1) What is the game plan for if we are fully hated out? Say the opponent has a Leyline of the Void and also Surgical Extracts our Through the Breach. Do we just then go for manaramping into hard casting our threats and hope to win? Or is there more to the deck I'm not seeing?
2) What are some specific hate cards to watch out for? I know graveyard hate is obvious, but are there any no so obvious counters to Through the Breach, Griselbrand, ect?
So what's the consensus on Light Up The Stage? It seems like most people are either playing it 4-of or not at all. I'm currently running straight Boros burn and don't even know what I would cut for it.
Quick question. Why don't any lists run Seal of Fire? Having an Enchantment just gives us easier access to Delirium, and it seems near functionally identical to Tarfire.
I may have gotten my numbers mixed up between Grixis and Jund versions then. I'm going to try cutting the Lootings for a 4th IoK and another Bolt and see how that goes. I'd like to run straight Jund right now, but I feel like Stubborn Denial is just so strong that not playing it feels wrong.
I think it's very wrong to drop IOKs in favor of a card like Looting, which detracts from our main game plan. GDS has to filter so much because it's low on threats, requires delve and doesn't have Traverse. We don't.
But I'm running 3 IOK's? Which seems to be the standard for all the DS lists I've seen.
I've been playing 4-color for a bit now, mostly Jund splashing blue, and I've found a list I think is very strong. I took cues from both Jund and Grixis lists to hit a solid balance of consistency tools and aggression. So far I've won a couple leagues with it.
The only mainboard removal that isn't 1-cmc is Assassin's Trophy to let me cut down to 17 lands. All 3-cmc cards are in the board, since post-board games tend to go longer anyway. 1-of Snapcaster helps recur a game winning spell, and works with the toolbox effect of Traverse. Faithless Looting was added since I felt Grixis lists blew us out of the water in terms of card filtering.
Hi guys, here two brief reports of the MKM Series Bologna my teammate and I attended last week.
About 180 players, I ended 17th (6-2, no byes), my teammate Top 8ed (6-1-1, 2 byes).
We both played 4c Traverse Shadow, plz find the list below: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20981&d=339174&f=MO
Brief opinion on the decklist: we both are Shadow players since the first decklists came up online more than 2 years ago. During these years we experimented all the different Shadow shells, going from 5c, to 4c, to Jund, grixis and esper. We truly believe Traverse shell is simply more powerful than Grixis brother (which obv is the most played shadow shell ATM) for some simple reasons (feel free to discuss). Main differences between the two shells are: Snapcaster Mage, Threat Density, Manabase Consistency, Grave hate, Tarmogoyf.
1- A lot of people like playing Grixis over Traverse because of Snapcaster Mage. Snap is really a great card, but the Grixis shell played nowadays is the worst in taking advantage of Snappy: 17 lands and no KCom make us Snap for a cc1 spell only, so that the Snap is still a great card, but it’s not as strong as it used to be.
2- Traverse is THE card: fixes our lands and gives us a threat. Sometimes grixis shell loses a lot of time trying to find a threat through Visions, Scour and Baubles. Here you can easily pay 1 to get a Shadow (obv, U must have delirium, but the was born to consistently make delirium).
3- Grixis Shadow is more consistent than any other shell. Only 3 colors, 2 basic lands that covers the colors other than red. Sometimes it could happen that playing traverse u got stuck in hand spells that u can’t cast, we believe the manabase we played at tournament was really consistent, but we must say Grixis is better in consistency.
4- The only card that kills us is Rest in Peace, but we can discard/counter it, and remove it too (trophy). Other grave hate cards (surgical, nihil, relic, Leyline) don’t really kill us, some of them are one-shot cards and some other still allow our goyfs to be big.
5- Tarmogoyf is better than Gurmag Angler, no way out.
Francesco Trogu’s Report: Top8 – Lost in quarterfinals
Turn 1 – Turn 2: Bye (4-0 at MKM Trial on Friday, winning to Gtron, Scales, Spirits, Dredge).
Turn 3 - Bant Spirits : 1-2
G1 and G2 were straightforward, I won G1 doing what the deck it’s designed to: discard, fast shadow, temur battle rage. My opponent did the same in game 2. I lost g3 due to mana screw: I mulligan a one-land hand (forest) to find another one-land hand (forest again), I didn’t find the second land.
Turn 4 – BG Midrange : 2-0
G1: turn 1 discard, turn 2 discard, turn 3 Shadow with Stubborn backup. He didn’t find a double removal.
G2: turn 1 discard, turn 3 Lili of the Veil, turn 4 Kcom killing bob and making him discard a card, I won as soon as I found a creature.
