Does anyone have any super secret tech against Thopter Depths short of a 15 card sideboard plan? It seems to be everywhere in my meta and if possible I would like to continue playing this deck, but having such a bad matchup against Thopter Depths is making me think otherwise.
Thoughts on the Worldwake spoiled Lodestone Golem?
Advantages:
- On the play is always going to Time Walk your opponent barring a Chrome Mox
- Costs only 4 mana so can get him out easier turn 1, and more chance to play a Chalice/Moon the same turn (Chalice for 1 is going to protect him AND slow your opponent down another turn)
Disadvantages:
- Dies to Bolt/Helix in addition to Path, and even can have trouble against Nacatl's on the draw
- Artifact Creature
Would consider replacing Demigod as I think Deus is better and goes with the mana denial theme.
I used to play Magnivore pre-rotation but haven't really picked up the deck until now. I analysed the 10 decks that made Top 10 of States and noticed a few things:
The core of the decks are usually:
3x-4x Magnivore
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Boomerang
4x Compulsive Research
4x Stone Rain
3x Pyroclasm
3x Wildfire
22-24 Land (w/ or w/out Karoos)
Ok, so we all knew that anyway. Here's the spots that are up for grabs:
3x-4x Demolish or 3x-4x Avalanche Riders or 3x-4x Cryoclasm (or Icefall) as 2nd choice LD
4x Remand or 4x Mana Leak (or Rune Snag) as counter-base
3x Ancestral Visions or 2x Tidings as the additional draw engine
Other cards that were randomly played maindeck in a couple lists that are noteable:
Volcanic Hammer (or Rift Bolt)
Repeal
So I will pose some questions to get some discussion going, starting with:
Is 3 or 4 Magnivore correct? 7 lists played 3, and 3 lists played 4. Typically in the past 3 was the correct number, but I might actually be in favour of 4 at the moment. Being able to drop one early against control when they tap out for Compulsive Research or Signets (or mess around with Karoos) can be great against control if you follow up with a Wildfire soon after.
Manabase: Is the magic number 22, 23, 24? Karoos or no? I have to admit, I must be the worst manabase designer I know, and i've changed these values more often that I would like. Would like peoples opinions on this aspect especially as the manabase is often the most overlooked aspect of a deck.
2nd LD package: Demolish vs Avalanche Riders vs Cryoclasm (vs Icefall). [4 lists played Demolish, 3 played Avalanche Riders, 2 played Cryoclasm] Firstly let me mention the Icefall - isn't this just better (I won't say strictly) that Demolish? Especially if you are leaning in the direction of 4 Magnivore the RR mana on turn 4 shouldn't be a big deal to get, I mean you have to hit 3 Islands which is pretty unlikely. Anyway, I keep going back and forth on this slot. We have a Sorcery that fuels the engine and can hit both Lands and Signets for 4 mana, we have a hasty creature for 4 mana that blows up Lands upon arrivals and can either deal 2 damage or potentially save you some life, and I think my favourite Cryoclasm for 3 mana that nukes the very much hated Plains/Islands and bolts to the head.
Counterbase: Remand vs Mana Leak (vs Rune Snag) [7 lists played Remand, 5 played Mana Leak and 2 played Rune Snag]. So this is tricky then, although the Leaks didn't always run a playset, there are effectively the same amount of decks. I don't think I can say one way or another which is better, I like the fact Remand digs you through your deck while keeping early stuff off the board. Personal preference I guess?
Draw spells: Ancestral Vision vs Tidings. [3 lists played Ancestral Vision (interestingly the 2 winners), 6 played Tidings] So we have the new kid on the block Ancestral that has yet to find a home against old faithful Tidings. My general feeling about this slot I believe depends on what LD suite you run. Tidings is just awesome when you get the curve of Boomerang, Stone Rain, Demolish/Riders, Tidings, Wildfire, but does this happen enough? How often is Tidings slowing you down since you want to cast it before Wildfire, and how many times can't you cast it after you Wildfire? This is where I really like Visions, obviously it is a fairly insane turn 1 play when we lack the Sleight, but generally I find turn 4 can be useful as well if you combine with Stone Rain/Cryoclasm/Compulsive Research and with your last blue mana have another go at Sleight or suspend Visions. This means Visions will resolve on turn 8, which can be awkward if you Wildfire turn 6 and have nothing next turn, but is pretty stellar if you Wildfire turn 7. This also allows you to Wildfire turn 8 and have counter mana open, or even bait out a Boomerang for a counter or to remove something from the board you don't want coming back.
