- DarkRitual
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Diefi00 posted a message on Beatdown/ramp deck that beats mono-blue and mono-black?The deck I'm playing right now and will be playing at GP Dallas is Naya Aggro. Mono-Blue devotion's biggest weakness is large amounts of removal while Mono-Black devotion's weakness is quick, powerful creatures. Naya gives both of these right now. It takes GW aggro's powerful creature base and adds real removal.Posted in: Standard Archives
The decks biggest weakness is it's own mana. Your cards are usually just better than your opponent's so even on the hands where you mull (which to be fair is a decent amount) your higher card quality wins for you. The decks worst matchups are the big green decks. When they have hands with ramp and multiple big guys it can be hard to push through damage before getting buried under card advantage by planeswalkers. Give it a try and don't be put off quickly by some bad games. Bad mana is really a fact of powerful decks in standard and is a calculated risk. No matter what deck you choose good luck to you and your friends in your testing. -
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Galerion posted a message on Beatdown/ramp deck that beats mono-blue and mono-black?Well here is a GR Beatdown deck. Jon Stern got 2nd place with it at GP Louisville.Posted in: Standard Archives
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5853&d=233971 -
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Kamahl, the Fallen posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)With rotation just around the corner, it is hard to not take to the brewing table as spoiler season begins. It is always a festival time of year with gathering and gossip within the community and I am excited to kick it off with a continuation of a deck I have been working on since February of 2013.Posted in: Standard Archives
Mythical Monsters
WBR Midrange is a deck that aims to deploy quality threats while maintaining control of the board, positioning itself to take the win. The deck naturally takes the proactive route in maintaining control of the game and the pace in which it is played by using creatures and removal that hinder the opponents strategy while developing towards the end game. Because of the colors, the deck often requires a in depth understanding of the meta game in order to pinpoint it's weaknesses and strengthen them while retaining it's threat level.
With the meta getting a refresher as we move out with the old and in with the new, this archetype stands to gain a lot moving forward. With little impact to the core of the deck, and a powerful creature base and removal selection, the deck has a diverse selection of tools at it's disposal to help it adapt.
Mythic Midrange: Collecting Indormation
What makes this deck so strong, is the options available to it are diverse and powerful when we know what we are combating. As rotation rolls around, the understanding of our strategy begins to blur. So with this, I wanted to take a walk through the deck design process and have a look at what goes into the deck, how it is going to achieve success and how you can take it to the next level.
This is generally where I would document the decks to construct for, however since this is rotation it is not entirely possible to be entirely accurate here. So from here, I am going to present decks that we have been taking into testing that show an amount of promise and consideration.
Naya MidrangeMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creature (26)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Fleecmane Lion
3 Boon Satyr
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Planeswalker (5)
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Chandra, PyromasterInstant (4)
4 Advent of the Wurm
Land (24)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Grounds
2 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 PlainsSideboard (15)
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Boros Charm
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
Naya Midrange is a deck that I personally think shows a lot of promise. It starts right out of the gate and does not let up. It is in your face and ready to throw down.
With cards like Smiter and Voice pushing bodies through, Boon Saytr offers a nice way to really allow you to maximize open mana that may be left behind, or secure yourself a body if there is a concern that one of your creatures is about to be blasted into oblivion.
Putting together a quick start, a beefy mid game and a quick jab in the late game, Naya Midrange shows a lot of promise in our testing.
So how can we prepare for this?
Let me take you back a few months, before Doom Blade hit the press for reprint. Naya Midrange was a brutal match for WBR Midrange. Capable of laying down recurring great fatties like Thragtusk, wurm tokens and Thundermaw Hellkite, Blood Barons and our removal suite just couldn't keep up.
While Doom Blade may have helped shore the match up, it still was not entirely a favorable match and it is hard to say whether the rotation and the new toys Theros brings to the table is going to change that.
My first inclination is that if you want to shore this match up, your removal suite is going to be the best way to do it. Cards like Doom Blade can go a long way in saving yourself from Dragons and Sayter beatings. Glare of Hersey allows you to exile pesky critters like Voice of Resurgence and Loxodon Smiter at a cheap cost.
Lifebane Zombie would be a natural card to turn to, as it hits every creature other than Stormbreath Dragon. It has an incredible amount of targets. However when we think about how creatures are played in this game we all love, a 2 drop hits the board before a 3 drop and creatures are played at sorcery speed. There is no flashing in LBZ to snag a creature at EOT and even if there was, creatures drawn off the tops of decks like this, are generally played before you would have priority anyways. Other than hitting the excess creatures in their hand, LBZ is very capable of blanking and Naya Midrange plays creatures so aggressively in matches like this that your best targets will usually already be on the field.
We can take a few things away from this match when prepping to construct a list.
- Their non-white creatures that are green or red beat Blood Baron.
- 42% of their Creatures are stone cold to Blood Baron in combat.
- 58% of their list can produce a means to block Blood Baron, 38% which kills Blood Baron.
- 33% of the creatures they can produce have evasion of some kind.
The deck is really good at forcing damage through, be it by producing replacement bodies, flashing into an opening, flying or trampling. Optimizing your removal to manage evasive and versatile threats can really save you a lot of life.
The next deck I want to cover has a lot of similar creatures with Naya Midrange, but offers a bit slower pace of play and a swap in functionality.
Junk Midrange MidrangeMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creature (25)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Boon Satyr
4 Desecration Demon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Planeswalker (2)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Instant (7)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Putrefy
1 Hero's DownfallLand (26)
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrin
2 Temple of Silence
1 Selesnya Guildgate
5 Forest
3 Plains
3 SwampSideboard (15)
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Lifebane Zombie
1 Primeval Bounty
2 Underworld Connections
3 Golgari Charm
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Thoughtseize
Now, I am not sure if this is how Junk Midrange is going to look. I see a lot of itterations floating around that run Obzedat, Ghost Council and Whip of Erebos and even Thoughtseize in the main 60. The above list is the one we have had in practice and testing for a bit and a lot of the same principals of the deck apply to the other versions I have seen. Reaper of the Wilds is another card I see in other lists and it is absent from ours, but it is a card I would probably consider when it comes to handling the deck design of WBR Midrange.
Much like Naya, we see a similar set up of Elvish Mystic, Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter and even Boon Satyr. As we observe the higher curve, we see where the black really comes into play. Oppressive creatures like Desecration Demon and Blood Baron are a focal point going into rotation. Desecration Demon being a card that has risen in the ranks towards the end of the INN-RTR Standard format, and Blood Baron of Vizkopa being a go to creature to combat aggressive strategies and push through controlling ones.
Unlike Naya Midrange, this is not a match I really want to try to combat with removal alone. A lot of the options in BWR for removal do not hit their high end creatures and actually kill them. This leads to problematic scenarios where you are trying to race them, but cannot push past a Desecration Demon or your damage is negated by an opposing Blood Baron of Vizkopa. Removal options are not completely out though, as there are options that handle one or the other. One thing to keep in mind is that most removal options are going to either hit Desecration Demon or Blood Baron of Vizkopa and be unable to remove the other either because of the creatures toughness or because of it's protection. Therein lies the issue of relying on removal to get the job done.
Creatures seem like the can do most of the work here. Boros Reckoner can trade with most anything apart from Desecarion Demon and Blood Baron, and our own Blood Barons can even stone wall some of their creatures. All in all, this one is a tough matchup to really get a grasp on as it really comes down to managing resources correctly within the game itself.
So let us come back to this match in a bit, as I feel there is more to discuss outside of just card options.
