MTG Salvation

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As others have said you can have whatever you want as far as deck quantity, nobody cares - 20 EDH decks in my house

That said, if new sets and products are coming out with for example Zombie cards and you're not combing them for your Zombie EDH, that in my opinion is a good sign that you've got too many decks going. You should be consistently updating everything you have without it feeling overwhelming, or like a chore.

The big thing is that house rules are called that because they're meant for kitchen table games. If your meta is you and your girlfriend and you guys decide that you're not gonna play with Protean Hulk and you're going to keep your 2000$ Leovold deck intact, Papa Sheldon isn't going to kick your door down and make you play his way. But for roaming players or big metas it's a significant complication.

For example, I play 90% of my EDH at home with my girlfriend, but the other ten percent is split up across four cities and about a hundred different players representing maybe three hundred EDH decks. If her and I say "yeah let's play with Primeval Titan" that's okay but when we stop in at the card store or the next town overs' store, what's to be done? Do we just tell everybody see to join the revolution and let the rules be forgotten? Do we carry around a spare RC-friendly stand-in like Verdurous Gearhulk? There's fixes but the vast majority of people are going to feel that it's way too much effort just to get access to a card that makes their performance illegitimate anyway.

Typically with younger players or newer players, going the tribal route is a good way to make things simpler and more visual - I've got an elf, I can see the picture of the elf on the card and right under that it says "Creature - Elf", he wants to be with his elf friends - using the narrative and the flavour is a good way to explain the structure of the game to people who don't yet see the bones underneath.

Do yourself a favour and don't go the route of "make something even ruder to put him in his place" - there's always a reckoning for petty behaviour.

That said, yeah it's essentially majority rules. WotC isn't going to kick down the card shop door and Taser this kid for playing Banrakul, and you're not playing for cash in a sanctioned event, so you can't exactly make the guy put it away. That said, if he's playing a banned card in matches where no one else is using banned cards, his wins are illegitimate and he's using a crutch in order to keep up. Either keep that information to yourself as reassurance when you annihilator sixed, or present it to him (politely) and see if he's willing to try to ride without the training wheels

There's kind of a convenient cycle that toxic EDH players get to spin through when it comes to stuff like this, and I actually just finished discussing it last night. If they get a quick, easy win then they're all "tch, nothin personnel kid.." but if they get blown out, they ride the high road of "you're such a tryhard!! EDH is meant to just be fun!" and thusly they get to dodge actually learning and developing as a player because they've got a 1-2 combo of "you're the problem here"

Any cards that aren't on the banlist are legal for a reason - if they've got Armageddon or Winter Orb then you should have ample access to counters and removal to keep yourself in the game. Some games you won't draw into an answer and that's fine, but if a trend of losses establishes itself then it can't be blamed on luck, tryhards, cheese cards, RNGesus or the day of the week anymore - it's time to either get better or play tables that are of a similar skill level.

Just as it would be toxic to bring Legacy Miracles down to a learn-to-play night and mop up kids, it's also toxic to take a casual deck and skillset, sit at a table with people who play competitively, and expect them to all slow down so you get to keep up. This guy bought the cards, studied the strats, wrote the list, practiced and earned every bit of the wins he's getting, but he's supposed to, what, keep Orb in his hand and take hits because you don't like losing?

I know it's not a nice opinion but it's, in my opinion, a fair one.

This is another thread where the definitive answer is "ask your friends" because every playgroup is different, and it's really them and not us you should be OKing your strats with.

That said, you've kind of found the paradox of convenience that toxic EDH players bring to the table. If they blow you out early with a Krenko machine gun or something they're all "nothin personnel kid.." but if you lay the hurt down on them, the tune changes to "hey! EDH is just for fun, you're a douchey tryhard!" - if you notice a person behaving like that, take your game time elsewhere.

In my personal opinion? If you get torn up T3 then you were set up poorly or your deck sucks, I'll call it a lucky play if it's a rare occasion, but if it keeps happening then it's your fault for bringing a deck that can't compete and not my fault for playing what I draw. In fact, it's a waste of my time to sit in front of games like that all night long and a waste of your time to bring an unprepared list to play against someone who you know isn't going to hold your hand.

