Card draw is good. More draw = more good (some might even say better). In some matchups your life is not going to be pressured immediately, meaning you can freely run Dark Confidant.
That's Deck played by one our local MN guys, Ben Tarnowski.
4 Fatal Push
4 Collective Brutality
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Mutavault
4 Thoughtseize
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Smallpox
16 Swamp
4 The Rack
Sideboard
1 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
Same deck placed 4th in SCG Minneapolis Regionals. Placed 30th this weekend.
Very nice list. I intend to put it at the top of the primer, in case Mr. Tarnowski doesn't read the forum would you please ask him if he minds or not?
I'm very surprised that many 8Rack decks now do not use Ensnaring Bridge in the deck. What do people run instead of that card? I consider Ensnaring Bridge to always be in the deck because that card is a game winner if an opponent does not have an answer for it.
The only decks that don't have artifact removal are the ones who are going to kill you before Bridge or through it. Artifacts are super relevant in the format, Affinity is always there and honestly at this point in the format you shouldn't be banking on one artifact to not lose the game. Enchantments are a different thing, I believe if it was an enchantment it would at least be a reliable defensive mechanism.
I've found the best way to looking at Bridge to be this: you can either try to advance your own game plan and disrupt the enemy's as much as possible in the meantime (more removal/discard) or you can try to circumvent the game plan of some portion of the decks while disrupting their ability to prevent you from preventing them from advancing their game plan. One of those leads to wins and the other one sometimes leads to not losing, but I'll let everybody decide for themselves which is better. All of that being said, I still think in certain metagames or specific constructions of the deck, Bridge can be very good.
This is just... classic. Wizards gives you an awesome black removal spell that incentivises you to branch out of the *****ty mono-black space, they conviniently reprint the fetches in the product immediately following Aether Revolt, but you people sit there like "nah, I'm just going to play Disfigure instead. If I want to trigger the revolt clause I don't need to fix my mana and get to play better cards in the process, hell no, I can just kill my own lands and creatures, discard from my own hand and lose the same amount of life anyway. It's so easy! After all, I ain't want no pain from me lands, I'm going to race people with my mono-black control deck." Makes sense. After all, when has a deck that takes damage from their lands ever been top tier, right?
Fragmentize is a sorcery so unless u are playing a basic Plains you can't hit a blood moon, can't hit a chalice on 1
To be honest, if you don't have the Disenchant at the exact turn they cast Blood Moon, it might as well be a Fragmentize. Not saying to play Fragmentize though. Unfortunately, 8Rack's community has a perplexing love towards bad and inefficient cards and has no problem with running a sorcery over an instant. Either way, the "Chalice on 1" is by far the biggest and most relevant reason to play Disenchant over Fragmentize.
Also, and this is to everyone, people seem to be debating on the Fatal Push to Dismember ratio, so I'm going to explain it as simply as I can:
Are you a mono-black deck? 3-4 Dismember and 2 Push depending on how many slots you have dedicated for removal. Are you lightly splashing white only for the sideboard? 3-4 Push and 3 Dismember. Are you splashing a colour or being a straight-up two-coloured 8Rack? 4 Push and the rest Dismember, depending on how many removal spells you want.
Essentially, in decks with enough fetches (usually around 8)you always want 4 Push, unless your splash is too light and runs mostly on duals with only some fetches, then the 4th one might be an overkill.
8Rack made Top 32 (23rd place to be exact) at Indy piloted by Andrew Liese. It's a Poxless bridge build (with smallpox in the side) with 2x Augur of Skulls for some reason and a maindeck Surgical Extraction and some copies of Blackmail instead of the full set of Thoughtseizes.
