This is an interesting build, and I'll admit, I never really tried a version like this. Some thoughts:
*Turning on devotion for your gods might be somehwat difficult, especially for Athreos. Are the gods worth running just as nechantments that provide their effects? You only have 12 non-god creatures, so I could see having difficulty reliably getting early use out of Pharika. Athreos is best suited to exist in an aggressive deck, where the 3 life payment is a very serious cost. If you're not pressuring the opponent much, they'll just pay the 3 life nonchalantly and continue attacking you.
*I don't really care for Nissa, Worldwaker in Constellation lists in this metagame. Last time around, she could wreak havoc on the control decks and devotion decks, as if they couldn't answer her immediately, she buried the opponent in an avalanche of threats. Now, however, with the shift to midrange, her tokens get walled or matched by the opponent's creatures more often, and Hero's Downfall, Utter End, and Banishing Light are everywhere as well. She's still good in a deck that fields a lot of threats and she's just another one, but in a deck that needs her to be the finisher, I'm not so enthusiastic about her abilities. Elspeth is better on defense and provides a similar level of inevitability.
The deck is definitely interesting, though, and a unique take on the Constellation archetype.
Yeah, I mainly posted the decklist here cos I didn't see any brewing threads with decks that looked anything like mine, yet. Although I don't think of my deck as a Constellation deck per se, it's probably closer to this than anything else.
Pharika gets activated pretty frequently, but it's usually when I've managed to stabilize the board with creatures. Since a lot of my permanents give green devotion, it's not as hard as it might seem. Even then, she's extremely valuable when Eidolon is in play, just because her ability allows me to defend myself while drawing more cards. Athreos, on the other hand, is definitely my newest and more experimental inclusion to the deck. I suspect it will give me an edge against enemy sweeps, but who knows? I need to experiment with it more, first.
As for Nissa, I definitely can agree that she's not an amazing finisher for control. Part of it is that I want to have more than one finisher card (I realize nobody cares about Stain the Mind but me right now, but I do think it'll wind up being a sideboard staple soon enough). Another part is that I'm just not sure what else a good second finisher would be for control. I think Garruk is awfully expensive, and Liliana isn't particularly helpful. The Ajani cards, I feel, would actually be pretty good in this deck...but they don't close out games; they just make it a lot harder to lose. Maybe I need to stop being a sissy and just run Garruk instead. I'm open to suggestions, in any case.
I've been trying to brew Abzan control (well, a ton of control decks, since I've endeavored to play Control this year no matter what), and it wound up becoming Abzan "Constellation" in a way, after slowly realizing that the only good drawing engine Abzan has is Eidolon of Blossoms. I've been leaning more towards this wedge for control lately since I feel like Sultai Control isn't moving in an interesting direction, and Jeskai Control - while fun as hell - is just awful early game.
The goal, of course, is to stall into a sweep or stall into a finisher, like most control decks. We're well-suited to do this; since we have large creatures in green in our early plays, we can mitigate a lot of damage. Courser can help us get through our deck faster and gain life, while Sylvan Caryatid is just brilliant in any wedge control deck, due to its mana-fixing. Another added bonus: if you're running a wedge control with Caryatid, all your five mana sweeps are suddenly four-mana sweeps again.
From there, the goal is to get to five mana with at least two white (either by plains or with Caryatid) so that you can sweep at any time. This is easy to do with your stalling and life-gain. It's also made easier because the odds of you hitting five mana without the ability to generate two white mana is extremely low, so it doesn't matter what second land you are splashing in your opening hand, as long as one of them is green. You have access to good removal/stalls no matter what.
The deck obviously relies on Eidolon of Blossoms to move through your library at light speeds. Almost every permanent in the deck is an Enchantment, and I've even included Pharika, to get more consistent access to card draws. The chump blockers can also be an excellent deterrent, and in general, it's just easy to turn Pharika into a creature. Athreos is a little nice, because you can worry a little less about losing your creatures to combat tricks. Now, even if your Courser or Caryatid is taken out, it either doesn't set you back much, or it potentially sets them back a lot. I suspect that losing 3 life to counter Athreos's ability will be more punitive in a 3-color standard, where losing life from your lands is going to be more common.
I run a lot of God cards. The way I see it, even if you have a God card in play, if you also have an Eidolon of Blossoms in play, it's basically free card draw. Athreos draws cards and goes back to your hand. Pharika puts Pharika in the graveyard, so you can then exile the Pharika in your graveyard to draw even more cards. Since the deck is likely going to bank on Eidolon drawing cards, the God cards - whether in play, in your hand, or in your library - are never dead cards.
Otherwise, I have a pretty basic removal suite between Banishing Light, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, and End Hostilities. I feel like it's a little light on removal for control, but at the same time, they are some of the most efficient removal/disruption spells in the format, so it works out pretty well.
As for PW Finishers, obviously Elspeth is in, as she's almost undoubtedly the best control finisher in white. I also took Nissa, because when she sticks, games simply end. Garruk is the better control card of the two, but I don't think that it closes games out as fast. I may put Garruk in my sideboard at some point, but I wanted a finisher that was a little more damning than Elspeth.
As for my sideboard, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Drown in Sorrow are obvious inclusions against aggro matchups. Suspension Field is a good choice against Midrange decks, or any deck running a big angry monster. Agent of Erebos replaces Tormod's Crypt, since we can trigger the Constellation effect very easily. Finally, Stain the Mind is just money against any grindier match. Once you have an idea of how they intend to win the match, you can sideboard in Stain the Mind and just get rid of it.
Cards I ultimately didn't take:
- Abzan Charm: The third mode is extremely fringe, the card draw is unnecessary and even bad when pitted against Eidolon, and the removal is just too conditional.
- Urborg: I just haven't found it necessary yet. My deck doesn't run enough black that I need the fixing, and I definitely don't want to provide it to another deck that needs it more than I do.
- Brain Maggot: It's nice to have a soft-discard effect that triggers Constellation, but Brain Maggot is going to be most effective as an early play (i.e likely before Eidolon is out), it's slower than Thoughtseize, it's very plausible that your opponent can get the card back, and in aggro matchups, it's a liability because it gets killed by Drown in Sorrow. Eidolon is the only creature that gets hit by that in the entire deck right now, and I'd greatly prefer to keep it that way.
- Doomwake Giant: It's an awesome creature, but I feel like I'm better-served by my PW finishers, and I feel like the card is pretty lackluster against decks with big, angry creatures.
- Extinguish All Hope: It's a fantastic card, actually. I just made a personal choice to play a quicker sweep. I figure that if I'm running Athreos, I can also afford to be a bit reckless with my sweeps. Besides that, this deck is pretty good at stabilizing with its creatures. Still, I might ultimately grab this one over End Hostilities. I'll see how it plays out, first.
1. Yeah, no Master of the Feast in mainboard. I think Master is only good against other aggro decks. Midrange and Control are trying to stabilize the board before you win, and they do that with more cards. Helping them get through their deck faster is not something I like very much. That said, I immediately board it in against anything aggro. Hell, even last Standard when I was playing Mono-Blue Devotion, I appreciated Master of the Feast giving me additional devotion for Thassa, while giving me more blockers. It's too much of a gamble for me to play it in the mainboard.
2. Brain Maggots in the main board. I'm typically more worried about what removal an opponent has than anything else. If they have lots of creatures, they are probably an aggro deck where I can get good mileage off of Bile Blight. If they are gonna put out a huge doomlord, I can Crippling Blight/Hero's Downfall them and keep racing. Brain Maggot, to me, is the way to go for getting rid of their Lightning Strikes, kill spells, sweeps, etc. because I can potentially still attack with it and it doesn't lose life.
3. No Thoughtseize, no Boon of Erebos, and no non-creature cards that cause me to lose life. This is mainly a consideration for playing other aggro decks. I built a Mardu aggro deck, and while it is technically faster than MBA, it virtually always loses to MBA because of its need to run pain lands/Mana Confluence to be consistent. Thoughtseize and Boon are good - no doubt - but if you don't know what to expect from your local meta, I think it's best to prepare the mainboard to be well-balanced in any type of matchup. Hence, no life-loss effects in the mainboard. I might ultimately put these in my sideboard, but I'm testing the deck without them right now.
