So I need to adjust to using fatties and swinging in with brute force for the win? Rawr!!! fear my timmy It's kid stuff Then again magic is sort of...aimed at certain target audiences.
All cuteness aside, yes maybe I should buy into Legacy and Vintage. I have been pricing decks to create and there is a healthy Legacy community in my area. Many of my friends play Modern, but even looking at those decks, I can' help but see the lack of control in that meta. However, If I would have to play big creatures turn after turn, then I would probably feel like that would reduce my IQ a little. So forgive me if I prefer to sit back and think a little. If my only choices are to smash and smash...well then that's kinda bland don't you think?
I'm ceviche guy, and I do like Escargo too! :q Green always felt like a burger and fries kinda of deal. You know?
Standard is meh, dominated by Green, which in my mind = fatties and Timmy's!! WHenever I see a ramp/deck I think back to the days of Propaganda and Ensnaring Bridge. I remember Winter Orb and Maze of Ith. The fact that Green is the power house color is leading my to think that magic has lost it's intellectual allure. Creatures are better than spells, and seeing decks that run 30 something creatures reminds me of drinking coffee with way to much sugar. I think the critical thinking component is lost when all you do is cast cast fatty after fatty. That is standard right now, big dragons, Rhinos with lightning helix's attatched, and saying "Okay Combat Step". Midrange is an arch type and "tempo" is the "buzz" word. I've piloted Abzan and Green...it feels like I can eat a pizza get fat and still win at the same time, I don't have to think except which creature is going to bash my opponents face in. YEAH!!! SMASH!
As a person that enjoys the fine arts and critical thinking, I think it's sad that the overall difficulty of MTG has diminished that much. Creatures are now the main building blocks of decks? I've even be put off by modern and buying into it. Midrange is what we used to call Ernie decks in high school. Erhangaddeon I think it was called, sure it was cute.
I'm not sure it's worth it to "invest" in Esper right now. I traded for my Ojutai's and bought 2 when they weren't so stupidly priced. If you played U/B before hand then you should have 95% of the components save for the Dragons and Dragon package.
If you're going to run control at a competitive FNM, I would practice and get to know match ups. The dynamics of a duel and the level of play needed to pilot a control deck like U/B is high. My best results happened after weeks of playing it, meaning over 15-20 matches with the same list (and some testing on my own at home). I got know the SB and understand which cards did what and what I needed in specific situations. The U/B Dragonless Control is stronger but super hard to pilot well. Your ability to read the game, understand what you are playing against, and read your opponent have to spot on. I think playing against someone who's right in front of you makes your decision making even harder. That means you as the control player need to leverage your resources, cards, and board that much more efficiently. Most experienced players will sequence their threats as to not run them into your counter magic, and removal. With Esper Dragons, you can at least get a blocker out, and start swinging, thereby closing the game out earlier, meaning less time for the opponent to get back into the game. With your U/B list you have to lock them down and then focus on winning.
So, I think your U/B control list is good, I think you're going to lose a lot more before your start winning with it, 2-2 is a decent start. Keep playing it bro You'll get to know your build and it's merits and flaws. You'll also see if it's really the best option for the current meta as well. I'm be waiting to read your report! I'm a fan of FNM reports, so I'll be waiting and hoping you do well sir!
yikes... Sorry Axman, then you know what to expect
You need to consider a few things, Vault is great at buying you time. If you are able to get an early Vault out, most players will not play much of anything until you activate it. By that time you should have counters up and removal to answer their threats. It deals with Mastery, and exiles creatures and permanents that could otherwise return via graveyard effects. Ugin does the same except he doesn't hit colorless. So...there's a trade off. Vault will exile our stuff as well so it's risky. Still, we have very ways to deal with Enchantments that aren't creatures, so at least a Vault could go a long way.
Axman have you tested against the company deck by chance? I just asking because I have and am struggling to get a footing on that match up, Killax mentioned that "if you miss land drops then it's a deaths sentence"
I like Ugin too, personally one of my fav cards (lore, flavor, art) but it does cost 8 and I have moments when casting him did not wipe the board of everything (Manifests, Morph) so it's a toss up between him and Vault. Ugin is a win con, Vault isn't, it's a stabilizer that costs 4+5= 9 to get going.
Just depends on what you think will show up more, Starcity is pushing Green, a ton, Abzan this, Megamorph, Rhino..veyr little blue anywhere in sight. If G/R dragons comes back I think that's a much better meta for Esper as it has the advantage in the long game.
Axman, where's your deck list? Will you running Straight U/B? Or U/Bx? Ugin is being cut by many control players recently, if you are going the traditional control I think you'll need him. Anticipate isn't that bad in 2's, if can help get you "something". It's not "good" but looking at we have to work with for card draw it's a necessary component. You'll need Vaults, actually I think you'll need at least 1, I run 2 in my 75, and I have dropped Ugin.
