With Magus of the moon in play, I play a Stomping ground. Does it come into play tapped? If so, can the two life be paid to keep it from untapping? Also, is it considered to be a forest for Kird ape?
As my upkeep begins, I have a Battle of Wits in play and the delayed trigger from a Pact of Negation I played the previous turn. (Assuming I have at least 200 cards in my library,) what happens?
I'd suggest adding another win condition besides just the rack, what about urza's factory instead of the mines? that way you don't have to reduce the amount of discard you're running, but instead of the mines which are only good early on you get lands that win the game once you have control.
Elves of Paradise G
creature - elf
tap: add one mana of any color to your mana pool
0/1
Seems simple to me ... pretty much strictly worse that BoP, but still does the job. Doesn't break the "flavor" rule with flying.
A replacement for birds doesn't need to be "as good as" birds, it doesn't need an additional ability (ie. flying) just so it can be as powerful as birds, it just needs to tap for rainbow mana, and cost green, with the only drawback being the p/t (0/1).
It could have defender I suppose, but I think it would look too much like utopia tree if it did, so it probably won't.
Problem is, testing it on MWS isn't going to give you a very accurate idea of how good the deck actually is.
Dedicated LD is rarely good in any format (although there are exceptions, take for instance Vore decks from standard not too long ago). Usually LD or mana denial in general is part of a bigger plan to distrupt your opponent's ability to win. That's why you see sinkhole, vindicate, and a wasteland/crucible lock in most BW control decks in legacy, because they work well in combination with cards like hymn to touroch and duress, not to mention dark ritual to distrupt your opponent.
In legacy in particular, a dedicated LD deck runs into many problems: the most blindingly obvious being decks which win without lands, or only need to use them once. Many of the non-high tide combo decks will easily combo out without being able to use their lands more than once, especially given how slow your clock is (and yes, a turn four 6/6 is a slow clock in this format). Then look at some of the other major decks in the format: goblins only needs to get a aether vial out to pretty much nullify your entire strategy, and they typically run a large number (up to eight, really) of fetchlands which can sit there waiting until they need the mana. Destroying them requires two LD spells a piece. Thresh can run even more fetches than goblins, and they have counterspells they can use even while they're tapped out (note that daze is a hard counter vs. an LD spell) or have no lands to off your win condition. Their 1-drop and 2-drop (nimble mongoose and werebear, respectively) will also grow very large very quick if you are successful in destroying their lands, and you have no good way to handle them. Finally there's solidarity, which I'll be the first to say you should have a very good matchup against. Solidarity has a very hard time going off without at least four lands on the table, and if you can start throwing LD spells on turn two then you should be able to overrun their counterspells.
Unfortunately, I don't think that beating solidarity soundly is a good reason to have so many other bad matchups against major decks in the format. LD as a dedicated strategy just isn't viable in legacy today.
(and before you complain about me not testing your particular decklist, I will attest that I have tested LD on MWS and have gotten the same results you have with a different conclusion: I win 80% of the time not because the LD deck is any good, but because I am a good player and quite frankly many of the legacy players on MWS are not.)
(and before anyone complains about me saying that many legacy players on MWS aren't that good, uh ... try playing a few games on MWS and see how many people have to read what force of will does, or how many people don't block your turn one lackey with their turn one mongoose. sure lots of people are fine players, but there are still an awful lot of bad ones)
A deck that does very well in a legacy metagame will not necessarily do well at all in the current extended one. For instance, Solidarity is generally considered to be one of the top three decks in legacy, certainly a teir one deck, but has a hard time in the current extended metagame which is full of maindecked stifles, orim's chants, and trinispheres.
If you have found a deck that will tear up the legacy metagame (which I doubt you have, a single FNM isn't much to go on) then you should be developing it to play in that metagame.
That being said, the deck idea which you are discussing is a rather well-developed idea, a U/B control deck utilyzing sensei's divining top and counterbalance along with a pretty standard suite of other counterspells and removal, with psychatog for the win. You should be able to find a thread detailing this archetype here on the forums, and if you go to starcitygames.com you can look at the decklists for this archetype which have done well at PTQs, all of the top8 decklists are up over there and this archetype has posted some top8s this season I believe.
As for vedalken shackles and spell snare? I personally love them both I think spell snare is very much underplayed, but that's just me.
mmm problem with that thought is that ghost quarter's searching ability is a "may" ability, meaning that they could choose to just not search their library ... so that won't work.