The next deck I would like to go over is one that I think provides a quick way to really take over a game. GR Aggro/Midrange
GR Aggro/MidrangeMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (27)
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Saytr Hedonist
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Ember Swallower
4 Stormbreath DragonPlansewalker (6)
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Sorcery (3)
3 Mizzium Mortars
Land (24)
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Stomping Ground
9 Mountain
7 ForestSideboard (15)
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Burning Earth
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Hammer of Purphoros
This deck looks pretty similar to the GR aggro lists we were seeing at the end of the format, and they are really geared towards rushing out high impact cards like Domri Rade turn 2 or a big flying dragon out turn 3.
Ghor-Clan Rampager can really lead to quick amounts of damage that can easily take you into the red zone only to drop a flying dragon to finish you off out of nowhere. Stormbreath Dragon is quick and a common answer to things like this would naturally be Warleader's Helix. Much like the Naya Midrange match, this game seems heavily dependent on your removal package. Being able to kill quick threats and stabilize is the main (if not the only) objective.
I see cards like Doom Blade, Shock, Magma Jet and Dreadbore being the best removal followed by Anger of the Gods, which is only really following because a turn 2 Domri or turn 3 Xeganos is still bad news. 2 and 1 mana options allow you to preemptively prevent these situations when you are on the play.
Even when Dragon does not hit, Ember Swallower can just nuke your land base out of seemingly nowhere sometimes and it can be almost impossible to recover. Something to keep in mind is that this deck has other ways to crush you other than Stormbreath Dragon.
Red Deck WinsMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creature (24)
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Firefist Striker
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Rakdos CacklerPlaneswalker (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Enchantment (2)
2 Hammer of Purphorous
Instant (8)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
Land (24)
20 Mountain
4 MutavaultSideboard (15)
2 Act of Treason
4 Burning Earth
4 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Smelt
Red Deck Wins can be fast, even without the red aggro cards Innistrad had to offer. A lot of it comes from the 2 power 1 drops that can really get in some mileage. We discussed Anger of the Gods in our group in this match and the reality is, while it is good, RDW has enough reach to still get there.
It is a pretty straight forward match, typically, decks like this are designed to do a set amount of damage within a set amount of time. Generally 20 damage in 3-4 turns. Once you get past the 4th turn, decks like this begin to see diminishing states as the game progresses. I would like to reiterate that generally, these decks are not designed to do 26 or even 24 damage within those turns... 20. This idea may not summarize these decks and what they can and cannot do, but it puts the match into a bit of perspective.
Lifegain is big. Cards like Warleader's Helix and Blood Baron are most certainly the kind of cards I want in matches like this. But I also want to be able to address the speed in which the opponent can come at me in the same deck. Cheap removal is big here. Being able to keep creatures off the board means being able to survive long enough to take over. The low end of the curve in BWR is exactly where I want to be slotting that can help me keep up.
This is a pretty straight forward match when it comes to evaluating how it works and how to improve it, but I like to sometimes address the obvious... sometimes.
Control
Control decks are something I have not really found a solidified list for, there are a lot of variations and color set ups right now, and the meta really needs to establish itself before I am comfortable throwing out an assumptive list. But I can discern a few things about control matches.
- Thoughtseize creates opening to play and protect your win conditions.
- Early threats demand early answers.
- Early answers means no drawing.
- Mid to late game removes their draw/win condition at an optimal time.
Thoughtseize is an incredibly way to keep them off of what they want to do and keep you on top of you what want to do. It is not just Thoughtseize either, any pinpoint hand disruption is applicable.
If we have early enough threats that can get mileage in, it draws out removal and gives us time to capitalize on pinpoint removal in the mid stages to set up an endgame or keep them off playing high value cards like Sphinx's Revelation.
Hand disruption is really the number one way to really control where this kind of match goes and how it plays out.
Mythical Midrange: Designing the Deck
We have somewhat established and reviewed some of the possible contenders of the format and we are at the point where we can build with a projected meta in mind. Because the meta is unknown, I like to try and keep my card selection as broad and universal as possible and narrow down card options after things begin to settle. There is nothing worse than selecting cards that are really good in a situation only to have them flop over on you by merit of rarely needing them for their purpose. Cards like this are best delegated to the SB going into an unknown and open meta.
I like to start with establishing a core, this helps me know what cards typically remain in the MB regardless of the match and generally are selections that survive deck revisions.
This is my personal core. Boros Reckoner is a rather universal card, he can go on the offense against Control for a fair amount of DOT, hinder aggressive strategies and trade with most midrange fatties. Dreadbore is a great catch all removal spell. It does not care what color it's target is, how much toughness it has or what it's mana cost is. It can even branch out and hit Planeswalkers.
Dreadbore was primarily chosen over Hero's Downfall because it cost 1 less. Instant speed is great an all, but our curve options can get pretty steep when we look at what creatures we have access to and if I lose instant speed to save myself a bit of life and have to cast it on my own turn, I am okay with that. It also let's me play into a Reckoner on curve, where Hero's Downfall does not.
Chained to the Rocks is another example of a great catch all removal spell, and much like Dreadbore, it does not take into account various facts about it's target. The catch here is that it requires a mountain. We can touch on that a bit later when we work on the mana base. Another thing I like about Chained to the Rocks is that I can play it turn 2 to remove a creature and save myself the issue of shocking myself to play a 2 mana removal spell. This let's me play a shockland tapped or get in an early scry for prep.
Thoughtseize, while not optimal in every match up (note RDW), is still good enough to catch problematic cards that other spells of ours cannot catch, It grabs anything and everything that is relevant. While being a weak topdeck, I would rather be able to ensure openings or pinpoint disruption than worry about hitting it in top deck mode. While you can have dead cards in any match, Thoughtseize is not narrow enough to ever really be complete trash in any given match. RDW might be the only exception to this.
I did not really involve any other creatures other than Boros Reckoner in the core, mainly because while there are standard options, I think this area is where it is probably the most flexible, even those some choices are clearly better than others.
The deck with this core really begins to set a more controlling undertone and briefly overlooking some of my notes about the above lists it seems like that is where we are really looking to be. A deck that can maintain control and manage the pace in which the game is played and power out in the middle to late game.
The core is primarily removal, so let's step away from it for a bit and look at our closing creatures and try and get an idea of what is what and work out the kinks from there.
Below is a list of creatures available to our colors which can act as closers.
Creatures
- Desecration Demon
- Ember Swallower
- Alms Beast
- Blood Baron of Vizkopa
- Underworld Cerberus
- Stormbreath Dragon
- Obzedat, Ghost Council
- Aurelia, the Warleader
- Angel of Serenity
- Ashen Rider
Quite a few options we have here, each offers a pretty robust body with their own unique set of applications. For the sake of simplifying things, I feel that we can probably cut Alms Beast, Underworld Cerberus, Angel of Serenity and Ashen Rider from our lists. They are either too expensive or require more work to upkeep than they should.
Desecration Demon - This guy is big, and he excels at forcing the opponent into a corner fairly quickly if left unmolested. I really like the idea of getting more than 1 removal out of the way on every other turn through his ability and a spell.It can add up quickly. His draw back does not seem to be all that big of a draw back when they are not able to keep up with him by putting out more fodder, but it can be a complete drawback when they can and he may never actually get to attack. Junk Midrange is a good example of where he might not be at his best, where he can be held off long enough to just remove.
