Hmm... so, in all of you's opinions, what is the best combo for Ooze? Since if we're designing an Ooze deck to the maximum competitiveness it can withhold, a "seal-the-deal" combo that can immediately end a game, like Parmaha said could be our starting point. I think at this point, we've whittled it down to a few combos to work off of. Here's a short list:
This is just a short list and definitely not all of the possibilities. Basing off of the above list, though, the "combos" that really sticks out to me are both Ætherling/Thornling and/or Griselbrand and Borborygmos Enraged. With the -ling creatures, they don't even need Ooze to be good. They're both win conditions by themselves, and they curve out nicely too. What do you guys think?
In addition to the combo, we should hone in on various good cards that don't have to do with the combo. For example, I really like Golgari Brownscale for the deck as a whole. It can block on the ground for a long time, is great Troll food, gives us a nice cushion against Affinity and Burn, combos with Vengeful Pharaoh and gives us the possibility of more than 2 "Griselbrand" activations. With a lot of creatures, Sidisi, Brood Tyrant seems like it would be good here too. Plus, it "combos" with Golgari Brownscale. Thoughts? Also, do we have enough to compile a list of spells that would benefit the deck, like Soul Spike (thanks i_am_outerspace) and the like?
BTW thanks for keeping this alive, I really appreciate it! This deck can be a thing!!!!!!! Let's make it work!
Ooh, theroguewriter, I like it! Mindshrieker could be good with the infinite mana combo of Devoted Druid + Morselhoarder. Oona, Queen of the Fae like you mentioned too. Ætherling seems great here too. That with Ooze is basically gg on its own. I'm still stuck on Civilized Scholar as an engine for the deck, too. Maybe a combination of a whole bunch of these decks? Like a lot of 1-ofs to fuel the Ooze that are also good on their own? Could be good. And if the Ooze plan doesn't work, then maybe it could be a Gifts Ungiven deck with the Unburial Rites + whatever fatty with good activated abilities you like combo in it.
Thoughts? Any concept deck ideas (in addition to the much appreciated already-shared lists (Thanks a bunch everyone ))? How good is Vengeful Pharaoh in an Ooze deck? Life from the Loam?
This type of build feels too Dredgevine to me. I hate to be such a naysayer, but Necrotic Ooze really isnt even that good in this build right here, vengevine would be way better in something like this.
I suppose. The lack of a combo may be detrimental. Just seemed fun to blow through the entire deck in one sitting and bring back a bunch of 2/1s. But yes, I would say that Vengevine would be better, but at that point just play Dredgevine. Thanks for the quick feedback
Okay, everyone. Here's a thought: What if it were a value-Ooze deck rather than a combo-Ooze deck. By combo-Ooze, I'm referring to an insta-win or close to an insta-win deck, like Bobo and Grizzy or Druid and Hoarder. Like maybe a Dredgevine-Zombardment Ooze deck with the core combo being Civilized Scholar (thank you Parmaha, I completely forgot about this gem) + Necrotic Ooze and Dredge? The starting point could be:
Darkblast could be included in the Dredge suite as well, but would probably be a SB card. Then, we could fill up on some "unkillables" for value out of the Ooze:
This is a rough start. Sidisi is good here since she can almost guaranteed hit every time she swings/ETBs. Plus there's the synergy with her and the Champion. That's always nice. Of course, a SB is in the works, some thoughts on that would be nice too. Anyways, just a thought, maybe it'll work/be better than the combo-Ooze decks. Thoughts?
b) (this is a bit more minor, but) The combo pieces look inconspicuous. If the opponent knows the shenanigans, then oh well. But for someone whose never seen the deck, the combo looks like simple jank.
Good reasons? Debatable, but it works and is fairly efficient. The only downside is it's a 3-card combo as opposed to a 2-card combo with Griselbrand. But that's why over 1/3 of the deck is dedicated to digging and putting things into the yard. Plus, the U version has Gifts Ungiven to dump whatever 2 cards you need to combo out. Goryo's Vengeance is a nice card too, and, as muodoka mentioned, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn would be pretty sweet here too. But, if you can land a spaghetti-monster, its basically GG. Great suggestions through and through. I really appreciate it!