4. Definitely Hall of Triumph. There are quite a lot of cases where casting Hall of Triumph nets you more damage than playing a creature in this deck. If you have three creatures in play, there's no better card for maximizing damage other than Master of the Feast.
5. Sideboard is not complete. I like most of it, but what I'm iffy on is the extra Brain Maggot, the extra Bile Blight, and the Feast of Dreams. This deck, in my opinion, is tough to find good sideboard options for.
The thing that strikes me as weird about that article, is that he laments that sweeps are now 5-CMC, but he's playing a control deck with a mana dork...and, more importantly, a mana-dork that can tap for any color of mana. It's not only possible, but very plausible, to play a sweep on turn 4 with a control deck that splashes green. I think that's a big strength of Sultai Control, and I think it will also be a big strength if Bant/Abzan control becomes a thing, too.
In fact, when I look at his deck, I honestly think that Blue doesn't add very much too it. Losing Clever Impersonator is a big deal, but you could play End Hostilities/Elspeth/Banishing Light focus harder on PW finishers in general. ...I kind of want to brew Abzan Control, now.
I've moved Murderous Cut into the sideboard of my deck, in favor of Bile Blight.
My original post-rotation decklist used Hero's Downfall, Bile Blight, and Pharika's Cure as removal, since there was nothing better. Naturally, Sultai Charm is better in almost every way than Pharika's Cure...but, Murderous Cut is just too slow against certain decks. If I'm fighting an aggro deck, the game might very well be over before I have the chance to cast it. Bile Blight, on the other hand, is live against almost every deck, and knocks it out of the park against aggro matchups.
I'm not good enough at MtG to say for sure, but I've been wondering lately if cheaper, conditional removal (like Bile Blight and Pharika's Cure) are going to have a solid place in Standard for no other reason than unconditional removal is getting slightly more expensive to cast. Against some decks, one turn can make a pretty serious difference.
So, with Sultai Ascendancy spoiled, what do people think of running that in control as opposed to Jace TLGP?
Pros:
- Less Mana
- Much more control over your deck with SulAscendancy's modified Scry, compared to TLGP's "This-or-that" +1 ability
- Possibly better in creature-based decks attempting to run Sidisi as a finisher, or decks relying more heavily on Delve mechanics
- Harder to remove for creature-based decks (admittedly may not be relevant; with Wedge decks, it's pretty hard not to have access to enchantment hate)
Cons:
- Potentially slower to play than TLGP if you don't get the right mana early
- Losing access to Jace's other Planeswalker abilities, which are pretty useful in control (iirc, TLGP's ultimate is the only way to shuffle your GY into your library after rotation)
- One less permanent for your opponent to spend their Banishing Light/Hero's Downfall on instead of Kiora/Nissa
What do you guys think? Personally, I would choose Sultai Ascendancy over Jace; but, I am biased against Jace, so I'm interested in hearing the other side, as well.
1. Some of the removal spells are crappy, mainly because a lot of the good ones are being phased out. I'm predicting I will probably remove the Pharika's Cures or the Bile Blights for the newly-spoiled Sultai Charm. Waiting to see what else is spoiled.
2. I'm almost certainly going to replace some Islands and Swamps with Polluted Deltas.
3. On the subject of lands, I have a lot of basic lands. The Scrylands are obviously good, and Scry helps the deck a ton; but, trying to run too many always winds up going poorly for me. I settled on six.
4. I run pretty low Aetherspouts. I have actually kept up with the BUG Control thread in the Competitive forum, and I know that the consensus is that Aetherspouts is extremely powerful (and I agree). But ultimately, I like having some copies of Perilous Vault in the main board. Partly because of the impact it can have on what an opponent might do when it's put into play, and partly because I think the interaction (or non-interaction, I guess) with Nissa +1 ability and Vault is a very decisive way to close out a game. Also, once you play Aetherspouts, people worry about it being surprised by it from then on. Just having your opponent believe you have an Aetherspouts in your hand can be as good as actually having it.
5. My sideboard almost certainly needs some work. A large part of it is that, when building these wonky post-rotation decks, the only feedback you will get is from playing decks that aren't post-rotation. Thus, some things ultimately might not be as useful in the future (Mistcutter Hydra comes to mind as something that will probably be less relevant once Blue Devo phases out). Hornet Nest is also pretty funny, but I've recently began to wonder if it's all that necessary; the deck already seems to do very well against aggro decks without it, so Hornet Nest might be overkill (and having it competing for the 3-mana slot with Dissolve and Hero's Downfall isn't doing it any favors, either). I have Garruk in the sideboard as well, because even though he is amazing when he works out, it's very frustrating to get him in my opening hand...especially in a deck where I need to have some meaningful early plays to survive. I keep it mainly to board in against walker decks.
6. ...I'm not running Jace. At least, not right now. In a twist of fate, the Sultai mechanic is of course Delve, so perhaps I will put Jace back in my deck in some form in the future. Right now, however, I've been boned too many times by losing a card I needed from Jace's +1. Perhaps I just suck at using TLGPJace.
Yeah, you definitely have a point in that U/W is an obvious target to be rushed down if people are aware of what's happening. In my case, I predicted - correctly - that most of the people playing in my draft had little to no experience playing multiplayer free-for-all in anything besides EDH. Regardless, while U/W can definitely not handle being stomped, it also only takes one player not-attacking U/W to cause trouble for everyone else. Vow of Duty also seriously helps with this; Vow the first big creature to hit the board, and you've potentially stopped a 3v1. If you're lucky enough to draft Silent Arbiter, you're also well-equipped to siege it out.
A lot of the work in dodging a stomp lies in subterfuge (this is relevant to "U/W will get stomped", but it's important for any deck in a FFA):
- Absolutely crush the first attempt to attack you, if possible. If you still have a lot of cards in your hand, it makes people wonder if you can do it again. For that matter, keep cards in your hand - even lands, if necessary. Put on your poker face.
- Make it attractive for people not to attack you by protecting them. Figure out who the next strongest person is - or the person who will grant you the most benefit while alive - and align yourself with them.
- If an interaction you're involved in goes negatively for someone else, make sure you divert the blame to anyone else possible (even very smart people readily accept nearly any reason in this situation as long as they can follow your rationale...however ridiculous it might be).
- You can even make "dodo plays" - intentionally suboptimal/weird/slow plays - at first to try and hide the nature of your strategy; or, if it's obvious what your strategy is, you can make it look like you're unable to fully-implement it. This is effective not only at avoiding a stomp, but there's also a big mind-game element to anyone familiar with FFA strategies; if they gain control of the board first, they may still be wary to attack you, because there's no way to tell if you're doing it on purpose, or if you really don't have plays to make. If two people have roughly even control of the board, diverting their resources to anything but their current arms race is a danger to them; even if one or both suspects you're making a dodo play, leaving themselves open to assault from the other one is likely going to be their more immediate concern.
Basically, FFA magic is like playing Mario Kart - the only time you wanna be in first place is when you're about to cross the finish line. Last place (i.e the players with the weakest board state) fight a huge uphill battle, and the people in first/second place are going to get hit by Blue Turtle Shells (i.e every creature and targeted spell from everybody). So, always try to be in the middle position (i.e it takes some resources an effort to attack/disrupt you, but you're also in a good position to step in and win).
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On a different note, I also think that grabbing an artifact creature every draft is a solid move. Lurking Automaton is basically always good, Canal Dredger is always a useful blocker, and Cogwork Grinder is excellent if people are drafting the same color as you - the earlier you grab it, the better. They ensure that if you aren't working towards a creature-based strategy, you can still have some dangerous creatures on the field. Even if you ARE building a creature-based deck, it can still be a good idea. In the draft where I pulled Reign of the Pit, my sacrifice toward the demon token was an 8/8 Lurking Automaton. Even if your opponents can sacrifice weak creatures, you're in good shape if you can sac a strong one.
I don't understand what the problem is with seven counterspells...I mean, yes - I've seen powerful control decks that run very few, but a lot of the ones I've seen run about 6-7. And, just to make sure I'm not crazy, I looked up U/W and Esper Control decks that are placing in tournaments right now, and there seems to be a "2 counters" variant and "way more than 2, but definitely not 8" variant. I'm considering possibly dropping some from the main deck; but, I'm actually more worried that I have too many in my sideboard.
I'm still not really convinced that Perilous Vault is bad for this deck. Literally no creature in my main deck is there to attack; they're all there because they can block small creatures, or because I value their static/triggered/activated abilities. Since they are just there for their effects it doesn't matter if they're still there when I wipe the board - everything I wanted to disrupt is gone, and I will have wiped the board on my own terms, i.e wipe the board with a good hand and drop Kiora/Nissa, both of which can protect themselves just fine.
Furthermore, wiping the board with Perilous Vault is really strong in tandem with resolving Kiora or Nissa's ultimates, which are my actual win conditions. Once Kiora's emblem is out, just wipe the board and have fun getting a 9/9 Kraken every turn. If Nissa's ultimate is resolved, pass the turn, activate vault at the end of their turn, and then swing with your lands to win immediately.
The only situation here that's suboptimal for me is if a deck gets rolling so fast that I can't stabilize the board with my creatures, I'll drop the bare minimum and wipe early. It's not the best scenario; but, there's no saying I HAVE to play every creature I draw before wiping the board with Vault.
Anyways. I'm sure your deck is good, but cool ramp decks with U/G have already been made. If I was interested in doing that, I'd probably make that U/G version of Colossal Gruul that I've seen on here, and try to prepare it for the coming rotation. But, that deck has already been made. I want to see if I can make something worthwhile with U/G using a different deck archetype. You're obviously welcome to the opinion that I'm crazy, but I'd prefer if you post suggestions on how I can refine my idea, rather than what you think I should be playing instead.
I've played two conspiracy drafts so far, and I'm going to a third one tonight. So, in order to prepare, I've just been thinking about it and reading about it...so, I'll also write about it.
The first game, which was a "tourney", I guess, I played U/W control, based on Brago, King Eternal. ...Or, I tried, anyways. Here, I actually posted the deck that I drafted for the purposes of analysis:
I enjoy playing games competitively, but most of my friends do not. As such, we play a lot of Free-For-All, multiplayer MTG. I had a lot of experience in the statecraft that goes into winning a multiplayer game. When I got Brago as my first drafted card, I knew that the best thing I could do was make a deck that was extremely discouraging to fight against.
This had an extra bonus effect that I hadn't really considered - A lot of removal/disruption etc. can be used in a "group hug" sort of way. A few people in my final game (it was three pods of four, and the top 2 from each game went on to a 6-player FFA) had re-usable Parlay effects, so I protected them while they basically ran rampant on the game. Since they were the most aggressive, they got taken out, but they left everyone else in a terrible state. When it was down to me and the final opponent, I had only lost two life, and had probably nine or ten cards in my hand thanks to rampant Parlaying.
Earning a reputation for ruining any attempts at an offense made against you also goes a long way, so long as you don't actually do any fighting. I also am convinced that if you are serious about winning, you're crazy not to splash blue, as having counterspells is the only way to dodge getting insta-gibbed by a huge Deathforge Shaman kick. (I actually did survive this exact situation in my game, but only because I showed the guy that I had Rout, and promised that I would use it in response and that he would die. Would he have? I dunno, but he only had four life left, so probably. Did he make the right choice? Nah, probably not. lol)
But, essentially, my plan worked out really well; I got Soulbinders, Brago, and Rout in my hand. I got my Minamo Scrollkeeper out, and a bunch of other deterrents. Once it was down to the me and the last player, I cast Rout on his turn, and with a ton of cards in my hand, I set to work getting out all my creatures ASAP, and tore in with an 8/8 Soulbinders that I could use Brago to flicker over and over again. I think I had fourteen 1/1 fliers by the time I won.
Finally, as card advantage is a huge part of the U/W strategy, Iterative Analysis is __extremely_ good as a conspiracy, as well as any nonsense that lets you draw cards (i.e Runed Servitor).
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The second game I played was a much more casual game between just me and three other friends. I tried to make a deck that would win, cos that's how I always have fun, and I wound up going with B/W control (the first thing I drew was Reign of the Pit. I tried to make it mono-black, but I wound up splashing white just because I love having vote control (which was extremely helpful in my U/W deck, as well), and between Brago's Representative and Grudge Keeper, you can have your cake and eat it, too. This wound up being a great idea, because I also pulled Magister of Worth - how's that for good fortune?
The thing that's tough about black in any multiplayer game is that it's very powerful in multiplayer. Even a lot of cards outside of conspiracy that are black hit each opponent. Ever played in a multiplayer game with Blind Obedience? Or any extort, for that matter? It's an easy way to get people to kill you. In conspiracy, obviously, it's no different. The trick is to only play something like that if you can somehow rationalize it to the rest of the group...no matter how ridiculous it is. For example, I responded to an innocuous attack against me early game with a Smallpox. Two people wound up getting mana-screwed, but I managed to shift the blame onto the person who attacked me, so I was relatively safe.
I made this deck around flying deterrents, as well. Custodi Squire absolutely rules you. It's not only strong in draft, but being able to use them to return cards to your hand is amazing, especially later in the game when you can reasonably have the mana to cast Squire AND the card you returned to your hand. Also, using a Squire to return a Squire to your hand is a good way to make Custodi Squire into a faux-indestructible creature.
Nonetheless, I did lose. Because of my interest in not eliminating people quickly (since it was all friends and no prize on the line), I left a friend alive who made a G/R deck that abused Vent Sentinel. So, of course, he went kingmaker on me and tapped two Sentinels to deal six damage to me, then attacked me with Copperhorn Scout so he could untap and deal six MORE damage to me! So, I lost, but I basically had control of that game the whole game. Removal and fliers is surprisingly resilient.
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I'm convinced that U/W is the best way to go if you're playing the long game in Conspiracy. Black is fun, and if you can reasonably make an Esper Control deck, then go for it; but, I think that's usually going to be too difficult. U/W in tandem has the most deterrence, which is perhaps better in multiplayer than flat-out removal; if you kill a creature, people want to retaliate. If you just make it hard to attack you, they consider it reasonable and leave you alone. Green has a lot of powerful creatures, but since there's a plethora of strong artifact creatures, I don't think it's necessary to draft a color for creature base. All colors have good low-CMC creatures (although U/W is the strongest in that regard too, imo). I don't think it's impossible to win without U/W, but I think it's much harder. Green, Red, and Black make enemies (although Red is surprisingly better in Conspiracy than I would have guessed), while Blue and White really don't.
Small update: I switched out Unravel the Aether of Curse of the Swine. This seemed like a good way to deal with God cards while also giving me more sweeps. In some cases, even replacing a 2/2 with a 2/2 Pig is a good move, just because it lowers their devotion. I think I'm pretty happy with this, so far. More utility.
Current thoughts:
- Maybe I have too many counterspells in the main deck? Maybe moving down to six or five would be good.
- Aetherspouts is really awesome...but maybe I should sideboard it? I'm still not sure just yet, because no one in my area really plays aggro. Hitting only one creature with Aetherspouts isn't exactly the worst thing ever...but, at that point, why not just Curse it? I'll try and play more before making this decision.
I've updated the decklist in the initial post based on some suggestions given here, although I've stuck to my guns in other ways (I'm not ready to give up Dakra or Vault). I've also reworked the sideboard considerably.
Some things I'm thinking about:
1. I wonder if Reclamation Sage would be better than Unravel the Aether? I like Unravel the Aether because it allows me to deal with a God that I wasn't able to counter...but at the same time, Reclamation Sage does give me removal and a body to block with. Having more creatures in the sideboard also means I could technically put Polymorphist's Jest back in the deck without it being a poor choice.
2. I wonder what the best creature counters are going to be, post-rotation? I'd only noticed today that Essence Scatter is out. I've put in Nullify for now...
3. I really love Swan Song, and want to put it in this deck; but, I can't help but wonder if it's a trap of a card. It might be better in a deck that can handle more creatures; but while a 1 CMC counterspell sounds nice, I'm thinking that giving more creatures to my opponent - at least in this case - may not be a wise decision.
4. The more I toy with this deck, the more I've decided that I really, really like Prophet of Kruphix in it. I'm debating whether I should get a third one in exchange for a Perilous Vault...or, if I should keep it at two, and even just move my Vault count down to two? Three sounds nice if I have an emergency, but at the same time, it can become a reliability if I get it without needing it.
Thanks so far for the advice. I'm still interested in hearing what you guys have to say.
Perilous Vault is an absolutely horrid choice for removal for you. Over half your non-land cards are affected by it. Currently the way I see it is you're playing a tap-out control strategy. Perilous Vault is the last thing a deck like that wants.
I think Prophet of Kruphix is an interesting choice if you have more instants or creatures in your deck.
I would:
-4 Perilous Vault
+4 Aetherspouts
I also like Voyaging Satyr in this list for a couple reasons.
1. It synergizes with Polymorphist's Jest in that it has 1 power and 2 toughness.
2. It ramps you into turn 4 Nissa, Prophet or Aetherspouts.
With the Bow of Nylea, you do realize your creatures have to be attacking to get deathtouch right? It's also a legendary permanent. So I'd - those and + your creatures to better synergize with Prophet and protect your planeswalkers.
Hmm. My logic for using Perilous Vault was to intentionally wipe the board after resolving either Planeswalker ultimate; but it's true that if I need to wipe any time before that, it's not very good for me. I think I will still keep some in the main deck, but not four. I'm more than happy to put Aetherspouts into the main deck, but do you think it's necessary to run Polymorphist's Jest AND Aetherspouts? Having both seems excessive, but I could also be full of it.
And yeah...I realize NOW that Bow of Nylea doesn't help me like I thought it would. I'll be removing those for sure. I really want to like that card, lol...but it never does quite what I need it to for any green deck I conceptualize.
Quote from Zaghrog » »
Do you realise that Bow of Nylea only grants deathtouch to attacking creatures? Your deck doesn't look to be good at attacking.
Dakra Mystic Doesn't seem a very good card for a control deck unless you're always milling with it. Giving your opponent cards is not what a control deck wants to do. It does interact favorably with the Courser but Im not sure it's good enough.
You said fliers were a problem: how about creatures with reach? There are several in green, but Arbor Colossus is probably the most powerful one.
3-mana counterspells are not very good against aggro decks: I'd recommend moving Essence Scatter to the main.
Did you watch the Block Pro Tour coverage? Basically every green deck played 4 Courser and 4 Sylvan Caryatid. Allows you to play Courser on turn three before making a land drop. Also on that Pro Tour: Prognostic Sphinx. That seems like a decent finisher.
It's true that Dakra does give them cards, but you can deny them the important stuff...moreso if you actually know whether you want the next card in your deck. I intend to play with that idea extensively before I make the decision to remove it.
Fliers may not be as large of a problem as I originally thought, if I'm running Polymorphist's Jest, and especially Aetherspouts. And, yeah, I could always counter them.
I do like the idea of Essence Scatter in the main deck, except for if I fight another control deck. Still, against basically any other type of deck, it might be preferable to seven 3CMC counterspells. I think I'll probably make that change.
Actually, I meant to put Sylvan Caryatid under the list of cards I considered for this deck; but, I guess I forgot, cos I was really tired when I wrote it. I agree that the ramp is excellent, but as LordGrimpow suggested, I wonder if Voyaging Satyr might be better for this deck? It can actually kill stuff when I use Polymorphist's Jest, it can untap any land, and being able to untap lands in general has some synergy with Nissa's ability to make land creatures. My only concern about Voyaging Satyr if that if he has to block against an aggro deck and I don't have Polymorphist's Jest, he's almost certainly going to die.
I have to go to work, but I'll think about what you guys have said. I appreciate the advice!
I'm trying to get back into Magic, and I'm also trying to start playing seriously. I've done well in some local tournaments with premade decks I've seen online, but I still like to make my own decks to improve my skills in assessing the worth of cards. When I make my own stuff, I usually try to make U/G decks, since they're my favorite colors. I thought I'd try and make Control decks, since I lack experience playing them, and it also seemed like a good challenge to make a Control deck without White. However, I did look at U/W Control decks as a jumping off point.
I had two rules making the deck:
1. U/G only. I'm not ready to try and make three-color decks yet, and I'm also just partial to U/G.
2. No cards that will be phased out this fall, i.e nothing from Magic 2014 or the RTR block.
(also, a third caveat: I'm interested in trying to make U/G Control work. I know there's plenty of great U/G Decks out there, but I'm trying to challenge myself to make a functional deck of this specific type, with these specific colors. Please don't post completely different types of decks.)
Bear in mind, I'm still quite the novice, so I'm absolutely open to suggestions and criticisms. What follows is the decklist, as well as my rationale for all my choices.
-2 Unravel the Aether, +2 Curse of the Swine. Yeah, I can't use it to deal with enchantments on the board, but I find that creatures give me a harder time. This is a great way to handle God cards, as well as huge doomlord beaters, like Desecration Demon and Blood Baron. ...A lot of people play Black Devo in my area.
V.2 Changes:
1. -1 Perilous Vault, -3 Bow of Nylea, +4 Sylvan Caryatid. Having access to a larger mana pool, as well as a good blocker against aggro decks, was important to me. I removed Bow of Nylea for this, because I had read the card improperly in the first place and had it in the deck for a purpose it couldn't fulfill. I also removed one Perilous Vault, because while I still think it's useful in this deck, I really don't need one in my opening hand. I might get rid of a second one in the future.
2. -3 Polymorphist's Jest, +3 Aetherspouts. I like Polymorphist's Jest better in general, but I don't really have the creature base to take advantage of turning all my opponent's creatures into 1/1s. Jest sounds like a better trick for a blue aggro deck.
3. Completely redid sideboard. Almost everything about the old sideboard has changed, because not a lot of thought was originally put into it in the first place. Hopefully, this sideboard seems a little more well put-together.
Card Explanations:
Eight dual-lands seemed good, and naturally, the scry lands would have to go in there, as well. I could have added more scry lands, but I also thought more basic lands would be a good choice with Nissa in my deck. I would have really liked to have ten forests for that reason... but, I really wanted a third Bow of Nylea, and there's too much blue in this deck to have nine islands instead.
Dakra Mystic and Courser of Kruphix are here to speed up my deck. If I get a Dakra Mystic in my opening hand and don't get much else that I need, I can use it to draw into some plays as quickly as possible. Courser of Kruphix is great for basically everything; speeding up my deck, as well as buying time and being a good blocker against aggro. But, I also think that Dakra + Courser make a good combo; since I know what card I will draw into, if I don't like the card on the top of my library, I can just mill my opponent while speeding through my deck. Also, if I don't have a land on top of my deck at the start of my turn, I can use Dakra to move through my deck and find one, if I think it's necessary.
Prophet of Kruphix is just there to make sure I can make big plays while being ready to play reactive spells on my opponent's turn. This is one of the cards I'm most ambivalent about currently, as I'm not sure I can really take advantage of it as well as other decklists with more instants and creatures might.
In the second version of my deck, I've added Sylvan Caryatid. This gives me mana accel, a good blocker against aggro decks, a way to gain life with Courser of Kruphix the same turn it comes out, and it gives me some green devotion, which is now relevant because I've put Nylea's Disciple in my sideboard.
These are basically my win cons. If I can cast with Kiora's or Nissa's ultimates, I'm in great shape. Resolving either one would allow me to freely wipe the board with Perilous Vault, as I will either start accumulating 9/9 Krakens on an empty board, or I can swing with an army of 4/4 Lands and immediately win, since Vault won't destroy the land-creatures. Either one also protects me decently well against different types of decks.
Basic stuff. Counterspells are counterspells, and I tried to pick the best general-purpose ones for the main deck. Aetherspouts will really ruin an opponent who doesn't attack carefully, and it gives me a second chance to counter any big threat they put back on the top of their deck.
Perilous Vault is an obvious choice. It's a good sweeper that can be used in U/G, it can be done at instant-speed (when I have it in play, of course), and it works especially well with both my Planeswalkers. I think I would be crazy not to add this. In the second version of this deck, I removed one, because it's not a play that I intend to make early; I have it solely for big emergencies, or to sweep the board after resolving either Planeswalker ultimate. Naturally, not something I really want in my opening hand.
I admit, I'm a total noob at sideboarding. But, here's my rationale in any case:
- With deck real-estate at a premium, I was looking for a single card which would really bolster my chances against aggro, and I found Nylea's Disciple. The lifegain, combined with the a P/T of 3, will help me stall for a while longer until I can stabilize the board. In a best-case scenario, I can gain put this in play on turn 4 and have gained six life between Disciple and Courser.
- Nullify is aimed at aggro decks, which I think will probably be my biggest weakness. Gainsay is obviously good against anything with blue (and especially good if Blue Devo Aggro manages to be good after rotation).
- Phyrexian Revoker is the new Pithing Needle...but, since it's more susceptible to removal and disruption, I thought it would be wise to have at least two, just in case.
- Unravel the Aether, I felt, would be the best substitute for something like Deicide. I considered Fade Into Antiquity for this reason as well, but I decided that the lower CMC, the better. I thought even harder about Reclamation Sage, as having it around to chump block would help me against aggro; however, it leaves me with no way to handle a God card after it resolves, and I don't think I have to worry too much about Artifacts in aggro. Maybe that will change if M15 and Khans really does allow for Artifact-based aggro decks. I'll wait and see.
7. Cards I've thought about putting in the deck
I can't find a place for these cards in my deck, but I know they are useful. I'm interested in seeing what other people think about these.
Polukranos, World Eater sounded like a brilliant card until I realized that I read its monstrous ability wrong. I don't think that I would be able to use its Monstrosity ability to effectively deal with creatures in a timely manner, and I have Perilous Vault for that, anyways. I don't think I need any separate wincons besides Kiora and Nissa, either.
Kruphix, God of Horizons is also another card I love; but, I think that strategies based around Kruphix run so contrary to Kiora. Kiora needs to be protected so she can make huge creatures for me. Kruphix demands that I take up real-estate in my deck for huge, crazy cards like Tromokratis or Colossus of Akros. That doesn't sound bad, but it's definitely not the strategy I'm running for this deck. Besides that, with Prophet of Kruphix, I constantly have blue mana at my disposal, which seems more useful to me.
Anyways, any feedback is appreciated! This decklist may, of course, change as Khans of Tarkir is spoiled. It might wind up being completely terrible (if it somehow already isn't). But, if this winds up being worth making, the idea here is to have something I can play as soon as Khans goes live. Thanks for reading!
Yeah, I mainly posted the decklist here cos I didn't see any brewing threads with decks that looked anything like mine, yet. Although I don't think of my deck as a Constellation deck per se, it's probably closer to this than anything else.
Pharika gets activated pretty frequently, but it's usually when I've managed to stabilize the board with creatures. Since a lot of my permanents give green devotion, it's not as hard as it might seem. Even then, she's extremely valuable when Eidolon is in play, just because her ability allows me to defend myself while drawing more cards. Athreos, on the other hand, is definitely my newest and more experimental inclusion to the deck. I suspect it will give me an edge against enemy sweeps, but who knows? I need to experiment with it more, first.
As for Nissa, I definitely can agree that she's not an amazing finisher for control. Part of it is that I want to have more than one finisher card (I realize nobody cares about Stain the Mind but me right now, but I do think it'll wind up being a sideboard staple soon enough). Another part is that I'm just not sure what else a good second finisher would be for control. I think Garruk is awfully expensive, and Liliana isn't particularly helpful. The Ajani cards, I feel, would actually be pretty good in this deck...but they don't close out games; they just make it a lot harder to lose. Maybe I need to stop being a sissy and just run Garruk instead. I'm open to suggestions, in any case.
Here's what I've currently got:
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Silence
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Llanowar Wastes
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Banishing Light
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants/Sorceries
4 Hero's Downfall
4 End Hostilities
3 Thoughtseize
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Suspension Field
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Agent of Erebos
2 Stain the Mind
The goal, of course, is to stall into a sweep or stall into a finisher, like most control decks. We're well-suited to do this; since we have large creatures in green in our early plays, we can mitigate a lot of damage. Courser can help us get through our deck faster and gain life, while Sylvan Caryatid is just brilliant in any wedge control deck, due to its mana-fixing. Another added bonus: if you're running a wedge control with Caryatid, all your five mana sweeps are suddenly four-mana sweeps again.
From there, the goal is to get to five mana with at least two white (either by plains or with Caryatid) so that you can sweep at any time. This is easy to do with your stalling and life-gain. It's also made easier because the odds of you hitting five mana without the ability to generate two white mana is extremely low, so it doesn't matter what second land you are splashing in your opening hand, as long as one of them is green. You have access to good removal/stalls no matter what.
The deck obviously relies on Eidolon of Blossoms to move through your library at light speeds. Almost every permanent in the deck is an Enchantment, and I've even included Pharika, to get more consistent access to card draws. The chump blockers can also be an excellent deterrent, and in general, it's just easy to turn Pharika into a creature. Athreos is a little nice, because you can worry a little less about losing your creatures to combat tricks. Now, even if your Courser or Caryatid is taken out, it either doesn't set you back much, or it potentially sets them back a lot. I suspect that losing 3 life to counter Athreos's ability will be more punitive in a 3-color standard, where losing life from your lands is going to be more common.
I run a lot of God cards. The way I see it, even if you have a God card in play, if you also have an Eidolon of Blossoms in play, it's basically free card draw. Athreos draws cards and goes back to your hand. Pharika puts Pharika in the graveyard, so you can then exile the Pharika in your graveyard to draw even more cards. Since the deck is likely going to bank on Eidolon drawing cards, the God cards - whether in play, in your hand, or in your library - are never dead cards.
Otherwise, I have a pretty basic removal suite between Banishing Light, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, and End Hostilities. I feel like it's a little light on removal for control, but at the same time, they are some of the most efficient removal/disruption spells in the format, so it works out pretty well.
As for PW Finishers, obviously Elspeth is in, as she's almost undoubtedly the best control finisher in white. I also took Nissa, because when she sticks, games simply end. Garruk is the better control card of the two, but I don't think that it closes games out as fast. I may put Garruk in my sideboard at some point, but I wanted a finisher that was a little more damning than Elspeth.
As for my sideboard, Nyx-Fleece Ram and Drown in Sorrow are obvious inclusions against aggro matchups. Suspension Field is a good choice against Midrange decks, or any deck running a big angry monster. Agent of Erebos replaces Tormod's Crypt, since we can trigger the Constellation effect very easily. Finally, Stain the Mind is just money against any grindier match. Once you have an idea of how they intend to win the match, you can sideboard in Stain the Mind and just get rid of it.
Cards I ultimately didn't take:
- Abzan Charm: The third mode is extremely fringe, the card draw is unnecessary and even bad when pitted against Eidolon, and the removal is just too conditional.
- Urborg: I just haven't found it necessary yet. My deck doesn't run enough black that I need the fixing, and I definitely don't want to provide it to another deck that needs it more than I do.
- Brain Maggot: It's nice to have a soft-discard effect that triggers Constellation, but Brain Maggot is going to be most effective as an early play (i.e likely before Eidolon is out), it's slower than Thoughtseize, it's very plausible that your opponent can get the card back, and in aggro matchups, it's a liability because it gets killed by Drown in Sorrow. Eidolon is the only creature that gets hit by that in the entire deck right now, and I'd greatly prefer to keep it that way.
- Doomwake Giant: It's an awesome creature, but I feel like I'm better-served by my PW finishers, and I feel like the card is pretty lackluster against decks with big, angry creatures.
- Extinguish All Hope: It's a fantastic card, actually. I just made a personal choice to play a quicker sweep. I figure that if I'm running Athreos, I can also afford to be a bit reckless with my sweeps. Besides that, this deck is pretty good at stabilizing with its creatures. Still, I might ultimately grab this one over End Hostilities. I'll see how it plays out, first.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Pain Seer
3 Brain Maggot
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Herald of Torment
2 Bile Blight
2 Crippling Blight
1 Hall of Triumph
1. Yeah, no Master of the Feast in mainboard. I think Master is only good against other aggro decks. Midrange and Control are trying to stabilize the board before you win, and they do that with more cards. Helping them get through their deck faster is not something I like very much. That said, I immediately board it in against anything aggro. Hell, even last Standard when I was playing Mono-Blue Devotion, I appreciated Master of the Feast giving me additional devotion for Thassa, while giving me more blockers. It's too much of a gamble for me to play it in the mainboard.