Ember Swallower - Ember Swallower is kind of a vanilla ground pounder. I am not sure I would ever really activate monstrosity unless it was going to win me the game, and when that moment arises, I was probably already winning to begin with. His 4/5 body makes him a big wall capable of blocking almost every creature that could come his way. At the end of the day, he has no protection against removal and nothing actually gives him a boost in playability other than the capability of blocking ground pounders of a large variety.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa - This card is widely talked about right now. He may not fly and he may not first strike, but his protection makes him difficult to remove, and gaining 4 life every time he deals damage is nothing to scoff at. He can get by a number of spells and creatures. If there was a problem with this card, it would be big green fatties or red damage. Burn spells do not really remove these kinds of things from the BBV equation which can make it hard to actively protect Blood Baron in some matches.
Stormbreath Dragon - What really stands out to me here is the flying and haste. He also provides blocking support against white creatures, which much like Blood Baron, can help halt white aggression. His ability to go monstrous is incredibly threatening even if there are no cards in the opponent's hand. Being able to dodge Azorius Charm and Detention Sphere is also a pretty big plus in my opinion. I am not really a fan of the 4/4 body in the same deck where I would want Blood Baron of Vizkopa, because it gives Mizzium Mortars that much more, but I don't think that this card has any other cons besides that.
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Has been a common point of contention against Blood Baron of Vizkopa. His body dodges Mizzium Mortars but does not really save you against aggro decks. Whip of Erebos really does put Obzedat ahead of Blood Baron on many levels, but my heart sinks when I have to have another cards for Obzedat to be better than Blood Baron of Vizkopa. Putrefy, Hero's Downfall, Glare of Hersey and Dark Betrayal are all valid removal spells that just kill Obzedat and Whip is really the only way to offset this and it only does it if they do not kill him in the same turn.
Aurelia, the Warleader - This angel cost a lot of mana and on double demand as well. It is a bit of a hindrance in playability, but a kink that can easily be worked out. Her upside of being able to attack for 6 and block is pretty big, and if you have any other bodies on the board, she could just close out a game. It is like a shiny red button that says "I WIN" on it and all you have to do is lift up the glass cover and press it. If Boros Reckoner is your other meat on board, her ability can feasibly just win you a game you would otherwise have no business winning.
With the finisher package, and taking into account the projections in the beginning of the article, I wand my finishers to be diverse and effective. Qualities I am looking for are
- Potential to stabilize me.
- Difficult to remove or quick to attack.
- Capable of mattering in a "Race me" scenario.
RG and RDW are using quick incremental damage to get you into the red zone and surprise you with a game ender before you can stabilize.
Naya Midrange likes to play the racing game between other midrange decks and it does it incredibly well
Junk Midrange tries to oppress other midrange matches by playing power beaters backed with removal, and it is quite efficient at this game.
My finisher package is going to look something like this
Each of these creatures can contribute to stabilizing, are difficult to remove or quick to attack, and can aid in a "Race me" scenario.
Desecration Demon is a common choice, but the loss of control that can happen when decks are packing Voice of Resurgence, Elvish Mystics and other fodder accompanied by "Race me" cards like Desecration Demon and Stormbreath Dragon, turn me off of Desecration Demon for now. Even though he can help manage a board, I don't fully have control over when he gets to attack and when he gets to block and I don't like that in the projected format.
Obviously, there are other ways to win that are not creatures. Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Assemble the Legion are other ways to help close out a game. But more on these options later.
For now, let us move on to disruption options. Disruption is going to allow us to answer problematic cards as well as help control the pace in which the game is played.
Disruption
I bit shorter of a list we have here, but all very potent options.
Duress - Seems like more of a sideboard card to me. I don't want it in anything other than the control match or the mirror match. Naya and Junk do not really run enough targets for me to feel like I would want this in the MB and the aggro matches it does next to nothing. Extra discard against control is always a plus.
Thoughtseize - Unlike Duress, this card hits anything other than lands which means more targets regardless of the match type you are in. It can pull out problematic cards, big threats or timely removal spells. Paying 2 life can add up quickly in aggressive matches and can very well be the difference between life and death.
Sin Collector - I have talked about this card a lot and it's application in the MB as well as provided numbers to give people a rough idea of why this card can make the MB where Duress cannot. While I would not want to stack my deck full of Sin Collector, I can see running 1-2. The 2/1 body means the card is not completely dead in matches where it has no targets and in the case that it is taking a card, it is generally removal for a threat you are likely to drop shortly afterwards Sin Collector offers a lot of finisher security. If I were going to write this card off as a sideboard card, Duress would probably fill it's spot a lot better. Sin Collector feels like MB utility/disruption or bust.
Lifebane Zombie - Another great option for snagging cards. While I historically do not really agree with it's mainboard application, I certainly feel like this card can be powerful in the right matches, but incredibly weak in the matches where it is not powerful. He does not hit creatures that come out faster than him, unless they are excess in the opening hand and you are dropping him turn 3. Generally on turn 4, the 1 and 2 and even 3 drops are already out on the battlefield. Every consecutive turn after this point of the game, you can reasonably assume that when you cast him, he is not going to hit anything you have not seen. The nature of creatures at this point in the game are that they are generally played off the top of the deck the turn they are drawn, which makes late game Lifebane Zombie kind of a dead disruption card card. An "unblockable" 3/1 is a fairly fragile body to any red based deck and blue decks are generally packing plenty of answers to write him of when they are good and ready.
Rakdos's Return - Return combines the powerful elements of scaling with complete hand disruption of even liquidation. Because lands, spells and creatures are all played during the course of the game, Rakdos's Return provides a bit of midgame inevitability as the opponents hand is rarely as full as it was at the start of the game. I like that this card can just take them down to 0 for us. The fact that we do not have a lot of draw makes this more important, as it is a means to produce card advantage in our colors. It can also help get us into blasting range off creatures and burn spells or even just get the job done itself. Additional hand disruption like Thoughtseize can really go a long ways in helping secure this spells resolution and even at a lower premium.
I really did not have a hard time selecting my options for disruption. Thoughtseize and Rakdos's Return can just shred the hands of any midrange or control deck quite quickly. Thoughtseize is already in my core I presented earlier, but I wanted to show it in this classification to kind of help reiterate why it is included.
My disruption package is going to look something like this
The deck is starting to flesh itself out. The core gives us some removal to compliment our creatures and disruption which all come together to help us set ourselves up for success, protect ourselves when we are slow and turn sideways when we can pull ahead.
The numbers clearly vary and I am not entirely sure what counts I want each of these at, but I want to establish the ball park and then flesh them out accordingly or as needed, a bit later on.
Our creatures are kind of leaning on the heavier side of things, which makes the deck fairly slow and we need some things to do in the earlier stages. Unfortunately for our colors, we are kind of limited to removal options. That is not necessarily a bad thing, it just seems a little bland compared to throwing down Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Xenagos, the Reveler or Domri Rade. Let's look at some removal options.
Removal
- Chained to the Rocks
- Magma Jet
- Mizzium Mortars
- Dreadbore
- Doom Blade
- Ultimate Price
- Hero's Downfall
- Anger of the Gods
- Warleader's Helix
There is a good number of options available to these colors and they are some of the best available in standard in my opinion.
Chained to the Rocks - Once again, Chained to the Rocks is in there despite being my initial core. This card is really good at moving problematic creatures out of the way. With at least 12 mountains with the shock lands alone which is a minimum of 48% of the mana base and we can assume that there is roughly 38% chance of having a single mountain in your opening hand on just the shock lands alone. I like that the card can allow you to play a removal spell on turn 2 while scrying off a scry land or not having to shock yourself to remove a thread against a quick aggro deck. Chained to the rocks is also a good answer to cards like Desecration Demon and even god cards when devotion is online. The obvious draw back is that enchantment removal can just swing the game back in their favor when you least expect it.