Turn 5 – Affinity: 2-0
G1 and G2: too many removals for him, he didn’t manage to play a champion, no way to win.
Turn 6 – KCI : 2-1
G1: turn 1 discard, then Shadow and stubborn on Krark-Clan Ironworks, Untap , Draw TBR.
G2: my oppo started with a double Grove of the Burnwillows on the first 2 turns, EE killed my goyf and he managed to win a couple of turns later.
G3: turn 1 discard, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf + stubborn.
Turn 7 – BR Vengevine : 2-1
G1: easy win, Shadow and TBR.
G2: easy lose, vengevine + 2 zombies on turn 2, no TBR.
G3: really exciting, I kept a really strong hand, he doesn’t find Leyline in his opening. Turn 1 discard targeting looting, turn 2 goyf but I struggled to win cos of his several zombies. Time ended, judges called additional turns, at the 4th additional turn he had a double shadow and double goyf (5/6), I was at 10 and he was at 9, I had a TBR in hand, but he had 10 zombies. I drew Bolt and I swung for 16 with all my creats. He had to decide if safely blocks and didn’t risk to lose or do some double blocks and try to win the turn after. He went for the second choice, double blocking my goyfs and blocking my shadows with a zombie each, bolt targeting myself, I went to 7, TBR on Shadow and won.
Turn 8 – I had the highest rating among 6-wins players and I drew.
Top 8 - Mentor Phoenix: 0-2
G1 at some point I was at 9 and I had to decide if cast a shadow and kill him the turn after, but expose myself to a double bolt and phoenix, or cast an IOK to shave an eventual bolt from his hand and slow down a turn, I went for the first, he drew a scour milling a phoenix drawing a bolt.
G2 I played thoughtseize only, not a removal nor a threat.
I was satisfied overall, the deck was really strong and I think I didn’t make any relevant mistake.
Alessio Bergodi’s Report: 6-2
Turn 1 – 4c Eldritch Evolution: 2-0
G1: he played a double Voice of Resurgence, on turn 3 my board counted a goyf and 2 shadows, he tried an Evolution but stubborn gave me the win.
G2: too many removals for me, he was stuck with 2 evolutions in hand without creatures to sacrifice.
Turn 2 – Burn : 2-0
G1: my oppo screwd stuck on one land for 2 or 3 turns, too much time for me
G2: 2 stubborns on the last 2 bolts.
Turn 3 – UWR : 1-2
G1: I was forced to lose too many life casting seizes, he killed me with bolts.
G2: too many threats for me, double goyf on t2 and t3 with a stub backup.
G3: he managed to kill me at the last additional turn bouncing his snap with cryptic and killing me snapping bolt, I was at 3
Turn 4 – Infect : 2-0
Really good Matchup, pretty straightforward games, shadow, removal, tbr.
Turn 5 – Vizier Company: 2-0
G1: a couple of removals on his key creatures while swinging with a shadow, he didn’t find a chord.
G2: oppo starting, land hierarch, go. Land finks go. Land Finks, go. Anger of the gods.
Turn 6 – EldraTron: 2-0
G1. Turn 1 discard on his chalice, then double shadow on turn 2.
G2: He kept a really slow hand, I was really fast, too fast.
Turn 7 – Grixis Shadow: 2-1
G1: both turn 1 discard, I played a goyf and he found a push, I found a trophy for his angler then a traverse for a Shadow that he didn’t solved.
G2: turn 2 gurmag and stubborn on my dismember. Than push on my shadow and gg.
G3: We went to topdeck at turn 4 after some discards and removals, untap draw: lili of the veil, gg.
Turn 8 – UR Phoenix: 0-2
My rating was not that great, so I had to play.
G1: my hand didn’t have a threat, but I Got a Lili. At some point he drew a looting and cast it, drawing and discarding double phoenix, I had no answer for such a play.
G2: really slow game, I had 3 shadows but I was at 15, at some point I fetched and played a shadow, he killed it with an axe than played a surgical targeting shadow, emptying my hand. I didn’t find any answer for his phoenix + drake and lost.
Ty for reading!
I'd really like to thank you for this list. I've been running it but subbing the two Anger of the Gods for Collective Brutality in the side. It feels amazing and consistent. I feel like I've only lost so far due to misplays (New to the deck) and flooding. Overall I love having access to Goyf, Traverse and Assassin's Trophy. Thanks again.
Hey there folks, any thoughts on Incubation in this type of shell? I'm looking to try this deck and was really inspired by this video to give Incubation a shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUPHZP6DbDg
I've been forgoing enchantment removal and haven't missed it at all. The only scary enchantment to me is Leyline which I have only seen in very fringe matchups. I'd say skip it.
