Excellent game. Most I've enjoyed playing in a long time. Well modded, and very well played. I feel like the mafia played solidly and lost to a combination of some very sharp play by the town, a couple reasonable decisions that just did not pan out well for them, and a couple key mistakes. Void played a decent day 1 and his implosion is somewhat understandable considering it looked so certain either M_E or B_E was the lynch, and a relatively small catch by Rhand got so much traction. AE did a great job a dodged my bullet; I might not have felt strongly enough to go after him if Void's lynch hadn't have highlighted some of his questionable posts. Iso had me completely fooled. I tip my hat to you.
I was very impressed by DCIII, Rhand, and Antny, and I thought TMCT and Shockwave were both ahead of the curve as far as not being manipulated by the mafia.
Funnily enough, the semi-lurkiness that led the mafia to believe I was a power role was simply me trying to not get lynched. I tend to overplay as town day 1 and have been mislynched several times because of it.
I don't know if I can explain it better (at least not tonight, it's been a long day). DCIII voted when there was just two people on the wagon and you waited to see if there anyone else was going to vote Void before shifting. Since there's no way for you to have known at the time whether anyone else would have joined the wagon I'm not sure how I can factor you second sentence into the equation.
Comparing just those two votes DCIII's will always be more important for reasons we both agree on.
I might not agree with Rhand about your vote being the likeliest bus vote but I can see where he was coming from and I disagreed with your post 631 about your actions and DCIII's being similar enough to merit equal treatment.
DCIII's post before the self vote (287,315, 322) are all trying to get that fifth player on the wagon. I just don't believe a scum player would be trying to build a wagon on a scumbuddy at that time. Your initial posts around that time (301, 307, 311) are a little more on the fence and that you waited til after Void responded to push the wagon (349).
So DCIII's vote is very unlikely to a bus vote in my mind.
Your vote - it could easily be a town vote, but still as scum if you thought Rhand's case was strong I could see the possibility of a bus, particularly if you feared others were about to jump on after DCIII. Post 349 suggests it was probably not a bus. I could be wrong. I don't know. I'm s little rushed right now so if I'm around toMorrow I'll explain it better if this is making no sense.
OK. That's fair. Obviously I don't see things the same way but I can't say you're way off base. Except the part about my post 631. I never said mine and DCIII's actions deserved equal treatment, I said they were similar enough that drawing completely opposite conclusions from them doesn't make sense.
The second part was really my point, DCIII's vote is integral to the wagon forming, yours helped but wasn't as important - which is what I think Rhand was trying to say in his T/S list.
Your vote may not be a bus vote but it is more likely to be a bus vote than DCIII's given the information.
I'm curious as to your reasoning for this conclusion. Guess how many people voted for Void between my vote and his self-vote. (Hint: it's zero.)
Again, we need to go fast
As it is clear TMCT is not today's lynch, unvote,vote Archmage Eternal
I feel obliged to point out that you're gonna be lynched toDay and that's gonna happen today. If you have anything more useful than a counterwagon you should post it now.
Yup. I expect to check back before tonight's deadline but I can't guarantee.
I'm curious though: why did you only bring this up now? This was definately not the first time I called DCIII town and you possible scum for the development of the Void wagon.
The primary reason is because it's not the first time. I don't feel the need to stamp out every bit of suspicion expressed about me, especially when there are fair points to be made, and especially when I think it'd be picking a fight with another town. But since you've repeated the idea multiple times and made it clear it's an important element to your read on me, I felt it needed to be addressed. Plus it was starting to piss me off.
Explain me please: what happened between you voicing that you would support a Void wagon and you actually voting that convinced you to change your vote?
I'm not sure how to explain this again any differently.
I had a gut-suspicion of Void but very little evidence to support it.
I was more than happy to lynch M_E, but I did not agree with the wagon on B_E. I did not want to move my vote off of M_E to a wagon that might not go anywhere. With 7 to lynch and the deadline being a factor, and with B_E and M_E as the only two players brought to claim range thus far, 2 or 3 votes might be ignored. With 4 votes, only one more person has to agree to be claim range. That's harder to ignore.
And I'll point you to my earlier statement to Antny: nobody else voted Void before he self-voted. After DCIII, I was the rest of the wagon.
I'll also remind you that it wasn't until Void's response to your case, particularly how he tried to paint you as scummy over it, that convinced me he was scum.
I'm fine with either Rhand or Mirror as todays lynch.