Magma Jet - I could go on and on about this card, I really like that it offers a lot in a small little package. Magma Jet is great for early removal that is easy on the mana, instant speed and can be aimed at the face in the later game. Perhaps the most appealing to me though, is the ability to set yourself up for the next turn. Digging 2 cards deep, even if you are not drawing one, is a great way to sift for outs or extra aggression. Indexing your assets is an incredibly useful ability to have access too, especially when your deck consists of colors that do not have a whole lot of decent draw options available to them.
Mizzium Mortars - This card was used in the past as cheap removal spell that could flip in the later game to a hefty removal spell. Mizzium Mortars is quite capable of doing this. I think that Mizzium Mortars, even with Anger of the Gods, is still an strong spell to have access to. A lot of green white or green red decks are packing creatures with 4 toughness and they are creatures that are still fairly cheap. Kalonial Hydra, Loxodon Smiter, Ghor-Clan Rampager, Blood Baron of Vizkopa are all great targets beyond the usual cheap critters that are smaller. This spell seem as versatile as ever. Perhaps my favorite idea of this card is that it allows us to potentially skip Anger of the Gods in the main while still having and option to sweep in the mainboard, which can cover us in the midrange matches where some things that Anger of the Gods could not hit. I am fond of the idea of both cards in our deck really. Killing Desecration Demon is something I want to be able to do, and Mortars fails in that regard.
Dreadbore - Yet another card included in my core. It is capable of killing anything without being bias. It is a mana cheaper than Hero's Downfall and the RB as opposed to 1BB means it is easier on the mana and cheaper to cast when we need a quick removal spell.
Doom Blade - A great removal spell that is easy on the mana, instant speed and only limited when it comes to decks running black. However with Desecration Demon, I kind of hesitate on this spell. Being able to remove Reckoner, Stormbreath Dragon, Loxodon Smiter and so many other creatures seem pretty relevant in a lot of matches. I would say that this card upon initial investigation is just not really where I want to be on removal, but it really depends on the numbers if I am going to go with this...
Ultimate Price - Much like Doom Blade, this card hits a lot of targets, but is limited when it comes to decks running high counts of multicolor creatures. Naya Midrange is a good example of a match where this card seems terrible. Against Naya Midrange, this card is dead against 65% of their creatures and 58% of their nonland deck, which is pretty poor. Offhand, these numbers are enough to have me stray against this card as a removal spell for the mainboard.
Hero's Downfall - The more expensive Dreadbore which has instant speed and more restrictive mana requirements. I don't have a whole lot to say about this card or even really look at other than Dreadbore's existence. A single turn against an aggressive deck like RDW could mean 4+ life you just lost because you wanted an instant speed Dreadbore and that is assuming you have the double black for it. The mana requirements for the card may not be entirely restrictive, and you can adjust your mana to make it work, but I really do not see much of a point in putting in that kind of effort when you have access to Dreadbore.
Anger of the Gods - This is a card I am torn on. Part of me certainly wants this in the main 60 while another part wants me to just have it in the 15 card board. I think this card is pretty essential to clearing out a bunch of creatures before laying down something like Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Desecration Demon or any other fatty for that matter. There still are a number of situations where I would hate to draw this card in a game 1, and if you include Mizzium Mortars in your main 60 cards, I think this card is best in the sideboard.
Warleader's Helix -Probably one of the best ways to recover in regards to removal options. Against aggressive decks, it conceptually backs your life total back up and can undo an entire turn at times. Instant speed in a deck that is kind of lacking in 4CC cards seems like a good thing to keep in mind. Worst case, you are aiming it at their head. 4 damage seems to be the magical mark for a lot of midrange creatures as well. Loxodon Smiter, Ghor-Clan Rampager, Stormbreath Dragon, Blood Baron of Vizkopa and even a few others that may or may not see play and while Helix may not hit Dragon or Baron, I think it is an important thing to try and keep in mind when you build your removal package.
After reviewing the options here, I feel like my removal package is going to bring the list to looking something like this
We have ways to kill creatures like Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Stormbreath Dragon with a few extra options of removal, such as Dreadbore for the Dragon and Mizzium Mortars for the Barons, they are also good at catching other creatures as well. The removal is built on the foundation that when one option is dead, it is not without a replacement.
The idea behind the removal is something like a carousel. While the removal package is set up to be able to handle almost any creature with any one of the removal spells, there are some situations where the removal package is going to require one of two parts, rather than one of four. In the case of Desecration Demon, we see that Warleader's Helix and Mizzium Mortars are dead removal cards and cannot actually remove him, but we have a fallback in either Chained to the Rocks or Dreadbore. Similarly, in the case of Stormbreath Dragon, Chained to the Rocks and Warleader's Helix are unable to kill the dragon, which still gives us a fallback of Mizzium Mortars or Dreadbore. The idea of having the removal set up like a carousel helps us ensure we are able to provide a proper answer and this is the reason I went with the removal set up that I did.
One removal spell I left out that you may have been asking yourself about is Anger of the Gods. It seems like a card for the main 60 for sure, as aggro decks are all but a given. I really liked the idea of skipping this removal spell in the main for a few reasons, which may not matter all that much, but for the sake of midrange matches, I factored in. Remember when I mentioned that 4 toughness seemed to be be a magical number for midrange creatures? Anger of the Gods does not hit these creatures, Mizzium Mortars does, and in a bind, I can overload a Mizzium Mortars to sweep the board rather than have Anger of the Gods against fatties that I would otherwise not be able to sweep away. I also wanted my removal count to contain roughly 10-12 removal spells and fitting in Anger of the Gods means cutting another removal spell, and I really wanted the option to have my removal flow like a revolving door. For these reasons, Anger of the Gods is more than likely going to just be a card in the 15 card side.
Pressing forward, we are missing our lands. 25 seems to be a good count for most midrange decks, and I like that number. In the previous standard, I ran 26 with Faithless Looting so I could pitch the extra land and essentially trade them away for fresh nonland cards to boost my options during the course of a game. However with out digging and filtering, I feel 25 is a stable number for most midrange decks without mana dorks.
I don't necessarily want to sort out the color combinations or focus on the land base too much at this point, so let's leave it at 25 lands for now and start shaving down the numbers of our cards so we can gauge how many empty spots we have an how we can fill them in.
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (12)
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Aurelia, the WarleaderRemoval (12)
4 Dreadbore
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Warleader's HelixDisruption (5)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's Return
Land (25)
25 Land
Starting with the creatures,I know that I really like Blood Baron and how he can push past removal and wall aggro decks, I am going to start with maxing his available slots and we can always taper it down if we need to do so. Obzedat did not make my cuts, his mana cost seems fairly demanding for a lackluster ability. If I was running Whip of Erebos, I might consider him and just make the mana work, recurring him is a powerful effect and giving him lifelink nearly breaks him, alas I don't know if we will have room for Whip or if I even want to fit it in. Stormbreath Dragon is a quick beater than can just end games out of nowhere, I really like this guy and I am not sure if I want to run 2 or 3, but I am leaning on 2 for now simply because I do not want to flood on the top of the curve. Aurelia is fitting in at 2, her ability to race is very appealing to me and she can always get damage in and block if need be and I fancy that.
