I went down in Rack effects, but up in win conditions overall (15 now), and diversified my wincons to work with Bridge (another well performing card). When Smallpox is good, it's pretty good, but it requires certain conditions to be met for that to happen. I think I'd prefer Bridge over Smallpox, as it permanently answers an opponent's topdecked threats rather than needing to draw the right removal at the right time. To be fair, though, my perception on this is only based on hindsight after seeing the numbers coming out the way they do, with Bridge far outperforming Smallpox, even when weighed for sample size. I could see an argument for both, but every other nonland card also beats Smallpox.
I wrote above about diversifying threats, using the six token generators, to force an opponent into a sort of zugzwang. If they expend cards from hand to answer the tokens, then they will lose to Rack effects. If they don't, they will lose to tokens. All of that being a dilemma for them while simultaneously having their hand disrupted. It seems that if we go all-in on the Rack plan, we become a slower glass-cannon sort of deck, where it is easier to combat us with strategies like sandbagging lands, racing us with harder-hitting threats (forcing us to have to draw and expend resources answering the threats), or with cards like Leyline. This new direction allows us to play a true control game. With classic lists, we have to draw the right combination of cards, in the right order, at the right time, for the deck to function. Too many Rack effects and not enough discard or removal means we just fall behind. Too much discard and removal and not enough Rack effects means we lose to topdecked with no clock for the opp. With the new game plan, we've solved this problem.
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Tucker_Fleabane posted a message on 8RackHello all I have a PPTQ report with my current list posted above.Posted in: Control
Round 1: Mono U Tron, this could possibly be our worst match up. I lost in 2 games. They play a lot of artifacts so wrench mind isn't great against them and they don't tend to use up cards fast like RG tron can. He won game 1 with a wurmcoil after natural tron then game 2 with an ugin after natural tron. They also play a fair bit of card draw which isn't easy.
Round 2: Abzan, I won in 3 game 2 I couldn't deal with Bob and it buried me which is generally the case in this match up. Bob and Lingering souls are there best cards against us.
Round 3: Jund, I won in 2 games it was a relatively new player and the match up is good for us.
Round 4: Titanshift, this was a friend I drove down with and we considering drawing to keep us both live for top8 but then we went ahead and played it out because it was to early to draw. I won in 3 games he stole game 2 on me at 1 life with a timely top deck.
Round 5: Grixis delver with light splash of black, a very interesting deck with some brew cards in it. Every game was a race and they were very exciting. Double rack effects were a high priority in winning these matches. I won in 3 games.
Round 6: I got the pair down so I had to play it out instead of ID into top 8. Abzan again he wasn't familiar with 8 rack and I won in 2 games.
Top 8: I entered in first place which I wasn't to thrilled about because I had chosen to draw every game I had played so far.
Round 7: A friend on grixis delver the same person from round 5. Games very close again came down to top decks and preserving life totals it played out very much like a burn match up. I won in 3 games.
Round 8: Storm, I won with discard and mutavault beat downs in 2 games. I didn't see any rack effects until the very end of game 2 but the discard was enough to keep him off his game.
Round 9: The other fella I drove up with on Bushwacker Zoo. I chose to take the play in this match up and this match up only all day long. It turned out to be needed because he had a great starting hand with simian spirit guide and a bunch of mana producing creatures that he could popped out turn 1 and I woulda died to them. I discarded simian spirit guide with turn 1 discard then smallpoxed twicein a row for the win game 1. Game 2 he got stuck on 1 land and couldn't produce a critical mass of creatures to overwhelm my removal. I won in 2. Good for a rptq invite and 162 bucks in store credit. I had a lot of fun and had a lot of 50/50 match ups which is always nice. There were 34 players at this event and the only 3 players on Tron so it was a pretty favourable field for 8 rack.
A lot of times I side out The rack for bobs just to change up my game plan a bit. I loved bob all day long. The 1 ghost quarter main is to trigger revolt but its also really nice against man lands because they can be a pain. I would play a bontu's main if I felt the field was heavy with small creature decks it would replace my dismember in the main. -
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FearDReaper posted a message on 8RackPosted in: Control
That's a really subjective question. Between those two I want to say relic because it comes out earlier and cantrips. Leyline/Rip are better options imo. Surgical Extraction is good here too.Quote from SirFrancois »Question, for the dredge matches is progenitus better or grafdigger? which card can be used against other deck? my sb is kind of tight. Or should i just sideboard leyline of the void or RIP?