Since I'm certain nobody reads the damn changelog under the first post, I'll make a separate meta post to notify you of changes that have been made and that will be made SoonTM:
The lists at the bottom, featuring Tournament Results, Articles and Videos have been updated to the best of my ability. The main focus was on the tournament finishes and I think I didn't skip any high profile ones but please check it out and tell me if I have. Aside from that, I've added Fatal Push to the list of removal spells and put it at the top. I said I was going to add it to the Primer a lot sooner, but I decided to not do that until I have more statistics at my disposal, and since nobody else contributed any data whatsoever, I'm doing all of the necessary testing by myself. Which, obviously, takes a lot of time. Right now I am slightly under 200 games and when I get to that treshold I will analyse the remainder of the data and make a separate paragraphs somewhere, talking only about Push and it's various applications. On a not unrelated topic, I've updated some of the decklists within the primer to include Fatal Push, however a full update will take more time. Most lists will be updated, some will be removed and the exemplary one will be changed to reflect a new and updated high profile finishing list or one similar to it. The goal of that decklist is not to feature "a most successful exact build of the deck", but rather to introduce players to something that showcases the philosophy and type of the deck, among other things. Despite that, it will be made clear what the most recent high profile decklist is somewhere in that space to better communicate what a current "best performance" 8Rack looks like. These updates will be rolling out over the next two weeks, so when I say "soon", that's what this means and you don't have to waste your time with comments how I've decided to not do changes just because I don't have as much free time as you. In the future, I will be tagging non-constructive comments such as these as spam, just a heads up.
Let me know about anything you feel is missing or is incorrect, etc.
It's nice to see all these new members subscribing to the thread. I wonder if 8Rack is close to achieving a tier 2 status?
Not really. Tiers 1&2 are based on a lot of conditions 8Rack doesn't yet meet, one of which being how much it's played, or to use a term I personally dislike - it's "metagame share". Of course, different people have different opinions on what exactly a "tier" is and despite what many may try to convince you, it's not something universal. Nevertheless, it's widely agreed that "Tier 2" is where all the strong competitive decks are (let's not get into the discussion of what exactly "Tier 1" is right now), which means in order to get there, 8Rack would need to have way more representation (and ideally, a lot of that would come from competitive play). Despite the somewhat steady addition of new subscribers to the thread, the deck is still very far away from that stage. It also doesn't help that the vast majority of contributions are on the theorycrafting/kitchen table/fnm level with the... hm... "primary" more active contributors offsetting that by something close to 0% (myself included). Unfortunately, most of us can't, don't or won't play the deck in a competitive environment, so it will probably stay where it is in the foreseeable future. The only exception to this is Tom Ross who, understandably so, doesn't write here. I have plans to get on Magic Online this year and start grinding dailies, but that will happen at a later stage, at least a couple months from now.
And since this is a "meta" post, let me take the opportunity to add this: I'm finishing up on the analysis of Fatal Push that will be added to the primer and so far the "verdict" hasn't changed too much. Great in multicoloured builds, OK in mono-black. As we playtest more with the card (in both this deck and others), as we see it's impact on Modern (and maybe let the hype train settle down a bit) we will get a more clear view of exactly how good Push is and the verdict can change. Right now I'm asking you, after you've hopefully got to play with the card a bit - what do you think? I'm open to all opinions, explanations and good argumentation, but please keep in mind that anything of significantly sharp contrast to what I outlined will have to stack up against the almost 100 games I've played with Fatal Push in Modern (over half of which with 8Rack specifically). But worry not, every opinion will be take into consideration and if the overwhelming judgement of the community is very different than my own than I will add that instead to the primer and maybe write a footnote of what I think. Statistically significant data will be taken with priority but no comment will be ignored (no matter how troll it may be).
After some initial testing yesterday and this morning, here are some preliminary statements:
Fatal Push is the best removal spell we have access to for any multi-colour build. Whether it's splashing a or full on two-(or thri-?)coloured 8Rack, it's essentially a strict upgrade. It gets even better when paired with additional non-black removal, most notably heavy-hitters such Path to Exile. Despite filling in the role of Bolt, the two actually coexist quite nicely, providing the deck with increased flexibility how to handle threats and more cheap removal, alleviating the weight from Lightning Bolt that can now be freely pointed to the face should the situation arise.
