It's nice to see WG D&T putting up results again. This list looks extremely similar to the one posted by Craig Wescoe earlier this month. It's hard to argue with though. There's just so much value that I'm tempted to try it out.
So I know this is primarily for Death & Taxes, but I just rediscovered my old GW Hatebears cards that I thought I'd lost forever. At what point does Hatebears turn into Death & Taxes with a green splash and vice versa? The archetypes are really similar, so I'm somewhat curious. The GW Hatebears thread is pretty much dead, so I'm interested to see what everyone here thinks.
Ultimately, the difference between the two decks is not in their card composition, but in their lines of play. In Legacy, Sneak and Show shares a lot of the same cards with High Tide (because they're all blue cantrips), but the decks have very different lines of play. It's the same thing for WG D&T and GW Hatebears; the decks are made up of similar cards, but D&T should give you access to control sequences in ways that Hatebears simply can't. But in turn, Hatebears gives you access to aggressive lines of play that D&T typically doesn't have access to.
Aaaah okay, gotcha. I deal with a pretty control and removal heavy meta right now, so I'm leaning more towards aggro/Bears because Taxes straight up isn't doing enough damage to kill before I get wiped or slowly picked off by removal because the creatures are so weak P/T wise.
You should watch Catmix on stream or replay. Most of his recent builds have been based on Bugler, so the creatures tend to have a power of two or less, and he's still winning with it.
Are there still some regularly D&T streamers on twitch?
Yup, there are a few streamers that regularly play D&T. Deathandcatmix streams pretty often and I think Spiderspace is taking a break. There's also a Discord channel floating around somewhere, but you'll have to wait for someone who knows more to give you a link.
So I know this is primarily for Death & Taxes, but I just rediscovered my old GW Hatebears cards that I thought I'd lost forever. At what point does Hatebears turn into Death & Taxes with a green splash and vice versa? The archetypes are really similar, so I'm somewhat curious. The GW Hatebears thread is pretty much dead, so I'm interested to see what everyone here thinks.
Ultimately, the difference between the two decks is not in their card composition, but in their lines of play. In Legacy, Sneak and Show shares a lot of the same cards with High Tide (because they're all blue cantrips), but the decks have very different lines of play. It's the same thing for WG D&T and GW Hatebears; the decks are made up of similar cards, but D&T should give you access to control sequences in ways that Hatebears simply can't. But in turn, Hatebears gives you access to aggressive lines of play that D&T typically doesn't have access to.
Hey everyone! I'm just getting into D&T with a mono white list + some eldrazi/temples. I'm still working on the sideboard (so far it just has standard stuff lie stony, RiP, and blessed alliance/burrenton forge tender). Should I just try and tweak it based on my meta.
Yes. Metagaming is very important for D&T strategies; you should tune the deck to wherever you will be playing regularly. If you want a proactive (as opposed to a reactive) E&T strategy, you should check out the Death & Staxes primer.
Also does anyone know how many TKS or reality smashers mono white E&T plays if any?
You'll want to check on the current metagame, but it used to be 3-4 TKS. The number of Reality Smashers would typically depend on the pilot, but most people either selected 0 or 2-3. Checking the metagame will be important though, because Modern is incredibly fast right now. I'm not sure if you can reliably cast Reality Smashers at the moment.
3) Mangara of corondor x2 main board not many shells run him at all why is that? (i know the combo is not as good as the legacy version but man this combo has closed out games for me so far and is fairly unexpected when you attack their manabase. The availability of 2 eldrazi displacers and 4 flicker/4 angels is pretty good.)
There's an idea bounced around this thread that we call the "The Mangara Problem" (which I believe CharonsObal coined).
Basically, the card can do some great tricks and run away with games if you're well positioned and/or a little lucky, however there are far too many instances where your opponent will simply target removal at the guy before he gets to generate any value (beyond the 1-for-1 value as a removal-magnet).
It's possible that I coined the term, although I wasn't the first person to come up with the idea.
@roguetacticss: "The Mangara Problem" is shorthand for a combination of two things: (1) it doesn't impact the board when it enters the battlefield and (2) it readily gets removed at a tempo loss. It isn't just that Mangara dies to removal (because our whole deck dies to removal); the real problem is that Mangara costs you 1 card and 3 mana worth of tempo, only to be removed by a Lightning Bolt for 1 card and 1 mana (at a 2 mana tempo loss). All of the relevant removal cards in Modern are capable of removing Mangara for value because they all cost 2 CMC or less and they all kill Mangara (as opposed to something like Restoration Angel, which may cost 4 mana, but it doesn't die to things like Lightning Bolt and Kolaghan's Command). Sure, if Mangara ever stayed on the battlefield, it could generate a lot of value, but no experienced opponent will ever let you keep it. Hence, the Mangara problem - in theory, it looks like it could be good in our deck, but in practice it isn't.
What about fiend hunter combo is it the same idea?
Fiend Hunter is a bit different because (although he can't steal a game as strongly as a multi-recycled Mangara) it is flexible enough to generally a better card even when we don't get to pull off the double-exile trick with it. Fiend Hunter can slow the bleeding by temporarily holding a Goyf in exile, it can facilitate combat tricks by removing attackers/blockers, and a 1/3 isn't a completely useless fighter on the battlefield compared to Mangara being a 1/1.
Long story short, the ceiling is higher on Mangara (compared to Fiend Hunter) but the floor is also much lower.
@roguetacticss: x1uo3yd hit the nail on the head.
Fiend Hunter almost looks like Mangara, except it has an immediate impact on the boardstate and it has a higher toughness, which pushes it out of the range of some burn spells (like Kolaghan's Command). Fiend Hunter's downside is that it can cause blowouts during your attack phase because if your opponent can remove it at instant speed, then he or she will get back a presumably relevant blocker. But the fact that Fiend Hunter generates value immediately is a large part of what makes it playable relative to Mangara.
This is distilled from years of trial and error and literally hundreds of posts by players on this thread, just like the generally accepted belief that 23 lands is optimal in this deck.
