment, but he breaks a stalemate.
I wouldn't worry too much about Terminus tucking your commander. He'll spend a bit of time dead, especially with the sweep that you're playing. It's not a bad thing to wipe the board just to see what everyone's holding back for afterwards and then hit it again. You don't have any sac outlets, but I guess you could blink him with Venser in a pinch. It's crippling to some decks to lose their commanders. Yours, not so much. I run Mystical Tutor in my Derevi build just to enable Terminus. A Worldly Tutor wouldn't be a bad card either. You have several green creatures and it'll help if Rafiq does ever get shuffled in. GSZ is there as well...Natural Order too if you have one. I also forgot Treasure Cruise. This card is fantastic in every format.
What's your meta? Bribery is only as good as your opponent's decks, which means it's nearly always good enough to win. You get to pick the best of what's at the table. My favorite target is Magister Sphinx out of my buddy's Oloro deck. Most decks play at least one game-breaking creature...Blightsteel Colossus, the big Eldrazi, even just a titan or dragon is great. When in doubt, target the green player. They always have some kind of beat stick at the top of their curve. There have been threads before calling to ban it, which should tell you something.
Mucho Bueno. Bant is my true love, I started with it when Legends was in print and I've had a version of it together ever since (see the Legacy forums for my current build.)
If dualies are out of the question cost-wise, I'd say your mana base is pretty solid. I never did like the Opal Palace though. People are probably killing your commander with removal, not damage and you're probably not attacking or blocking with Rafiq unless you have to. Lands I like other than what you have are Treva's Ruins and Gemstone Mine. They work great together and if the Ruins is the last land you lay, you never miss the bounce, since you can pick up a tapped land. Maze of Ith is always solid as well.
Cards that I'm noticing are missing just because they're powerful are:
You have a huge equipment package. I'd slim it down a bit and add a Steelshaper's Gift so you can get the Sword of Grins and Giggles that the board state warrants. The Champion's Helm is pretty limited, I'd pull it.
I'll look through the list again here in a few and see if anything else comes to mind. You can check the other primers as well. Just look for the other Bant commanders (typically Jenara and Derevi) for more builds and card ideas.
After getting up and sitting back down and looking again, I'll have to agree. The Pearl Medallion is probably not needed with the other artifact ramp and I was on the fence about Godsend too. I'll comb through the list and pick some low-hanging fruit to swap out for a couple more creatures and edit this post with a new list. Blind Obedience is totally staying in though. The CIPT effects hit everyone and you gain X life for each spell, not just 1. I have an O-stone too...
My group is fine with the 'Geddon and the Cataclysm effects. The only thing I don't like is that it will always kill Nahiri. The Containment Priest is going into my Legacy deck, but it's good stuff I agree. I like the Ascension. I pulled the Boots for it.
I want something that gives flying as well. All of the equipment is kind of janky. Bladed Pinions is probably the best and even that's meh. Any suggestions?
Next on the chopping block is probably Serra Avatar. I just love that big dumb heifer so much...sniff .
This will be hard to pick apart unless you format it. Use the Deck button in the bar above the reply text box. Separate the different card types with just a space. Ctrl+A and hit the deck button. You can put headers on there too "Artifact, Land, etc." and it won't try to pick those up as a link if it doesn't match a card name. You can find someone else's deck in another thread and hit the quote button to see the syntax they used.
What matches is it good in? I'd say anything that's a resource battle since it is card advantage assuming you hit two critters. I'd compare it to GSZ. It may fight with Elspeth in the 4-drop slot as well. A 4-drop needs to turn the game around. I can see this card doing that sometimes, but I don't know that our creature count is high enough to fuel it, even with 4 Brainstorms.
Bad matches? Combo or decks that don't care much about your creatures (i.e.: loads of removal or the speed to ignore them,) which remain our toughest pairings.
I'd put it in the batch of cards that are certainly not going to hurt the deck as a 1-of, but not anything that's going to make a big splash. I'm currently playing with Psionic Blast. We're short on Planeswalker removal and people just don't see 4 to the dome coming. Awesome? Not really...fun? Yep.