For the removal, I wanted 4 Dreadbore. It kills pretty much anything other than Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Desecration Demon and Stormbreath Dragon being my two biggest reasons for maxing this spell. Three Chained to the Rocks helps me with the early game, while still being able to handle Desecration Demon. Being able to play a turn 2 removal spell against an aggro deck saves me a pretty portion of life when I do not have to worry about shocking myself to take out a creature, or even helps me focus on my next turn with a Scry land. I went with 2 Mizzium Mortars for Blood Barons, Ghor-Clan Rampager, Loxodon Smiter and Stormbreath Dragon. It is a fewer number when considering Blood Baron of Vizkopa, but our own Blood Barons can pick up a lot of slack here as well. It hits more great targets than it does not. Three Warleader's Helix seemed like a reliable number, I did not want to max this slot because I wanted to save it for some cheaper removal for the aggressive matches.
The disruption package seem like a standard number. Thoughtseize is great, but taking 1 out does not seem like it is going to hurt too much, it saves us life and helps reduce the number of bad top decks. The dual Rakdos's Returns are to help ensure we see it when we want to see it, tearing an opponents hand away is great way to lock in a control or midrange match and I was to ensure I see this card in those games.
We have 29 of 35 slots filled which gives us 6 open slots to play with and I would really like a bit more utility cards in here. Cards that will support us in some way.
There are not a whole lot of options for utility in our colors that are also not already taking up space in the deck. Of the few that are available, Whip of Erebos really stands out to me, and Read the Bones is a great way to filter and draw to ensure we are always packing something. Trading Post, Haunted Plate Mail, and Planeswalkers have honorable mention, but I feel they are not as powerful given the list as it is fleshing out. We already have a good number of high impact cards in the list as it is, and really we just want ways to either hit them or send them over the edge.
With 6 slots in mind, I can see me running 2 or 3 of each of these, but I really do not want to overdo either of them. Too many Read the Bones with Shock lands and Thoughtseize can add up quickly and multiple Whips makes for bad topdecks. So I think I will be going with 3 Read the Bones and 1 Whip of Erebos which is 4 of the 6 open slots.
With whip in the deck, I am going to swap out a Blood Baron with a single Obzedat for late control games and cheats with Whip in other matches.
Sin Collector gives me a bit of Utility, he was discussed earlier as a Disruption card, but the fact that he has a body on him means I can not only bring it back with the whip, but block creatures creating a bit of a Swiss Army knife set up in the list
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (14)
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Sin Collector
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Aurelia, the WarleaderRemoval (12)
4 Dreadbore
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Warleader's Helix
Disruption (5)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's ReturnUtility (4)
3 Read the Bones
1 Whip of Erebos
Land (25)
25 Land
Read the Bones, as stated earlier, can add up. I am not sure if this is the right count for this spell, but I feel as if 3 draw slots are where I want to be.
A card I remember being discussed in the previous rotation was Wild Guess, and when you had Faithless Looting, it seemed like a pointless card to run at the time. What I like about it here is that it saves me 2 life, filters through some cards and gives me the option to just toss out cards that are irrelevant, excess land, or a creature to throw out to the Whip, like Obzedat. It seems really gimmicky, but drawing 2 cards can go a really long ways in finding outs and Whip can alleviate a bit of the downside as well. Saving the life for the decent indexing capabilities and deck compaction seems fairly reasonable to me, but this might be a bit skewed because I am so use to using Faithless Looting anyways (which later in the format only had 1-2 flashback targets). When you are also running a deck that has batches of tools or finishers that are tailored to specific matches, discarding almost irrelevant cards is not the worst thing to be doing.
So with the understanding that Whip of Erebos allows us to potentially buy back cards in the graveyard for a little cushion space on the discard, let us look at the more important part of Wild Guess.
Much like Divination and Inspiration, Wild Guess clearly lets you draw 2 cards. But what does that really mean?
It is turn 4 and your opponent has just played a Desecration Demon and passed the turn. You have no removal and no creature to sacrifice to the demon to keep it at bay while wait for a Dreadbore or a Chained to the Rocks.
For the sake of understanding what drawing two cards means in this scenario, let's assume that you have used 1 of your 4 Dreadbores which leaves you with 6 outs left to the Demon that you can draw into.
Wild Guess, Divination, and Inspiration all give you an 11% chance of drawing 1 of 3 Dreadbore, an 11% chance of drawing 1 of 3 Chained to the Rocks and a 21% chance of drawing 1 of the 6 outs to the Desecration Demon assuming this was your first series of draws outside of your draw step.
Now, we know we cannot run Divination or Inspiration, but what really makes the drawing 2 off of a Wild Guess better than Read the Bones other than the loss of life? Read the Bones does indeed dig deeper, we could double our chanced of hitting our outs to Desecration Demon simply by running Read the Bones over Wild Guess and we could save a card. Wild Guess does one thing better than Read the Bones in this scenario, it leaves you a second mana open for Dreadbore. If you are on the draw and in this scenario, even if you draw Dreadbore off of Read the Bones, you cannot cast it.
This scenario could also apply to a situation with Stormbreath Dragon when thinking about the numbers and chances to draw an out, but on the flip side of the mana, chances are you are facing an aggressive deck like Naya Midrange, where not only are you taking 2 damage from Read the Bones, but the probability of facing down more than just a Stormbreath Dragon is certainly possible.
Now that I have your head thinking about numbers, let's take our list and move on to the mana base.
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (14)
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Sin Collector
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Aurelia, the WarleaderRemoval (12)
4 Dreadbore
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Warleader's Helix
Disruption (5)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's ReturnUtility (4)
1 Read the Bones
2 Wild Guess
1 Whip of Erebos
Land (25)
25 Land
There are a lot of ways people devise a mana base and I have seen some pretty interesting and successful methods, but I personally might do it a bit different. I like to save time. Glancing at the mana costs of my creatures, I just simply count how many of each are in existence for each unique card.
51% - WWWWWWWWWWW
48% - BBBBBBBBBB
57% - RRRRRRRRRRRRR
We have a pretty even break between all of our colors, which actually makes for a pretty even and easy mana base to build from, and I think my originally proposed mana base is actually spot on.
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards 4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Mutavault
With 12 White sources, 13 Black sources, and 14 Red Sources I think we are looking pretty good. Note that I went with Rakdos Guildgate over Boros Guildgate because while I do want more R and white sources to be able to reliably cast Aurelia, I feel it is more important to ensure you can cast a Dreadbore on turn 2 than casting Aurelia on turn 6.
Our main board is looking pretty good. We have reliable answers to almost any creature that can be presented, we have powerful creatures that are capable of helping us stabilize, who can dodge removal, and who can offer up a "Race me" scenario. Our disruption gives us a good set up to proactively engage our strategy against control decks, and help keep the midrange match balanced or in our favor.
Here is the list
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (14)
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Sin Collector
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
Removal (12)
4 Dreadbore
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Warleader's Helix
Disruption (5)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's ReturnUtility (4)
1 Read the Bones
2 Wild Guess
1 Whip of Erebos
Land (25)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 MutavaultSideboard (15)
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Doom Blade
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Duress
2 Glare of Hersey
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Thoughtseize
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Wear//Tear
Sideboarding is a scenario where it really is going to adjust itself to fit your particular meta and play style and the above list is not exactly what I consider to be tuned, it is what I consider to be a foundation. The cards that were chosen provide you a broad spectrum of answer and threats and while they may be optimal, that does not mean that the numbers are correct or that the utility set up is the most helpful.