It's too bad peek isn't in the format ... splashing black for duress or running that new blue discard spell (the [mana]UX[/card] one, not piracy charm) would be very helpful so you can see what they have in their hand to begin with. For instance, if their hand is land light and they can't play anything or at least anything dangersous with the mana in their hand then you may be better off forcing them to draw expensive spells and no mana rather than lands when they could conceivably play the spells in their hand.
Background: I lost to a U/W control deck on MWS that played stuffy doll and guilty conscience as a kill condition. I didn't see his decklist and I haven't found it online, but I built the deck from scratch and have tested it quite a bit. It's very competetive so I'm posting it looking for some feedback.
The deck is a tempo-based control deck that combos out for a win, running a full complement of remands, memory lapses, and repeals alonside good old counterspell and wrath of god. Along with it's cantrips it also runs thirst for knowledge and fact or fiction for card draw, usually for the late game to dig for combo pieces. It normally wins with stuffy doll and guilty conscience, as early as turn five but much more often on turn ten or so. It can win with just stuffy doll, preferably two of them, and it can also get a recurring mindslaver lock in the late game.
MANA
The build I have seems pretty solid, having UU available on turn two isn't too important, but having UUU1 or WW2 on turn four is, this build allows it. The artifact lands are for Thirst for Knowledge, four seems to be a good number, but one or two ancient dens might be even better.
Academy ruins allows for mindslaver to be recurred in the late game, once you have 13 mana available, and it also gets back stuffy dolls if you discarded one to thirst for knowledge or fact or fiction and are ready to combo out. If you draw a second one you can discard it to thirst for knowledge, but that's rarely a problem. Because of all the cantrips and card-drawing you rarely have any mana issues, excepting a fact or fiction flipping over five mana sources which is always bad.
Note: do not play a signet on turn two, and it is ok to take damage from a turn two hallowed fountain to threaten a counterspell. On turn three you play the signet and hold open remand/memory lapse mana, or on turn three you play two signets if you have a wrath or a very strong hand that can recover (ie. if you have the combo in hand already).
CONTROL ELEMENTS
The deck is based on surviving long enough to find the combo, it is not trying to combo out on turn five/six every game, although it is possible with a lucky starting hand. Usually you're happy to combo out by turn ten or so, meaning you need to be able to stall. Remand, Memory Lapse, and Repeal allow you to do that. In the first 3-6 turns or so each of these cards are effectively a time walk if they stop the only spell your opponent was going to play that turn. Wrath is a huge source of card advantage, and usually cast on turn five. Here's a fairly standard opening:
T1 land
T2 land, repeal/remand/memory lapse
T3 land, signet, repeal/remand/memory lapse
T4 land, let them resolve 2-4 threats, EOT Thirst for Knowlege/Fact or Fiction
T5 land, wrath, counterspell
If your opponent isn't playing an aggro-ish deck, then your opening turns will probably consist of nothing but lands and signets as you both set up your hands, but your hand should be far superior once you start playing spells because of the high counterspell density.
Notes: -use remand early, memory lapse is a much better late-game card
- don't be afraid to repeal something unimportant to draw a card late game
- if you don't need wrath, discard it to thirst
- remember you win the late game, you're stalling!
CARD DRAW
remand and repeal cantrip, but your big draw spells are thirst for knowledge and fact or fiction. When you cast them, make sure to do it during your opponent's end of turn step, and if you're afraid of counters then make sure you have your own counter mana open. The exception is an opponent's remand, it's fine if they remand a fact or fiction at the end of your turn, you just paid four mana to make them cycle a remand. Normally that's not great, but in this deck you're stalling, and if all they're doing is cycling cards then you're winning.
WIN CONDITIONS
Obviously the main win condition is the stuffy doll/guilty conscience combo. You only have two consciences, so keep them safe if you've drawn one! An opponent who duresses you will pick the conscience even if they don't know the deck, because it looks like a scary card even if you don't know what it's for. Stuffy doll can be discarded if you're willing to wait for or already have an academy ruins. When you cast guilty conscience, make sure you have counter mana available and hopefully multiple counters if there's any way they can deal with it, it is a must-deal-with threat for your opponent, so expect they will try and deal with it if they can. This combo is the whole point of the deck, it only takes two cards and one half is incredibly resilient and also helps you survive until you can find the second. Mindslaver is only very rarely an actual win condition, typically you're happy to discard it but sometimes it's a backbreaker if used even once, and it gives you some late-game inevitebility. If necessary, you will eventually win through mindslaver recursion. Mindslaver is also an out against a heavy-discard deck that can remove your guilty consciences.