Mono-black 8Rack is not so excited about Fatal Push. Without fetches, actually triggering Revolt seems a little bit difficult and it's more likely to get it by legend ruling a Liliana or Urborg than anything else. It's not a good choice for a "primary" removal spell, however it's good enough even without the Revolt clause that it's not a bad choice for the main board, some copies (2 or 3 seems right so far) in addition to the set of Dismembers have been really good in the 10 games I played with it.
However, mono-black 8Rack is very much excited for this next card - Yahenni's Expertise! Oh boy let me tell you, Bridge builds have been dreaming for this stuff. They are heavy on 3-drops, they struggle against small creatures, etc. Provided you disrupt them until turn 4, this is usually a game-winning card. I don't know how to describe just how good it is in that deck. Probably for the first time since 8Rack's inception we can talk about actual tempo plays, which is really insane.
Anyway, that's it from me for now. Throughout this week I'll keep testing things and after that I will update the primer with the new information. So far this is looking like a good expansion for the deck with at least two cards to be excited about, maybe some other things make it in various multi-coloured builds, who knows.
Having 4 Smallpoxes and 4 Ghost Quarters together is a horrible idea. Those are lands you don't get mana from and Smallpox already eats lands, so builds around that card include a higher number of lands, not fewer actual mana producers. 23 lands is already debatable for a Smallpox deck and adding 2 Dakmor Salvages that are in the deck because ideally they never hit the battlefield and you have... 17 functioning lands in your Smallpox build.
So guys, i have all the 8-rack base (the smallpox one, much like the Tom Ross list), but i'm missing the Lilianas and they are out of by budget right now. I know she has no replacements, but what do you recommend to put in her place, just for FNM fun purposes. I'm currently running a play set of Gatekeeper of Malakir that was lying around.
The best budget replacement for Liliana is actually Smallpox itself.
Card draw is good. More draw = more good (some might even say better). In some matchups your life is not going to be pressured immediately, meaning you can freely run Dark Confidant.
Very nice list. I intend to put it at the top of the primer, in case Mr. Tarnowski doesn't read the forum would you please ask him if he minds or not?
The only decks that don't have artifact removal are the ones who are going to kill you before Bridge or through it. Artifacts are super relevant in the format, Affinity is always there and honestly at this point in the format you shouldn't be banking on one artifact to not lose the game. Enchantments are a different thing, I believe if it was an enchantment it would at least be a reliable defensive mechanism.
I've found the best way to looking at Bridge to be this: you can either try to advance your own game plan and disrupt the enemy's as much as possible in the meantime (more removal/discard) or you can try to circumvent the game plan of some portion of the decks while disrupting their ability to prevent you from preventing them from advancing their game plan. One of those leads to wins and the other one sometimes leads to not losing, but I'll let everybody decide for themselves which is better. All of that being said, I still think in certain metagames or specific constructions of the deck, Bridge can be very good.
To be honest, if you don't have the Disenchant at the exact turn they cast Blood Moon, it might as well be a Fragmentize. Not saying to play Fragmentize though. Unfortunately, 8Rack's community has a perplexing love towards bad and inefficient cards and has no problem with running a sorcery over an instant. Either way, the "Chalice on 1" is by far the biggest and most relevant reason to play Disenchant over Fragmentize.
Also, and this is to everyone, people seem to be debating on the Fatal Push to Dismember ratio, so I'm going to explain it as simply as I can:
Are you a mono-black deck? 3-4 Dismember and 2 Push depending on how many slots you have dedicated for removal. Are you lightly splashing white only for the sideboard? 3-4 Push and 3 Dismember. Are you splashing a colour or being a straight-up two-coloured 8Rack? 4 Push and the rest Dismember, depending on how many removal spells you want.
Essentially, in decks with enough fetches (usually around 8)you always want 4 Push, unless your splash is too light and runs mostly on duals with only some fetches, then the 4th one might be an overkill.