With respect to 23 lands being optimal for this deck, your mileage may vary. I have mathematical evidence (i.e., probabilistic evidence) to suggest that 22 or 21 lands would be better, but this depends a lot on your utility land suite, your appetite for mana screw, and your creature curve.
In general, if you: (1) plan on sacrificing a lot of lands throughout the course of a game, (2) have an aversion to losing to your own manabase, or (3) have a 3-drop or 4-drop heavy curve, then you should probably increase your land count to whatever makes you feel the most comfortable. I've seen successful lists with 23 and 24 lands, but I'm no longer surprised by the decks running 21 either.
With respect to the skewing your creature curve to sit on a particular number, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The creature curve moves around to reflect what it takes to be competitive in the current metagame. Sometimes we have to be aggressive (i.e., have more 1-drops and 2-drops that apply pressure) and sometimes we have to be more controlling (i.e., have more 3-drops and 4-drops that generate value). Historically, Vial always went up to 3 because Flickerwisp is one of the most busted instant-speed interactions in our deck. So to your point, it does make some intuitive sense to run other 3 CMC cards because they can come in at instant speed while you're holding a Flickerwisp in your hand. However, when the metagame is fast, we have to adjust to it. In a fast metagame, Vial becomes a card that generates a tempo advantage (i.e., we get to cheat on mana) rather than a value engine (i.e., we're doing tricks with the stack), and we all saw the list from GP Vancouver that cut the Vials for Windbrisk Heights.
There isn't one right way to use Vial, but there are a lot of wrong ways to use it. If you're letting Vial dictate the kind of creature curve that you have, then it's going to be an uphill battle in the 60% of games when you don't have it in your opening hand (and especially so in a fast metagame). I do think your point is valid, but I don't think its universally applicable. This applies to every deck, but you really have to know what role that each card in your list is playing and adjust your plan accordingly.
Regarding the card itself - if it wasjust a 2/2 'unblockable' or a fragile wall I wouldn't think it is a good card. It is the fact that Serra Sentinel is both of these things at the same time that makes me wanna consider and test it.
As a person who has played a lot of D&T lists with Voice of Resurgence, I can tell you that Serra Sentinel is not very good. Requiring it to die during combat is a major strike against it, because most decks fall into one of the following categories: (1) they will be happy to take 2 damage per turn while they combo out, (2) they would be happy to race your 2/2 because they're an aggro deck, or (3) they run enough creature removal that they will destroy your creature not during combat. In essence, this card has the Grand Abolisher problem; your opponents will just play around it. I see the same thing when I play Voice of Resurgence; if my opponents can avoid it, then they don't want to give me the elemental token. I like the design of Serra Sentinel, but I don't think it's as powerful as you think it is.
I want to thank @deathandcatmix, @SpiderSpace, @CharonsObol and the other D&T luminaries on this thread. You guys are great.
I know I'm very behind in responding to this, but thanks for the acknowledgment. I've been very busy with other things recently, but I try to stay up to date reading the thread, even if I'm late in responding to it. I'm glad you're enjoying playing with D&T and welcome to the thread!
Got a question. Why Thalia, Heretic Cathar? I mean which of the two abilities are you using most in modern? I get that non basics and creatures ETB tapped is fairly powerful but by the time on turn three you can drop her by cast or vial isn't it past the turn you need it for disruption? Wouldn't Imposing Sovereign be a better option in some ways since at 3cc Thalia is competing with a lot of the other creatures in the deck for both mana and vial drop turns? Or even Selfless Spirit?
On the curve, the nonbasic land tax is very good against a lot of decks, preventing most midrange and control strategies from efficiently curving out. It is especially relevant against tri-color decks using fetchlands, because both the fetchland and maybe the found shockland will enter the battlefield tapped. Late game, the creature tax messes with Snapcaster Mage (which now enters the battlefield tapped) and it prevents your opponent from immediately winning with something like Kiki-combo or Thopter-Sword.
Although Thalia, Heretic Cathar is better on T2 than T3 (just ask the WG players who curve into it T2 on the play using Hierarch), it is still very disruptive T3 onward. Your comment about using Imposing Sovereign or Selfless Spirit instead is a little misguided though. Yes, this deck is filled with 3-drops and it could really use one more powerful 2-drop instead. But it's unlikely that by pulling Thalia, Heretic Cathar from a flex slot that the next best option would be Imposing Sovereign or Selfless Spirit. In other words, yes, we would rather have those taxes on a 2-drop. But no, Thalia, Heretic Cathar fills a unique role in the deck that is not filled by Imposing Sovereign or Selfless Spirit.
How would you face the match against Lantern or Tron without Stony?
Against Tron, you use some combination of Arbiter, Mindcensor, and Ghost Quarter to keep them off Tron, while using Big Thalia to out tempo them whenever they try to do something sneaky.
Against Lantern, I mostly hope to not bump into it. You should save your Flickerwisps for their Ensnaring Bridges. In mono-white, I use Oblivion Ring in the sideboard. It's also possible to use something like Disenchant, if that's more your speed. If I were in blue, Detention Sphere seems like a good option. In black, you might want to get out in front of it using Tidehollow Sculler. And if none of the above works, I would just recognize that it's a bad matchup for us and sometimes we just have to bump into Lantern.
EDIT: It just occurred to me you're probably asking about the new variant of Lantern that uses Whir of Invention. If that's the case, then you should be looking at more search hate (Arbiter/Mindcensor).
Chronologically by release, the Masters sets have been: Modern Masters (MM), Modern Masters 2015 (MM2015), Eternal Masters (EMA), Modern Masters 2017 (MM2017), Iconic Masters (IMA), and Masters 25 (A25).
Tarmogoyf was reprinted in the original Modern Masters and then again in Modern Masters 2015. The same is true for Vendilion Clique and Dark Confidant. If nothing else, those are three examples of mythic-rare, nonland cards that have seen reprints in successive Masters sets.