Side note: I think I am the world's biggest lover of Repeal, and would love more than anything to squeeze it in.
OK, I believe that is going to be long enough - perhaps too long - but I wanted to get a bit more in depth discussion going about these aspects of the deck!
Good to see some action finally happening in the FCG thread! Now i'm no expert at the deck, but I have played it at a fair amount of tournaments, so i'll try and address this issue.
I guess the first and most common response is that it will be a "win more" scenario. What's the really difference if you combo out on that turn, or wait until next turn to go nuts? I guess if you are on the play against a deck playing Mana Drain, you can combo out before they get UU up, but I don't really see another advantage of running these.
Basically, there are better options to run. They do close to nothing on their own (one shot mana, or a pinger that is sometimes good against Welder), and therefore only contribute to the combo side. You must remember, Food Chain Goblins is an aggro deck first, and then a combo deck. Sure if you have a combo starting hand the correct play almost all the time is go for the combo, but you have to ask yourself if that is the best option. I know I would much prefer to see something like Goblin Vandal over Skirk Prospector in my opening hand, and I wouldn't be that happy seing a 3CMC Goblin that isn't Warchief or Matron.
They are also almost never useful to tutor for individually, unless you are staring at more than one Welder (or against random aggro decks). The only Goblins that are run less than 4 of normally are Kiki-Jiki and SGC, mainly because if you drop them off a turn 2 Lackey then broken stuff tends to happen (whereas you HAVE to have a Food Chain in hand/play if you want to drop a Recruiter). I just don't see Prospector / Sharpshooter being useful in their own right towards the game plan, apart from the ability to have a slim chance of being able to combo off after the attack step.
In any case, as a player of FCG I find the maindeck extremely tight as is. There's only a select few spots that are up for grabs, and I choose to run Goblin Vandal (as disruption) in most of them.
P.S. Let's hope this gets some discussion going again about FCG, because i'm looking to improve my performances with the deck!
Did you have WW mana open to play the kicker on Chant when you needed to? I myself haven't played with this card, and am very interested to see how versatile it was during Waterbury.
I wasn't suggesting Kataki as a replacement for Null Rod, merely a complement. He can play both the aggro role and the prison role to a degree, and even more so combined with a Null Rod. He also turns yours Moxen into Threshhold food if required. He just seems the perfect fit for the deck, as he is basically one sided most likely since you don't need artifact mana as much as your opponent.
You say that you would throw in ESG next, but don't run Black Lotus (or Lotus Petal). Is this because you don't want them to be dead if you have a Null Rod out? Or is it a preventative measure against Welder decks to save your Null Rod?
I probably agree with the Suppression Field argument, you would have to warp the deck too much to fit it in, to the extent you are almost building the deck around it...and as Standstill showed us, this doesn't really work.
I too am starting to see the light, I have mostly been playing UW Fish and WTF, and have finally realised that they just don't do enough. Why play suboptimal creatures when you can bash with an untargetable 3/3, and also have more room in the deck for disruption.
I'll just throw up a few ideas in regards to the deck, just to get some other conversation going.
Abeyance (vs Orim's Chant) - how often did you guys find you were playing the kicker on Orim's Chant? the cantrip affect of Abeyance is definately a bonus, and it does stop the most troublesome instants/sorceries/counters for a slightly more expensive cost. Did you guys try this at all in the spot of Orim's Chant?
Kataki, War's Wage - did you consider this guy as maindeck material? He's been showing his head in Fish lately...is he worth including for his Null Rod-esque ability, and the ability to provide a mini-combo with Null Rod? He does also beat for 2...
Wild Mongrel / Ninja of the Deep Hours - other creatures options, Mongrel can help fuel the Threshhold early if necessary while beating face, and Ninja can take advantage of that first turn Mongoose that doesn't have threshhold yet. Did you get to test out any other creatures besides the base 3 that were used?
Mental Note - I think everyone has decided that this doesn't belong anymore, even as a cantrip that helps fuel Threshhold, you end up blaming games on the stuff that you dump off the top of your library for little benefit.
Suppression Field - looking at the deck, apart from Wastelands and fetchlands, this doesn't hurt at all. I understand Wastes play an integral part in the deck, and fetchlands help with the 3 colour manabase, but from what I have been reading you guys love Stifle and this can almost act as a permanent Stifle...i'm not indicating to play it, but it might warrant a test or two?