I'm not sure what creature you're talking about. A quick search on Gatherer for "deals to each opponent" found nothing significant. Are you referring to Scholar of Athreos? That's untargeted life-loss. And the only one of its variety too.
This deck should definitely have some Hour of Need to power out some sphinxes from your dorks. That's a wombo combo with the 'turge. Also, if you run Jace's Phantasm, you should think about Archive Trap too. With the scary delve spells out of Modern, this card could really shine. It turns on the phantasm immediately, which is a huge +++. I could see Delver of Secrets making an appearance here too, granted you run enough instants/sorceries.
I really like this deck. How does it play? Seems super fun!
So, my $0.02. I'm not sure how good Artificer's Intuition is here. While, yes it can tutor for a third of the deck, what's the best you can search for? Elixir of Immortality? Codex Shredder? I think that giant scissors would be better here. A possible T1 indestructible 5/5 seems really busted. Speaking of the citadel, you could probably add in at least 1 more. You have fixing and digging. Getting to UU shouldn't be too difficult. Maybe you could axe an Island and a fetch? Also, Everflowing Chalice doesn't seems too necessary here, since your curve basically ends at 3. I could see you adding in more Ornithopters. They sac to the Titan and get eaten by the Skaab. Plus, they hold Ensoul Artifact like bosses, not to mention Welding Jar becomes free 5/5 insurance. As much as I hate to say it, Kuldotha Phoenix seems better here than Skaab Ruinator from the GY. But, the Skaab is nice to have from your hand, as opposed to gripping a Phoenix and not hardcasting it. IDK about that last point, but could warrant some testing. Other than that, maybe you'd want to try out an Illusory Angel in place of Trinket Mage? Stubborn Denial could be some sweet SB tech. Hibernation too.
Well, since this is Modern, you could always replace the Elvish Mystics with Birds of Paradise. You could also try out Coiling Oracle. It always nets card advantage, whether ramping for you or basically drawing a card. Plus it becomes a 3/3 with Murkfiend Liege. Polukranos, World Eater is good, but a bit slow. You could sub it with something like Obstinate Baloth, which stabilizes your life total and acts as discard insurance. You could also maybe use some better draw power. Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are both premium card draw spells. Garruk Wildspeaker seems utterly gross. I'd up the number of him and decrease your number of Caller of Beasts. Wildspeaker pulls his weight tenfold: Makes dudes, ramps and is another wincon. I personally would recomend...
Rite of Consumption could be pretty good. I tested the Wall of Blood version and it's pretty risky. One attack from an average Goyf and the combo is instantly dead. I might switch it out for some Quillspikes, to give the Ooze infinite P/T and have a backup wincon in the form of a Spike-Druid combo. I've found out that with all the digging, Ooze combo is pretty consistent. And even if Ooze combo fails, Morselhoarder is a 6/4 and naked Ooze is a 4/3, so a small attack squad isn't entirely out of the question.
Pithing Needle is a problem, of course. But that's what a SB is for. Your comment on Intuition is why I like the U version better than the R version. Gifts Ungiven is a double-Entomb or more, depending on the search. It instantly turns on the combo (with a partial search for Devoted Druid and Morselhoarder). So, Gifts is like a Modern-equivalent of Intuition, but not as cheap manawise. Tasigur, the Golden Fang is a great addition to the deck, as I can float as much mana as I want and use the ability as many times as I please. Plus, the opponent cannot choose Devil's Play to return to my hand, so that's a plus. That's why he's in both of the new versions.
TBH I never knew about that combo before now. I think that would fit better in the Jund shell rather than the Sultai shell. In that case, the Unburial Rites package can come out in place of the full-blown combo. I'll also probably add in a Tasigur, the Golden Fang to the Jund version to initiate the combo. Thank you, Balefire.
Thank you for the input. I don't run Banefire since I can bin and flashback Devil's Play, but not the fire. Niv is another activated ability that is a win-con in addition to being a possible Unburial Rites target. The combo can get started in response to a Bolt, but I see what you mean. Ooze is fragile. I wouldn't be opposed to axing 1 or more colors to trim up the deck, the two major ones being either U or R. Whilst I enjoy faithlessly looting, I also really like the synergies and strategies with the Gifts package. I'll tinker with the thought and post two more lists in the 1st post, one for each cut of a color.