This has always been available, because Darksteel Citadel has been a card for a while.
Yep, but the Cataracts are better because you can side in Stony Silence and the land is not annulled.
Affinity makes up less than 10% of the metagame. Do you honestly believe this interaction went from unplayable to playable when Cascading Cataracts was printed?
Inspector hands are a little more grindy, but Inspector is a one-drop (play the creature), a two-drop (crack the clue), and a three-drop (play the creature and crack the clue). It's a flexible card on the curve, which allows you to maximize your mana efficiency in the early game. It swings for 1. It becomes an attractive flicker target in the late game. Opponents don't want to waste removal on it, but sometimes they have to. It's grindy, but it wins games.
I could not agree more with you. But that's not my problem with the card. Individually speaking the card is excellent in the DnT shell, there's no denying that. It's more on the deck building/game plan axis that I have an issue. I find it (too) restrictive to have cards in the one drop slot that don't allow the same game plan. For example many keepable hands with vial are not keepable with TI or will simply don't offer the same game plan (we can't say the same about Goblin Guide/Swiftspear or IoK/Serum Vision). This also greatly impacts the deck building choices. While vial allows a higher curve, TI beeing so mana intesive pushes us towards more mana efficient cards (utility lands mostly) and thus a lower curver. While Legion's Landing is probably not as good as TI, it kind of ramps which leans more towards the vial strategy.
I don't know what you mean by "deck building/game plan axis". Inspector puts a body on the ground on T1 and draws you cards later, thereby facilitating your game plan. It's not Gitaxian Probe, but running Inspector is about as close to running a 56-card deck as a D&T deck can manage.
Copter is awesome. Opponents have to answer it with removal immediately or else they will lose to it. Allowing D&T players to filter for the relevant taxes in any given matchup is a mistake.
My problem with the card is the same as with bonesplitter, stony silence's opportunity cost is getting bigger and bigger. Siding out Vials,Inspectors and maybe Copters against Affinity doesn't hurt that much, but there are match ups where I'd like to keep those cards in and play Stony Silence. Also Stony Silence even becomes a good Sb option against the deck with so many artifact activations. Finally, while it doesn't see play that much, Kolghan's Command complete rekt us for playing so much artifacts.
Stony Silence is really only useful against Affinity and Lantern Control. I won't claim to know what your metagame looks like, but it's unlikely that Stony Silence is the most versatile option for your sideboard. For example, assuming Stony Silence was your only option against those decks, I could oversimplify a really complex subject and suggest that for every 7% of your metagame that is Affinity/Lantern, you should have 1 Stony Silence in the board (which is ~7% of your sideboard). You'd probably still be playing 1 or fewer Stony Silences, because they just don't do anything against other matchups.
Targeted removal is more versatile and it allows you to keep your Vial/Copter/Clue game plan the same.
this is also the first version of mono-white D&T that I've seen with a vulnerability to Blood Moon, having only four(!) Plains
I've been playing this mana base (with 4 tect edges instead of some lands, and usually 5 plains) for about a year or so and blood moon is actually less a problem than you might expect. Between double Flagstones, Flagtones/GC, Vial and simply drawing your basics, it's quite rare to be hurt by blood moon. The real problem actualy is Displacer's activation, but since those kind of games are grindy most of the time I find a way to set up Flickerwisp/Displacer loops.
The only way this can be true is if (1) you have a deep knowledge of the metagame and (2) you're respecting and playing around Blood Moon in a lot of matchups. I believe (1). But (2) means that you're not tapping out T2 on the draw because if you do, your opponent might play a Blood Moon on their T3, and you'll lose that game as a result. If that's correct, then you're playing in a metagame where you need more basics rather than fewer. If that's incorrect, then Blood Moon really isn't a problem because it's not prevalent in your metagame, not because of your Flagstones/GQ interactions.
I know that Flagstones/GQ puts in a lot of work against Blood Moon decks. I run that interaction myself. But alone, it's not enough, especially in the early game when you're developing your board state. 4 Plains is well into the danger zone where you're only running basics to not make opponents' Paths a blowout.
For sweeper protection, you should look at Smuggler's Copter (which survives sorcery-speed sweepers, provided you've been attacking and not blocking; although this has anti-synergy with your overarching strategy) and Selfless Spirit (which is probably better for your deck).
This is probably a blind spot with this list. I used to play 2 main deck Selfless Spirits, I went down to one copy and finally swapped it for Kor Skyfisher who interracts nicely with Inspector and legion's landing. Kytheon and manlands are kind of a sweeper protections, but I think it's not enough. I've been thinking about playing some planeswalkers like Elpeth Sun's champion to synergise with legion's landing ramp, the high land cound and the lucky windbrisk height activation, but I thought the non-bo with vial and thalia might be too much. However I've seen on the Eldrazi and Stax primer that they often play 2 Elspeths in the Sb, I wonder how good it was for them.
I'd stick with planeswalkers that don't require six mana to cast. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Gideon of the Trials are both pretty good, and if you want something spicy you could try the original Ajani Goldman whose -1 ability synergizes pretty well with the rest of your deck.
The 2/2 Wall of Resurgence/Blade Splicer split is surprising, because it should probably be four of either one.
I've moved away from splicer mainly because of Kolghan's Command and also because I was more confortable with the wall, but with so many 3 attackers triggers I needed more bodies that could attack so I went for a split. Actually The way I see it the cards don't have the same utiliy in the deck and if I had more space I would play 3 walls/2 splicers. However I understand that playing Copter might make Splicer more appealing.
Also IMO Wall shouldn't be played more than as a 3 of, having multiple in hand early game is clunky with non vial hands.
Again, I won't claim to know what your metagame is like, but if someone trades their Kolaghan's Command for your Blade Splicer and Golem token, that is a very good interaction for you. You've traded 3 mana for 3 mana and 1 card for 1 card, except you've done so against a card that's an all-but-guaranteed 2-for-1 against you. The correct response to a metagame full of K-Commands is either to run more Blade Splicers or to pull all of your Vials. I would recommend the former.