Plenty of specialized removal in the SB, Doom Blade is great for aggro decks, Naya Midrange and basically any deck that loves to play creatures that are not black. Glare her Hersey is great at ridding yourself of pesky white creatures like Voice of Resrugence, Fleecemane Lion, Loxodong Smiter, Archangel of Thune and even little creatures that you might find in a white weenie strategy. Anger is also good for a number of these matches as well.
Until Next Time
I hope you all enjoyed this journey with me and possibly learned a little something about anything.
In my next piece I will break down various matches play by play and give you Mythic Midrange by the numbers.
-Kamahl, the Fallen
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Garridy posted a message on Just getting into commander, help?If you look at Commander Decklist Database V2.0 you can get a lot of good ideas for your deck.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
There are decklists and/or primers for pretty much every possible general. -
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Loozar402 posted a message on Just getting into commander, help?Ghave, Guru of the Spires is another Junk general worth looking at. As far as Jund goes, Sek'kuar, Deathkeeper is pretty neat.Posted in: Commander (EDH) -
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NGW posted a message on Just getting into commander, help?First welcome to the best format.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Second I recommend finding a general to build around or an archetype to focus on.
Third, check the following threads:
Hidden Gems
Top 50 Cards
A primer for the general you choose.
Your playgroup will also be important when it comes to making meta-based inclusions (such as if you need more graveyard hate, something to shut down/punish ramp, cards to hose tokens, etc. as well as knowing what cards are or are not socially accepted in the group (some frown on land destruction, some encourage it, for example).
Also try and keep in mind, while some cards have effects that may be available in more budget friendly form, don't be afraid to spend a little if you have to either for consistency, redundancy, or because the budget option really isn't good enough. -
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Tiemuuu posted a message on GTC established decks?Saito's new Naya lists are pretty Beatdown oriented. I think they're almost 100% aggro, except that they almost always assume the controlling role in aggro mirrors. Tricky. I would count them as aggro decks though, the Naya-Midrange decks run 4 Thragtusks and maybe some Angel of Serenities.Posted in: Standard Archives
Jund Midrange plays *very* differently to Naya and every RG aggro deck. It's far more controlling -just look at the 3-slot. Vampire Nighthawks. Liliana of the Veils. It plays lots of removal, Olivia Voldaren, Rakdos's Return, maybe even a Staff of Nin. It's almost like a control deck, except that it doesn't play Sphinx's Revelations or permission, but fights them with Duresses and Slaughter Games.
If you want, you can check the Jund Midrange primer it has a small section about what defines "Midrange". Basically it just means playing better creatures than aggro, playing more for the end-game, but still winning via superior board presence. Against control Midrange has to assume the beatdown role. -
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Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from DisilThis happens very frequently with Augurs and I don't get what it is you're trying to tell me since we're talking about two completely different things. The cards go into the graveyard and will never be able to draw them again whereas when put to the bottom of my library I will eventually draw them again, maybe even sooner when there's more Auguring, Resto+Auguring and even some Terminusing going on so I might draw the Pike 12 Turns before the game ends. This will never be the case when using Thought Scour because whatver gets binned is just gone.
This is based on the assumption that I Thought Scour at all. If I refrain from Scouring myself I will have a 100% chance of drawing Pike eventually. Given I rarely draw all 60 cards that percentage decreases. Using Scour on yourself increases the chance to mill the Pike and that is in no way counteracted by the draw 1, especially since it's draw 1 and not 2. If it were "mill 2 then draw 2" I would kind of get what you're saying although I still wouldn't mill myself then, but at least it would make a little more sense.
There we have the problem. You've got 1# and 2# and one additional chance at Pike, not two. You can't just factor the natural draw step in. You always draw that one card. Scour doesn't affect that. What it does is make you bin 2 cards in exchange for drawing 1. In other words what I said in my previous post: 2/3 chance to mill Pike and 1/3 chance to draw pike. Afterwards you have a 1/1 chance to draw pike because you only draw once and discard zero ergo if Pike is the next card you will draw it.
Here's what Gerry Thompson had to say about that:
I said in the comment section of his most recent article:
'[...]many of my matches come down to the "when do I finally draw the pike" moment, if I haven't milled it away already which often spells doom.'
To which he replied:
'I agree that sometimes you mill it when you really need it to be able to win, but at that point, you should just be Thought Scouring them.'
I don't care if I get infractions, I'm just going to spit it anyway. You're pretty god damn ignorant. You're basically stupid. Can't you even comprehend what I have been talking about? You have basically decided to rant about the same things without addressing ANYTHING I have said. Please, I made a very, VERY thoughful post, so at least you could have given it a nod.
Sorry for being rude, it's just the topic that makes me grudgy, because always arises from time to time. First of all, your last example doesn't prove anything, because you would deck yourself if you played thought scour on yourself. As I said, as long as, and only as long you're not milling your whole library away, milling doesn't hurt you. So in that scenario you depictured, no I would not use thought scoure on myself, but only because I would deck myself. Simple as.
This is what I said. If you know you are going to draw all the cards from your library, don't scour yourself. Milling yourself would lead to drawing less cards. If you draw 40 cards instead 50, you are less likely to draw the pike.
If, however, you are not going to draw all the cards from your library, milling yourself will not affect the number of cards you draw. If you still draw 40 cards, be it different cards, the chance of drawing the pike REMAINS the same. Milling the Pike gives you information: You will not draw the Pike at any point of the game. But it doesn't matter, because statistically the chance of drawing the Pike was, however, the same. It will only have a psychological effect, which makes you think that milling yourself will harm you, but in reality, you still get the same odds IN ADDITION to the information that you will not draw the Pike at any point of the game.
EDIT: Milling your library is just the same as rearranging your library, as mentioned before me. Making the desicion to mill yourself is just the same as making the decisions, for example, to draw from the bottom of your library. You will draw different cards, but still have no control over what cards you draw, which means that if you draw the same amount of cards, be it from the top or the bottom of the library, the chances to draw a Pike remain the same.
EDIT: All in all your logic is extremely flawed. That 1/3 and 2/3 chances of drawing is total nonsense. You have to think about the whole library, you have think about the bic picture. The basics of probabilities.
No need for that. Warning issued.
-Mabberman - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
2
1. Try to get them to play EDH. Commander 2014 is coming out soon. So it's easy enough to start building a deck. EDH is really good about evening the playing field as long as no one is playing a completely busted deck.
2. There are Dual Decks. It's 2 pre-built decks that I think cost like 50 bux combined and while the power level is nothing like affinity, it's certainly going to be better than your friend's 80 card mill deck.
3. I think someone mentioned alternate rule set sorts of things like Planechase/Archenemy.
4. You could make your own house rules designed to even up the game a little bit. You mentioned your friend getting mana screwed, you could play a game where both players have an Abundance in play the whole game. So upkeep, if they really need that 5th land drop, they can keep going till they hit a land.
1
If we're talking about Rattleclaw Mystic only (I've been calling it Shaman this whole time for some reason), I don't see how you can say it's closer to 1% than 10%. Now, I'll admit that I haven't played in a major tournament since Khans rotated in, but I know how to look up deck-lists and see that Rattleclaw is played either in Temur beatdown decks or straight RG beatdown and in addition to that just use a little logic. In the lists I'm seeing, Rattleclaw Mystic is played a lot with Elvish Mystic. So that means any hand with Rattleclaw + Elvish Mystic... you are going to want to morph because you get to morph turn 2. And I can imagine specific starting hands that would favor morphing on turn 3: like 3 lands, Rattleclaw, Caryatid, Stormbreath, Lightning Strike or something like that.