SIDEBOARD
Obviously, tailor it to your metagame. I side in stifle for storm-based combo decks except for goblinstorm and side out wraths. I side in crypts for friggorid, which otherwise is pretty much an auto-loss for you. Wall of shards is a huge blocker with no drawback and I trade it for the mindslavers and fact or fictions against aggro. The extra copies of stuffy doll and guilty conscience can come in against anything that you either think will deal with the first ones, or in matchups where you have dead cards and nothing else to bring in or where you think you have no real chance to win except to combo out quickly and you want to maximize your chances of getting both in the early game.
Matchups:
I haven't kept a record of what I've played or how it did (I didn't expect the deck to be very good, I was wrong!) however, I can give some general matchup advice:
COMBO - You should win every time. You have lots of counterspells and stifles in the board. The only semi-difficult combo matchup is goblinstorm because they can sometimes win through a single counter on their third/fourth turn before you get mana for a second counter. I don't bring in stifle against them, but I do bring in wall of shards.
CONTROL - All of the control decks kind of blend together against this, basically they become the aggro decks and you try and keep their exalted angel, eternal dragon, decree of justice, mindslaver, psychatog etc. from killing you, and then you try and force through your combo. Luckily, you run more counterspells than they do, and their wraths are dead draws. These matchups range from very easy to 50-50 or so depending on what their threat density is and how well they can play around your counters. One suggestion: don't let them get a turn two isochron scepter with anything on it, or you probably lose.
AGGRO - Pre-board stuff like boros, zoo, and aggro rock ranges from 50-50 if you're lucky to nearly impossible to win without an incredibly good hand. You can always luck out and combo for the win, but in the mid-game most aggro can overrun you. After board you've got a much better shot thanks to the walls though, even one of them that sticks in play can stop enough damage to give you the time you need to win. Overall, fast aggro with burn is your worst matchup, but it's rarely worse than say 40-60.
Affinity - I consider this it's own category, and you lose. Maybe with a more dedicated sideboard...
Friggorid - Also... you lose. Without crypts anyways, if you can crypt away enough you've got a good shot. Also, tailor the sideboard for your meta.
Whew... that's probably the most extensive primer I've ever written. If you haven't seen the deck before don't count it out, it's slow and ugly and akward but it also wins. Test it out, try some changes, post your ideas.
The only way I know of getting the pictures for MWS is through torrenting them. The internet I'm using is through my school, and they monitor for people torrenting through their servers and have cut people's internet in my dorm for it.
Is it possible for someone who has the picture files to e-mail them as an attachment? If so, would anybody be willing to send them to me?
Thanks.
G
creature - elf
tap: add one mana of any color to your mana pool
0/1
Seems simple to me ... pretty much strictly worse that BoP, but still does the job. Doesn't break the "flavor" rule with flying.
A replacement for birds doesn't need to be "as good as" birds, it doesn't need an additional ability (ie. flying) just so it can be as powerful as birds, it just needs to tap for rainbow mana, and cost green, with the only drawback being the p/t (0/1).
It could have defender I suppose, but I think it would look too much like utopia tree if it did, so it probably won't.
Dedicated LD is rarely good in any format (although there are exceptions, take for instance Vore decks from standard not too long ago). Usually LD or mana denial in general is part of a bigger plan to distrupt your opponent's ability to win. That's why you see sinkhole, vindicate, and a wasteland/crucible lock in most BW control decks in legacy, because they work well in combination with cards like hymn to touroch and duress, not to mention dark ritual to distrupt your opponent.
In legacy in particular, a dedicated LD deck runs into many problems: the most blindingly obvious being decks which win without lands, or only need to use them once. Many of the non-high tide combo decks will easily combo out without being able to use their lands more than once, especially given how slow your clock is (and yes, a turn four 6/6 is a slow clock in this format). Then look at some of the other major decks in the format: goblins only needs to get a aether vial out to pretty much nullify your entire strategy, and they typically run a large number (up to eight, really) of fetchlands which can sit there waiting until they need the mana. Destroying them requires two LD spells a piece. Thresh can run even more fetches than goblins, and they have counterspells they can use even while they're tapped out (note that daze is a hard counter vs. an LD spell) or have no lands to off your win condition. Their 1-drop and 2-drop (nimble mongoose and werebear, respectively) will also grow very large very quick if you are successful in destroying their lands, and you have no good way to handle them. Finally there's solidarity, which I'll be the first to say you should have a very good matchup against. Solidarity has a very hard time going off without at least four lands on the table, and if you can start throwing LD spells on turn two then you should be able to overrun their counterspells.