To a lot of people, that probably sounded really rude and terrible and how-dare-I, but being competitive is not being toxic. We all paid the ticket so we all get to take the ride, right? The important thing is being up-front about what type of person you are. I'm a very competitive person - my girlfriend asked me to teach her the game and I crushed her for six straight months until she started taking wins. Now she's probably better than me! I've got friends who just wanna try to make Monk tribal work, and I just don't play with those friends.

What's truly toxic, as in, a threat to the integrity of the game, is to pick your pace and expect everybody else to dance along. If you've got Sneak Attack + Blightsteel Colossus and you pull up a chair with Monk guy and you're there to make grass, you're being toxic. And if you bring your cheesy precon-with-two-extra-rares-out-of-the-freebie-bin deck to a table full of tournament grinders and then whine when you get taken to church, well, unpopular opinion, you're being toxic there too.

It boils down to knowing what kind of player you are and playing with likeminded people. If you get murdered, pull your pants up and earn your place at the table or find a new table. I'll chat Magic with anyone who knows what a "mana" is because I love everyone out there who plays, but I always let people know what kind of game I play when they offer a match. If I draw a quick win, guess what, I'm winning quick! And you'd better do the same. You will never catch me with cards and mana ready to go, taking hits I don't need to, because the other guys need me to bend down to catch me on the chin. It would be a disrespect to the game.

tl;dr - if they can't take the heat they need to go to an ice cream parlour instead

In EDH, typically I'll add Ritual effects if they directly correlate to getting my general out early, for example, I'd run Dark Ritual in a Liliana, Heretical Healer EDH because then having Dark Rit and a land in my opener means I can T1 Liliana.

Obviously I'm being kinda vague by just saying "if extra mana lets me play my general early I do it" but it's kind of a personal opinion thing. Is it worth running Bubbling Muck in order to T3/T4 your Sheoldred, Whispering One general? I'd say by T4 there's enough moving parts that it won't matter anymore, but others would disagree. On the case of Muck specifically, I do run High Tide in my Talrand, Sky Summoner so I can either Isochron Scepter it or tutor it out when I'm trying to crank up a good Mind's Desire. Obviously that's a blue example, but Sceptre, Muck and Tendrils of Agony are all legal in EDH and would set up a similar, although less effective shell

Going from the art I would've expected this to be Gitaxian Probe - I wonder if there was a point in development where this art was meant to be on Probe but got shuffled over to this

First off thanks for providing a Tapped Out link, it makes seeing the analytics a lot easier then just staring at a hundred names

Second you're probably better off using Platinum Angel, Avacyn, Angel of Hope type stuff to lock out your opponents then pillow forting up because at least you'll wind up with a way to win yourself.

Third, I think it'd be more constructive for you and your playgroup if you just explained to them why commander damage exists and why it's so important, rather than build an entire deck for the sole purpose of busting their balls, right?

Fourth though, yeah I'll give you some suggestions. Get Soul's Attendant and Soul Warden as well as a Soul Foundry, (soul, soul, soul, I know) to go find with your Enlightened Tutor and then focus the token angle. If you're open to switching generals, Oloro and Karlov both provide more infrastructure in my opinion, while still giving you a way to actually wrap up the game and go home. Really consider what I said about just discussing with your playgroup though, I feel you're handling this the wrong way.

A reiteration : this thread was not actually about Dark Ritual or fixing Dark Ritual for modern. That was an example illustrating my actual question of whether modern players would invest two cards into one first turn removable creature threat. Which is something people regularly did in the 90s using Dark Ritual.

Yeah, there's also Simian Spirit Guide into a T1 2-drop like Voltaic Brawler, which is also a swing-for-4 T2. Though SSG sees a lot of play, not so much in that context. Which is pretty much the answer I expected this discussion to eventually come around to, but I wanted to see the dialogue and reasoning for and against. Thanks!

Quote from jeips »

Quote from megatog201 »

I love how everyone missed the entire point. Guys bonepicker was not the topic of discussion. Just a point made. Okay so now past that. If the card read... And this just feels more green than black BTW so fixing that.

Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.


That's more like the OP is trying to describe. Would this be played in modern?
Or make it black for some reason. Would that be played?
Even though with the new evolution card, the OP card just feels green.

Ah, see, thats a different card tho. Cause multi-colored cards could come into play because of it, whereas Dark Ritual had that very specific BBB

But the crux of my question remains: 'would modern players invest two cards into one T1 creature knowing that a single removal spell gets them 2 for oned'?