I use Rip. -
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MemoryLapse posted a message on 8RackNumber of lands Average CMC range Type of deck (percentages are for being on the play)Posted in: Control
18 0.48-0.80 Low-curve deck – You only need 1 or 2 lands to function, and you have no 3-drops in your deck
19 0.80-1.12 Low-curve deck – You need 2 lands on turn 2 (97.7%) but would like 3 lands on turn 3 (76.5%) for some 3-drops
20 1.12-1.44 Low-curve deck – You need 2 lands on turn 2 (98.3%) but would like 3 lands on turn 3 (79.6%) for some 3-drops
21 1.44-1.76 Aggro deck – You need 2 lands on turn 2 every game (98.8%) but would like 3 lands on turn 3 (82.3%) for several 3-drops
22 1.76-2.08 Aggro deck – You need 2 lands on turn 2 every game (99.2%) but would like 3 lands on turn 3 (84.7%) for several 3-drops
23 2.08-2.40 Aggro deck – You need 3 lands on turn 3 in most games (86.8%); 4 lands by turn 4 (67.7%) is nice but not necessary
24 2.40-2.72 Midrange deck – You need 3 lands on turn 3 in most games (88.7%); 4 lands by turn 4 is nice (71.3%) but not necessary
That's a snip from a math filled article about how many lands various decks should have. Full article here.
This agrees very well with my personal experience with 8Rack over the years. I've always used "maximum saturation" of lands for 8rack at 22 because 2 of those lands are Dakmor salvage which are meant to be pitched. SO it looks like anywhere between 20-22 is "correct" based on the chart. Pox builds throw this off. As a rule of thumb 2x pox = 22 lands, 3x pox = 23 lands, 4x pox = 24 lands. -
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FearDReaper posted a message on 8Rackwell I completely disagree 100% but that's a discussion for another thread. I've already done my fair share of ripping on the card.Posted in: Control -
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It would be nice if last sane mane on the forums could get the idea that cards compete with each other in deckbuilder's head. A guy placed high two times with 4x Brutality main and no Wrench Minds which are always played so we debate whether we should do the same thing with our lists. We decide whether WM to CB replacement would higher our winrates. Not because CB is a better WM, but because its a better card to have.Posted in: Control
I can do this with any cards: should I replace one Ravens Crime with Fatal Push? Of course FP competes with RC in my head not because its a better discard. Even a Swamp can compete with say Thougtseize when I decide what is better for my deck. -
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Why does Brutality have to get classified as a removal spell first when it has three modes? "Removal spell first and discard spell second", where are we getting this from? I know you don't have numbers on how these modes are actually used at comp REL in the current meta because you don't care for the card.Posted in: Control
"Your (well written) analysis on the last page complete ignores the 0 for 1 trap that CB frequently falls into." I know that the the 0-1 whiff is much less common in practice than you think. I cited 3 times over many matches, and two of those cases when it whiffed it was perfectly acceptable because it meant my opponent was not holding a payoff card (I think it was ad naus in one match). Don't think of it as whiffing, think of it as guaranteeing your opponent does not have an instant or sorcery effect in hand post resolution, which can help you structure your decision tree for the following rounds. Also, when you make the decision to resolve a Brutality Duress, you normally have information to help you with that decision. This makes the card inherently more difficult to play then simply tapping your two BB and pointing a Wrench Mind at your opponent.
There are times when Wrench will absolutely be better.
If you are just ripping Brutality at your opponent for a Duress without prior knowledge of hand or some calculation of your opponents draw steps and sorcery or instant fuel cards, you are going to have a bad time and your numbers will suffer.
"The two are not competing for the same spot." They are absolutely competing for the same spot. It's the two drop spot. One is extremely efficient and reliable card advantage in Wrench mind. The other is a mini smallpox with additional flexability that has a higher risk vs. reward. It's the same spot. People talk about splitting 1/3, 2/2 or a full playset of either card, but they are in the same spot.
Hah, hope this doesn't come across as being too fired up. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to discuss your creation with you and I mean nothing but respect.
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lioncourt123 posted a message on 8RackWent to a different store for FNM tonight, though I'm familiar with the crowd. 21 people with 5 rounds, cut to top 8.Posted in: Control
I know FNM results aren't always the best thing for data points, but there were some highlights I want to share.
I went 3-0. I drew round four, and realized that I am paying my babysitter more money than I would earn if I stayed around yet another hour to draw again. The store owner helped me out so I would at least get top 8 if I went home.
I did not lose a single game.
Round 1: Infect. A blowout. Kept a one-lander one game, still wasn't close.