I think you just highly contradicted yourself in your argument over Birds of Paradise. It's true they are in the deck for acceleration, but it's more important for there mana fixing ability. You want to drop that Cutpurse or Hyppie turn 2, and leading with Forest -> Llanowar Elf just isn't going to do that for you. The BoP can't swing with a Jitte true, but it has some sort of evasion to be useful late-game as a ninjitsu target.
I don't generally like one-of's either, as you can't rely on drawing it in any one game. I also tend to favour Meloku in the main if I was going to run a legend.
I whacked together something similar to this the other day, so imagine my surprise when I came accross an existing forum for some advice!
I guess the main question is over Dark Confidant - I really really extremely like him, but with the pain incurred from the manabase and Elves, I'm just not sure if he can be included. Flipping over a Ninja is very painful indeed, and it seems like these 2 are fighting for the same spot in the deck.
Apart from that, the creature base has pretty much been decided on:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Elves of Deep Shadow
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dimir Cutpurse
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
The other creature that might be worth running is Dimir Infiltrator, both for his evasion and his tutor ability. Seeing as this deck skips the 2-drop most of the time, he doesn't fit all that well though...
The real dispute is probably which spells to run in the deck, whether they be counters, removal or pumping. I use the following and are open for thoughts:
4x Umezawa's Jitte (this is a given)
4x Mana Leak (best costed counterspell)
4x Last Gasp (quick and cheap removal)
3x Remand (can be very useful early on as a psuedo-time walk)
3x Putrefy (only a 3-off because of a kinda tricky CC, 4th in the board)
Also, 22 lands seems to be the concensus for the manabase so lets go with that. I know I use Tendo Ice Bridge, but it doesn't look like many others do. I find it's very good for colour fixing on the first few turns, and late game is normally only used for the colourless anyway.
Sideboard options could include:
Threads of Disloyalty (as mentioned before)
Cranial Extraction
Pithing Needle
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Does Time of Need really belong in this deck? What would be the correct number of the legends (Kodama, Meloku, Keiga) if you didn't run it, and what would be the correct number if you did?
Also, i've been having the same problem with the counterbase as many of you it seems. I just can't seem to figure out which is more appropriate for the deck, Remand and Leak really help early on because of their easier CC, but Hinder is the only real option for a late game counter but has a tricker cost involved. Is the correct number a 4/3 of these counters, or playsets of both (whichever you decide to run)?
After reading Rizzo's article on SCG, I also became very interested in this deck and was glad to see a thread on it!
What do you guys think of Wild Mongrel (over Zombie Infestation) as a discard outlet? I love to go turn one Mongrel off a Mox, and start the early beats. He is also great with Life from the Loam, but I guess Zombie Infestation can be just as broken.
What about playing the blue accelerants such as Careful Study and/or Mental Note? I have found these extremely helpful, Study optimizing your hand and dumping in your grave, and Note is just great when you hit a dredge creature on your flip and then dredge him up off the draw.
Also, does Circular Logic has a place in this deck?
P.S. Is Kavu Predator horrible?
Advantages:
- On the play is always going to Time Walk your opponent barring a Chrome Mox
- Costs only 4 mana so can get him out easier turn 1, and more chance to play a Chalice/Moon the same turn (Chalice for 1 is going to protect him AND slow your opponent down another turn)
Disadvantages:
- Dies to Bolt/Helix in addition to Path, and even can have trouble against Nacatl's on the draw
- Artifact Creature
Would consider replacing Demigod as I think Deus is better and goes with the mana denial theme.
I used to play Magnivore pre-rotation but haven't really picked up the deck until now. I analysed the 10 decks that made Top 10 of States and noticed a few things:
The core of the decks are usually:
3x-4x Magnivore
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Boomerang
4x Compulsive Research
4x Stone Rain
3x Pyroclasm
3x Wildfire
22-24 Land (w/ or w/out Karoos)
Ok, so we all knew that anyway. Here's the spots that are up for grabs:
3x-4x Demolish or 3x-4x Avalanche Riders or 3x-4x Cryoclasm (or Icefall) as 2nd choice LD
4x Remand or 4x Mana Leak (or Rune Snag) as counter-base
3x Ancestral Visions or 2x Tidings as the additional draw engine
Other cards that were randomly played maindeck in a couple lists that are noteable:
Volcanic Hammer (or Rift Bolt)
Repeal
So I will pose some questions to get some discussion going, starting with:
Is 3 or 4 Magnivore correct? 7 lists played 3, and 3 lists played 4. Typically in the past 3 was the correct number, but I might actually be in favour of 4 at the moment. Being able to drop one early against control when they tap out for Compulsive Research or Signets (or mess around with Karoos) can be great against control if you follow up with a Wildfire soon after.