Necrotic Ooze. You may love him, you may hate him, but there's no denying the potential for abuse with this guy. I've always loved Necrotic Ooze (it was one of my first cards I ever owned), and I've always wanted to break it in half. So, I peered through the various combos with the slime and the best two-card infinite combo I saw was...
Simply use the druid's ability to put a -1/-1 counter on the Ooze, then use the hoarder's ability to remove said -1/-1 counter and add a mana of whatever color you want to your mana pool. Infinite mana at instant speed.
But, Modern doesn't have really nice GY tutor effects like Entomb, so how are we gonna efficiently get the combo into the yard? Well... Gifts Ungiven is a nice way to do so, with a partial tutor, of course. Plus, Gifts Ungiven gives us access to a Griselbrand + Unburial Rites package in case the Ooze plan doesn't work out. And of course Griselbrand is great with the Ooze. Throw in a little spice, maybe some amount of hatred, and we have a deck. This is the current list I'm jamming:
You may notice something big missing... a sideboard!! I don't have a board built, simply because:
a) I'm terrible at making sideboards
b) I don't really know what to put in
That's a major thing that I need YOUR help with, in addition to making various tweaks here and there in the deck. Making it more streamlined, possibly for some competitive play? Ooze needs some love, so any and all input is greatly appreciated! Thank you for looking at this deck! Happy building!
This deck is NOT MINE!! I saw a decklist in a comments section of a CFB article and decided to run with it, since it looked really really cool. Credits to them, not me (Sorry I don't remember your name!!).
I like the concept, but it seems that you're missing some things...
#1: Brainstorm - There isn't any reason to not be running this card. Arguably the best card in U, possibly even Legacy. A full 4 should try to find a way into the deck. You don't want to skimp on these (Ponder falls into the category of Brainstorm as well). Bob doesn't make up for this extra piece of excellence, the digging power in these cantrips is too good to pass up. Bob is good in conjunction with the cantrips.
#2: Daze - Force of Will's little bro. Do not pass this up. A free counter early is great, and don't forget that it can be pitched to Force of Will. It's much better in this format than Remand, since Remand can't counter a thing for good, unlike an early Daze.
#3: Death's Shadow - Hear me out. This could easily see a spot, or even become a cornerstone, in your deck. Bob drains your life, Force of Will drains your life, Fetchlands drain your life as do Shocklands (Watery Grave for straight UB). With this guy flanking your Delver of Secrets on the field, your could run cards like Snuff Out, Dismember and Gitaxian Probe to help the avatar do its thing. Plus, all of the aforementioned spells flip Delver of Secrets.
So, if I were to make edits to the deck, the cards I'd remove (non-number specific) would be:
I like Percy, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit clunky as a 4-drop with no way to fill out the curve at 3. Dark Ritual, in the mid to late game, becomes the deadest of draws for a non-combo deck like this. Victim of Night, as well as Remand and Spell Snare could get some upgrades as well. And Cabal Coffers, while really cool, doesn't really devote too much to your strategy, since there isn't a hujungo thing to use all that B for. It could, along with some Swamps, become more Shocklands or Fetchlands.
Devoted Druid + Morselhoarder
Devoted Druid + Quillspike
Griselbrand + Borborygmos Enraged
Ætherling/Thornling (combos on their own)
Civilized Scholar + a Dredger
"Miser" 1-ofs (Havengul Lich, Pharika, God of Affliction etc.)
This is just a short list and definitely not all of the possibilities. Basing off of the above list, though, the "combos" that really sticks out to me are both Ætherling/Thornling and/or Griselbrand and Borborygmos Enraged. With the -ling creatures, they don't even need Ooze to be good. They're both win conditions by themselves, and they curve out nicely too. What do you guys think?
In addition to the combo, we should hone in on various good cards that don't have to do with the combo. For example, I really like Golgari Brownscale for the deck as a whole. It can block on the ground for a long time, is great Troll food, gives us a nice cushion against Affinity and Burn, combos with Vengeful Pharaoh and gives us the possibility of more than 2 "Griselbrand" activations. With a lot of creatures, Sidisi, Brood Tyrant seems like it would be good here too. Plus, it "combos" with Golgari Brownscale. Thoughts? Also, do we have enough to compile a list of spells that would benefit the deck, like Soul Spike (thanks i_am_outerspace) and the like?