Round 2: RWU control. An opponent who knows I like to be on the draw. Game one was a blowout. Game 2 was interesting. He chose to be on the draw. I started with 2x Iok, 1x Lilly, 1x Rack, Surgical Extraction, and two lands. I know how bad it sounds. I kept it anyway. IOK: he has Engineered Explosives, Snapcaster, Wear//Tear, 2 Resto Angels. I grab Snappy and Extract all of them (more on this later). I KNOW I cannot interact with EE once he drops it for one and takes away my win cons. I wasn't too worried about it. So by the time I played Lilly, I had another Lilly in hand, and his EE was on the board for one. I discarded a Rack and a Shrieking Affliction to Lilly, because I know he wanted to get Lilly, which eventually did. I dropped the second Lilly on an empty board, and then played Pack Rat next turn. He scooped. I was attempting to ULT my first Lilly, because I was going to make him choose EE or his lands. I discarded Racks and left the other Lilly in my hand just in case... I was a turn away from ULT, and then he used two cards to get my first Lilly. While I didn't foresee it working out this way, I can agree that taking EE was probably the optimal choice on that first turn; in the moment, however, I felt like I was going to be able to lock him down with Lilly (I took Mana Leak on the second turn).
Round 3: Eldrazi Tron. Game one was very interesting. When he was down to two cards in hand, I played my one copy of Blackmail. (I think he started the game with a mulligan). He had two lands in hand: Sea Gate Wreckage and his final Tron piece. I sat there for a moment, took the Wreckage. This one copy of Blackmail in my deck has replaced one copy of Thoughtseize. Saved my butt. I had three rack effects out near the end of the game, got him down to 2, and with some Map shenanigans, he ended up with four cards in hand. I was screwed... and then I drew... Collective Brutality.
Game 2 of this match was wild. I boarded out 4x Fatal Push, 2x Funeral Charm. I brought in: 2x Pack Rat, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, 2x Dismember. My opening hand was something like: two lands, Smallpox, Bridge, Pack Rat, IOK, Rack. He CHOSE TO BE ON THE DRAW. Expecting Chalice, I kept my hand. When he played Thought Knot Seer, he took the Bridge. I actually had a chance to play the Bridge when I had three lands, but instead played Pack Rat and Rack. NOW... I had four mana and played Pack Rat shenanigans: Discard a card, use the other mana to activate Mutavault (I had to tap it for mana, but it still pumped my rats). I was able to swing through a Batterskull (I swung with four rats that were 5/5 because I activated Mutavault)... and beat Chalice for 1.
I think a lot of people underestimate Surgical Extraction. I have used it so many times to rip out a win-con or a combo piece. This card is not just for graveyard strategies. I have said that before, and I stand by it.
I brought 2 Bridges with me in the sideboard just for Eldrazi Tron.
I had two copies of Collective Brutality in the main deck, and saw it exactly twice. Once, I played it against the control player and used two modes, and then used it for the lucky topdeck win against Eldrazi Tron. The only other time I ran two copies in the main deck I ended up 3-0, and it was the night I finally beat Elves. I TOOK THE CARD OUT because I was scarred for life by a player who DID NOT PLAY A CARD against me for three turns once, and beat me handily... because I did not have Wrench Mind or Pack Rat, lol. I have had CB in the sideboard several times, but decided I wanted to try it in the main again tonight.
I do want to talk about Death's Shadow for a moment: I know it has been recommended to try this card in the sideboard. I know Tom Ross loves it. But I played with it in the sideboard for a month and never played with it. When would I play it? Burn? I understand the logic, and I understand Tom Ross use Funeral Charm and gave his Shadow swampwalk one time, but I have never played this card. I used to swear by Nyxathid... and then I realize that I used to use Pack Rat against Burn and was successful. With Smallpox in the deck, I think we are 60/40 against Burn... it's never a match I worry about. With CB in the deck, we have a blowout (or if it's in the sideboard). We keep saying it costs FIVE mana to get something out of PR, but that's not true... because our deck is not a turn 4 deck. At least, most of the time it isn't. We drop Pack Rat onto an empty board, with Mutavault, and we have time to develop this plan. I have never though the card was too slow, but I have tried different things, and now I am back to the Rats. I tried Nyxathid and Death's Shadow, but the Rats are my sideboard dudes.
I think there are a lot of cards in this deck you can dump to Collective Brutality, especially after turn 4. A lot of our discard can become useless, and Raven's Crime is better off in the graveyard, anyway.
Hope some of this helps somebody.
I should add that the Eldrazi Tron player is a Day 2 GP player, and usually makes top 4 at the local level. I didn't play against scrubs, tonight. -
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Greetings!Posted in: Control
Long time lurker coming out of the shadows! I'm coming off a very enjoyable weekend in Dallas. I wanted to discuss some of the questionableness, I mean questions, regarding the performance of the list in the last month or so.