Your utility land suite doesn't include Tectonic Edge which probably isn't the right choice given your deck is designed to take advantage of a very low mana curve.
I agree with you, I think Tectonic Edge should be played as a 4 if possile of. I don't know yet what the exact split should be. So far this are the constraints/opportunity costs I've identified with the mana base needs :
14 Untapped White sources for 9 one drops
10-11 Colorless Sources for Displacer (maybe it's too much, EnT players might have a clearer opinion on this)
Windbrisk Height enhances the mid/late game
Manlands improve the chances of a T3 flip
Tectonic Edge is great but not necessary in many match ups, except against Valakut where it significally improves the match up (I might be wrong here)
Horizon Canopy is a nice anti flood guarantee for a deck with so many mana sources (31 if you include Vial and Landing) and such a low curve
With this is mind I'm trying to find the right balance. But it mainly falls down to Windbrisk Height vs Tectonic Edge
In the past, the lists that have been successful with Windbrisk Heights have pulled their Vials. I'm not saying you should do that, but I do think you have too many lands in the deck. 24 is a lot to begin with, and especially so when another 7 slots are allocated to Vial and Landing.
Finally, I think you've got too many one-drops. Even with the ability to flip Kytheon and activate Windbrisk Heights, the power level of your cards is going to be lower than a lot of aggro strategies in the format, which means you'll lose a lot of races by emphasizing your aggro game over your control game.
I agree with you on the power level/late game weakness, but less so on the aggro match up part. Most of the time with Mono White, when I lose to aggro it's because I get out tempoed more than a power level issue. Having a lower curve should improve that axis (at least in theory).
Since I havn't done much testing it's hard to evaluate where the late game power level should lie, but actually the late is more grindy than one might think. The manabase is built so that flooding is not that big of an issue, Displacer is a late game house and many cards generate some kind of value. Nevertheless like you I think the deck might be missing a big pay of card, I mentionned Elspeth earlier, I've also been thinking about Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Angel of Sanction and Sun Titan. I will try some cards that go big in the sideboard and see how they perform in grindy match ups.
If you play against an aggro deck (Zoo, Burn, Affinity, Merfolk), you're going to be punished for having cards like Legion's Landing in your list. Making a 1/1 with Lifelink simply isn't good enough to save you that game.
Sun Titan would be great in this deck, but I just don't know how you're reliably hitting six mana without costing yourself win percentage in other matchups. Against aggro/combo strategies, Sun Titan is too slow. Against control strategies, Sun Titan is a counterspell target. And against every strategy, the odds that you draw at least 6 lands by turn 6 (assuming you have 24 in the deck) is 31.92%, so it's more likely than not to be stuck in your hand, even if you never crack a single utility land.
Inspector kinda mitigated that, but not quite the way it should. While vial hands are tempo-ish, Thraben hands are Grindy, the 1 power being too lackluster to impact the game on a tempo fashion.
Inspector hands are a little more grindy, but Inspector is a one-drop (play the creature), a two-drop (crack the clue), and a three-drop (play the creature and crack the clue). It's a flexible card on the curve, which allows you to maximize your mana efficiency in the early game. It swings for 1. It becomes an attractive flicker target in the late game. Opponents don't want to waste removal on it, but sometimes they have to. It's grindy, but it wins games.
I understand the new tech now is smuggler copter, which I'm not a huge fan of at first impression, but I might change my mind.
Copter is awesome. Opponents have to answer it with removal immediately or else they will lose to it. Allowing D&T players to filter for the relevant taxes in any given matchup is a mistake.
So my goal during my last brewing sessions has always been centered around making the early game of the deck more consistent and not so draw/play, vial/non-vial dependant. That's when Kytheon comes in, playing 4 mutavaults maindeck and 4 thraben inspector allowed for some turn 3 Kytheon flip ( T1 kytheon, T2 muta + 2drop or T1 Kyhteon, T2 double thraben). So far I havn't been disapointed by Kytheon, at least not in the 1 drop slot. He puts on the beats early against combo decks, flips easely against them, it's a resilient must kill threat in many match ups and actually a decent top deck late game thanks to his indestructability ability.
When they spoiled the first flip enchantement in Ixalan, I prayed the white one would be like Kytheon and it did. Since then I have been thinking about a lot of possible interractions with the card Legion's Landing. But since I havn't been testing that much, so far all I can say about the card is that it interacts ok+ with flickerwisp, IMO playing it maindeck liberates one slot in the sb for burn, it allows to go more all in on the kytheon strategy, but makes vial a little worse.
Here's my decklist, I've only played 3 or 4 games in 2-mans (won them all) and tweaked the list in between every game
The Sideboard is a mess and needs some work. The land choice is quite a mess too, I play Shefet Dunes for the colorless, because the deck used to play 4 tectonic edge but now I prefer manlands and windbrisk height over it and I wanted to keep the untapped white sources high enough to increase chances of a T3 flip.
I would love to get some advise/opinions on this DnT take and if there is interest I'll keep you guys informed informed about my playtesting.
Your version of D&T is trying to go wide quickly. Unfortunately, this is also the first version of mono-white D&T that I've seen with a vulnerability to Blood Moon, having only four(!) Plains. If you want to keep going wide, I recommend looking at a black splash for Lingering Souls. It gives you four flying bodies for five mana and you're already probably losing games to Blood Moon anyway. You should also check out Honor of the Pure for some additional power; it will increase your clock by a lot. For sweeper protection, you should look at Smuggler's Copter (which survives sorcery-speed sweepers, provided you've been attacking and not blocking; although this has anti-synergy with your overarching strategy) and Selfless Spirit (which is probably better for your deck).