This is Day 1, post 117, not 48 hours after the game has begun. Some players, like myself, have only posted a couple times. The most votes anyone has on them is 2. It's so absurd to be fine with either of two players being lynched at this point in the game that he can't possibly actually believe it. Moving on:
I've caught scum early early on D1. I've just recently been zeroed out as scum by Cyan in the first page of a game. Same with Proph in Apocalypse. So sorry, I do disagree with your thought in this.
And if you were Cyan, or Seppel, I probably wouldn't blink an eye. But nothing else about your play in this game suggests you are a pure-gut player.
Here he attacks B_E for saying the exact same thing he said earlier.
Well lets take a look and see what the big difference is here. BE condemns ME in his post. I push for ME to straighten out. Be productive and help out. To me these posts are complete opposites.
This is nothing more than splitting hairs. You both suggested he shouldn't be resigned to being lynched. You both suggested he might not be lynched. You both said he wouldn't behave this way if he was town. Spinning one was condemnation and the other as just trying to be helpful is nonsense. Besides, why would you feel the need to push ME to straighten out when the last thing you said about him was that you are fine with his lynch?
Continuing to push M_E even after the self-vote is exactly what he did. He only switched to Void after it was clear M_E was not getting lynched.
358 - AE checks in, says he'll post more later.
OK
360 - Pushes ME as the right lynch "even if theres a hint of Void being scum".
Thats where my vote was at the time. I was waiting to hear from Void.
365 - Void self-votes.
374 - AE pushes M_E for being afraid to put Void to L-1.
Still don't like that post. Comes across way to self conscience. Just state that you will be voting Void when the time comes to end the day.
376 & 377 - Now he's suddenly willing to vote Void
Had to look back on a game. Thanks for keeping up on that.
382 - And now he actually votes Void.
Yes. Right after his response. Saw what I was talking about and gave us a town ME.
430 - Tells TMCT to just hammer Void and get the day over with.
Whoa. Yes, 3 days later!!! With the game stalling and Thanksgiving coming right up. A time frame in which you refrained from posting and helping the day move forward. You talk about looking at the timing but that is exactly what your ignoring.
This is complete bullsh*t. Both wagons where at 5. Some were still wavering on who to lynch. I switched to Void when he made it clear he was scum and ME was town.
First of all, all I did with that list of posts was to provide facts. You are the one adding implications to each individual one, not me.
Your claim is that you did not behave exactly as you said you would as scum because, as scum, you would have continued to push M_E to the bitter end, regardless of how obviously scum Void was or how inevitable his lynch looked. And what you actually did was continue to push M_E even after he had made it abundantly clear he was scum, but did not continue to the bitter end.
This is accurate. But I do not buy that, as scum, you would never ever switch over to an obviously doomed buddy in favor of a highly vulnerable townie. Nor do I buy that you still had doubts about Void after he self-voted, but after this post:
Hold on. @ Void. What game was it that we were scum and you basically came out and claimed scum just to have the town lynch the townie over you? I believe it was you, I'm trying to find it. Help me out, was it you?
I believe that was Azrael in Boardgame Mafia, not me.
ME is Town. Nothing more to it.
Where he does not confirm your meta evidence and declares M_E town that you suddenly realized he's scum.
Nor do I buy that a player of your experience would clear a player based on a caught scum calling him town.
In my eyes Void just declared himself scum and ME town. Yes, for myself Void was the lynch, not ME. I'll leave you with one post that sums it up. Antnys #433
"
Well that seems to be five votes on Void and five on ME so I'm just gonna leave my vote alone for tonight unless anyone else is shifting their vote."
Yes, Antny sitting squarely on the fence and TMCT's stated preference for M_E are the two posts that suggest there was the slightest chance M_E might still be lynched after Void self-voted. I'll give you that.
After Rhand starts the Void wagon, AE unvotes him says he's undecided between B_E and TMCT, apparently now his two top targets, but here he attacks NNY for forgetting about TMCT today. Also interesting is at the point in the game where he names these two (forgetting about M_E and ignoring Void), the only things he said about either of them is that TMCT was his early town read, the fast wagon votes on B_E early on were terrible, and Rhand's attacks on B_E were bad enough to attack Rhand.
I don't understand what your getting at here. Saying I'm attacking Nny here is a bit harsh. I'm asking him about TMCT since I haven't kept up on him.
I'm withdrawing this point. Rereading now, I see I misinterpreted your post to mean you're are undecided between B_E and TMCT when you were saying you don't have a read on them yet.
Kraj is reaching and taking things out of context in order to make it look like he has something of a case on me. I can't see him being town the way he's presenting this case.