First off, I wanted to echo the sentiments of Lioncourt123. I have been on 8-rack since early 2016 and have tried many variants to different degrees of success. I have used this very thread to help challenge my ideas around certain cards and matchups. I intend to discuss the cards in my list and offer my reasoning behind the choices. I'm here to learn and improve.
My goal is to top8 a GP at pro REL or top8 an SCG Open in the next 24 months. I welcome all criticism as I continue to advance my list.
Timba - I selected Collective Brutality over Wrench Mind for Dallas because I believe it is a strong card in a burn heavy meta. I also believe the card is an exceptional card for the deck. These two facts together ultimately made the decision. I was still testing Wrench Mind a few days before the event. I plan to make a separate post making the argument for Brutality.
Talgardo - I have not made coverage with the deck. I was 6-1 going into my final round of Day1 and think I probably just missed coverage for that match. My good friend and travel buddy Sam Cocchiarella (Fish) made coverage for Round 6 and ended up drawing. I took a loss the final round of Day1 which made coverage for Day2 less likely. Hopefully some day soon I'll have some reps with the deck to show off.
DressedSpring1 - You nailed it. Not only is Dallas historically a burn heavy meta, whenever the meta is in flux players can shift towards burn. This also happens at larger events such as GPs and Opens.
Aleixarboix - Dark Confidant is an extremely powerful sideboard card for our deck. It serves as an excellent win con against decks that can resolve a leyline or chalice, accelerating card draw to reach lilly, racks and affliction. It also helps you race other decks that don't have or you see them sideboard their removal for games two and three. The average CMC for our lists is extremely low which results in a very pain-free draw. Confidant turns Raven's crime into a machine gun and gives us additional escalation options for Collective Brutality. I'll probably have to make another post discussing the matchups in more detail. Pack Rat is another option for this slot but I prefer the cards and 2/1 clock over a pure Pack Rat clock.
Dark Confidant does not change the decision to draw with this deck. I almost always draw, except for two scenarios. With 8 MB target discard options, I frame it like this... "What card, if resolved on turn 1, will overshadow the advantage of being on the draw?" One involves a SSG and Chalice of the Void coming out in turn 1. Sun and Moon is the only deck that does this. I will play vs. them. Can anybody guess what the second card is that justifies a play?
Dallas Loss Summary: Ended 11-4
I lost the first match of the tourney to Tron. He mulled to 5 in the first match and then ran me over in 2. It wasn't going to happen. Tron is my lowest percentage matchup and I am not dedicating any sideboard cards to them, which took me 6 months to figure out. Play as tight as you can, but there is little our deck will be able to do against traditional tron lists.
I lost the final match of Day1 to Sahili Combo 2-1. I was unfamiliar with is list (saw a Nahiri and Sun Titan) and made some sideboard mistakes. This was a winnable matachup and really emphasized the fact that I needed to have a better knowledge of what his win conditions were and the cards in his 75. Lots of room for improvement here on my part.
I lost the first match of Day2 to Fish. I took a sub-optimal line in g2 with Ratchet Bomb. Very strong opponent that didn't let me out of it. I need to work on this matchup.
I then lost the second match of Day2 to Eldrazi Tron. Like the first match of the day, this was not winnable. He double smashed me with temples in g1 and I wasn't able to get to an edict. G2 was the only time all weekend I needed to mull to 5. He had a smasher again with two temples and I died with 3 lands in my hand.
I'll work on the Collective Brutality post in the next day or two.
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I'm testing Ghost Quarter nowPosted in: Control
Dont like it so far
Its rarely needed
Causes mana problems and antisynergistic with the deck (card disadvantage)
Looks like a sideboard card
Interesting numbers about removal in monoB
number of creatures we can kill out of top50 most used (mtggoldfish):
Funeral Charm 18
No revolt Fatal Push 29
Dismember 46 - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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I don't use Dakmor Salvage anymore either. The soft lock works with any topdeck, really - if it's a better effect than making the opponent discard one then... great. If it's not, then just retrace Crime.
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Hopefully people will listen to you more about not playing 24 lands.
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I have always said that Surgical Extraction is basically maindeckable, in terms of what it does. I've certainly played with configurations that had it in the starting 60 and it was fine. The problem with this card is that although it's great against 50% if the field, it's also very bad against the other 50%, making it a very ineffective maindeck choice because, assuming you draw it instead of another card, you begin the match with a loss, 50% of the time. It's much better if you know it's good and then side it in.