I'm going to be honest in saying I wouldn't play your list without heavy modifications. I actually like strategies that go wide; I used to play an Abzan D&T list that ran both Lingering Souls and Voice of Resurgance. Your list, however, is trying to do too many things at once. The 2/2 Wall of Resurgence/Blade Splicer split is surprising, because it should probably be four of either one. Wall of Resurgence makes the best use of your manlands, but Blade Splicer puts an extra point of power on the board for the same mana cost. In an aggressive metagame, Wall of Resurgence makes a good defensive choice, but I'd rather be running Blade Splicer for the current metagame. I don't like the vulnerability to Blood Moon; one of the major advantages of mono-white is that it doesn't auto-lose to Blood Moon. Your utility land suite doesn't include Tectonic Edge which probably isn't the right choice given your deck is designed to take advantage of a very low mana curve. Finally, I think you've got too many one-drops. Even with the ability to flip Kytheon and activate Windbrisk Heights, the power level of your cards is going to be lower than a lot of aggro strategies in the format, which means you'll lose a lot of races by emphasizing your aggro game over your control game.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a strategy that goes wide, but you need to clean up some of the rough edges in this list.
Thoughts on
Tec vs. Field? I like Field, and the 1 additional activation seems potentially worth it in a deck where I am running 6 search hate effects main, but that could be wrong.
Long answer: Field of Ruin is only better against land-light decks that predominantly run nonbasics (e.g., Affinity, Burn, etc.). The problem is that you're going to give up percentage points against a lot of non-aggro strategies by allowing them to fix their mana when you don't have a search tax. It's going to hurt you against everything from Storm to Jund to Jeskai Control. Generally, I think Tectonic Edge is the right choice against a wide-open field, but I've been running 9-10 land destruction utility lands (4 Ghost Quarter, 4 Tectonic Edge, 1-2 Field of Ruin) in my mono-white D&T lists and it has been extremely effective, so you may just want to run both.
Neither. Wrath of God is the correct choice here. It's the most versatile and effective option.
Dusk/Dawn hurts you against a lot of decks that can go under it, like Affinity and Elves. Having access to Dawn is nice, but it's not worth the cost of running a sub-par Wrath.
Settle the Wreckage is a card that tests the playskill of your opponent. You'll get a few free wins off of careless players, but that's where you need the free wins the least. Good players are going to play around it or minimize the value that you get out of it, so the best option is just to run Wrath and not give your opponents an opportunity to save themselves from the effect.
Thau Mery made top8 in the french rptq this season and he played a snow tech,
he had 2 Gelid Shackles instead of the usual sunlance or dismember.
That it prevents activated abilities makes it more useful vs. company decks and eldrazi tron, it also stops
death shadow at any size (costs mana every turn, but still..). I will definitely try it out.
He also played 1 Militia's Pride, i actually tried that in the past and i'm not a fan, i think if you want such a card,
then anything that can make tokens on its own is just better (like gideon or elspeth)
Mery's list has some interesting tech. I've never seen Shackles before, but it's a versatile tool. I'm not sure I like it more than Journey to Nowhere though, which does something extremely similar.
To me, the most interesting card was the singleton Endless Sands as a utility land. That's pretty spicy. I'm not sure in which matchups it's useful, but I can see it winning topdeck wars as a late-game mana sink. Plus, having the ability to chump block with a Blade Splicer only to put it under Endless Sands seems really great. If you can get both a Blade Splicer and a Flickerwisp under Endless Sands, then you can crack it on your opponent's turn for some gamestate-breaking interactions. The downside is that you need to have a reasonable board state for it to be useful; if your board gets swept before you can put anything under it, it becomes much worse. I still think Endless Sands is probably better than Windbrisk Heights though.
@agua_benta
The deck was WG Hatebears, not DnT. No ETB effects. Thalias, Hierarchs, Arbiters, Smiter, Pridemage, Mindcensor, and then Gonor Guard and Hushwings.
Catmix has actually been working on a mono-white Hatebears list. It seems to work pretty well. You can watch him do some playtesting here.
No worries, I'll look elsewhere re. Emissary of Sunrise. It does feel good to pull lands out of your deck even if you miss out on the +1/+1 counter though.
A FYI on Solemn Recruit: flickering it doesn't add a +1/+1 counter. I was hoping that since it returns to the battlefield simultaneously with the trigger for the counter, both at the beginning of the end step, it would still apply. But, on MTGO at least, it doesn't.
It won't work if you flicker on your end step, but it will if you flicker on your second main phase.
No no I meant a main phase flicker, so the Solemn Recruit returns in the same turn's end step. No counters were applied.
LekTek is right.
The Revolt trigger doesn't take place unless the condition is met; it uses an intervening "if" clause. At the beginning of the end step, the Flickerwisp trigger is put on the stack and the Revolt trigger is not, because Solemn Recruit hasn't been returned to the battlefield yet. By the time the Recruit enters the battlefield as a result of the Flickerwisp trigger, the time has already passed for the Revolt trigger to be placed on the stack that turn.
The same interaction comes up with Renegade Rallier. The Revolt trigger doesn't take place unless a permanent has already left the battlefield that turn. There is no opportunity to let Rallier resolve, put the trigger on the stack, and sacrifice something in response in order to fulfill the success criterion on the trigger; the trigger never actually goes on the stack unless the success criterion has already been met.
It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
Actually, I agree with this concern. The deck itself is fine. The problem is that Modern is so linear that you can play a 5-color deck completely unimpeded. The absence of abundant police cards combined with dominant deckbuilding strategies that suggest you can ignore your opponent have turned Modern into this weird place where you can play anything because nobody cares what you're playing.
And yet when people adjust and play the best possible hate card against 5-color goodstuff (Blood Moon), people scream for Blood Moon's ban.
Blood Moon is an annoying card. It prevents people from playing greedy manabases, which to most Modern players, equates to not being able to play Magic. But it's also not like Choke, which punishes people for playing basic Islands. (An obligatory nod has to go to SaffronOlive for talking about this years ago.)
