I'm really glad there's a thread for this deck. I tried rebuilding my version from the ground up without Gift's Ungiven in mind. The real engine for this build is the four-of Serum Visions/Thought Scour to set up the Goryo's.
I've noticed my weaker matchups are Tron and instant-win (Bloom Titan, Living End) combo. Tron is the most difficult when I can't get an early Obzedat going. I'm not really sure what to include to help shore these up.
Can anyone explain some interaction for me!...
Kiki-Jiki and leaves-play effects. So if we copy a thragtusk, when the copy is sacrificed, do I get a 3/3 beast? Same with voice of resurgence?
This is correct. You sacrifice them at the beginning of your end step, so in Thragtusk's case it leaves play, and for Voice it counts as "dying".
I know a lot of you guys are really into the Voice of Resurgence (including Hoogland, lately) but I'm just not a fan. Almost every time I draw it, I'd rather have a Wall of Roots. Personally, I've been running a 2x Evolutionary Leap build with the full 8 walls and all the birds. E-Leap is great in the grindy matchups, and it allows the deck to run the 4x Wall of Roots for the most explosiveness in the tough unfair matchups. Here's my current list:
While I lend to agreement with you, I think this deck is too unexplored, underplayed and under-discussed to just dismiss any remotely-viable suggestion.
This is spot on. I can't believe how little experimentation there's been even with the relatively set-in-stone core of this deck. How do we even know 3 Tolaria West is correct? Is a singleton Island alongside (or instead of) Forest better? This deck hasn't seen nearly enough play to consider anything incorrect.
Someone mentioned Faithless looting a few pages back, what do people think about it?
I have been really interested in testing out a list that tries to implement Faithless Looting and Dig Through Time. The main problems with Faithless Looting though, is having to discard combo pieces. You do get a lot of unnecessary fluff in your hand a lot of the time, but the times when you have to discard things like Slayers Stronghold and Vesuva instead of scrying them to the bottom will be really annoying. Still, I think it's worth it to test it if only to fuel a powerful card like Dig.
I actually partially agree with you about Stirrings, anyway. Its really frustrating when you hit a Summer Bloom with it, which is why I only listed it as a two-of. I suppose a possible alternative could be Explore, which hampers the explosiveness a little but greatly improves your chances of a turn 4 Titan.
I think the money cards that aren't totally necessary are Azusa and Serum Visions. You could go Sleight of Hand over Serum Visions to save a little money and Simian Spirit Guide + Ancient Stirrings in whatever combination instead of Azusa. Most of the lands are pretty necessary - City of Brass is sortof a budget Gemstone, but it's only $2.50 vs. $5.00 so it's probably more worth it to just go with Gemstone in the long run. Take out Cavern of Souls for another lifegain land, and you end up looking something like this:
I punched this into TCGPlayer and it came out to $189.96. I'm not sure what else you could sacrifice to make it cheaper without severely harming the core of the deck. Doesn't include sideboard, but you pretty much need 4 Seal of Primordium and the rest is mostly up to your meta. Hope this works out for you, good luck.
I'm still on the Green Devo train, and it's working quite well. Went 3-1 at FNM and 3-0 at Sunday Standard, my only loss on Friday was against a nearly impossible matchup of Mono-black Aggro running Erebos, God of The Dead.
My store is heavy with Sidisi Whip decks and my list is absolutely plowing over them. The combination of Genesis Hydra+Eidolon+Prophet with Nykthos is just crazy. There's a point where it almost goes infinite, I just dump the whole deck on the table in a couple turns, and they're still sitting there making 2/2 zombies and gaining life. I beat a guy from 8 life vs. 50 the other day, because 35/35 Polukranos just doesn't care.
Went 3-1 at FNM, with my only loss being an incredibly close game to Jeskai. Added Whip to my Villainous Prophet build on a whim, and I think it's staying in. Play of the night was against my round 4 opponent, we both had massive boardstates and 40+ life, I flashed in a Poluk on his end step, then whipped back a Kiora's Follower to quad-tap Nykthos and monstrous to X=23.
Genesis Hydra and See The Unwritten are both great, and can be pretty crucial for card advantage in green builds. See The Unwritten is probably better on your deck, but if you lean more towards a Green Devotion/Constellation focused list, Genesis Hydra can better take advantage of your mana generation.
As for Sphinx, I don't personally run him in my build (which leans more toward a Devotion/Enchantment strategy) but I think I disagree with jshrwd. Butcher of The Horde is only in one deck, while Stormbreath (who pretty rarely goes monstrous) and Sarkhan are in nearly every red deck, Wingmate Roc and Sorin tokens are found in almost every build of the current most popular deck (Abzan), and Mantis Rider is one of the biggest threats in the second most popular deck (Jeskai).