Unfortunately, I don't think that beating solidarity soundly is a good reason to have so many other bad matchups against major decks in the format. LD as a dedicated strategy just isn't viable in legacy today.
(and before you complain about me not testing your particular decklist, I will attest that I have tested LD on MWS and have gotten the same results you have with a different conclusion: I win 80% of the time not because the LD deck is any good, but because I am a good player and quite frankly many of the legacy players on MWS are not.)
(and before anyone complains about me saying that many legacy players on MWS aren't that good, uh ... try playing a few games on MWS and see how many people have to read what force of will does, or how many people don't block your turn one lackey with their turn one mongoose. sure lots of people are fine players, but there are still an awful lot of bad ones)
If you have found a deck that will tear up the legacy metagame (which I doubt you have, a single FNM isn't much to go on) then you should be developing it to play in that metagame.
That being said, the deck idea which you are discussing is a rather well-developed idea, a U/B control deck utilyzing sensei's divining top and counterbalance along with a pretty standard suite of other counterspells and removal, with psychatog for the win. You should be able to find a thread detailing this archetype here on the forums, and if you go to starcitygames.com you can look at the decklists for this archetype which have done well at PTQs, all of the top8 decklists are up over there and this archetype has posted some top8s this season I believe.
As for vedalken shackles and spell snare? I personally love them both
It's too bad peek isn't in the format ... splashing black for duress or running that new blue discard spell (the [mana]UX[/card] one, not piracy charm) would be very helpful so you can see what they have in their hand to begin with. For instance, if their hand is land light and they can't play anything or at least anything dangersous with the mana in their hand then you may be better off forcing them to draw expensive spells and no mana rather than lands when they could conceivably play the spells in their hand.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=69094
The deck is a tempo-based control deck that combos out for a win, running a full complement of remands, memory lapses, and repeals alonside good old counterspell and wrath of god. Along with it's cantrips it also runs thirst for knowledge and fact or fiction for card draw, usually for the late game to dig for combo pieces. It normally wins with stuffy doll and guilty conscience, as early as turn five but much more often on turn ten or so. It can win with just stuffy doll, preferably two of them, and it can also get a recurring mindslaver lock in the late game.
Here's the decklist:
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
3 Plains
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Academy Ruins
4 Azorius Signet
4 Remand
4 Memory Lapse
4 Counterspell
4 Repeal
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Wrath of God
3 Stuffy Doll
2 Guilty Conscience
2 Mindslaver
4 Stifle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Wall of Shards
1 Stuffy Doll
2 Guilty Conscience
Card Choices:
MANA
The build I have seems pretty solid, having UU available on turn two isn't too important, but having UUU1 or WW2 on turn four is, this build allows it. The artifact lands are for Thirst for Knowledge, four seems to be a good number, but one or two ancient dens might be even better.
Academy ruins allows for mindslaver to be recurred in the late game, once you have 13 mana available, and it also gets back stuffy dolls if you discarded one to thirst for knowledge or fact or fiction and are ready to combo out. If you draw a second one you can discard it to thirst for knowledge, but that's rarely a problem. Because of all the cantrips and card-drawing you rarely have any mana issues, excepting a fact or fiction flipping over five mana sources which is always bad.
Note: do not play a signet on turn two, and it is ok to take damage from a turn two hallowed fountain to threaten a counterspell. On turn three you play the signet and hold open remand/memory lapse mana, or on turn three you play two signets if you have a wrath or a very strong hand that can recover (ie. if you have the combo in hand already).
CONTROL ELEMENTS
The deck is based on surviving long enough to find the combo, it is not trying to combo out on turn five/six every game, although it is possible with a lucky starting hand. Usually you're happy to combo out by turn ten or so, meaning you need to be able to stall. Remand, Memory Lapse, and Repeal allow you to do that. In the first 3-6 turns or so each of these cards are effectively a time walk if they stop the only spell your opponent was going to play that turn. Wrath is a huge source of card advantage, and usually cast on turn five. Here's a fairly standard opening:
T1 land
T2 land, repeal/remand/memory lapse
T3 land, signet, repeal/remand/memory lapse
T4 land, let them resolve 2-4 threats, EOT Thirst for Knowlege/Fact or Fiction
T5 land, wrath, counterspell
If your opponent isn't playing an aggro-ish deck, then your opening turns will probably consist of nothing but lands and signets as you both set up your hands, but your hand should be far superior once you start playing spells because of the high counterspell density.