The whole 'fixed ritual' and 'bone picker' discussions were examples to illustrate this core question. Playing 2 cards for one creature is a risk reward scenario given you forfeit card advantage if the opponent has removal.

Is the line between 'creatures this is worth it' and 'creatures this is not worth it' as simple as black and w...nonblack? Is the answer 'Yes for Woolly Thoctar, no for Vampire Nighthawk'?

Yeah, that is close to what I was trying to ask. Though I'd use your card to cheat out Myr Superions all day.

I love how everyone missed the entire point. Guys bonepicker was not the topic of discussion. Just a point made. Okay so now past that. If the card read... And this just feels more green than black BTW so fixing that.

Creative and cool name G
Sorcery
Put a creature with converted mana cost of 3 or less from your hand into the battlefield.


That's more like the OP is trying to describe. Would this be played in modern?
Or make it black for some reason. Would that be played?
Even though with the new evolution card, the OP card just feels green.

Comment Hidden

Quote from VaultTechy »

This is another thread where the definitive answer is "ask your friends" because every playgroup is different, and it's really them and not us you should be OKing your strats with.

That said, you've kind of found the paradox of convenience that toxic EDH players bring to the table. If they blow you out early with a Krenko machine gun or something they're all "nothin personnel kid.." but if you lay the hurt down on them, the tune changes to "hey! EDH is just for fun, you're a douchey tryhard!" - if you notice a person behaving like that, take your game time elsewhere.

In my personal opinion? If you get torn up T3 then you were set up poorly or your deck sucks, I'll call it a lucky play if it's a rare occasion, but if it keeps happening then it's your fault for bringing a deck that can't compete and not my fault for playing what I draw. In fact, it's a waste of my time to sit in front of games like that all night long and a waste of your time to bring an unprepared list to play against someone who you know isn't going to hold your hand.

To a lot of people, that probably sounded really rude and terrible and how-dare-I, but being competitive is not being toxic. We all paid the ticket so we all get to take the ride, right? The important thing is being up-front about what type of person you are. I'm a very competitive person - my girlfriend asked me to teach her the game and I crushed her for six straight months until she started taking wins. Now she's probably better than me! I've got friends who just wanna try to make Monk tribal work, and I just don't play with those friends.

What's truly toxic, as in, a threat to the integrity of the game, is to pick your pace and expect everybody else to dance along. If you've got Sneak Attack + Blightsteel Colossus and you pull up a chair with Monk guy and you're there to make grass, you're being toxic. And if you bring your cheesy precon-with-two-extra-rares-out-of-the-freebie-bin deck to a table full of tournament grinders and then whine when you get taken to church, well, unpopular opinion, you're being toxic there too.

It boils down to knowing what kind of player you are and playing with likeminded people. If you get murdered, pull your pants up and earn your place at the table or find a new table. I'll chat Magic with anyone who knows what a "mana" is because I love everyone out there who plays, but I always let people know what kind of game I play when they offer a match. If I draw a quick win, guess what, I'm winning quick! And you'd better do the same. You will never catch me with cards and mana ready to go, taking hits I don't need to, because the other guys need me to bend down to catch me on the chin. It would be a disrespect to the game.

tl;dr - if they can't take the heat they need to go to an ice cream parlour instead

Amen. I wish more people had the intestinal fortitude to say this and not apologize. I agree 100%. The post also gave me some laughs. Best post I've read all week.

Quote from VaultTechy »

In my own meta, both Marchesas are used pretty consistently as vampire tribals - I'm sure you'll find oodles of lists online. Personally I prefer Queen Marchesa over Marchesa, the Black Rose because you get access to Blood Baron of Vizkopa, some extra Sorins, Cliffhaven Vampire, Karlov of the Ghost Council (not a vampire but way too good to ignore)

In general though yeah it's a tried-and-true setup for mid-tier decks, for sure

Thank you! I'm off to do research!

Quote from Billiondegree »

No bans are needed for this format yet. Wait until multiple large events are held before even considering such a thing.

Of course, it is still relatively new, however we wanted to provide a place of discussion for the overall health of the format, despite the absence of a banlist while still providing structure in the OP of this thread to expand and add one should this format have a banlist later on.

Quote from Tvtyrant »

Nice to get a forum. Thanks MTGSalvation staff, especially Airithne!

Thank you!