Manabase: Is the magic number 22, 23, 24? Karoos or no? I have to admit, I must be the worst manabase designer I know, and i've changed these values more often that I would like. Would like peoples opinions on this aspect especially as the manabase is often the most overlooked aspect of a deck.
2nd LD package: Demolish vs Avalanche Riders vs Cryoclasm (vs Icefall). [4 lists played Demolish, 3 played Avalanche Riders, 2 played Cryoclasm] Firstly let me mention the Icefall - isn't this just better (I won't say strictly) that Demolish? Especially if you are leaning in the direction of 4 Magnivore the RR mana on turn 4 shouldn't be a big deal to get, I mean you have to hit 3 Islands which is pretty unlikely. Anyway, I keep going back and forth on this slot. We have a Sorcery that fuels the engine and can hit both Lands and Signets for 4 mana, we have a hasty creature for 4 mana that blows up Lands upon arrivals and can either deal 2 damage or potentially save you some life, and I think my favourite Cryoclasm for 3 mana that nukes the very much hated Plains/Islands and bolts to the head.
Counterbase: Remand vs Mana Leak (vs Rune Snag) [7 lists played Remand, 5 played Mana Leak and 2 played Rune Snag]. So this is tricky then, although the Leaks didn't always run a playset, there are effectively the same amount of decks. I don't think I can say one way or another which is better, I like the fact Remand digs you through your deck while keeping early stuff off the board. Personal preference I guess?
Draw spells: Ancestral Vision vs Tidings. [3 lists played Ancestral Vision (interestingly the 2 winners), 6 played Tidings] So we have the new kid on the block Ancestral that has yet to find a home against old faithful Tidings. My general feeling about this slot I believe depends on what LD suite you run. Tidings is just awesome when you get the curve of Boomerang, Stone Rain, Demolish/Riders, Tidings, Wildfire, but does this happen enough? How often is Tidings slowing you down since you want to cast it before Wildfire, and how many times can't you cast it after you Wildfire? This is where I really like Visions, obviously it is a fairly insane turn 1 play when we lack the Sleight, but generally I find turn 4 can be useful as well if you combine with Stone Rain/Cryoclasm/Compulsive Research and with your last blue mana have another go at Sleight or suspend Visions. This means Visions will resolve on turn 8, which can be awkward if you Wildfire turn 6 and have nothing next turn, but is pretty stellar if you Wildfire turn 7. This also allows you to Wildfire turn 8 and have counter mana open, or even bait out a Boomerang for a counter or to remove something from the board you don't want coming back.
Side note: I think I am the world's biggest lover of Repeal, and would love more than anything to squeeze it in.
OK, I believe that is going to be long enough - perhaps too long - but I wanted to get a bit more in depth discussion going about these aspects of the deck!
I guess the first and most common response is that it will be a "win more" scenario. What's the really difference if you combo out on that turn, or wait until next turn to go nuts? I guess if you are on the play against a deck playing Mana Drain, you can combo out before they get UU up, but I don't really see another advantage of running these.
Basically, there are better options to run. They do close to nothing on their own (one shot mana, or a pinger that is sometimes good against Welder), and therefore only contribute to the combo side. You must remember, Food Chain Goblins is an aggro deck first, and then a combo deck. Sure if you have a combo starting hand the correct play almost all the time is go for the combo, but you have to ask yourself if that is the best option. I know I would much prefer to see something like Goblin Vandal over Skirk Prospector in my opening hand, and I wouldn't be that happy seing a 3CMC Goblin that isn't Warchief or Matron.
They are also almost never useful to tutor for individually, unless you are staring at more than one Welder (or against random aggro decks). The only Goblins that are run less than 4 of normally are Kiki-Jiki and SGC, mainly because if you drop them off a turn 2 Lackey then broken stuff tends to happen (whereas you HAVE to have a Food Chain in hand/play if you want to drop a Recruiter). I just don't see Prospector / Sharpshooter being useful in their own right towards the game plan, apart from the ability to have a slim chance of being able to combo off after the attack step.
In any case, as a player of FCG I find the maindeck extremely tight as is. There's only a select few spots that are up for grabs, and I choose to run Goblin Vandal (as disruption) in most of them.
P.S. Let's hope this gets some discussion going again about FCG, because i'm looking to improve my performances with the deck!