1
I agree. But I dispute the logic that either of them might as well not have morph. Certainly you are going to just play them face up the majority of the time, but to act like there won't be significant percentages (say around 10%) of the time where you want to play them face down.
With Rattleclaw you lose the ability to play your 4 drop on turn 3. But maybe you don't have a 4 drop in your hand. Or maybe you are playing against aggro and you played another 2 CMC card on turn 2... on turn 3 your decision is either play Shaman for 2 or morph it for 3. Obviously against aggro in this scenario being able to block a 1/1 token and survive is relevant (while still leaving open the possibility to unflip it turn 4 and drop something for 6. I could see the majority of times you play him as a morph having more to do with the fact you have the 1 mana open anyway, so might as well play him face down.
With Sagu Mauler playing him face down means he's an easy target to shoot down. So I actually don't you want to be morphing him turn 4 so that turn 5 you can flip him up so that he'd be in play a turn earlier. Seems like it's too risky just to walk into a removal spell when you don't have to. That being said, there are some matchups where that's a safe proposition. And there are some matchups where you just need dudes on the table. If it's turn 5, playing Shaman face up and Sagu Mauler face down is a play you might have to make if you are trying to stem the tide against aggro.
This might all be a moot point because Mauler is looking like it's not making the cut in Temur anyways.
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I could see it getting banned in Modern because they are much more aggressive about banning cards. In Standard, they only ban cards if it's just a crazy situation. And even then they'll still wait a couple of months to do so. The only times cards have been banned in Standard since we've switched to the Modern card frame are:
Skullclamp: because it got to the point where Skullclamp was in every deck that T8'd a tournament, even though the format was actually somewhat diverse.
Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault/Artifact lands: Because the Affinity deck once Ravager had been printed turned into a resilient combo that went off very fast. Format was largely skewed toward affinity.
Stoneforge Mystic/Jace the Mind Sculptor: Again, the format was skewed heavily toward a deck that played both of these cards. Like... over 50% of the field. To the point where JTMS was a 100 dollar card. And it really only saw play in the one deck. The only card that has come close to that money value recently was Bonfire of the Damned at 50 dollars, but it was in multiple decks and it rose and fell out of popularity during it's reign in Standard. It's worth noting that in the case of Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, they waited until the two cards were a few months from rotating out anyway, and they waited until they could see a marked decrease in tournament attendence at GPs and other major tournaments.
So basically that's what it will take for Ascendency to get banned. The card probably needs to represent a vast majority of the field (which it's not looking like it currently), and it needs to get to the point where people aren't going to tournaments anymore.
1
This is faulty logic though. Because no matter how big the card pool gets, there's always going to be the best cards in the format being played. You look over at Modern, a format in which you have like 10 years of blocks legal in... but at the end of the day the best cards for that format are going to get played. Sphinx's Rev, Pack Rat, Elspeth, Domri, Xenagos, Mutavault aren't even really played in Modern because there are cards that are far better.
I echo what a lot of people are on the board are saying about the lands and the price of standard in general. This was an issue before this change even. And that's just that it's hard to play at a semi-competitive level without being really committed to playing this game money-wise. I got to the point where I was comfortable spending probably 500 dollars a year between FNMs and singles playing Standard and would mostly play the same types of decks and it allowed me to get away with buying fewer staples to build some of these different decks. And it always bothered me that most of the cards I bought would be worth 10% of their current value in a year or two. So it feels like unless you are really into the competitive scene, this is always going to be an issue.
It's a legit complaint IMO. And the solution is to either invest in Modern (probably costs more money up front, but far less over 3-4 years) or play a format like EDH where you can get away with spending far less money and get potentially as much enjoyment out of it.
3
But at the same time, I understand from the profesional play point of view, it kind of sucks when the same 3 decks are basically a big part of the meta for a good 12 months. The format gets figured out after a couple of months, and a new set in April doesn't do enough to fix that.
So yeah, this move is likely going to be awesome for the people that really like the competitive aspect of the format, probably not so stellar for players that just want to casually play tournaments.
1
The one thing that is going to make something really expensive is if it's in a deck that is popular (or in a number of popular archetypes even). Let's take Domri Rade for example:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/Gatecrash/Domri_Rade
If you look back to last year, the card made it's debut as a 20-30 dollar card. Then went down to a 10-15 dollar card presumably as it wasn't seeing play. Then back up to over 25 as Monsters became more and more popular.
Elspeth:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/Theros/Elspeth,_Sun's_Champion
Here's a really good example of what would probably happen if Nissa ended up being good. Elspeth started off as a 30 dollar card. Slowly made it's way down to 20 and is kind of holding steady there. It's still seeing play in white midrange decks as well as control, but only as a 1-2 of.
Liliana of the Veil:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/Innistrad/Liliana_of_the_Veil
Now this is the situation you are probably afraid of. Started out at 20, and basically never dropped in price. It's now about a 70 dollar card. But the main reason for this is it's relevancy in Modern. Nissa I can tell you now will not have that problem. Usually cards that are cheap and useful in multiple situations tend to spike in price because that's the modern format.
In short. I think you are safe waiting. Worst case scenario it only drops 5 bucks after 6 months. But the likelihood is that it'll drop to 20 or even lower after a few months.
1
I can agree with this, but a lot of times it's just a matter of realizing when the game has a high probability of going the control players way and not forcing them to take the extra 20 turns to actually kill me.
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4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
3 Boon of Erebos
Two drops
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
4 Spiteful Returned
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
4 Mogis's Marauder
3 Herald of Torment
2 Agent of Fates
3 Hero's Downfall
17 Swamp
4 Mutavault
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Ultimate Price
1 Doomblade
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
In hindsight, the Doomblade should've been another Bile Blight, because there aren't too many creatures where you want Doomblade over Bile Blight in my deck (Stormbreath Dragon I guess?). I was looking up other recent versions of Mono-black aggro and there was one list that was basically mono-black devotion, but without the devotion cards. But still played Pack Rat, removal and Thoughtseize. I have been liking the version that plays 12 1 drops with 3 Boon of Erebos (maybe should be 4, but the jury is still out on that). The 2 Agent of Fates was the main thing thats different between my list and the one I linked a bunch of posts ago. I happened to have the card and wanted to try it, so it went in as a 2 of.
51 people showed up, which meant 6 rounds, cut to top 8.
Match one against... UWR?
Game 1 I mull to 6 and he mulls to 5 and he chose to go first. He plays a UW Temple and passes the turn. Ok, so I'm probably against UW/x control. I play a one of my three 1-drops. Figure that if I'm against control, the main thing is to not over extend. I could bestow one of the 1-drops and make Supreme Verdict less effective. Turn 2 he plays a Sacred Foundry. Ok... so he's UW/r control it looks like. I play another dude and pass the turn. Turn 3 he plays a mountain and Rageblood Shaman. I saw the 1RR mana-cost and assumed it was a Prophetic Flamespeaker and that this was some janky tempo deck. I'm not going to lie... I played this guy 2 games and I still don't know what his deck does. It was some spells that could trigger Heroic, Artisan of Forms, some other Minotaurs. I was able to crush the deck with my removal spells and evasion both games.
1-0 (2-0)
Match two against UW?