In the history of Magic, Blood Moon has been a reasonably fair card, so I think it's interesting that Modern players seem to despise it. Part of that dislike comes from the comparably slow speed of Modern; Blood Moon is less impactful in Vintage and Legacy because they're faster. Part of it also comes from Modern's weak counterspells; in Legacy and Vintage, Blood Moon is less likely to resolve, whereas in Modern it is largely kept in check by targeteddiscard. Another part comes from how difficult enchantments are to interact with in general, a concept that Bogles takes to the extreme.
But despite the complaining, Blood Moon remains an important police card in Modern. The problem is that it's one of very few police cards in the format. Thoughtseize is another great police card, but we just need more of them that work on different axes. In Legacy, things like Wasteland, Force of Will, and even Cabal Therapy act as police cards. We don't need those things in Modern, but we do need more cards like those things. Right now, the police cards in the format are homogenized and not diverse, so players basically find themselves choose between all-in strategies or being some kind of police deck.
5-color humans is an all-in strategy, like Affinity. It's a little more interactive than Affinity, but it still wins by hoping to not bump into its weaknesses at a tournament. I like that the deck exists, but I just don't like how many decks in the format basically encourage players to ignore their opponents.
People are worried about storm when I'm more concerned with the implications of the 5 color humans deck.
What concerns are those?
It's actually nothing to do with the deck being bad for the format itself as much as there being enough creatures of the human subtype in modern along with enough rainbow lands to make a 5 color deck viable.
Actually, I agree with this concern. The deck itself is fine. The problem is that Modern is so linear that you can play a 5-color deck completely unimpeded. The absence of abundant police cards combined with dominant deckbuilding strategies that suggest you can ignore your opponent have turned Modern into this weird place where you can play anything because nobody cares what you're playing.
Yup, there are a few streamers that regularly play D&T. Deathandcatmix streams pretty often and I think Spiderspace is taking a break. There's also a Discord channel floating around somewhere, but you'll have to wait for someone who knows more to give you a link.
Historically, the difference was that GW Hatebears was more aggressive (e.g., Scavenging Ooze, Loxodon Smiter, etc.) while WG D&T still used ETB effects (e.g., Flickerwisp, Restoration Angel) to get ahead of the opponent.
Ultimately, the difference between the two decks is not in their card composition, but in their lines of play. In Legacy, Sneak and Show shares a lot of the same cards with High Tide (because they're all blue cantrips), but the decks have very different lines of play. It's the same thing for WG D&T and GW Hatebears; the decks are made up of similar cards, but D&T should give you access to control sequences in ways that Hatebears simply can't. But in turn, Hatebears gives you access to aggressive lines of play that D&T typically doesn't have access to.
Yes. Metagaming is very important for D&T strategies; you should tune the deck to wherever you will be playing regularly. If you want a proactive (as opposed to a reactive) E&T strategy, you should check out the Death & Staxes primer.
You'll want to check on the current metagame, but it used to be 3-4 TKS. The number of Reality Smashers would typically depend on the pilot, but most people either selected 0 or 2-3. Checking the metagame will be important though, because Modern is incredibly fast right now. I'm not sure if you can reliably cast Reality Smashers at the moment.
@roguetacticss: "The Mangara Problem" is shorthand for a combination of two things: (1) it doesn't impact the board when it enters the battlefield and (2) it readily gets removed at a tempo loss. It isn't just that Mangara dies to removal (because our whole deck dies to removal); the real problem is that Mangara costs you 1 card and 3 mana worth of tempo, only to be removed by a Lightning Bolt for 1 card and 1 mana (at a 2 mana tempo loss). All of the relevant removal cards in Modern are capable of removing Mangara for value because they all cost 2 CMC or less and they all kill Mangara (as opposed to something like Restoration Angel, which may cost 4 mana, but it doesn't die to things like Lightning Bolt and Kolaghan's Command). Sure, if Mangara ever stayed on the battlefield, it could generate a lot of value, but no experienced opponent will ever let you keep it. Hence, the Mangara problem - in theory, it looks like it could be good in our deck, but in practice it isn't.
@roguetacticss: x1uo3yd hit the nail on the head.
Fiend Hunter almost looks like Mangara, except it has an immediate impact on the boardstate and it has a higher toughness, which pushes it out of the range of some burn spells (like Kolaghan's Command). Fiend Hunter's downside is that it can cause blowouts during your attack phase because if your opponent can remove it at instant speed, then he or she will get back a presumably relevant blocker. But the fact that Fiend Hunter generates value immediately is a large part of what makes it playable relative to Mangara.
In general, if you: (1) plan on sacrificing a lot of lands throughout the course of a game, (2) have an aversion to losing to your own manabase, or (3) have a 3-drop or 4-drop heavy curve, then you should probably increase your land count to whatever makes you feel the most comfortable. I've seen successful lists with 23 and 24 lands, but I'm no longer surprised by the decks running 21 either.
With respect to the skewing your creature curve to sit on a particular number, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The creature curve moves around to reflect what it takes to be competitive in the current metagame. Sometimes we have to be aggressive (i.e., have more 1-drops and 2-drops that apply pressure) and sometimes we have to be more controlling (i.e., have more 3-drops and 4-drops that generate value). Historically, Vial always went up to 3 because Flickerwisp is one of the most busted instant-speed interactions in our deck. So to your point, it does make some intuitive sense to run other 3 CMC cards because they can come in at instant speed while you're holding a Flickerwisp in your hand. However, when the metagame is fast, we have to adjust to it. In a fast metagame, Vial becomes a card that generates a tempo advantage (i.e., we get to cheat on mana) rather than a value engine (i.e., we're doing tricks with the stack), and we all saw the list from GP Vancouver that cut the Vials for Windbrisk Heights.
There isn't one right way to use Vial, but there are a lot of wrong ways to use it. If you're letting Vial dictate the kind of creature curve that you have, then it's going to be an uphill battle in the 60% of games when you don't have it in your opening hand (and especially so in a fast metagame). I do think your point is valid, but I don't think its universally applicable. This applies to every deck, but you really have to know what role that each card in your list is playing and adjust your plan accordingly.
As a person who has played a lot of D&T lists with Voice of Resurgence, I can tell you that Serra Sentinel is not very good. Requiring it to die during combat is a major strike against it, because most decks fall into one of the following categories: (1) they will be happy to take 2 damage per turn while they combo out, (2) they would be happy to race your 2/2 because they're an aggro deck, or (3) they run enough creature removal that they will destroy your creature not during combat. In essence, this card has the Grand Abolisher problem; your opponents will just play around it. I see the same thing when I play Voice of Resurgence; if my opponents can avoid it, then they don't want to give me the elemental token. I like the design of Serra Sentinel, but I don't think it's as powerful as you think it is.
Or if you want to see me struggle with the same concept, check out this rules thread involving two special actions.
Big Thalia is excellent as a disruption tool.
On the curve, the nonbasic land tax is very good against a lot of decks, preventing most midrange and control strategies from efficiently curving out. It is especially relevant against tri-color decks using fetchlands, because both the fetchland and maybe the found shockland will enter the battlefield tapped. Late game, the creature tax messes with Snapcaster Mage (which now enters the battlefield tapped) and it prevents your opponent from immediately winning with something like Kiki-combo or Thopter-Sword.
Although Thalia, Heretic Cathar is better on T2 than T3 (just ask the WG players who curve into it T2 on the play using Hierarch), it is still very disruptive T3 onward. Your comment about using Imposing Sovereign or Selfless Spirit instead is a little misguided though. Yes, this deck is filled with 3-drops and it could really use one more powerful 2-drop instead. But it's unlikely that by pulling Thalia, Heretic Cathar from a flex slot that the next best option would be Imposing Sovereign or Selfless Spirit. In other words, yes, we would rather have those taxes on a 2-drop. But no, Thalia, Heretic Cathar fills a unique role in the deck that is not filled by Imposing Sovereign or Selfless Spirit.
Against Lantern, I mostly hope to not bump into it. You should save your Flickerwisps for their Ensnaring Bridges. In mono-white, I use Oblivion Ring in the sideboard. It's also possible to use something like Disenchant, if that's more your speed. If I were in blue, Detention Sphere seems like a good option. In black, you might want to get out in front of it using Tidehollow Sculler. And if none of the above works, I would just recognize that it's a bad matchup for us and sometimes we just have to bump into Lantern.
EDIT: It just occurred to me you're probably asking about the new variant of Lantern that uses Whir of Invention. If that's the case, then you should be looking at more search hate (Arbiter/Mindcensor).
Tarmogoyf was reprinted in the original Modern Masters and then again in Modern Masters 2015. The same is true for Vendilion Clique and Dark Confidant. If nothing else, those are three examples of mythic-rare, nonland cards that have seen reprints in successive Masters sets.
I don't know what you mean by "deck building/game plan axis". Inspector puts a body on the ground on T1 and draws you cards later, thereby facilitating your game plan. It's not Gitaxian Probe, but running Inspector is about as close to running a 56-card deck as a D&T deck can manage.
Stony Silence is really only useful against Affinity and Lantern Control. I won't claim to know what your metagame looks like, but it's unlikely that Stony Silence is the most versatile option for your sideboard. For example, assuming Stony Silence was your only option against those decks, I could oversimplify a really complex subject and suggest that for every 7% of your metagame that is Affinity/Lantern, you should have 1 Stony Silence in the board (which is ~7% of your sideboard). You'd probably still be playing 1 or fewer Stony Silences, because they just don't do anything against other matchups.
Targeted removal is more versatile and it allows you to keep your Vial/Copter/Clue game plan the same.
The only way this can be true is if (1) you have a deep knowledge of the metagame and (2) you're respecting and playing around Blood Moon in a lot of matchups. I believe (1). But (2) means that you're not tapping out T2 on the draw because if you do, your opponent might play a Blood Moon on their T3, and you'll lose that game as a result. If that's correct, then you're playing in a metagame where you need more basics rather than fewer. If that's incorrect, then Blood Moon really isn't a problem because it's not prevalent in your metagame, not because of your Flagstones/GQ interactions.
I know that Flagstones/GQ puts in a lot of work against Blood Moon decks. I run that interaction myself. But alone, it's not enough, especially in the early game when you're developing your board state. 4 Plains is well into the danger zone where you're only running basics to not make opponents' Paths a blowout.
We're not always an aggro deck, so the obvious question is "why do you want a quicker board presence if it's not to go wide?"
I'd stick with planeswalkers that don't require six mana to cast. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Gideon of the Trials are both pretty good, and if you want something spicy you could try the original Ajani Goldman whose -1 ability synergizes pretty well with the rest of your deck.
Again, I won't claim to know what your metagame is like, but if someone trades their Kolaghan's Command for your Blade Splicer and Golem token, that is a very good interaction for you. You've traded 3 mana for 3 mana and 1 card for 1 card, except you've done so against a card that's an all-but-guaranteed 2-for-1 against you. The correct response to a metagame full of K-Commands is either to run more Blade Splicers or to pull all of your Vials. I would recommend the former.
In the past, the lists that have been successful with Windbrisk Heights have pulled their Vials. I'm not saying you should do that, but I do think you have too many lands in the deck. 24 is a lot to begin with, and especially so when another 7 slots are allocated to Vial and Landing.
If you play against an aggro deck (Zoo, Burn, Affinity, Merfolk), you're going to be punished for having cards like Legion's Landing in your list. Making a 1/1 with Lifelink simply isn't good enough to save you that game.
Sun Titan would be great in this deck, but I just don't know how you're reliably hitting six mana without costing yourself win percentage in other matchups. Against aggro/combo strategies, Sun Titan is too slow. Against control strategies, Sun Titan is a counterspell target. And against every strategy, the odds that you draw at least 6 lands by turn 6 (assuming you have 24 in the deck) is 31.92%, so it's more likely than not to be stuck in your hand, even if you never crack a single utility land.