As I've pointed out before, here you're just trying to discredit my case in the exact same fashion Void did to Rhand.
In post 93, he agrees with Void's discrediting of DCIII's townslip.
Haven't played with DCIII. I typically have a suspicious mindset when I don't know who is who.
Um....wouldn't you always have a suspicious mindset about every player on page 1? This point would be a non-issue if DCIII wasn't pretty obviously town and Void confirmed scum, but they are and therefore this is a minor point against you, regardless of your explanation.
In post 312, when prompted for an opinion on Void, AE just says "the meta case?" and dismisses it. He hasn't bothered to read the follow up Rhand posted which he asked for. Maybe he just didn't see it, but at best he isn't trying very hard to actually form an opinion on Void. He then goes on to push the 'information lynch' angle on M_E.
No I missed it which is why I asked Rhand to back it up. I was MIA from the game after that for a few days. My objective at that point was to read the case and see Voids reply. At that point Void self destructs.
Yup, pretty much the explanation I already said I expected. It's just a matter of which explanation rings more true.
Today, in post 510 he is "fine" with a B_E lynch...based on what? He comes out the gate with a case on me, and he's never posted any kind of reason for suspecting B_E at all, but he'd be fine with the lynch? The most he can come up with is that DKingsland thought B_E and Void are scumbuddies and now DKingsland is dead.
His overall behavior. I can't believe it's coming from a townie. There's nothing helpful in his posts.
I agree. But you didn't say that. I can't fault you, though, for not forming a more thorough opinion on B_E. I can't bring myself to reread him either when so many of his posts make my eyes bleed.
In post 471, he calls NNY town, then in 520 calls him scum. NNY's offense? Saying he's read me as town since day 1. Officially reverses his town read stance on NNY in 575, right after NNY votes him, in classic OMGUS fashion.
I'll admit that's a major flaw of mine. When I don't know who's town and someone is attacking me for, in my eyes faulty reasons when I'm town I feel they are trying for a mislynch on purpose.
OK, but admitting a flaw doesn't change the scummy behavior. And you know what? A big flaw of mine is I have a hard time seeing players as scum when they agree with me. So I try to recognize when that's influencing my reads and fix it. I don't just go with it and admit later why I screwed up.
Post #59 when TMCT wanted a yes or no to the town slip Nny posts "The mod's post says that all town roles are Walkers." He also doesn't see it as town slip. He looks to be pushing away from people seeing DCIII and TMCT as town.
Will try to get back on later to answer any questions toward me. But I'll put down my t/s list so we can keep moving.
Town
Rhand. No way he goes after Void when he did if he is his bud.
DCIII. Actively trying to figure things out and his post are not coming across fraudulent. My calling him misguided earlier points to this.
Leaning town.
Antny and Shock I've only skimmed but have not been overly concerned with their efforts in scum hunting.
Null.
I have not paid attention to or reread TMCT this game. I can't recall much of anything from him. That might be more of an issue on my part than it is on his.
Leaning scum.
Nny. Had a town read on him D1. His attitude today is sending up flags. If Kraj turns up scum then I believe I'll move Nny up the ladder toward town.
Scum.
BE/Kraj
Not only is there nothing here he hasn't said before, there's nothing here that everyone else isn't saying other than maybe his opinion on me and NNy. His town reads are everyone else's town reads. His scum reads are the two players he's voted today, plus everyone else's favorite scum read. And not the tiniest scrap of an opinion on the remaining three players. Not one little detail that shows he's bothering to try and form his own opinions on anyone other than me or NNy.
The one thing that bugs me about Kraj's 631 is that in 540 he does say that DCIII's vote was influential in his decision to jump on Void's wagon when he did. The timing may be close but the order is important here as I'm of the impression that if DCIII had stayed on BE's wagon, Kraj stays on MirrorEntity.
Certainly the order is important, but enough to come to two completely opposite conclusions given the rest of the facts? And yes, I likely would have stayed on M_E if someone hadn't placed a 3rd vote on Void and showed that a wagon was viable. As I've said before.
I'm working on a comprehensive response to AE but I don't have time to finish it at the moment. But in a nutshell, I think AE's first set of responses are atrocious and do absolutely nothing to change my opinion. His second set, though, is far more reasonable. While he doesn't dispute the facts I posted, he does provide reasonable alternatives to a scum motivation. On the other hand, they were the weaker set of points against him to begin with. It's enough, though, that I'm willing to lynch B_E and then reevaluate AE.
I'm curious though: why did you only bring this up now? This was definately not the first time I called DCIII town and you possible scum for the development of the Void wagon.
The primary reason is because it's not the first time. I don't feel the need to stamp out every bit of suspicion expressed about me, especially when there are fair points to be made, and especially when I think it'd be picking a fight with another town. But since you've repeated the idea multiple times and made it clear it's an important element to your read on me, I felt it needed to be addressed. Plus it was starting to piss me off.
I don't think it's likely that both BE and AE are scum considering AE's voting pattern on Day 1 and both of their behavior toward each other today.
I'd have to look again at AE's day 1 voting pattern, but if I recall correctly your point about his behavior today was that AE wouldn't bus B_E with the other buddy already dead. If both AE and B_E were low on people's suspect lists day 1 I'd agree, but it's not uncommon for a scum whose teammates have imploded to decide their best shot at winning is to clear themselves by busing the hell out of them. Based on day 1 events, it's entirely reasonable going into day 2 for AE to believe he's in a good position while B_E was vulnerable, especially with M_E out of the picture.
Kraj: I have got a better feeling about him lately. If AE ever flips scum, he's pretty much cleared. His Void vote was not good though, and like I said he did his vote exactly when I would expect a bus vote.
I feel like you're applying a double standard to me and I don't understand why. You say DCIII is town based on how Void's wagon evolved and the ME lynch would have happened without his action, but my vote looks like bussing to you. So compare us:
1. DCIII's vote was 3rd on Void. Mine was 4th, just a couple posts later.
2. When DCIII voted all he said was your case is convincing. When I voted Void, all I had previously said was I would support his wagon.
3. DCIII later argued Void is a better lynch from an information perspective. I later argued Void is a better lynch because of behavioral reasons and added new content to the case on him, which DCIII barned.
We both pushed Void in almost the exact same way at almost the exact same times, yet you have a completely opposite read on how that reflects on our alignment. So please either explain what I'm missing here, or reevaluate your stance on me.
Considering AE hasn't finished responding to my case I'm not inclined to continue arguing his points yet, but:
That is all that happened there, but you’re trying to turn it into something more. You’re opening line of “He seems to be implying” shows that you are not sure yourself, but still decided to put this spin on my post. This is not Town behavior.
Kraj is reaching and taking things out of context in order to make it look like he has something of a case on me. I can't see him being town the way he's presenting this case.
A_E failed to get a wagon going on me with his "Kraj was willing to vote for M_E despite pushing for Void's lynch" case, so now he's trying to discredit my case on him, just like Void tried to do.
/in
I call no Oddjob. And paintball mode.
I was very impressed by DCIII, Rhand, and Antny, and I thought TMCT and Shockwave were both ahead of the curve as far as not being manipulated by the mafia.
Funnily enough, the semi-lurkiness that led the mafia to believe I was a power role was simply me trying to not get lynched. I tend to overplay as town day 1 and have been mislynched several times because of it.
OK. That's fair. Obviously I don't see things the same way but I can't say you're way off base. Except the part about my post 631. I never said mine and DCIII's actions deserved equal treatment, I said they were similar enough that drawing completely opposite conclusions from them doesn't make sense.
I'm curious as to your reasoning for this conclusion. Guess how many people voted for Void between my vote and his self-vote. (Hint: it's zero.)
Yup. I expect to check back before tonight's deadline but I can't guarantee.
Unvote, Vote: Burning Earth
It's nice to know he supports lynching AE, though
I'm not sure how to explain this again any differently.
I had a gut-suspicion of Void but very little evidence to support it.
I was more than happy to lynch M_E, but I did not agree with the wagon on B_E. I did not want to move my vote off of M_E to a wagon that might not go anywhere. With 7 to lynch and the deadline being a factor, and with B_E and M_E as the only two players brought to claim range thus far, 2 or 3 votes might be ignored. With 4 votes, only one more person has to agree to be claim range. That's harder to ignore.
And I'll point you to my earlier statement to Antny: nobody else voted Void before he self-voted. After DCIII, I was the rest of the wagon.
I'll also remind you that it wasn't until Void's response to your case, particularly how he tried to paint you as scummy over it, that convinced me he was scum.
And if you were Cyan, or Seppel, I probably wouldn't blink an eye. But nothing else about your play in this game suggests you are a pure-gut player.
This is nothing more than splitting hairs. You both suggested he shouldn't be resigned to being lynched. You both suggested he might not be lynched. You both said he wouldn't behave this way if he was town. Spinning one was condemnation and the other as just trying to be helpful is nonsense. Besides, why would you feel the need to push ME to straighten out when the last thing you said about him was that you are fine with his lynch?
First of all, all I did with that list of posts was to provide facts. You are the one adding implications to each individual one, not me.
Your claim is that you did not behave exactly as you said you would as scum because, as scum, you would have continued to push M_E to the bitter end, regardless of how obviously scum Void was or how inevitable his lynch looked. And what you actually did was continue to push M_E even after he had made it abundantly clear he was scum, but did not continue to the bitter end.
This is accurate. But I do not buy that, as scum, you would never ever switch over to an obviously doomed buddy in favor of a highly vulnerable townie. Nor do I buy that you still had doubts about Void after he self-voted, but after this post:
Where he does not confirm your meta evidence and declares M_E town that you suddenly realized he's scum.
Nor do I buy that a player of your experience would clear a player based on a caught scum calling him town.
Yes, Antny sitting squarely on the fence and TMCT's stated preference for M_E are the two posts that suggest there was the slightest chance M_E might still be lynched after Void self-voted. I'll give you that.
I'm withdrawing this point. Rereading now, I see I misinterpreted your post to mean you're are undecided between B_E and TMCT when you were saying you don't have a read on them yet.
As I've pointed out before, here you're just trying to discredit my case in the exact same fashion Void did to Rhand.
Um....wouldn't you always have a suspicious mindset about every player on page 1? This point would be a non-issue if DCIII wasn't pretty obviously town and Void confirmed scum, but they are and therefore this is a minor point against you, regardless of your explanation.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying you tried to do.
Yup, pretty much the explanation I already said I expected. It's just a matter of which explanation rings more true.
I agree. But you didn't say that. I can't fault you, though, for not forming a more thorough opinion on B_E. I can't bring myself to reread him either when so many of his posts make my eyes bleed.
OK, but admitting a flaw doesn't change the scummy behavior. And you know what? A big flaw of mine is I have a hard time seeing players as scum when they agree with me. So I try to recognize when that's influencing my reads and fix it. I don't just go with it and admit later why I screwed up.
This is an interesting point.
Lordy, do I have a tough time seeing this as anything but backpedaling.
And since I earlier called his town/scum list awful:
Not only is there nothing here he hasn't said before, there's nothing here that everyone else isn't saying other than maybe his opinion on me and NNy. His town reads are everyone else's town reads. His scum reads are the two players he's voted today, plus everyone else's favorite scum read. And not the tiniest scrap of an opinion on the remaining three players. Not one little detail that shows he's bothering to try and form his own opinions on anyone other than me or NNy.
Certainly the order is important, but enough to come to two completely opposite conclusions given the rest of the facts? And yes, I likely would have stayed on M_E if someone hadn't placed a 3rd vote on Void and showed that a wagon was viable. As I've said before.
The primary reason is because it's not the first time. I don't feel the need to stamp out every bit of suspicion expressed about me, especially when there are fair points to be made, and especially when I think it'd be picking a fight with another town. But since you've repeated the idea multiple times and made it clear it's an important element to your read on me, I felt it needed to be addressed. Plus it was starting to piss me off.
I'd have to look again at AE's day 1 voting pattern, but if I recall correctly your point about his behavior today was that AE wouldn't bus B_E with the other buddy already dead. If both AE and B_E were low on people's suspect lists day 1 I'd agree, but it's not uncommon for a scum whose teammates have imploded to decide their best shot at winning is to clear themselves by busing the hell out of them. Based on day 1 events, it's entirely reasonable going into day 2 for AE to believe he's in a good position while B_E was vulnerable, especially with M_E out of the picture.
I feel like you're applying a double standard to me and I don't understand why. You say DCIII is town based on how Void's wagon evolved and the ME lynch would have happened without his action, but my vote looks like bussing to you. So compare us:
1. DCIII's vote was 3rd on Void. Mine was 4th, just a couple posts later.
2. When DCIII voted all he said was your case is convincing. When I voted Void, all I had previously said was I would support his wagon.
3. DCIII later argued Void is a better lynch from an information perspective. I later argued Void is a better lynch because of behavioral reasons and added new content to the case on him, which DCIII barned.
We both pushed Void in almost the exact same way at almost the exact same times, yet you have a completely opposite read on how that reflects on our alignment. So please either explain what I'm missing here, or reevaluate your stance on me.
Considering AE hasn't finished responding to my case I'm not inclined to continue arguing his points yet, but:
A_E failed to get a wagon going on me with his "Kraj was willing to vote for M_E despite pushing for Void's lynch" case, so now he's trying to discredit my case on him, just like Void tried to do.