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The other thing is a quick update planned for the front page. I don't know how many people care, but I planned to feature another decklist (which did very well in SCG Opens by @Moonglow), but after he made a lengthier post explaining his thought process I decided against doing that (there were a lot of factors involved, the least of which was that post). Tom Ross' list still seemed like the best candidate, but now I am looking at doing something else. I want the introductory decklist to represent what the entire 8Rack community thinks is best. Now keep in mind, this list that we are going to feature is not the most tuned to deal with the current meta, it's not the ideal candidate to take down a GP and it's not the pinnacle of 8Rack - it's supposed to be a clean build that's designed to showcase exactly what 8Rack is - a mono-black discard deck, first and foremost. With this in mind, I am hereby asking everybody who wants to participate to submit a decklist within the next week (end date: May 8th, 2017) and then I will put a poll up on the top so anyone can vote on what they think best represents the ideal 8Rack. I'm looking for mono-black builds with lots of four-ofs and without meta tech choices/considerations. I think there is plenty of room to showcase all sorts of decks, from competitive or meta-specific builds to two- or three-coloured versions, but the showcase deck has to be something that a player completely new to 8Rack looks at and says "cool, got it, that makes sense". At least those are my two cents on the matter, if you disagree I'm open to discussion.
Another thing that I planned to do was update our sideboard guide which is in a really bad shape right now (direct port from the previous primer). The reason that didn't happen is because our own @Timba wrote a pretty good, but rather concise, sideboard guide and posted it here a little over a month ago. I approached him and asked if he was interested to write a bit more extensive version that not only shows the choices but also the reasoning behind them, seeing that he is a very competent and successful 8Rack pilot. He was unavailable for the duration of a week at that time. I was hoping he would come out and do it but seeing as that's not the case, I will be working on that for the next week. It's easy to assume he has simply forgotten about it, but I can't know what happened so I'm not judging. It is what it is, I apologise for the delay, we will have a good sideboard guide soon.
Thank you for your time.
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Horrible. Bad on rate (2 mana for 1 card) and while the restriction might not seem too prohibitive at first, at the end of the day you are playing a Thoughtseize that's twice as expensive and sometimes doesn't even work the way you'd want it to.
Update: It's called Lay Bare the Heart and as an upside to this card it has one of the best, most bad-ass, fully awesome names a Magic card has ever had. So there's that. 100% auto-include in your deck if you shout the name of the cards as you play them, Yu-Gi-Oh!-style.
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The only decks that don't have artifact removal are the ones who are going to kill you before Bridge or through it. Artifacts are super relevant in the format, Affinity is always there and honestly at this point in the format you shouldn't be banking on one artifact to not lose the game. Enchantments are a different thing, I believe if it was an enchantment it would at least be a reliable defensive mechanism.
I've found the best way to looking at Bridge to be this: you can either try to advance your own game plan and disrupt the enemy's as much as possible in the meantime (more removal/discard) or you can try to circumvent the game plan of some portion of the decks while disrupting their ability to prevent you from preventing them from advancing their game plan. One of those leads to wins and the other one sometimes leads to not losing, but I'll let everybody decide for themselves which is better. All of that being said, I still think in certain metagames or specific constructions of the deck, Bridge can be very good.
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The lists at the bottom, featuring Tournament Results, Articles and Videos have been updated to the best of my ability. The main focus was on the tournament finishes and I think I didn't skip any high profile ones but please check it out and tell me if I have. Aside from that, I've added Fatal Push to the list of removal spells and put it at the top. I said I was going to add it to the Primer a lot sooner, but I decided to not do that until I have more statistics at my disposal, and since nobody else contributed any data whatsoever, I'm doing all of the necessary testing by myself. Which, obviously, takes a lot of time. Right now I am slightly under 200 games and when I get to that treshold I will analyse the remainder of the data and make a separate paragraphs somewhere, talking only about Push and it's various applications. On a not unrelated topic, I've updated some of the decklists within the primer to include Fatal Push, however a full update will take more time. Most lists will be updated, some will be removed and the exemplary one will be changed to reflect a new and updated high profile finishing list or one similar to it. The goal of that decklist is not to feature "a most successful exact build of the deck", but rather to introduce players to something that showcases the philosophy and type of the deck, among other things. Despite that, it will be made clear what the most recent high profile decklist is somewhere in that space to better communicate what a current "best performance" 8Rack looks like. These updates will be rolling out over the next two weeks, so when I say "soon", that's what this means and you don't have to waste your time with comments how I've decided to not do changes just because I don't have as much free time as you. In the future, I will be tagging non-constructive comments such as these as spam, just a heads up.
Let me know about anything you feel is missing or is incorrect, etc.
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Changelog: