@NavyJoe, Why are you running Lightning Bolt over Galvanic Blast? I'm just curious.
I've played Affinity since it was in standard, probably like most people that have posted in this thread. I can completely understand dropping DotV, but every time I think about it, I can't help but think of the number of games he has won just by being an amazing top deck.
The one shining argument is that DotV is about as useful as t*ts on a bull without a Ravager. Maybe it is time to retire the one drop.
If it has been mediocre in testing, it most likely continue to be mediocre with scepter-if not worse.
There was a reason scepter wasn't played in affinity when it was standard legal, it does not belong in this deck. It is a terrible top deck and I cannot image it even getting anything imprinted on it with any consistency.
If you are going to spend that type of mana investment in this deck, you want to win either that turn or the very next. Even imprinting Burn on it, chances are that you are going to win in your next attack step regardless.
That was actually the point I was trying to express, people have tested it and have come to the conclusion that for the hyper aggressive build it doesn't fit MB, SB yeah it is a pretty good option.
Sorry if I came across as sarcastic, it wasn't meant that way, it was just ground already covered and a citation as too were you could find the information.
That's exactly what I put into MWS after scars but with -2 myr enforcer +2 etched champion. I haven't done any testing with it, it just seemed logical to me.
Please, go back and read pages 50-59 regarding etched champion, that should save time in explaining again how slow it is.
It however would be far from useless in narah's aggro/control build, in fact it would probaby be pretty decent.
I'll tap two black and change plate targets in the mirror >.<
If he is that much of a problem for all those decks you listed and in those scenarios, they are just going to use removal on him. It is a reactive solution that, while cute is just not necessary with Galvanic Blast available.
Too reliably be able Affinity, you need 46+/60 artifacts. 14- slots doesn't leave much room to fit much of anything, when we already have Thougthcast, Galvanic Blast, and Disciple as auto includes.
Since I posted my edit and you posted at the same time I'll repost this as it furthers an argument for Blast. >.<
With further consideration, I can see how a disruption could be a very powerful play on turn one.
In the goldfishing I was doing for Champion, I had one mana open with Drum or Opal all the time, it would have been nice to have disruption in that situation. After I took Champ out it was the same story.
However, I think Thoughtseize is a far more potent card on the play than it is on the draw. It loses a lot of potency on the draw, as you are already behind.
Cabal Therapy is going to get you further along in a disruption/affinity shell in the long run. It is a far stronger play on the draw, along with having a very easy to pay for flashback cost.
I'll concede readily that Cabal Therapy is also far more potent in a meta that you have some familiarity with, going blindly to a larger scale tournament Thoughtseize is going to most likely be better.
I'm not convinced that Galvanic Blast should not be played in Affinity though. It is a very powerful tool for this deck, four damage is nothing to sneeze at, that extra point over Lightning Boltis significant. Don't disregard it so quickly. It is can hit bigger Knights, Goyfs, and Warmonks. Slow down Merfolk Lord growth. Stop Mongrel/Vine shenanigans, and hit every creature in Zoo. Along with being those last points of damage too finish your opponent off.
You could try using both I suppose, it would take the deck into a more mid-range direction though. It would add a lot of resiliency to the deck, which you have to admit-despite how much I love Affinity-in the hyper aggressive builds it tends to lack.
Really the argument is coming down to reactive solutions versus proactive solutions. Which ultimately might have to be a meta and personal choice and not an ideal that can be achieved.
Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy are both very solid proactive solutions to the problems that hamper our game plan, remove that removal or counter before they can use them.
Galvanic Blast is a reactive card that acts as either they last few points of damage or the sometimes very necessary removal to push lethal damage through.
All three cards have very solid appeal for this deck, I can see the legitimacy for any of the inclusions in affinity. I think it is going to come down to your meta though, is there more combo and control? Play Seize or Therapy. More aggro? play Blast.
Personally I think Cabal Therapy is more viable than Thoughtseize, although I love Thoughtseize, it is a brilliant card in and of itself. Just the ability to reuse Therapy I think is going to make it a better card than Thoughtseize, your argument that it is unplayable turn one on the play against an unknown opponent is entirely valid. However, if you look at the overall density of the played cards in Legacy, naming either Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm or Daze is going to give you pretty decent odds at nailing one of those, and if you whiff, well you know exactly what to call out next turn, and you know what you are playing against and how to play around and how to bait.
It's not that funny really, Champ is great on paper. In RL it is marginal at best. Slide him into a MD list and goldfish a hundred or so games, I almost always wished it was something else.
It was goldfishing granted and in actual play it might be better, but Champion just strikes me as a win-more but a turn slower card, its not explosive like the rest of the deck, its slow, it doesn't impact the board anymore than a frogmite really, sure it can chump block all day, it can even attack unimpeded, but I can drop that frogmite for free, not paying 3 mana for it (or two on turn 1 maybe?).
If you are spending 3 mana in affinity, it should be for something that will pretty much end the game next turn. Like Master or Plate, Champ doesn't do that, it sets up a kill, it isn't one.
Sideboard? Oh most definitely, the question is how many.
Remember when Magic used to be fun? Now people win by not allowing you to even play. That isn't fun.
You're making it sound like Control just appeared on the block, if you remember the first real deck was The Deck, which was a Control deck. It's not like Control is new, and as several posters before me have indicated, Control is a very much winnable match if you understand how to play against it, or even if the control player is not skilled. It takes a great deal of patience, practice, and time to effectively play a Control deck.
I wish I could play magical christmas land magic where I can always counter or answer every threat 1>1 while still making all of my land drops and never getting put on the defensive or tapping out for wrath or jace or baneslayer. I'd win a bloody pro tour.
Seriously, everyone saying that control counters everything always and always plays a threat with tons of open mana is playing in some fantasy world. Sometimes you run out jace to draw cards. Sometimes you tap out for baneslayer and ask if they can deal. And sometimes, amazingly enough, you don't draw all your mana leaks
This sums it up pretty clearly, just because a Control player has playedthe correct spell, at the correct time, to wrestle control away from you, does NOT mean that he/she is going to have that answer every time. Smart play, without over-extending, is going to answer Control more often than not. Who cares if they DoJ, guess what! that is one less sweeper you have to worry about.
No Control deck is realistically going to run more than 10 counters, and most will not even run close to that because it will only serve to dilute their own game plan, 6~8 is far more likely. You're saying that because 6~8 cards, in their entire deck, are going stop you from playing the spell that you are currently trying to play, completely eliminates the fun of playing magic? 10-13.3% of their deck (usually), scares you? That is like saying, "I'm not going to call the Big Blind with these pocket 8's because I have a 22% chance to lose by the river." You still have a 78% chance to win! >.<
Don't let 10-13% of the total cards in a deck discourage you from playing. Card for card you still have 86.7-90% of your deck that they CANNOT counter. To me those odds are pretty good. (Yes, I am well aware of land, blah blah blah, I'm summing it up quickly and yes the number will change because of land in the deck, the reasoning is still sound regardless).
Yes, maybe the Dragons cost mana as well, but so does every other finisher.
But, unlike Windreaver, the Dragons reward you with that down payment - the death clause. If the Dragons die, you still receive insurance payments - gaining a creature or denying an untap step.
Windreaver just sits there and hopes it never dies, because if it does, you just lost a very large portion of your financial portfolio. Dragons give you all the benefits of a 5/5 flier but they also diversify your investments (if it just has to die) without costing you too much.
Meloku is great because his ability can go off in response.
Any other big flier, like Windreaver, is just a big flier demanding counterspell protection every turn. And at least they actually have a body. Windreaver is a 1/3 unless you put more mana into him. Can you really afford that?
I think Windreaver as designed for this new kind of W/U control - Skies control, the one that the Azorius guild is apparently about. Stall the game (not just with control) and use a more aggro-control strategy with plenty of fliers to win the game. Windreaver seals the package of a game in your favour. If Windreaver is killed (which is less likely since other creatures have drawn removal fire before his appearance), it's just another death. It's not your one big finisher like in a control deck.
No, I'm keeping my Yoseis and Keigas in my U/W control build, tyvm.
Hey.. has anyone noticed the synergy between an Adarkar Valkyrie and a Kamigawa Dragon? It's wishful thinking, but you could even get proactive and play the double into the legend rule.
Since when do you have to keep counter mana open for Windreaver? That little ability, : Return ~this~ to owner's hand trumps having to hold counters to protect it.
Yosei, gives you one turn to do something. That's about it.
Keiga, given the fact that the only way for you to remove it for the ability is wrath of god, which kinda just makes the ability worthless. Your opponent isn't going to give you a decent creature to steal with Keiga. Period.
Windreaver's abilites don't cost that much mana. it costs 4 mana to swing for 6 a turn. That's not a lot of mana. You can realistically play him turn 8, still having mana open a counter and bouncing him.
EDIT: Unfortunately, for my knowledge on Windreaver, I have no experience with Azorius Guildmage.
What, exactly, makes Azorius Guildmage one of the breakthrough cards of late? I see an overcosted tap ability, and a once-unique counter ability which has been replaced by that of Rimewind Cryomancer. I want to run her for the Blue ability, but it costs too much...
That overcosted tap down ability can single handedly wreck aggro and control decks (as she has done for me many many times). She can also swing in for 2 a turn with that overcosted tap ability. She gives u something to do with a lot of left over mana at EOT. That's just the tapping ability. Firemane Angel will never come out of the GY with her in play. Jitte will never be equipped with her in play. Miren gets shut down preventing those tricks. She trades with Solifuge. She draws removal.
AZGM is kinda like a prostitute, sink enough into her and she'll give everything you could ever dream.
I don't think it matters one bit if we did it intentionally or not.
As far as I'm concerned he knew exactly what he was doing, and had prolly been doing it all day long. If not all career long.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we find out that a lot of pros are cheating in the same or similiar ways.
I think to discourage further cheating they should make an example of him by permanently banning him from the PT.
Look at this way, we already know the pros are great hands down. They shouldn't need to cheat. If they're cheating to win we have to start questioning how legitimate all the wins have been.
It's really a catch 22 I guess. I don't abide cheating though. It is one of the worst forms of dishonesty there is.
I've played Affinity since it was in standard, probably like most people that have posted in this thread. I can completely understand dropping DotV, but every time I think about it, I can't help but think of the number of games he has won just by being an amazing top deck.
The one shining argument is that DotV is about as useful as t*ts on a bull without a Ravager. Maybe it is time to retire the one drop.
There was a reason scepter wasn't played in affinity when it was standard legal, it does not belong in this deck. It is a terrible top deck and I cannot image it even getting anything imprinted on it with any consistency.
If you are going to spend that type of mana investment in this deck, you want to win either that turn or the very next. Even imprinting Burn on it, chances are that you are going to win in your next attack step regardless.
Sorry if I came across as sarcastic, it wasn't meant that way, it was just ground already covered and a citation as too were you could find the information.
Please, go back and read pages 50-59 regarding etched champion, that should save time in explaining again how slow it is.
It however would be far from useless in narah's aggro/control build, in fact it would probaby be pretty decent.
If he is that much of a problem for all those decks you listed and in those scenarios, they are just going to use removal on him. It is a reactive solution that, while cute is just not necessary with Galvanic Blast available.
Too reliably be able Affinity, you need 46+/60 artifacts. 14- slots doesn't leave much room to fit much of anything, when we already have Thougthcast, Galvanic Blast, and Disciple as auto includes.
With further consideration, I can see how a disruption could be a very powerful play on turn one.
In the goldfishing I was doing for Champion, I had one mana open with Drum or Opal all the time, it would have been nice to have disruption in that situation. After I took Champ out it was the same story.
However, I think Thoughtseize is a far more potent card on the play than it is on the draw. It loses a lot of potency on the draw, as you are already behind.
Cabal Therapy is going to get you further along in a disruption/affinity shell in the long run. It is a far stronger play on the draw, along with having a very easy to pay for flashback cost.
I'll concede readily that Cabal Therapy is also far more potent in a meta that you have some familiarity with, going blindly to a larger scale tournament Thoughtseize is going to most likely be better.
I'm not convinced that Galvanic Blast should not be played in Affinity though. It is a very powerful tool for this deck, four damage is nothing to sneeze at, that extra point over Lightning Bolt is significant. Don't disregard it so quickly. It is can hit bigger Knights, Goyfs, and Warmonks. Slow down Merfolk Lord growth. Stop Mongrel/Vine shenanigans, and hit every creature in Zoo. Along with being those last points of damage too finish your opponent off.
You could try using both I suppose, it would take the deck into a more mid-range direction though. It would add a lot of resiliency to the deck, which you have to admit-despite how much I love Affinity-in the hyper aggressive builds it tends to lack.
Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy are both very solid proactive solutions to the problems that hamper our game plan, remove that removal or counter before they can use them.
Galvanic Blast is a reactive card that acts as either they last few points of damage or the sometimes very necessary removal to push lethal damage through.
All three cards have very solid appeal for this deck, I can see the legitimacy for any of the inclusions in affinity. I think it is going to come down to your meta though, is there more combo and control? Play Seize or Therapy. More aggro? play Blast.
Personally I think Cabal Therapy is more viable than Thoughtseize, although I love Thoughtseize, it is a brilliant card in and of itself. Just the ability to reuse Therapy I think is going to make it a better card than Thoughtseize, your argument that it is unplayable turn one on the play against an unknown opponent is entirely valid. However, if you look at the overall density of the played cards in Legacy, naming either Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm or Daze is going to give you pretty decent odds at nailing one of those, and if you whiff, well you know exactly what to call out next turn, and you know what you are playing against and how to play around and how to bait.
It was goldfishing granted and in actual play it might be better, but Champion just strikes me as a win-more but a turn slower card, its not explosive like the rest of the deck, its slow, it doesn't impact the board anymore than a frogmite really, sure it can chump block all day, it can even attack unimpeded, but I can drop that frogmite for free, not paying 3 mana for it (or two on turn 1 maybe?).
If you are spending 3 mana in affinity, it should be for something that will pretty much end the game next turn. Like Master or Plate, Champ doesn't do that, it sets up a kill, it isn't one.
Sideboard? Oh most definitely, the question is how many.
You're making it sound like Control just appeared on the block, if you remember the first real deck was The Deck, which was a Control deck. It's not like Control is new, and as several posters before me have indicated, Control is a very much winnable match if you understand how to play against it, or even if the control player is not skilled. It takes a great deal of patience, practice, and time to effectively play a Control deck.
This sums it up pretty clearly, just because a Control player has played the correct spell, at the correct time, to wrestle control away from you, does NOT mean that he/she is going to have that answer every time. Smart play, without over-extending, is going to answer Control more often than not. Who cares if they DoJ, guess what! that is one less sweeper you have to worry about.
No Control deck is realistically going to run more than 10 counters, and most will not even run close to that because it will only serve to dilute their own game plan, 6~8 is far more likely. You're saying that because 6~8 cards, in their entire deck, are going stop you from playing the spell that you are currently trying to play, completely eliminates the fun of playing magic? 10-13.3% of their deck (usually), scares you? That is like saying, "I'm not going to call the Big Blind with these pocket 8's because I have a 22% chance to lose by the river." You still have a 78% chance to win! >.<
Don't let 10-13% of the total cards in a deck discourage you from playing. Card for card you still have 86.7-90% of your deck that they CANNOT counter. To me those odds are pretty good. (Yes, I am well aware of land, blah blah blah, I'm summing it up quickly and yes the number will change because of land in the deck, the reasoning is still sound regardless).
Well crafted deck and well written primer. I look forward to watching this go off over and over, while learning to play it.
Good name too, the SI was one of those things in history that you just look at and go wtf just happened
This card is mediocre, i doubt itll see in play in standard. and prolly a long shot in extended.
I do like the card though, casual madness would love this though. It fits perfect in the old Frog in a blender builds
These cards aren't broken by any means however, they can seriously get out of hand.
Combo will be coming back in force given the fact that these uber-powerful/slow suspend cards can really setup for broken turns.
With Paradox Haze and Clockspinning being a center pieces it looks like some really really powerful decks can be built.
I'm starting to get excited.
::cough cough:: Seething Song ::cough cough::
Since when do you have to keep counter mana open for Windreaver? That little ability,
Yosei, gives you one turn to do something. That's about it.
Keiga, given the fact that the only way for you to remove it for the ability is wrath of god, which kinda just makes the ability worthless. Your opponent isn't going to give you a decent creature to steal with Keiga. Period.
Windreaver's abilites don't cost that much mana. it costs 4 mana to swing for 6 a turn. That's not a lot of mana. You can realistically play him turn 8, still having mana open a counter and bouncing him.
That overcosted tap down ability can single handedly wreck aggro and control decks (as she has done for me many many times). She can also swing in for 2 a turn with that overcosted tap ability. She gives u something to do with a lot of left over mana at EOT. That's just the tapping ability. Firemane Angel will never come out of the GY with her in play. Jitte will never be equipped with her in play. Miren gets shut down preventing those tricks. She trades with Solifuge. She draws removal.
AZGM is kinda like a prostitute, sink enough into her and she'll give everything you could ever dream.
As far as I'm concerned he knew exactly what he was doing, and had prolly been doing it all day long. If not all career long.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we find out that a lot of pros are cheating in the same or similiar ways.
I think to discourage further cheating they should make an example of him by permanently banning him from the PT.
Look at this way, we already know the pros are great hands down. They shouldn't need to cheat. If they're cheating to win we have to start questioning how legitimate all the wins have been.
It's really a catch 22 I guess. I don't abide cheating though. It is one of the worst forms of dishonesty there is.