Copter is awesome. Opponents have to answer it with removal immediately or else they will lose to it. Allowing D&T players to filter for the relevant taxes in any given matchup is a mistake.
Your version of D&T is trying to go wide quickly. Unfortunately, this is also the first version of mono-white D&T that I've seen with a vulnerability to Blood Moon, having only four(!) Plains. If you want to keep going wide, I recommend looking at a black splash for Lingering Souls. It gives you four flying bodies for five mana and you're already probably losing games to Blood Moon anyway. You should also check out Honor of the Pure for some additional power; it will increase your clock by a lot. For sweeper protection, you should look at Smuggler's Copter (which survives sorcery-speed sweepers, provided you've been attacking and not blocking; although this has anti-synergy with your overarching strategy) and Selfless Spirit (which is probably better for your deck).
I'm going to be honest in saying I wouldn't play your list without heavy modifications. I actually like strategies that go wide; I used to play an Abzan D&T list that ran both Lingering Souls and Voice of Resurgance. Your list, however, is trying to do too many things at once. The 2/2 Wall of Resurgence/Blade Splicer split is surprising, because it should probably be four of either one. Wall of Resurgence makes the best use of your manlands, but Blade Splicer puts an extra point of power on the board for the same mana cost. In an aggressive metagame, Wall of Resurgence makes a good defensive choice, but I'd rather be running Blade Splicer for the current metagame. I don't like the vulnerability to Blood Moon; one of the major advantages of mono-white is that it doesn't auto-lose to Blood Moon. Your utility land suite doesn't include Tectonic Edge which probably isn't the right choice given your deck is designed to take advantage of a very low mana curve. Finally, I think you've got too many one-drops. Even with the ability to flip Kytheon and activate Windbrisk Heights, the power level of your cards is going to be lower than a lot of aggro strategies in the format, which means you'll lose a lot of races by emphasizing your aggro game over your control game.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a strategy that goes wide, but you need to clean up some of the rough edges in this list.
This has always been available, because Darksteel Citadel has been a card for a while.
For the current metagame, take Catmix's mono-white list and adjust to your metagame and playstyle preferences.
Long answer: Field of Ruin is only better against land-light decks that predominantly run nonbasics (e.g., Affinity, Burn, etc.). The problem is that you're going to give up percentage points against a lot of non-aggro strategies by allowing them to fix their mana when you don't have a search tax. It's going to hurt you against everything from Storm to Jund to Jeskai Control. Generally, I think Tectonic Edge is the right choice against a wide-open field, but I've been running 9-10 land destruction utility lands (4 Ghost Quarter, 4 Tectonic Edge, 1-2 Field of Ruin) in my mono-white D&T lists and it has been extremely effective, so you may just want to run both.
Neither. Wrath of God is the correct choice here. It's the most versatile and effective option.
Dusk/Dawn hurts you against a lot of decks that can go under it, like Affinity and Elves. Having access to Dawn is nice, but it's not worth the cost of running a sub-par Wrath.
Settle the Wreckage is a card that tests the playskill of your opponent. You'll get a few free wins off of careless players, but that's where you need the free wins the least. Good players are going to play around it or minimize the value that you get out of it, so the best option is just to run Wrath and not give your opponents an opportunity to save themselves from the effect.
Mery's list has some interesting tech. I've never seen Shackles before, but it's a versatile tool. I'm not sure I like it more than Journey to Nowhere though, which does something extremely similar.
To me, the most interesting card was the singleton Endless Sands as a utility land. That's pretty spicy. I'm not sure in which matchups it's useful, but I can see it winning topdeck wars as a late-game mana sink. Plus, having the ability to chump block with a Blade Splicer only to put it under Endless Sands seems really great. If you can get both a Blade Splicer and a Flickerwisp under Endless Sands, then you can crack it on your opponent's turn for some gamestate-breaking interactions. The downside is that you need to have a reasonable board state for it to be useful; if your board gets swept before you can put anything under it, it becomes much worse. I still think Endless Sands is probably better than Windbrisk Heights though.
Catmix has actually been working on a mono-white Hatebears list. It seems to work pretty well. You can watch him do some playtesting here.
The Revolt trigger doesn't take place unless the condition is met; it uses an intervening "if" clause. At the beginning of the end step, the Flickerwisp trigger is put on the stack and the Revolt trigger is not, because Solemn Recruit hasn't been returned to the battlefield yet. By the time the Recruit enters the battlefield as a result of the Flickerwisp trigger, the time has already passed for the Revolt trigger to be placed on the stack that turn.
The same interaction comes up with Renegade Rallier. The Revolt trigger doesn't take place unless a permanent has already left the battlefield that turn. There is no opportunity to let Rallier resolve, put the trigger on the stack, and sacrifice something in response in order to fulfill the success criterion on the trigger; the trigger never actually goes on the stack unless the success criterion has already been met.
In the history of Magic, Blood Moon has been a reasonably fair card, so I think it's interesting that Modern players seem to despise it. Part of that dislike comes from the comparably slow speed of Modern; Blood Moon is less impactful in Vintage and Legacy because they're faster. Part of it also comes from Modern's weak counterspells; in Legacy and Vintage, Blood Moon is less likely to resolve, whereas in Modern it is largely kept in check by targeted discard. Another part comes from how difficult enchantments are to interact with in general, a concept that Bogles takes to the extreme.
But despite the complaining, Blood Moon remains an important police card in Modern. The problem is that it's one of very few police cards in the format. Thoughtseize is another great police card, but we just need more of them that work on different axes. In Legacy, things like Wasteland, Force of Will, and even Cabal Therapy act as police cards. We don't need those things in Modern, but we do need more cards like those things. Right now, the police cards in the format are homogenized and not diverse, so players basically find themselves choose between all-in strategies or being some kind of police deck.
5-color humans is an all-in strategy, like Affinity. It's a little more interactive than Affinity, but it still wins by hoping to not bump into its weaknesses at a tournament. I like that the deck exists, but I just don't like how many decks in the format basically encourage players to ignore their opponents.