There are things that can kill the Sphinx, and if your current meta is completely overrun with Mardu decks and Hornet Queens you should probably stay away from it, but I do think it is pretty well positioned against most decks right now.
Prognostic Sphinx is good because it's nearly impossible to get rid of, and it will stop dead the vast majority of popular flyers in the current standard (Sarkhan, Wingmate Roc, Stormbreath, and Mantis Rider). On top of this, it can safely fly in and scry you 3 cards every turn, which is incredibly powerful, especially when paired with a Courser of Kruphix. This will let you constantly draw relevant cards while almost never missing a land drop late game.
Had a pretty unexciting 2-1-1 finish this Friday, and I'd just like to shake things up. I've been thinking about Sultai colors (for Villainous Wealth) for a while, and Ranger Wickett's deck looks like a pretty good jumping off point, though I'll have more of a G/B Constellation shell than the Yisan one. I don't even have the lands yet but I just got to thinking about this deck and I'm too excited not to play it.
I'll be taking this to Sunday Standard today and see what happens.
Really happy with my FNM performance last Friday, ended up getting that Brain Maggot Promo. Will go to Sunday Standard today and update whatever happens there.
I'm thinking I may take out the red or just go Sultai colors, Crater's Claw is fun but it just doesn't come up that often and I'm usually already winning when it does. Here's my slightly altered list:
Round 1
vs. Mono-Red Aggro Game 1: He opens with T1 Foundry Denizen, I ramp into a couple Coursers and he gets me at 8 life or so before I stabilize and finish with multiple big green guys. Game 2: I board in my Nylea's Disciple's and he just has no chance. 2 came down within the first 5 turns and he couldn't catch up.
2-0
Round 2
vs. Abzan Midrange Game 1: Went Courser into Prophet into Hornet Queen, though he kept dropping my life total and buffing himself with Sorin. I finally managed to get out Prophet and pick up my speed with multiple Eidolons, drawing a ton of cards, eventually dropped Nylea with a Genesis Hydra and was able to swing for the win. Game 2: He boarded in a ton of removal, but Genesis Hydra don't care. Overran his 1-for-1's, another long game that almost went to time, but Hornet Queen saved me again in the end.
2-0
Round 3
vs. Jeskai Ascendancy Combo Game 1: I was pretty quick out the gate, but he had Ascendancy, Caryatid and Altar of the Brood before I knew it. I got really lucky and he just never drew his Retraction Helix, and I finished him by turn 7 or so. Game 2: Boarded in all my enchantment removal, and got rid of Jeskai Ascendancy as soon as it game down, and kept on pressure until he had to use Retraction Helix for defense. He complained of getting mana-flooded, but he would've had to top deck his whole combo to beat me at that point.
2-0
Round 4
vs. Mono-Red Burn Game 1: He got me to 6 life or so before I could stabilize and kill his Rabblemaster, eventually I got Hornet Queen down, bestowed a Boon Satyr to Hornet Queen and swung for lethal. Game 2: Boarded in all my typical anti-red stuff, but he played expertly around Anger of The Gods and had me on low life total before I knew it. By the time Anger dropped I was too low to come back. Game 3: Was stuck on 3 lands the whole game, kept drawing Nykthos and having to sac one to play anything. At one spell per turn he was able to burn away my creatures until swinging for lethal.
1-2 - We agreed to draw this match, but we played it out anyway. I don't think this was a bad matchup at all for me, Nylea's Disciple just never showed up the whole time. I'm thinking I might take out Anger of The Gods for Hornet Nest or something, it's just so hard to cast. Maybe even Arc Lightning.
Anyway, considering I didn't lose a single match until the final, I'm happy with this so far. I genuinely think Prophet adds something to the Green Devotion shell, and with some tweaking this could go somewhere.
EDIT: Just got back from Sunday Standard. Managed to get matched up against Mono-Red for all three matches, and ended up going 2-1 overall. I already know my matchup against red pretty well, so not much to say except that I'm almost certainly going to be replacing Anger of The Gods with Arc Lightning.
I played around with this list and it works surprisingly well, I didn't really feel restricted by the budget lands at any point of the game. Do you think Extinguish All Hope and Worst Fears could work as 1 or 2-ofs?
I'd like it better if Fated Retribution was in these colors. Worst Fears is interesting but for one more mana you get In Garruk's Wake. Still might be prohibitively expensive even as a one-of, but might be useful in some of the longer Abzan or Green Devotion games.