BTW thanks for keeping this alive, I really appreciate it! This deck can be a thing!!!!!!! Let's make it work!
Thoughts? Any concept deck ideas (in addition to the much appreciated already-shared lists (Thanks a bunch everyone ))? How good is Vengeful Pharaoh in an Ooze deck? Life from the Loam?
I suppose. The lack of a combo may be detrimental. Just seemed fun to blow through the entire deck in one sitting and bring back a bunch of 2/1s. But yes, I would say that Vengevine would be better, but at that point just play Dredgevine. Thanks for the quick feedback
Back to the combo then?
4x Civilized Scholar
And from there we could add in some dredge creatures, the best being:
3x Golgari Grave-Troll
Darkblast could be included in the Dredge suite as well, but would probably be a SB card. Then, we could fill up on some "unkillables" for value out of the Ooze:
4x Bloodghast
3x Bloodsoaked Champion
Some other discard/search outlets can help the cause as well:
Throw in some sugar and spice and we have a start to a new Ooze shell: Civilized Ooze
4x Bloodghast
3x Bloodsoaked Champion
4x Civilized Scholar
3x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Gravecrawler
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Necrotic Ooze
2x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Forest
1x Island
3x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
4x Woodland Cemetery
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Gnaw to the Bone
This is a rough start. Sidisi is good here since she can almost guaranteed hit every time she swings/ETBs. Plus there's the synergy with her and the Champion. That's always nice. Of course, a SB is in the works, some thoughts on that would be nice too. Anyways, just a thought, maybe it'll work/be better than the combo-Ooze decks. Thoughts?
i_am_outerspace,
So the reason my main combo is Devoted Druid + Morselhoarder as opposed to Griselbrand + Borborygmos Enraged is:
a) I can have infinite mana at instant speed.
b) (this is a bit more minor, but) The combo pieces look inconspicuous. If the opponent knows the shenanigans, then oh well. But for someone whose never seen the deck, the combo looks like simple jank.
c) It opens the door to other combos, like Devoted Druid + Quillspike.
d) Tasigur, the Golden Fang becomes the best enabler. If I have Devil's Play/Quillspike as my main win conditions, the Khan can't return the sorcery and if it does return a Quillspike, then I can simply flash back a Faithless Looting and put it back.
Good reasons? Debatable, but it works and is fairly efficient. The only downside is it's a 3-card combo as opposed to a 2-card combo with Griselbrand. But that's why over 1/3 of the deck is dedicated to digging and putting things into the yard. Plus, the U version has Gifts Ungiven to dump whatever 2 cards you need to combo out. Goryo's Vengeance is a nice card too, and, as muodoka mentioned, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn would be pretty sweet here too. But, if you can land a spaghetti-monster, its basically GG. Great suggestions through and through. I really appreciate it!
Talionis,
I'm not sure what creature you're talking about. A quick search on Gatherer for "deals to each opponent" found nothing significant. Are you referring to Scholar of Athreos? That's untargeted life-loss. And the only one of its variety too.
I really like this deck. How does it play? Seems super fun!
So, my $0.02. I'm not sure how good Artificer's Intuition is here. While, yes it can tutor for a third of the deck, what's the best you can search for? Elixir of Immortality? Codex Shredder? I think that giant scissors would be better here. A possible T1 indestructible 5/5 seems really busted. Speaking of the citadel, you could probably add in at least 1 more. You have fixing and digging. Getting to UU shouldn't be too difficult. Maybe you could axe an Island and a fetch? Also, Everflowing Chalice doesn't seems too necessary here, since your curve basically ends at 3. I could see you adding in more Ornithopters. They sac to the Titan and get eaten by the Skaab. Plus, they hold Ensoul Artifact like bosses, not to mention Welding Jar becomes free 5/5 insurance. As much as I hate to say it, Kuldotha Phoenix seems better here than Skaab Ruinator from the GY. But, the Skaab is nice to have from your hand, as opposed to gripping a Phoenix and not hardcasting it. IDK about that last point, but could warrant some testing. Other than that, maybe you'd want to try out an Illusory Angel in place of Trinket Mage? Stubborn Denial could be some sweet SB tech. Hibernation too.