Good luck Axman, I would prepare for:
Company Decks (Disdainful Stroke) (This is a rough match up, gotta hit the land drops if not...lights out)
Raptor Den Protector package (Vaults, Silence the Den Protector ! lol)
Abzan Variations (Ashiok, depending on the Version)
Mono Red (Drowns, Blights)
As for everything, I think...we have a match up or decent? Mardu...if that shows up in numbers Esper will be in for a rough day. I think the Dragon version is easier to deal with than the Token/Aggro version.
Funny, we have rough match ups but I think after SB it can favor us, still aggro is coming back in force 4 Foul-Tongue Invocation is going to put in a lot of work.
I thought it was a good article to add to the thread, figured it would get us thinking about it. I;m going to throw the deck together and test it a few times. Esper isn't really a thing anymore in my meta, lots of control have switched over to Abzan in the last few weeks. I'm one of the only ones still trying. Rough spot to be in as Green is just good right now, and blue is...well it's blue IN that, the Color Blue as I remember it way back in 06 and before has been nerfed a bit. At least this is what I'm seeing being a returning player.
Issues my own friends have had with the deck is keeping up the pressure certain decks can pile on, since Abzan is big in my meta that match up seems to be 50/50? I'm not sure but it's really frustrating to play well, stabilize and have your Abzan opponent top deck a few Rhino that enter the battlefield and deal 3. I've lost to that so much
It's good but Mogis and fanatic also put the in work. Either one of those 3 drops can get in those extra points of damage. Sacking champion to deal damage and net life is reach beyond the combat step. Is direct damage that B/W doesn't currently have in standard. I'm all for arashin but in 2 s or 3s. I'm going to run the deck again in a few weeks, should be fun. In testing the deck has been great. Not tier 1, I don't know if the right players take notice it might get more coverage. As of now it's not unheard of for warriors or humans to show up anymore.
hey all new info up on CFB about updating the Esper Dragons Deck. New Tech:
Monastery Mentor <---Now this is a 100% Control/Tempo Card we need to keep up. And it's a Win con alongside our Dragons, keeps the Counter Dragon deck alive.
I think the best Overall deck is any Abzan Variant. Many of my friends have shifted to Abzan, as their variants have very few if any bad match ups. I've never heard an Abzan pilot say "I'm not looking forward to X Match up", instead they say, "It's always 50/50, I'm not worried". That's the truth. All other decks have to gear up and prepare for that match up and it's variations on Siege Rhino.
This is true...sometimes thought I feel like I get into positions when I'm on a life line. I'm sure I'm not playing the deck to it's highest potential, so I need to actually play with it more. I backed off playing it last night at the Win a Box, and went with Atarka red...results got wrecked! Funny thing, I lost to Esper Never found more than 2 lands, or I flooded. Not a place to complain but maybe the MTG gods got mad at me switching gears last minute. I'll start playing the deck more in Tournaments this weekend. I also run B/W Warriors and that's fun too. I think as a control player we have to Pilot more decks in order to understand how to beat themm it makes playing control that much harder.
The questions Axman, are we losing because our deck isn't fast enough? If that's the case the mana base needs to be reworked...CFB had an alternate mana base here:
Biggest mistakes on my end are Casting Ojutai to chump block...but sometimes you really have no choice. I mean, swing, get the anticipate, and try to find something. I had a lot of frineds tell me "wait", and others say, no "he had too, he was dead in 2 turns". So...in games I go with my gut and if my gut says, "hey dude, you gonna get wrecked, so do something" then I go into chess mode and try to find the best play to prevent damage or find an answer. Collected Brutality gives a control player another X x 2 variable to deal with...I guess we need to adjust out playing style again.
Axman, and that sir (missing land drops) is what has screwed me over too many times. If you do not get to 5 and have 2-3 mana up to do stuffs... it gets out of hand. Which you know, might make a case for more MB Anticipate. I can get behind this in my MB now, if it means finding untapped lands, or just a land. I played against the Temur versin, and Savage Knuckleblade is the nuts! Oh so good, but it's like damn man "Hurt me so good" lol.
Arashin is...the awesome. You should add that card, hands down, belongs in the MB 60. Strikeleader...eh..by T4 I think you want to be closing the game out, maybe he can fit that bill, you'll have to play test the deck. Have you yet? I like Boob of Erebos, not sure about it in this deck, but the extra +2 +0 and regenerate can blanket destroy effects. Pain Seer, while not a warrior, that card can give the deck some much needed card draw, yeah I like your angle, I'd drop the spears and up my threat count thought. Warriors seems to be a deck that works better when you get more dudes out to increase each cards synergistic capabilities. On the field effects is what Tribal is all about.
I tested my Esper Dragons build it's been..okay, not dominating at all but okay. A few other Esper dragon players in my meta are having issues. Need to move back to Vaults in the main, and find a better way to deal with the new nut aggro card: Collected Company. No longer are we safe to Anticipate EoT, no longer are we safe to DTT EoT, they have a response and if that Response is done at the end of out turn or to one of our actions it sucks...That card is so good, it makes playing control really hard. Full control might be the better option now, pre dragons style.
1 deck did make top 8 at SCG open though, that guy knew what he was doing, but Abzan + company is stupid hard to keep up with, even if we make good decisions.
So I need to adjust to using fatties and swinging in with brute force for the win? Rawr!!! fear my timmy
All cuteness aside, yes maybe I should buy into Legacy and Vintage. I have been pricing decks to create and there is a healthy Legacy community in my area. Many of my friends play Modern, but even looking at those decks, I can' help but see the lack of control in that meta. However, If I would have to play big creatures turn after turn, then I would probably feel like that would reduce my IQ a little. So forgive me if I prefer to sit back and think a little. If my only choices are to smash and smash...well then that's kinda bland don't you think?
I'm ceviche guy, and I do like Escargo too! :q Green always felt like a burger and fries kinda of deal. You know?
As a person that enjoys the fine arts and critical thinking, I think it's sad that the overall difficulty of MTG has diminished that much. Creatures are now the main building blocks of decks? I've even be put off by modern and buying into it. Midrange is what we used to call Ernie decks in high school. Erhangaddeon I think it was called, sure it was cute.
If you're going to run control at a competitive FNM, I would practice and get to know match ups. The dynamics of a duel and the level of play needed to pilot a control deck like U/B is high. My best results happened after weeks of playing it, meaning over 15-20 matches with the same list (and some testing on my own at home). I got know the SB and understand which cards did what and what I needed in specific situations. The U/B Dragonless Control is stronger but super hard to pilot well. Your ability to read the game, understand what you are playing against, and read your opponent have to spot on. I think playing against someone who's right in front of you makes your decision making even harder. That means you as the control player need to leverage your resources, cards, and board that much more efficiently. Most experienced players will sequence their threats as to not run them into your counter magic, and removal. With Esper Dragons, you can at least get a blocker out, and start swinging, thereby closing the game out earlier, meaning less time for the opponent to get back into the game. With your U/B list you have to lock them down and then focus on winning.
So, I think your U/B control list is good, I think you're going to lose a lot more before your start winning with it, 2-2 is a decent start. Keep playing it bro
You need to consider a few things, Vault is great at buying you time. If you are able to get an early Vault out, most players will not play much of anything until you activate it. By that time you should have counters up and removal to answer their threats. It deals with Mastery, and exiles creatures and permanents that could otherwise return via graveyard effects. Ugin does the same except he doesn't hit colorless. So...there's a trade off. Vault will exile our stuff as well so it's risky. Still, we have very ways to deal with Enchantments that aren't creatures, so at least a Vault could go a long way.
I wouldn't cut anticipate, not entirely. Not yet.
I like Ugin too, personally one of my fav cards (lore, flavor, art) but it does cost 8 and I have moments when casting him did not wipe the board of everything (Manifests, Morph) so it's a toss up between him and Vault. Ugin is a win con, Vault isn't, it's a stabilizer that costs 4+5= 9 to get going.
Just depends on what you think will show up more, Starcity is pushing Green, a ton, Abzan this, Megamorph, Rhino..veyr little blue anywhere in sight. If G/R dragons comes back I think that's a much better meta for Esper as it has the advantage in the long game.
Good luck Axman, I would prepare for:
Company Decks (Disdainful Stroke) (This is a rough match up, gotta hit the land drops if not...lights out)
Raptor Den Protector package (Vaults, Silence the Den Protector ! lol)
Abzan Variations (Ashiok, depending on the Version)
Mono Red (Drowns, Blights)
As for everything, I think...we have a match up or decent? Mardu...if that shows up in numbers Esper will be in for a rough day. I think the Dragon version is easier to deal with than the Token/Aggro version.
Funny, we have rough match ups but I think after SB it can favor us, still aggro is coming back in force 4 Foul-Tongue Invocation is going to put in a lot of work.
Good luck man!
Issues my own friends have had with the deck is keeping up the pressure certain decks can pile on, since Abzan is big in my meta that match up seems to be 50/50? I'm not sure but it's really frustrating to play well, stabilize and have your Abzan opponent top deck a few Rhino that enter the battlefield and deal 3. I've lost to that so much
Monastery Mentor <---Now this is a 100% Control/Tempo Card we need to keep up. And it's a Win con alongside our Dragons, keeps the Counter Dragon deck alive.
article:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/one-last-esper-dragons-article/
and LSV posted as new vid of him running Esper here (always great to see pro's pilot the deck): Added Today
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-standard-esper-dragons-2/
Biggest mistakes on my end are Casting Ojutai to chump block...but sometimes you really have no choice. I mean, swing, get the anticipate, and try to find something. I had a lot of frineds tell me "wait", and others say, no "he had too, he was dead in 2 turns". So...in games I go with my gut and if my gut says, "hey dude, you gonna get wrecked, so do something" then I go into chess mode and try to find the best play to prevent damage or find an answer. Collected Brutality gives a control player another X x 2 variable to deal with...I guess we need to adjust out playing style again.
1 deck did make top 8 at SCG open though, that guy knew what he was doing, but Abzan + company is stupid hard to keep up with, even if we make good decisions.