Aerialist has no way to protect itself, so if you're going in that direction you might as well just move up to Pearl Lake Ancient. Illusory Angel is interesting but it butts heads with every other flyer in the format. I like Sphinx because it can safely attack into Stormbreath, Wingmate Roc, Mantis Rider, and even blocks Sarkhan. It's a slow clock but once you have card advantage it's hard to fall behind and it really doesn't matter too much how long it takes to kill them.
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Restoration Angel
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Griselbrand
Sorcery (10):
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Instant (14):
1 Murderous Cut
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dispel
1 Logic Knot
3 Path to Exile
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Thought Scour
4 Polluted Delta
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 Godless Shrine
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Dispel
2 Countersquall
2 Timely Reinforcements
Some things I've been testing, considering, or moving in and out of the deck:
I've noticed my weaker matchups are Tron and instant-win (Bloom Titan, Living End) combo. Tron is the most difficult when I can't get an early Obzedat going. I'm not really sure what to include to help shore these up.
This is correct. You sacrifice them at the beginning of your end step, so in Thragtusk's case it leaves play, and for Voice it counts as "dying".
I know a lot of you guys are really into the Voice of Resurgence (including Hoogland, lately) but I'm just not a fan. Almost every time I draw it, I'd rather have a Wall of Roots. Personally, I've been running a 2x Evolutionary Leap build with the full 8 walls and all the birds. E-Leap is great in the grindy matchups, and it allows the deck to run the 4x Wall of Roots for the most explosiveness in the tough unfair matchups. Here's my current list:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Omens
4x Wall of Roots
4x Restoration Angel
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Eternal Witness
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sin Collector
1x Spellskite
1x Woodland Bellower
Land (22)
2x Fire-Lit Thicket
2x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Chord of Calling
4x Path to Exile
Enchantment (2)
2x Evolutionary Leap
1x Fulminator Mage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
3x Fiery Justice
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Kor Firewalker
2x Obstinate Baloth
3x Rending Volley
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Aegis of The Gods
1x Phyrexian Revoker
I'm really excited to test with Pia and Kiran. Will definitely be jamming a copy for the next event.
This is spot on. I can't believe how little experimentation there's been even with the relatively set-in-stone core of this deck. How do we even know 3 Tolaria West is correct? Is a singleton Island alongside (or instead of) Forest better? This deck hasn't seen nearly enough play to consider anything incorrect.
I have been really interested in testing out a list that tries to implement Faithless Looting and Dig Through Time. The main problems with Faithless Looting though, is having to discard combo pieces. You do get a lot of unnecessary fluff in your hand a lot of the time, but the times when you have to discard things like Slayers Stronghold and Vesuva instead of scrying them to the bottom will be really annoying. Still, I think it's worth it to test it if only to fuel a powerful card like Dig.
4 Primeval Titan
Instants/Sorceries
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Summer Bloom
2 Ancient Stirrings
2 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
Other Spells
4 Amulet of Vigor
3 Hive Mind
4 Simic Growth Chamber
3 Tolaria West
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Gruul Turf
3 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boros Garrison
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Forest
1 Vesuva
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Khalni Garden
1 Kabira Crossroads
1 Golgari Rot Farm
I punched this into TCGPlayer and it came out to $189.96. I'm not sure what else you could sacrifice to make it cheaper without severely harming the core of the deck. Doesn't include sideboard, but you pretty much need 4 Seal of Primordium and the rest is mostly up to your meta. Hope this works out for you, good luck.
My store is heavy with Sidisi Whip decks and my list is absolutely plowing over them. The combination of Genesis Hydra+Eidolon+Prophet with Nykthos is just crazy. There's a point where it almost goes infinite, I just dump the whole deck on the table in a couple turns, and they're still sitting there making 2/2 zombies and gaining life. I beat a guy from 8 life vs. 50 the other day, because 35/35 Polukranos just doesn't care.
As for Sphinx, I don't personally run him in my build (which leans more toward a Devotion/Enchantment strategy) but I think I disagree with jshrwd. Butcher of The Horde is only in one deck, while Stormbreath (who pretty rarely goes monstrous) and Sarkhan are in nearly every red deck, Wingmate Roc and Sorin tokens are found in almost every build of the current most popular deck (Abzan), and Mantis Rider is one of the biggest threats in the second most popular deck (Jeskai).
There are things that can kill the Sphinx, and if your current meta is completely overrun with Mardu decks and Hornet Queens you should probably stay away from it, but I do think it is pretty well positioned against most decks right now.