I wasn't suggesting Kataki as a replacement for Null Rod, merely a complement. He can play both the aggro role and the prison role to a degree, and even more so combined with a Null Rod. He also turns yours Moxen into Threshhold food if required. He just seems the perfect fit for the deck, as he is basically one sided most likely since you don't need artifact mana as much as your opponent.
You say that you would throw in ESG next, but don't run Black Lotus (or Lotus Petal). Is this because you don't want them to be dead if you have a Null Rod out? Or is it a preventative measure against Welder decks to save your Null Rod?
I probably agree with the Suppression Field argument, you would have to warp the deck too much to fit it in, to the extent you are almost building the deck around it...and as Standstill showed us, this doesn't really work.
I too am starting to see the light, I have mostly been playing UW Fish and WTF, and have finally realised that they just don't do enough. Why play suboptimal creatures when you can bash with an untargetable 3/3, and also have more room in the deck for disruption.
Thanks for the quick reply, BTW.
Abeyance (vs Orim's Chant) - how often did you guys find you were playing the kicker on Orim's Chant? the cantrip affect of Abeyance is definately a bonus, and it does stop the most troublesome instants/sorceries/counters for a slightly more expensive cost. Did you guys try this at all in the spot of Orim's Chant?
Kataki, War's Wage - did you consider this guy as maindeck material? He's been showing his head in Fish lately...is he worth including for his Null Rod-esque ability, and the ability to provide a mini-combo with Null Rod? He does also beat for 2...
Wild Mongrel / Ninja of the Deep Hours - other creatures options, Mongrel can help fuel the Threshhold early if necessary while beating face, and Ninja can take advantage of that first turn Mongoose that doesn't have threshhold yet. Did you get to test out any other creatures besides the base 3 that were used?
Mental Note - I think everyone has decided that this doesn't belong anymore, even as a cantrip that helps fuel Threshhold, you end up blaming games on the stuff that you dump off the top of your library for little benefit.
Suppression Field - looking at the deck, apart from Wastelands and fetchlands, this doesn't hurt at all. I understand Wastes play an integral part in the deck, and fetchlands help with the 3 colour manabase, but from what I have been reading you guys love Stifle and this can almost act as a permanent Stifle...i'm not indicating to play it, but it might warrant a test or two?
I don't generally like one-of's either, as you can't rely on drawing it in any one game. I also tend to favour Meloku in the main if I was going to run a legend.
I guess the main question is over Dark Confidant - I really really extremely like him, but with the pain incurred from the manabase and Elves, I'm just not sure if he can be included. Flipping over a Ninja is very painful indeed, and it seems like these 2 are fighting for the same spot in the deck.
Apart from that, the creature base has pretty much been decided on:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Elves of Deep Shadow
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dimir Cutpurse
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
The other creature that might be worth running is Dimir Infiltrator, both for his evasion and his tutor ability. Seeing as this deck skips the 2-drop most of the time, he doesn't fit all that well though...
The real dispute is probably which spells to run in the deck, whether they be counters, removal or pumping. I use the following and are open for thoughts:
4x Umezawa's Jitte (this is a given)
4x Mana Leak (best costed counterspell)
4x Last Gasp (quick and cheap removal)
3x Remand (can be very useful early on as a psuedo-time walk)
3x Putrefy (only a 3-off because of a kinda tricky CC, 4th in the board)
Also, 22 lands seems to be the concensus for the manabase so lets go with that. I know I use Tendo Ice Bridge, but it doesn't look like many others do. I find it's very good for colour fixing on the first few turns, and late game is normally only used for the colourless anyway.
Sideboard options could include:
Threads of Disloyalty (as mentioned before)
Cranial Extraction
Pithing Needle
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Thoughts and opinions?
Also, i've been having the same problem with the counterbase as many of you it seems. I just can't seem to figure out which is more appropriate for the deck, Remand and Leak really help early on because of their easier CC, but Hinder is the only real option for a late game counter but has a tricker cost involved. Is the correct number a 4/3 of these counters, or playsets of both (whichever you decide to run)?
What do you guys think of Wild Mongrel (over Zombie Infestation) as a discard outlet? I love to go turn one Mongrel off a Mox, and start the early beats. He is also great with Life from the Loam, but I guess Zombie Infestation can be just as broken.
What about playing the blue accelerants such as Careful Study and/or Mental Note? I have found these extremely helpful, Study optimizing your hand and dumping in your grave, and Note is just great when you hit a dredge creature on your flip and then dredge him up off the draw.
Also, does Circular Logic has a place in this deck?