I've been testing Skewer the Critics and it's amazing how consistent it makes the deck. Having 4 more 1-mana bolts really opens up to winning a turn sooner than expected. Currently have roughly an 80% win rate in my latest large batch of testing with this:
At first, I wasn't huge on the card because of it's non-interaction with Aether Vial, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Especially with how many of our 3-drops and sideboard cards are multicolored.
I'm looking forward to making a very aggressively minded build once the new set drops. Something less focused on counter picking with Kitesail Freebooter and Meddling Mage and moreso looking to present non-stop, resilient pressure. Here's a really rough idea so far:
Currently I'm iffy on Tithe Taker, but protecting our guys during our turn can be fairly impactful, especially if he's an EOT Aether Vial drop. Are there any other 2-drops to consider?
I think for sure this takes over the 3-drop flex spot. Militia Bugler is too slow for many matchups. This card is a great closer
She's good for sure and she's a bit faster than Militia Bugler, but why choose her over cards such as Tajic, Legion's Edge, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade or Thalia, Heretic Cathar?
Her +1/+0 effect is nice and it may be possible we will be able to deal 3/4 damage with her second ability, but I don't think she's a worthy addition to the main 60.
For the fact she's a lord. Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is a sideboard card to me, taking Gaddock Teeg's spot or working in addition to him. Tajic's abilities are super narrow, really only being effective against red decks, and his final ability can't be activated. Thalia is still also always a good choice, but she doesn't close out games, nor does she apply any pressure the turn she's dropped.
Judith is more like Kessig Malcontents more than anything, except with a bit more versatility. I'll take a weakness to Anger and Terminus if it means I can buff all of my creatures and deal a few more points of damage with a deck that wants to win as consistently fast as possible.
I just have two questions:
1) What is the game plan for if we are fully hated out? Say the opponent has a Leyline of the Void and also Surgical Extracts our Through the Breach. Do we just then go for manaramping into hard casting our threats and hope to win? Or is there more to the deck I'm not seeing?
2) What are some specific hate cards to watch out for? I know graveyard hate is obvious, but are there any no so obvious counters to Through the Breach, Griselbrand, ect?
But I'm running 3 IOK's? Which seems to be the standard for all the DS lists I've seen.
4 Death's Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Instants
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Tarfire
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Dismember
Sorceries
2 Faithless Looting
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
Lands
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
The only mainboard removal that isn't 1-cmc is Assassin's Trophy to let me cut down to 17 lands. All 3-cmc cards are in the board, since post-board games tend to go longer anyway. 1-of Snapcaster helps recur a game winning spell, and works with the toolbox effect of Traverse. Faithless Looting was added since I felt Grixis lists blew us out of the water in terms of card filtering.
I'd really like to thank you for this list. I've been running it but subbing the two Anger of the Gods for Collective Brutality in the side. It feels amazing and consistent. I feel like I've only lost so far due to misplays (New to the deck) and flooding. Overall I love having access to Goyf, Traverse and Assassin's Trophy. Thanks again.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Slams
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Shard Volley
4 Boros Charm
2 Searing Blaze
2 Lightning Helix
2 Skullcrack
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
Dunks
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Inspiring Vantage
3 Path to Exile
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Rest in Peace
2 Skullcrack
2 Searing Blaze
Also, has anyone given any look at Grand Abolisher? With Aether Vial it seems like it can be a decent damper to opposing control and midrange decks.
At first, I wasn't huge on the card because of it's non-interaction with Aether Vial, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Especially with how many of our 3-drops and sideboard cards are multicolored.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tithe Taker
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Mantis Rider
4 Reflector Mage
3 Judith, the Scourge Diva
4 Aether Vial
House
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Seachrome Coast
4 Unclaimed Territory
1 Island
1 Plains
Reserve
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Auriok Champion
1 Dismember
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Sin Collector
2 Knight of Autumn
1 Kessig Malcontents
1 Tajic, Legion's Edge
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Currently I'm iffy on Tithe Taker, but protecting our guys during our turn can be fairly impactful, especially if he's an EOT Aether Vial drop. Are there any other 2-drops to consider?
For the fact she's a lord. Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is a sideboard card to me, taking Gaddock Teeg's spot or working in addition to him. Tajic's abilities are super narrow, really only being effective against red decks, and his final ability can't be activated. Thalia is still also always a good choice, but she doesn't close out games, nor does she apply any pressure the turn she's dropped.
Judith is more like Kessig Malcontents more than anything, except with a bit more versatility. I'll take a weakness to Anger and Terminus if it means I can buff all of my creatures and deal a few more points of damage with a deck that wants to win as consistently fast as possible.
I think for sure this takes over the 3-drop flex spot. Militia Bugler is too slow for many matchups. This card is a great closer