I'll be taking this to Sunday Standard today and see what happens.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Kiora's Follower
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Doomwake Giant
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Genesis Hydra
2 Prophet of Kruphix
2 Hornet Queen
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Villainous Wealth
Land
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Opulent Palace
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Forest
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Nylea's Disciple
3 Bile Blight
2 In Garruk's Wake
3 Sultai Charm
1 Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
2 AEtherspouts
I'm thinking I may take out the red or just go Sultai colors, Crater's Claw is fun but it just doesn't come up that often and I'm usually already winning when it does. Here's my slightly altered list:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Kiora's Follower
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Prophet of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Genesis Hydra
3 Boon Satyr
2 Hornet Queen
1 Nylea, God of The Hunt
2 Crater's Claws
Artifact
2 Bow of Nylea
Land
4 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Frontier Bivouac
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Unravel the AEther
2 Lightning Strike
4 Nylea's Disciple
Round 1
vs. Mono-Red Aggro
Game 1: He opens with T1 Foundry Denizen, I ramp into a couple Coursers and he gets me at 8 life or so before I stabilize and finish with multiple big green guys.
Game 2: I board in my Nylea's Disciple's and he just has no chance. 2 came down within the first 5 turns and he couldn't catch up.
2-0
Round 2
vs. Abzan Midrange
Game 1: Went Courser into Prophet into Hornet Queen, though he kept dropping my life total and buffing himself with Sorin. I finally managed to get out Prophet and pick up my speed with multiple Eidolons, drawing a ton of cards, eventually dropped Nylea with a Genesis Hydra and was able to swing for the win.
Game 2: He boarded in a ton of removal, but Genesis Hydra don't care. Overran his 1-for-1's, another long game that almost went to time, but Hornet Queen saved me again in the end.
2-0
Round 3
vs. Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
Game 1: I was pretty quick out the gate, but he had Ascendancy, Caryatid and Altar of the Brood before I knew it. I got really lucky and he just never drew his Retraction Helix, and I finished him by turn 7 or so.
Game 2: Boarded in all my enchantment removal, and got rid of Jeskai Ascendancy as soon as it game down, and kept on pressure until he had to use Retraction Helix for defense. He complained of getting mana-flooded, but he would've had to top deck his whole combo to beat me at that point.
2-0
Round 4
vs. Mono-Red Burn
Game 1: He got me to 6 life or so before I could stabilize and kill his Rabblemaster, eventually I got Hornet Queen down, bestowed a Boon Satyr to Hornet Queen and swung for lethal.
Game 2: Boarded in all my typical anti-red stuff, but he played expertly around Anger of The Gods and had me on low life total before I knew it. By the time Anger dropped I was too low to come back.
Game 3: Was stuck on 3 lands the whole game, kept drawing Nykthos and having to sac one to play anything. At one spell per turn he was able to burn away my creatures until swinging for lethal.
1-2 - We agreed to draw this match, but we played it out anyway. I don't think this was a bad matchup at all for me, Nylea's Disciple just never showed up the whole time. I'm thinking I might take out Anger of The Gods for Hornet Nest or something, it's just so hard to cast. Maybe even Arc Lightning.
Anyway, considering I didn't lose a single match until the final, I'm happy with this so far. I genuinely think Prophet adds something to the Green Devotion shell, and with some tweaking this could go somewhere.
EDIT: Just got back from Sunday Standard. Managed to get matched up against Mono-Red for all three matches, and ended up going 2-1 overall. I already know my matchup against red pretty well, so not much to say except that I'm almost certainly going to be replacing Anger of The Gods with Arc Lightning.
I'd like it better if Fated Retribution was in these colors. Worst Fears is interesting but for one more mana you get In Garruk's Wake. Still might be prohibitively expensive even as a one-of, but might be useful in some of the longer Abzan or Green Devotion games.
Aerialist has no way to protect itself, so if you're going in that direction you might as well just move up to Pearl Lake Ancient. Illusory Angel is interesting but it butts heads with every other flyer in the format. I like Sphinx because it can safely attack into Stormbreath, Wingmate Roc, Mantis Rider, and even blocks Sarkhan. It's a slow clock but once you have card advantage it's hard to fall behind and it really doesn't matter too much how long it takes to kill them.
You could take out a couple Elspeths and rework the sideboard to resemble something like this:
4 Prognostic Sphinx
Instants and Sorceries
4 End Hostilities
4 Dissolve
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Last Breath
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Divination
2 Nullify
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Devouring Light
4 Banishing Light
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands
5 Island
5 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Tranquil Cove
3 Radiant Fountain
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Devouring Light
3 Negate
2 Erase
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Fated Retribution
This would be pretty upgradeable - just throw in some more Elspeth and Dig Through Time and you've got a T1 deck.