2. Brain Maggots in the main board. I'm typically more worried about what removal an opponent has than anything else. If they have lots of creatures, they are probably an aggro deck where I can get good mileage off of Bile Blight. If they are gonna put out a huge doomlord, I can Crippling Blight/Hero's Downfall them and keep racing. Brain Maggot, to me, is the way to go for getting rid of their Lightning Strikes, kill spells, sweeps, etc. because I can potentially still attack with it and it doesn't lose life.
3. No Thoughtseize, no Boon of Erebos, and no non-creature cards that cause me to lose life. This is mainly a consideration for playing other aggro decks. I built a Mardu aggro deck, and while it is technically faster than MBA, it virtually always loses to MBA because of its need to run pain lands/Mana Confluence to be consistent. Thoughtseize and Boon are good - no doubt - but if you don't know what to expect from your local meta, I think it's best to prepare the mainboard to be well-balanced in any type of matchup. Hence, no life-loss effects in the mainboard. I might ultimately put these in my sideboard, but I'm testing the deck without them right now.
4. Definitely Hall of Triumph. There are quite a lot of cases where casting Hall of Triumph nets you more damage than playing a creature in this deck. If you have three creatures in play, there's no better card for maximizing damage other than Master of the Feast.
5. Sideboard is not complete. I like most of it, but what I'm iffy on is the extra Brain Maggot, the extra Bile Blight, and the Feast of Dreams. This deck, in my opinion, is tough to find good sideboard options for.
In fact, when I look at his deck, I honestly think that Blue doesn't add very much too it. Losing Clever Impersonator is a big deal, but you could play End Hostilities/Elspeth/Banishing Light focus harder on PW finishers in general. ...I kind of want to brew Abzan Control, now.
My original post-rotation decklist used Hero's Downfall, Bile Blight, and Pharika's Cure as removal, since there was nothing better. Naturally, Sultai Charm is better in almost every way than Pharika's Cure...but, Murderous Cut is just too slow against certain decks. If I'm fighting an aggro deck, the game might very well be over before I have the chance to cast it. Bile Blight, on the other hand, is live against almost every deck, and knocks it out of the park against aggro matchups.
I'm not good enough at MtG to say for sure, but I've been wondering lately if cheaper, conditional removal (like Bile Blight and Pharika's Cure) are going to have a solid place in Standard for no other reason than unconditional removal is getting slightly more expensive to cast. Against some decks, one turn can make a pretty serious difference.
Pros:
- Less Mana
- Much more control over your deck with SulAscendancy's modified Scry, compared to TLGP's "This-or-that" +1 ability
- Possibly better in creature-based decks attempting to run Sidisi as a finisher, or decks relying more heavily on Delve mechanics
- Harder to remove for creature-based decks (admittedly may not be relevant; with Wedge decks, it's pretty hard not to have access to enchantment hate)
Cons:
- Potentially slower to play than TLGP if you don't get the right mana early
- Losing access to Jace's other Planeswalker abilities, which are pretty useful in control (iirc, TLGP's ultimate is the only way to shuffle your GY into your library after rotation)
- One less permanent for your opponent to spend their Banishing Light/Hero's Downfall on instead of Kiora/Nissa
What do you guys think? Personally, I would choose Sultai Ascendancy over Jace; but, I am biased against Jace, so I'm interested in hearing the other side, as well.
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Island
4 Forest
3 Swamp
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants
2 Aetherspouts
3 Bile Blight
4 Dissolve
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Pharika's Cure
Sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
Artifacts
2 Perilous Vault
4 Hornet Nest
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Stain the Mind
Some notes and observations on my own iteration:
1. Some of the removal spells are crappy, mainly because a lot of the good ones are being phased out. I'm predicting I will probably remove the Pharika's Cures or the Bile Blights for the newly-spoiled Sultai Charm. Waiting to see what else is spoiled.
2. I'm almost certainly going to replace some Islands and Swamps with Polluted Deltas.
3. On the subject of lands, I have a lot of basic lands. The Scrylands are obviously good, and Scry helps the deck a ton; but, trying to run too many always winds up going poorly for me. I settled on six.
4. I run pretty low Aetherspouts. I have actually kept up with the BUG Control thread in the Competitive forum, and I know that the consensus is that Aetherspouts is extremely powerful (and I agree). But ultimately, I like having some copies of Perilous Vault in the main board. Partly because of the impact it can have on what an opponent might do when it's put into play, and partly because I think the interaction (or non-interaction, I guess) with Nissa +1 ability and Vault is a very decisive way to close out a game. Also, once you play Aetherspouts, people worry about it being surprised by it from then on. Just having your opponent believe you have an Aetherspouts in your hand can be as good as actually having it.
5. My sideboard almost certainly needs some work. A large part of it is that, when building these wonky post-rotation decks, the only feedback you will get is from playing decks that aren't post-rotation. Thus, some things ultimately might not be as useful in the future (Mistcutter Hydra comes to mind as something that will probably be less relevant once Blue Devo phases out). Hornet Nest is also pretty funny, but I've recently began to wonder if it's all that necessary; the deck already seems to do very well against aggro decks without it, so Hornet Nest might be overkill (and having it competing for the 3-mana slot with Dissolve and Hero's Downfall isn't doing it any favors, either). I have Garruk in the sideboard as well, because even though he is amazing when he works out, it's very frustrating to get him in my opening hand...especially in a deck where I need to have some meaningful early plays to survive. I keep it mainly to board in against walker decks.
6. ...I'm not running Jace. At least, not right now. In a twist of fate, the Sultai mechanic is of course Delve, so perhaps I will put Jace back in my deck in some form in the future. Right now, however, I've been boned too many times by losing a card I needed from Jace's +1. Perhaps I just suck at using TLGPJace.
A lot of the work in dodging a stomp lies in subterfuge (this is relevant to "U/W will get stomped", but it's important for any deck in a FFA):
- Absolutely crush the first attempt to attack you, if possible. If you still have a lot of cards in your hand, it makes people wonder if you can do it again. For that matter, keep cards in your hand - even lands, if necessary. Put on your poker face.
- Make it attractive for people not to attack you by protecting them. Figure out who the next strongest person is - or the person who will grant you the most benefit while alive - and align yourself with them.
- If an interaction you're involved in goes negatively for someone else, make sure you divert the blame to anyone else possible (even very smart people readily accept nearly any reason in this situation as long as they can follow your rationale...however ridiculous it might be).
- You can even make "dodo plays" - intentionally suboptimal/weird/slow plays - at first to try and hide the nature of your strategy; or, if it's obvious what your strategy is, you can make it look like you're unable to fully-implement it. This is effective not only at avoiding a stomp, but there's also a big mind-game element to anyone familiar with FFA strategies; if they gain control of the board first, they may still be wary to attack you, because there's no way to tell if you're doing it on purpose, or if you really don't have plays to make. If two people have roughly even control of the board, diverting their resources to anything but their current arms race is a danger to them; even if one or both suspects you're making a dodo play, leaving themselves open to assault from the other one is likely going to be their more immediate concern.
Basically, FFA magic is like playing Mario Kart - the only time you wanna be in first place is when you're about to cross the finish line. Last place (i.e the players with the weakest board state) fight a huge uphill battle, and the people in first/second place are going to get hit by Blue Turtle Shells (i.e every creature and targeted spell from everybody). So, always try to be in the middle position (i.e it takes some resources an effort to attack/disrupt you, but you're also in a good position to step in and win).
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On a different note, I also think that grabbing an artifact creature every draft is a solid move. Lurking Automaton is basically always good, Canal Dredger is always a useful blocker, and Cogwork Grinder is excellent if people are drafting the same color as you - the earlier you grab it, the better. They ensure that if you aren't working towards a creature-based strategy, you can still have some dangerous creatures on the field. Even if you ARE building a creature-based deck, it can still be a good idea. In the draft where I pulled Reign of the Pit, my sacrifice toward the demon token was an 8/8 Lurking Automaton. Even if your opponents can sacrifice weak creatures, you're in good shape if you can sac a strong one.
I'm still not really convinced that Perilous Vault is bad for this deck. Literally no creature in my main deck is there to attack; they're all there because they can block small creatures, or because I value their static/triggered/activated abilities. Since they are just there for their effects it doesn't matter if they're still there when I wipe the board - everything I wanted to disrupt is gone, and I will have wiped the board on my own terms, i.e wipe the board with a good hand and drop Kiora/Nissa, both of which can protect themselves just fine.
Furthermore, wiping the board with Perilous Vault is really strong in tandem with resolving Kiora or Nissa's ultimates, which are my actual win conditions. Once Kiora's emblem is out, just wipe the board and have fun getting a 9/9 Kraken every turn. If Nissa's ultimate is resolved, pass the turn, activate vault at the end of their turn, and then swing with your lands to win immediately.
The only situation here that's suboptimal for me is if a deck gets rolling so fast that I can't stabilize the board with my creatures, I'll drop the bare minimum and wipe early. It's not the best scenario; but, there's no saying I HAVE to play every creature I draw before wiping the board with Vault.
Anyways. I'm sure your deck is good, but cool ramp decks with U/G have already been made. If I was interested in doing that, I'd probably make that U/G version of Colossal Gruul that I've seen on here, and try to prepare it for the coming rotation. But, that deck has already been made. I want to see if I can make something worthwhile with U/G using a different deck archetype. You're obviously welcome to the opinion that I'm crazy, but I'd prefer if you post suggestions on how I can refine my idea, rather than what you think I should be playing instead.
The first game, which was a "tourney", I guess, I played U/W control, based on Brago, King Eternal. ...Or, I tried, anyways. Here, I actually posted the deck that I drafted for the purposes of analysis:
http://deckstats.net/decks/1659/100179-won-my-conspiracy-draft-tourne/en
I enjoy playing games competitively, but most of my friends do not. As such, we play a lot of Free-For-All, multiplayer MTG. I had a lot of experience in the statecraft that goes into winning a multiplayer game. When I got Brago as my first drafted card, I knew that the best thing I could do was make a deck that was extremely discouraging to fight against.
This had an extra bonus effect that I hadn't really considered - A lot of removal/disruption etc. can be used in a "group hug" sort of way. A few people in my final game (it was three pods of four, and the top 2 from each game went on to a 6-player FFA) had re-usable Parlay effects, so I protected them while they basically ran rampant on the game. Since they were the most aggressive, they got taken out, but they left everyone else in a terrible state. When it was down to me and the final opponent, I had only lost two life, and had probably nine or ten cards in my hand thanks to rampant Parlaying.
Earning a reputation for ruining any attempts at an offense made against you also goes a long way, so long as you don't actually do any fighting. I also am convinced that if you are serious about winning, you're crazy not to splash blue, as having counterspells is the only way to dodge getting insta-gibbed by a huge Deathforge Shaman kick. (I actually did survive this exact situation in my game, but only because I showed the guy that I had Rout, and promised that I would use it in response and that he would die. Would he have? I dunno, but he only had four life left, so probably. Did he make the right choice? Nah, probably not. lol)
But, essentially, my plan worked out really well; I got Soulbinders, Brago, and Rout in my hand. I got my Minamo Scrollkeeper out, and a bunch of other deterrents. Once it was down to the me and the last player, I cast Rout on his turn, and with a ton of cards in my hand, I set to work getting out all my creatures ASAP, and tore in with an 8/8 Soulbinders that I could use Brago to flicker over and over again. I think I had fourteen 1/1 fliers by the time I won.
Finally, as card advantage is a huge part of the U/W strategy, Iterative Analysis is __extremely_ good as a conspiracy, as well as any nonsense that lets you draw cards (i.e Runed Servitor).
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The second game I played was a much more casual game between just me and three other friends. I tried to make a deck that would win, cos that's how I always have fun, and I wound up going with B/W control (the first thing I drew was Reign of the Pit. I tried to make it mono-black, but I wound up splashing white just because I love having vote control (which was extremely helpful in my U/W deck, as well), and between Brago's Representative and Grudge Keeper, you can have your cake and eat it, too. This wound up being a great idea, because I also pulled Magister of Worth - how's that for good fortune?
The thing that's tough about black in any multiplayer game is that it's very powerful in multiplayer. Even a lot of cards outside of conspiracy that are black hit each opponent. Ever played in a multiplayer game with Blind Obedience? Or any extort, for that matter? It's an easy way to get people to kill you. In conspiracy, obviously, it's no different. The trick is to only play something like that if you can somehow rationalize it to the rest of the group...no matter how ridiculous it is. For example, I responded to an innocuous attack against me early game with a Smallpox. Two people wound up getting mana-screwed, but I managed to shift the blame onto the person who attacked me, so I was relatively safe.
I made this deck around flying deterrents, as well. Custodi Squire absolutely rules you. It's not only strong in draft, but being able to use them to return cards to your hand is amazing, especially later in the game when you can reasonably have the mana to cast Squire AND the card you returned to your hand. Also, using a Squire to return a Squire to your hand is a good way to make Custodi Squire into a faux-indestructible creature.
Nonetheless, I did lose. Because of my interest in not eliminating people quickly (since it was all friends and no prize on the line), I left a friend alive who made a G/R deck that abused Vent Sentinel. So, of course, he went kingmaker on me and tapped two Sentinels to deal six damage to me, then attacked me with Copperhorn Scout so he could untap and deal six MORE damage to me! So, I lost, but I basically had control of that game the whole game. Removal and fliers is surprisingly resilient.
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I'm convinced that U/W is the best way to go if you're playing the long game in Conspiracy. Black is fun, and if you can reasonably make an Esper Control deck, then go for it; but, I think that's usually going to be too difficult. U/W in tandem has the most deterrence, which is perhaps better in multiplayer than flat-out removal; if you kill a creature, people want to retaliate. If you just make it hard to attack you, they consider it reasonable and leave you alone. Green has a lot of powerful creatures, but since there's a plethora of strong artifact creatures, I don't think it's necessary to draft a color for creature base. All colors have good low-CMC creatures (although U/W is the strongest in that regard too, imo). I don't think it's impossible to win without U/W, but I think it's much harder. Green, Red, and Black make enemies (although Red is surprisingly better in Conspiracy than I would have guessed), while Blue and White really don't.
Current thoughts:
- Maybe I have too many counterspells in the main deck? Maybe moving down to six or five would be good.
- Aetherspouts is really awesome...but maybe I should sideboard it? I'm still not sure just yet, because no one in my area really plays aggro. Hitting only one creature with Aetherspouts isn't exactly the worst thing ever...but, at that point, why not just Curse it? I'll try and play more before making this decision.
Some things I'm thinking about:
1. I wonder if Reclamation Sage would be better than Unravel the Aether? I like Unravel the Aether because it allows me to deal with a God that I wasn't able to counter...but at the same time, Reclamation Sage does give me removal and a body to block with. Having more creatures in the sideboard also means I could technically put Polymorphist's Jest back in the deck without it being a poor choice.
2. I wonder what the best creature counters are going to be, post-rotation? I'd only noticed today that Essence Scatter is out. I've put in Nullify for now...
3. I really love Swan Song, and want to put it in this deck; but, I can't help but wonder if it's a trap of a card. It might be better in a deck that can handle more creatures; but while a 1 CMC counterspell sounds nice, I'm thinking that giving more creatures to my opponent - at least in this case - may not be a wise decision.
4. The more I toy with this deck, the more I've decided that I really, really like Prophet of Kruphix in it. I'm debating whether I should get a third one in exchange for a Perilous Vault...or, if I should keep it at two, and even just move my Vault count down to two? Three sounds nice if I have an emergency, but at the same time, it can become a reliability if I get it without needing it.
Thanks so far for the advice. I'm still interested in hearing what you guys have to say.
Hmm. My logic for using Perilous Vault was to intentionally wipe the board after resolving either Planeswalker ultimate; but it's true that if I need to wipe any time before that, it's not very good for me. I think I will still keep some in the main deck, but not four. I'm more than happy to put Aetherspouts into the main deck, but do you think it's necessary to run Polymorphist's Jest AND Aetherspouts? Having both seems excessive, but I could also be full of it.
And yeah...I realize NOW that Bow of Nylea doesn't help me like I thought it would. I'll be removing those for sure. I really want to like that card, lol...but it never does quite what I need it to for any green deck I conceptualize.
It's true that Dakra does give them cards, but you can deny them the important stuff...moreso if you actually know whether you want the next card in your deck. I intend to play with that idea extensively before I make the decision to remove it.
Fliers may not be as large of a problem as I originally thought, if I'm running Polymorphist's Jest, and especially Aetherspouts. And, yeah, I could always counter them.
I do like the idea of Essence Scatter in the main deck, except for if I fight another control deck. Still, against basically any other type of deck, it might be preferable to seven 3CMC counterspells. I think I'll probably make that change.
Actually, I meant to put Sylvan Caryatid under the list of cards I considered for this deck; but, I guess I forgot, cos I was really tired when I wrote it. I agree that the ramp is excellent, but as LordGrimpow suggested, I wonder if Voyaging Satyr might be better for this deck? It can actually kill stuff when I use Polymorphist's Jest, it can untap any land, and being able to untap lands in general has some synergy with Nissa's ability to make land creatures. My only concern about Voyaging Satyr if that if he has to block against an aggro deck and I don't have Polymorphist's Jest, he's almost certainly going to die.
I have to go to work, but I'll think about what you guys have said. I appreciate the advice!
I'm trying to get back into Magic, and I'm also trying to start playing seriously. I've done well in some local tournaments with premade decks I've seen online, but I still like to make my own decks to improve my skills in assessing the worth of cards. When I make my own stuff, I usually try to make U/G decks, since they're my favorite colors. I thought I'd try and make Control decks, since I lack experience playing them, and it also seemed like a good challenge to make a Control deck without White. However, I did look at U/W Control decks as a jumping off point.
I had two rules making the deck:
1. U/G only. I'm not ready to try and make three-color decks yet, and I'm also just partial to U/G.
2. No cards that will be phased out this fall, i.e nothing from Magic 2014 or the RTR block.
(also, a third caveat: I'm interested in trying to make U/G Control work. I know there's plenty of great U/G Decks out there, but I'm trying to challenge myself to make a functional deck of this specific type, with these specific colors. Please don't post completely different types of decks.)
Bear in mind, I'm still quite the novice, so I'm absolutely open to suggestions and criticisms. What follows is the decklist, as well as my rationale for all my choices.
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Temple of Mystery
10 Island
9 Forest
Creatures
4 Dakra Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Prophet of Kruphix
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instants
4 Dissolve
3 Aetherspouts
3 Dissipate
Artifacts
3 Perilous Vault
4 Nylea's Disciple
4 Nullify
3 Gainsay
2 Curse of the Swine
2 Phyrexian Revoker
V.2 Changes:
-2 Unravel the Aether, +2 Curse of the Swine. Yeah, I can't use it to deal with enchantments on the board, but I find that creatures give me a harder time. This is a great way to handle God cards, as well as huge doomlord beaters, like Desecration Demon and Blood Baron. ...A lot of people play Black Devo in my area.
V.2 Changes:
1. -1 Perilous Vault, -3 Bow of Nylea, +4 Sylvan Caryatid. Having access to a larger mana pool, as well as a good blocker against aggro decks, was important to me. I removed Bow of Nylea for this, because I had read the card improperly in the first place and had it in the deck for a purpose it couldn't fulfill. I also removed one Perilous Vault, because while I still think it's useful in this deck, I really don't need one in my opening hand. I might get rid of a second one in the future.
2. -3 Polymorphist's Jest, +3 Aetherspouts. I like Polymorphist's Jest better in general, but I don't really have the creature base to take advantage of turning all my opponent's creatures into 1/1s. Jest sounds like a better trick for a blue aggro deck.
3. Completely redid sideboard. Almost everything about the old sideboard has changed, because not a lot of thought was originally put into it in the first place. Hopefully, this sideboard seems a little more well put-together.
Card Explanations:
Eight dual-lands seemed good, and naturally, the scry lands would have to go in there, as well. I could have added more scry lands, but I also thought more basic lands would be a good choice with Nissa in my deck. I would have really liked to have ten forests for that reason... but, I really wanted a third Bow of Nylea, and there's too much blue in this deck to have nine islands instead.
Dakra Mystic and Courser of Kruphix are here to speed up my deck. If I get a Dakra Mystic in my opening hand and don't get much else that I need, I can use it to draw into some plays as quickly as possible. Courser of Kruphix is great for basically everything; speeding up my deck, as well as buying time and being a good blocker against aggro. But, I also think that Dakra + Courser make a good combo; since I know what card I will draw into, if I don't like the card on the top of my library, I can just mill my opponent while speeding through my deck. Also, if I don't have a land on top of my deck at the start of my turn, I can use Dakra to move through my deck and find one, if I think it's necessary.
Prophet of Kruphix is just there to make sure I can make big plays while being ready to play reactive spells on my opponent's turn. This is one of the cards I'm most ambivalent about currently, as I'm not sure I can really take advantage of it as well as other decklists with more instants and creatures might.
In the second version of my deck, I've added Sylvan Caryatid. This gives me mana accel, a good blocker against aggro decks, a way to gain life with Courser of Kruphix the same turn it comes out, and it gives me some green devotion, which is now relevant because I've put Nylea's Disciple in my sideboard.
These are basically my win cons. If I can cast with Kiora's or Nissa's ultimates, I'm in great shape. Resolving either one would allow me to freely wipe the board with Perilous Vault, as I will either start accumulating 9/9 Krakens on an empty board, or I can swing with an army of 4/4 Lands and immediately win, since Vault won't destroy the land-creatures. Either one also protects me decently well against different types of decks.
Basic stuff. Counterspells are counterspells, and I tried to pick the best general-purpose ones for the main deck. Aetherspouts will really ruin an opponent who doesn't attack carefully, and it gives me a second chance to counter any big threat they put back on the top of their deck.
Perilous Vault is an obvious choice. It's a good sweeper that can be used in U/G, it can be done at instant-speed (when I have it in play, of course), and it works especially well with both my Planeswalkers. I think I would be crazy not to add this. In the second version of this deck, I removed one, because it's not a play that I intend to make early; I have it solely for big emergencies, or to sweep the board after resolving either Planeswalker ultimate. Naturally, not something I really want in my opening hand.
- With deck real-estate at a premium, I was looking for a single card which would really bolster my chances against aggro, and I found Nylea's Disciple. The lifegain, combined with the a P/T of 3, will help me stall for a while longer until I can stabilize the board. In a best-case scenario, I can gain put this in play on turn 4 and have gained six life between Disciple and Courser.
- Nullify is aimed at aggro decks, which I think will probably be my biggest weakness. Gainsay is obviously good against anything with blue (and especially good if Blue Devo Aggro manages to be good after rotation).
- Phyrexian Revoker is the new Pithing Needle...but, since it's more susceptible to removal and disruption, I thought it would be wise to have at least two, just in case.
- Unravel the Aether, I felt, would be the best substitute for something like Deicide. I considered Fade Into Antiquity for this reason as well, but I decided that the lower CMC, the better. I thought even harder about Reclamation Sage, as having it around to chump block would help me against aggro; however, it leaves me with no way to handle a God card after it resolves, and I don't think I have to worry too much about Artifacts in aggro. Maybe that will change if M15 and Khans really does allow for Artifact-based aggro decks. I'll wait and see.
7. Cards I've thought about putting in the deck
I can't find a place for these cards in my deck, but I know they are useful. I'm interested in seeing what other people think about these.
Polukranos, World Eater sounded like a brilliant card until I realized that I read its monstrous ability wrong. I don't think that I would be able to use its Monstrosity ability to effectively deal with creatures in a timely manner, and I have Perilous Vault for that, anyways. I don't think I need any separate wincons besides Kiora and Nissa, either.
Kruphix, God of Horizons is also another card I love; but, I think that strategies based around Kruphix run so contrary to Kiora. Kiora needs to be protected so she can make huge creatures for me. Kruphix demands that I take up real-estate in my deck for huge, crazy cards like Tromokratis or Colossus of Akros. That doesn't sound bad, but it's definitely not the strategy I'm running for this deck. Besides that, with Prophet of Kruphix, I constantly have blue mana at my disposal, which seems more useful to me.
Anyways, any feedback is appreciated! This decklist may, of course, change as Khans of Tarkir is spoiled. It might wind up being completely terrible (if it somehow already isn't). But, if this winds up being worth making, the idea here is to have something I can play as soon as Khans goes live. Thanks for reading!