Notes: -use remand early, memory lapse is a much better late-game card
- don't be afraid to repeal something unimportant to draw a card late game
- if you don't need wrath, discard it to thirst
- remember you win the late game, you're stalling!
CARD DRAW
remand and repeal cantrip, but your big draw spells are thirst for knowledge and fact or fiction. When you cast them, make sure to do it during your opponent's end of turn step, and if you're afraid of counters then make sure you have your own counter mana open. The exception is an opponent's remand, it's fine if they remand a fact or fiction at the end of your turn, you just paid four mana to make them cycle a remand. Normally that's not great, but in this deck you're stalling, and if all they're doing is cycling cards then you're winning.
WIN CONDITIONS
Obviously the main win condition is the stuffy doll/guilty conscience combo. You only have two consciences, so keep them safe if you've drawn one! An opponent who duresses you will pick the conscience even if they don't know the deck, because it looks like a scary card even if you don't know what it's for. Stuffy doll can be discarded if you're willing to wait for or already have an academy ruins. When you cast guilty conscience, make sure you have counter mana available and hopefully multiple counters if there's any way they can deal with it, it is a must-deal-with threat for your opponent, so expect they will try and deal with it if they can. This combo is the whole point of the deck, it only takes two cards and one half is incredibly resilient and also helps you survive until you can find the second. Mindslaver is only very rarely an actual win condition, typically you're happy to discard it but sometimes it's a backbreaker if used even once, and it gives you some late-game inevitebility. If necessary, you will eventually win through mindslaver recursion. Mindslaver is also an out against a heavy-discard deck that can remove your guilty consciences.
SIDEBOARD
Obviously, tailor it to your metagame. I side in stifle for storm-based combo decks except for goblinstorm and side out wraths. I side in crypts for friggorid, which otherwise is pretty much an auto-loss for you. Wall of shards is a huge blocker with no drawback and I trade it for the mindslavers and fact or fictions against aggro. The extra copies of stuffy doll and guilty conscience can come in against anything that you either think will deal with the first ones, or in matchups where you have dead cards and nothing else to bring in or where you think you have no real chance to win except to combo out quickly and you want to maximize your chances of getting both in the early game.
Matchups:
I haven't kept a record of what I've played or how it did (I didn't expect the deck to be very good, I was wrong!) however, I can give some general matchup advice:
COMBO - You should win every time. You have lots of counterspells and stifles in the board. The only semi-difficult combo matchup is goblinstorm because they can sometimes win through a single counter on their third/fourth turn before you get mana for a second counter. I don't bring in stifle against them, but I do bring in wall of shards.
CONTROL - All of the control decks kind of blend together against this, basically they become the aggro decks and you try and keep their exalted angel, eternal dragon, decree of justice, mindslaver, psychatog etc. from killing you, and then you try and force through your combo. Luckily, you run more counterspells than they do, and their wraths are dead draws. These matchups range from very easy to 50-50 or so depending on what their threat density is and how well they can play around your counters. One suggestion: don't let them get a turn two isochron scepter with anything on it, or you probably lose.
AGGRO - Pre-board stuff like boros, zoo, and aggro rock ranges from 50-50 if you're lucky to nearly impossible to win without an incredibly good hand. You can always luck out and combo for the win, but in the mid-game most aggro can overrun you. After board you've got a much better shot thanks to the walls though, even one of them that sticks in play can stop enough damage to give you the time you need to win. Overall, fast aggro with burn is your worst matchup, but it's rarely worse than say 40-60.
Affinity - I consider this it's own category, and you lose. Maybe with a more dedicated sideboard...
Friggorid - Also... you lose. Without crypts anyways, if you can crypt away enough you've got a good shot. Also, tailor the sideboard for your meta.
Whew... that's probably the most extensive primer I've ever written. If you haven't seen the deck before don't count it out, it's slow and ugly and akward but it also wins. Test it out, try some changes, post your ideas.
Is it possible for someone who has the picture files to e-mail them as an attachment? If so, would anybody be willing to send them to me?
Thanks.