The lists at the bottom, featuring Tournament Results, Articles and Videos have been updated to the best of my ability. The main focus was on the tournament finishes and I think I didn't skip any high profile ones but please check it out and tell me if I have. Aside from that, I've added Fatal Push to the list of removal spells and put it at the top. I said I was going to add it to the Primer a lot sooner, but I decided to not do that until I have more statistics at my disposal, and since nobody else contributed any data whatsoever, I'm doing all of the necessary testing by myself. Which, obviously, takes a lot of time. Right now I am slightly under 200 games and when I get to that treshold I will analyse the remainder of the data and make a separate paragraphs somewhere, talking only about Push and it's various applications. On a not unrelated topic, I've updated some of the decklists within the primer to include Fatal Push, however a full update will take more time. Most lists will be updated, some will be removed and the exemplary one will be changed to reflect a new and updated high profile finishing list or one similar to it. The goal of that decklist is not to feature "a most successful exact build of the deck", but rather to introduce players to something that showcases the philosophy and type of the deck, among other things. Despite that, it will be made clear what the most recent high profile decklist is somewhere in that space to better communicate what a current "best performance" 8Rack looks like. These updates will be rolling out over the next two weeks, so when I say "soon", that's what this means and you don't have to waste your time with comments how I've decided to not do changes just because I don't have as much free time as you. In the future, I will be tagging non-constructive comments such as these as spam, just a heads up.
Let me know about anything you feel is missing or is incorrect, etc.
Thanks for those, everything will be added to the front page shortly.
Not really. Tiers 1&2 are based on a lot of conditions 8Rack doesn't yet meet, one of which being how much it's played, or to use a term I personally dislike - it's "metagame share". Of course, different people have different opinions on what exactly a "tier" is and despite what many may try to convince you, it's not something universal. Nevertheless, it's widely agreed that "Tier 2" is where all the strong competitive decks are (let's not get into the discussion of what exactly "Tier 1" is right now), which means in order to get there, 8Rack would need to have way more representation (and ideally, a lot of that would come from competitive play). Despite the somewhat steady addition of new subscribers to the thread, the deck is still very far away from that stage. It also doesn't help that the vast majority of contributions are on the theorycrafting/kitchen table/fnm level with the... hm...
"primary"more active contributors offsetting that by something close to 0% (myself included). Unfortunately, most of us can't, don't or won't play the deck in a competitive environment, so it will probably stay where it is in the foreseeable future. The only exception to this is Tom Ross who, understandably so, doesn't write here. I have plans to get on Magic Online this year and start grinding dailies, but that will happen at a later stage, at least a couple months from now.And since this is a "meta" post, let me take the opportunity to add this: I'm finishing up on the analysis of Fatal Push that will be added to the primer and so far the "verdict" hasn't changed too much. Great in multicoloured builds, OK in mono-black. As we playtest more with the card (in both this deck and others), as we see it's impact on Modern (and maybe let the hype train settle down a bit) we will get a more clear view of exactly how good Push is and the verdict can change. Right now I'm asking you, after you've hopefully got to play with the card a bit - what do you think? I'm open to all opinions, explanations and good argumentation, but please keep in mind that anything of significantly sharp contrast to what I outlined will have to stack up against the almost 100 games I've played with Fatal Push in Modern (over half of which with 8Rack specifically). But worry not, every opinion will be take into consideration and if the overwhelming judgement of the community is very different than my own than I will add that instead to the primer and maybe write a footnote of what I think. Statistically significant data will be taken with priority but no comment will be ignored (no matter how troll it may be).
Anyway, that's it from me for now. Throughout this week I'll keep testing things and after that I will update the primer with the new information. So far this is looking like a good expansion for the deck with at least two cards to be excited about, maybe some other things make it in various multi-coloured builds, who knows.
The best budget replacement for Liliana is actually Smallpox itself.