I don't do MTGO, so I'm hoping these are on YouTube. That said, I'd swap the Savannah out for the Tropical Island in a heartbeat if I had another one. I have it all in paper, so it's the $$$ that's stopping that swap. If I went to play anywhere important, I could probably bum one off of a buddy. My LGS has started doing Legacy FNM, so I can't wait to get by and run this.
For now, I'm keeping the Arbor, even without the GSZ. I've found I'm looking to fetch it in most games in order to get that surprise blocker or attacker next turn. EOT fetch and equip after a board wipe or removal storm surprises most people the first time and they're wary of it on subsequent games, sometimes even keeping a blocker when they probably shouldn't. Other than that, it's easy to tuck with a Brainstorm.
It's sad nothing more exciting came out of the last expansion. It's not even released yet and I'm meh about it...
Thoughts on that or does anyone else see potential in anything else that was spoiled?
**Edit**
Well, after saying I'll never take out Spell Pierce, I started thinking about what changes I would make if I did. I came up with the following:
(I think I made a change or two other than these from the last list I posted. I'm making a lot of changes lately )
-3 Spell Pierce
+1 Daze
+1 Misdirection
+1 Deathrite Shaman
I like being somewhat counter-heavy. I see the Daze and the Misdirection as direct swaps for two of the Pierces. I never really liked four Dazes as they are somewhat dead mid-late game, but the extra "Force" I think helps with an extra outlet. The extra DRS just firms up the game-plan. With that many 3-drops, the dorks are important (not telling most of you anything new here.)
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Geist of Saint Traft
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Dryad Arbor
Spells (20)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
3x Treasure Cruise
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
Artifacts (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Karakas
1x Forest
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Plague
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm
I've also taken out one GSZ and the Rhox War Monk for two Geist of Saint Traft to try them out. I'll post results once I get some games in.
What are everyone's thoughts on only running 3 Stoneforge Mystics? With only two equipment, I don't want to run into a dead fetch. Also, I feel that I can find them with just three copies with the 4x Brainstorm and 3x Treasure Cruise.
The other direction I may go is to drop the GSZs(sniff) and the War Monk and add the two Geists and a Shaman. That list would end up pretty close with SM's from post #462.
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox War Monk
Spells (23)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce
3x Daze
3x Treasure Cruise
4x Force of Will
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Lands (19)
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Karakas
1x Forest
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Plague
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm
The 4x Wasteland/Stifle intrigues me. I'd like to see a list run with those, Judge's Familiar, and Geists since you can Stifle the leaves-play trigger to keep the angel token. Delver might work in that list as well if you push the spell count.
4 Wasteland - I guess it's still pretty good even with no backup other than Daze.
1 Karakas - With no way to fetch it.
0 Treasure Cruise - Just not missing them perhaps?
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Mainboard is an uncommon choice.
I'm thinking of tweaking my list and I have a couple of questions. What is the minimum # of spells to run Delver? Is 24 enough? 28?
I don't have a Sword of Fire and Ice. I have the Stoneforges, Batterskull, Jitte, and a Sword of Feast and Famine. Is that worth putting in in the current meta?
Cho would be great with a Pariah's Shield or a Pariah. Making yourself indestructible is kinda coo . Eesha is great for D and for feeding people equipment with triggers, and Rune-Tail is...kinda bending the spirit of Commander but obviously good.
I'll concede that Serra Avatar is mediocre. She's just so awesome with a Loxodon Warhammer.
I'll disagree on the Etched Champion though. A 2/2 for 3 is bad. A 2/2 unblockable, semi-indestructible, hexproof isn't. It's immune to spot removal and unblockable in a deck filled with combat trigger equipment. Sometimes you just need a body to feed those Swords (and the aforementioned Mask) to people. An invincible chump blocker in Commander isn't anything to laugh at either since so much huge and horrible stuff hits the table.
I may try to find a Mind's Eye as well. It's expensive, but would give value the rest of the game. This deck plays a chunk of artifact mana too, so it may ramp out quick.
I wouldn't worry too much about Terminus tucking your commander. He'll spend a bit of time dead, especially with the sweep that you're playing. It's not a bad thing to wipe the board just to see what everyone's holding back for afterwards and then hit it again. You don't have any sac outlets, but I guess you could blink him with Venser in a pinch. It's crippling to some decks to lose their commanders. Yours, not so much. I run Mystical Tutor in my Derevi build just to enable Terminus. A Worldly Tutor wouldn't be a bad card either. You have several green creatures and it'll help if Rafiq does ever get shuffled in. GSZ is there as well...Natural Order too if you have one. I also forgot Treasure Cruise. This card is fantastic in every format.