My opponent gets deck checked before the 2nd round. Recieves a game loss because he registered his deck wrong. So I got a free game 1 win. We go to game 2. Turn 1 he plays a UW Temple and at this point I wanna say it's UW control again... but after last match I'm a little hesitant to make the call. I play a 1 drop and pass. Next turn I play Spitefull Returned, which he Deicides. Ok, so it's looking more and more like UW control. And it became more and more obvious that this was the version without enchantments playing more maindeck removal spells. It hurts a little that some of my creatures are enchantments and that turns on those spells for him. It seemed like he was maindecking 2. It would've been an easy victory but my hand was very removal heavy, so I was playing with 2 dead cards in my hand. I get him down to 3, he plays Sphinx's Rev, then Aetherling and the game ended quickly after that. We go to the final game, I side out my removal and side in disruption. I remember looking at the typical UW sideboard and saw that some people were playing Fiendslayer Paladin to try and combat the new mono-red deck. That card also is really good against me and I was hoping he was playing Archangel of Thune sideboard instead. Sadly that wasn't the case, and turn 3 Fiendslayer happened. Followed by Jace. The sad thing about this game was, there were multiple spots where I could've drawn a bestow creature and blown this game apart. All I could do was poke at Jace with my 2/3 Thrill-Kill Assassin. So I was drawing blanks, but fortunately so was he. I got him all the way down to 3 before he could Rev for 6. I remember the game being back and forth. I forced him to Planar Cleansing the board. And my discard spells were able to make it hard for him to stabilize. He actually got there by chaining a few Sphinx's and draining me down with the Extort from Blind Obedience
1-1 (3-2)
At this point I'm a little sad that I technically haven't beaten a real deck. But I would consider that version of UW to be a pretty bad matchup for me so maybe it's not all bad.
Match three against Blue Devotion
Game 1 Master of Waves + no Removal = dead
Game 2 I play a bunch of small creatures. He stabilizes with his 1/4 Frostburns a little. Then I start bestowing and swinging at him with bigger things. He turns that guy into a frog. I eventually draw Herald of Torment and Bestow it. I can either Bestow onto the 3/3 green Frog or the 2/2 Mogis Marauder. I choose the 3/3 frog, and then immediately he proceeds to topdeck Tidebinder Mage and punish me. Fortunately I was way too far ahead to lose the game because of it. I draw removal and win 2 turns later.
Game 3 I hit him with Marauder swings twice.
2-1 (5-3)
Match four against Mono Black Devotion
Game 1 of this match reminded me of that scene from The Matrix where they try to save Morpheus and they walk in that military building. They walk through the metal detector and it beeps and the guard casually asks "Are you carrying any loose change or.." and then Neo interrupts him by revealing all the guns he's hiding in his jacket. I won the die roll, played a Cackler. He plays Thoughtseize and sees my 4 1 drops (1 of them being Boon of Erebos). The game ends with a concession 2 turns later. Sometimes you just have it.
Game 2 he plays Pack Rat and Mutavault (et tu, Pack Rat?). I'm very familiar with how good the card is against aggro. And being on the play he could just race me. My deck wasn't fast enough to beat it, and I drew no removal spells.
Game 3 My opening hand was 3 Swamp, Whip of Erebos, Agent of Fates, Herald of Torment, Hero's Downfall. No 1 or 2 drops, but it has my silver bullet card against mono-black in Whip. I've gotten myself into crazy situations against mono-black devotion before that I was able to pull out because of Whip. But at the same time, the lack of pressure made it a very questionable keep. I looked over to the side and see me from the future trying to give me a signal of some kind. First he held up 1 finger. Then pointed to his head. Then made a grasping motion with both hands. I didn't get what he was trying to tell me. So I kept the hand and played a swamp and said go. He played a swamp and cast Through Seize. Suddenly I realized that in fact that was a horrible keep. He grabs Whip of Erebos, and my hand suddenly becomes horrible. I definitely should've mulled to 6. The game wasn't technically over, but I wasn't putting pressure on him and eventually he just played cards that on average were better than mine. After he won the match we talked about how badly I just messed up.
2-2 (6-5)
At this point I'm wanting to drop. My round 4 opponent talks me out of it saying I might sneak into the top 8 if I win out. I had a feeling he was really trying to get me to stay for tiebreaker purposes, but I figured I would lose next round and then I could go.
Match five against Karttik playing Jund Monsters
I was matched up against someone that I played against 2 nights ago in a standard tournament at my LGS. He's actually a good player from what I can tell. I beat him in our match at the game store when the prize was 30 dollars in store credit for making the top 4. Despite me beating him in the first round, he also made the top 4 in that tournament.
So we shuffle up. He wins the die roll and goes first. I play a T1 dude, he follows it up with Sylvan Caryatid. I swing with my 2/1. He doesn't block because he knows about Boon of Erebos. He plays a second Caryatid, and then turn 4 plays a Stormbreath Dragon and swings (misplay?). He gets two swings in with it. Eventually I was able to swing with 5 dudes. He blocks with 1 of his Caryatids, I hit him with Boon of Erebos for the final 2 damage.
I forgot how I normally sideboard against GR/x decks. I knew that the 2 removal spells and 3 Lifebanes were probably a good place to start, but I didn't know what to take out. I tried taking out Herald of Torment. Figuring that if I"m adding 3 drops I should take out 3 drops and that was the weakest of the ones I had. The 2 Bile Blights left as well.
Game 2 I keep a hand with 4 Deathtouch creatures (2 Agents, 2 Assassins) and some removal... and 1 land. Risky keep, but deathtouch is really good against their 2/4s and 5/5s and 0/3s. He mulled to 6 and apparently kept a mediocre hand. It had acceleration and Domri. I was able to Heros Downfall that away, but he didn't have gas after that.
3-2 (8-6)
Match six against GR Monsters
Game 1 I lose the die roll. And find myself up against Courser of Kruphix, Domri and 2 Xenagos. Boon of Erebos does a lot of work getting damage on the planeswalkers. I was able to get rid of all the creatures, but then he overloaded Mizzium Mortars, put another 2/2 haste Saytr into play and I just couldn't catch up after that.
Game 2 I mull a 4 land hand. He mulls as well. My 6 cards were solid. I start out with some dudes and Lifebane Zombie. He starts out with Caryatid and Xenagos. Lifebane reveals 3 Skylashers (the 2/2 flash guys) and 2 more Caryatids (wow what a bad hand). I win shortly after.
Game 3 was back and forth. He didn't play any of his big card advantage generating spells other than one Courser which was short lived. He hit me with Anger of the Gods. I reloaded and put more pressure with Agent of the Fates and Rackdos Cackler. He stabilized with a hardcast Ghor-Clan Rampager. I had a Bestow creature that would trigger Heroic on Agent and clear his 1 blocker. But the turn before he plays Sessian Tactics making his Rampager and my Agent fight. For a second I thought that the card gave his guy indestructible as well. But when he informed me it didn't I reminded him that Agent of Fates had deathtouch. Ghor-Clan died as well, and he didn't have a follow up to my Bestowed Cackler.
4-2 (10-7)
I ended up getting 14th place. Not bad. I'm not exactly a veteran of these competitive REL tournaments, so I consider winning more than I lose to be a positive. But that bad keep in match 4 is going to haunt me for the next few weeks. I think I'm going to put an effort into going to more of these events too. There's another Standard tournament a month from now in Baton Rouge, LA. It would give me an excuse to visit my parents.
I ended up really liking how this deck played in this kind of environment. I'm not going to claim that it's the best deck in the format, but it has a game plan against a lot of the good decks. I do worry about the UW matchup especially if Fiendslayer Paladin becomes a thing because that's a card I can't beat. If that happens then I'm just going to switch back to my BW midrange deck.
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