What's your meta? Bribery is only as good as your opponent's decks, which means it's nearly always good enough to win. You get to pick the best of what's at the table. My favorite target is Magister Sphinx out of my buddy's Oloro deck. Most decks play at least one game-breaking creature...Blightsteel Colossus, the big Eldrazi, even just a titan or dragon is great. When in doubt, target the green player. They always have some kind of beat stick at the top of their curve. There have been threads before calling to ban it, which should tell you something.
If dualies are out of the question cost-wise, I'd say your mana base is pretty solid. I never did like the Opal Palace though. People are probably killing your commander with removal, not damage and you're probably not attacking or blocking with Rafiq unless you have to. Lands I like other than what you have are Treva's Ruins and Gemstone Mine. They work great together and if the Ruins is the last land you lay, you never miss the bounce, since you can pick up a tapped land. Maze of Ith is always solid as well.
Cards that I'm noticing are missing just because they're powerful are:
Overall, your creature pool is light. I'd try to get closer to 25 and drop a few of the enchantment/equipment cards. They're no good without a body. Cut Eel Umbra, Holy Mantle, Spectra Ward (try Flickering Ward) and Copy Enchantment. Shield of the Oversoul is good though (and protects a bit against getting 2/1'd. Your Sovereigns of Lost Alara are screaming for an Eldrazi Conscription. I like good ol' Control Magic as well.
The only creature that sticks out to me is the Putrefax. It's not too hot unless you're sitting on a Berserk. Other creatures to consider are: Sublime Archangel, Silverblade Paladin, Mother of Runes, Trygon Predator, Stonehewer Giant, Jenara, Asura of War (also a great Commander) and Peacekeeper. The first two are definitely good if you're going with the Exalted theme. Dueling Grounds is great here as well.
You have a huge equipment package. I'd slim it down a bit and add a Steelshaper's Gift so you can get the Sword of Grins and Giggles that the board state warrants. The Champion's Helm is pretty limited, I'd pull it.
I'll look through the list again here in a few and see if anything else comes to mind. You can check the other primers as well. Just look for the other Bant commanders (typically Jenara and Derevi) for more builds and card ideas.
**Edit**
Ok, here goes version 1.1:
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Creatures (21)
1 Mother of Runes
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Leonin Shikari
1 Puresteel Paladin
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Etched Champion
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sublime Archangel
1 Indomitable Archangel
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Sun Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Angel of the Dire Hour
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Serra Avatar
Equipment (12)
1 Skullclamp
1 Masterwork of Ingenuity
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Batterskull
1 Argentum Armor
1 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Grim Monolith
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Scroll Rack
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Oblivion Stone
Instants (5)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Dispatch
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
Sorceries (8)
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Revoke Existence
1 Cataclysm
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Armageddon
1 Terminus
1 Final Judgment
Enchantments (5)
1 Land Tax
1 Blind Obedience
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Crackdown
1 True Conviction
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
Lands (35)
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Kor Haven
1 Temple of the False God
1 Buried Ruin
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
21 Plains
Some update notes: I took out the Fireshrieker for the Jitte (totally spaced that one,) the Council's Judgment for the Cataclysm, Godsend and Pearl Medallion for the Weathered Wayfarer and the Ranger of Eos...something else for the Eternal Dragon.
My group is fine with the 'Geddon and the Cataclysm effects. The only thing I don't like is that it will always kill Nahiri. The Containment Priest is going into my Legacy deck, but it's good stuff I agree. I like the Ascension. I pulled the Boots for it.
I want something that gives flying as well. All of the equipment is kind of janky. Bladed Pinions is probably the best and even that's meh. Any suggestions?
Next on the chopping block is probably Serra Avatar. I just love that big dumb heifer so much...sniff .
Stolen from another thread: Remember the Fallen and Trading Post for recursion. I also have an Argivian Archaeologist. Thoughts on which is the best? Trading Post is reusable and is what I'm leaning towards.
Quick one: -1 Eel Umbra +1 Umezawa's Jitte. For realz.