-4x Elvish Mystic for +4x Birds of Paradise
-3x Polukranos, World Eater for +3x Obstinate Baloth
-1x Deadbridge Goliath for +1x Obstinate Baloth or +1x Polukranos, World Eater
-4x Gyre Sage for +4x Coiling Oracle
-1x Garruk, Caller of Beasts for +1x Garruk Wildspeaker
-1x Garruk, Caller of Beasts, -1x Bow of Nylea and -1x Simic Charm for +3x Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand (to make room for the 4th draw spell, you could: -1x Cyclonic Rift for +1x Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand)
This isn't an end-all be-all list, just my suggestions. You can tweak it however you choose.
Rite of Consumption could be pretty good. I tested the Wall of Blood version and it's pretty risky. One attack from an average Goyf and the combo is instantly dead. I might switch it out for some Quillspikes, to give the Ooze infinite P/T and have a backup wincon in the form of a Spike-Druid combo. I've found out that with all the digging, Ooze combo is pretty consistent. And even if Ooze combo fails, Morselhoarder is a 6/4 and naked Ooze is a 4/3, so a small attack squad isn't entirely out of the question.
TheRogue,
Pithing Needle is a problem, of course. But that's what a SB is for. Your comment on Intuition is why I like the U version better than the R version. Gifts Ungiven is a double-Entomb or more, depending on the search. It instantly turns on the combo (with a partial search for Devoted Druid and Morselhoarder). So, Gifts is like a Modern-equivalent of Intuition, but not as cheap manawise. Tasigur, the Golden Fang is a great addition to the deck, as I can float as much mana as I want and use the ability as many times as I please. Plus, the opponent cannot choose Devil's Play to return to my hand, so that's a plus. That's why he's in both of the new versions.
Great suggestions everyone! Keep 'em coming!
Any other thoughts on any of the decks?
Thank you for the input. I don't run Banefire since I can bin and flashback Devil's Play, but not the fire. Niv is another activated ability that is a win-con in addition to being a possible Unburial Rites target. The combo can get started in response to a Bolt, but I see what you mean. Ooze is fragile. I wouldn't be opposed to axing 1 or more colors to trim up the deck, the two major ones being either U or R. Whilst I enjoy faithlessly looting, I also really like the synergies and strategies with the Gifts package. I'll tinker with the thought and post two more lists in the 1st post, one for each cut of a color.
Any thoughts? Suggestions for U / R dig spells?
THE COMBO
Simply use the druid's ability to put a -1/-1 counter on the Ooze, then use the hoarder's ability to remove said -1/-1 counter and add a mana of whatever color you want to your mana pool. Infinite mana at instant speed.
But, Modern doesn't have really nice GY tutor effects like Entomb, so how are we gonna efficiently get the combo into the yard? Well... Gifts Ungiven is a nice way to do so, with a partial tutor, of course. Plus, Gifts Ungiven gives us access to a Griselbrand + Unburial Rites package in case the Ooze plan doesn't work out. And of course Griselbrand is great with the Ooze. Throw in a little spice, maybe some amount of hatred, and we have a deck. This is the current list I'm jamming:
THE DECK
1x Forest
1x Island
2x Breeding Pool
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
3x Karplusan Forest
3x Darkslick Shores
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1x Devil's Play
4x Devoted Druid
3x Morselhoarder
4x Necrotic Ooze
Digging [15]
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Faithless Looting
3x Grisly Salvage
4x Izzet Charm
2x Birds of Paradise
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Unburial Rites
2x Griselbrand
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Necrotic Ooze
4x Devoted Druid
4x Morselhoarder
1x Devil's Play
2x Quillspike
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Dig [16]
3x Drown in Filth
4x Faithless Looting
2x Jarad's Orders
4x Grisly Salvage
3x Satyr Wayfinder
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Lightning Axe
2x Breeding Pool
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Yavimaya Coast
4x Devoted Druid
2x Griselbrand
3x Morselhoarder
4x Necrotic Ooze
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Devil's Play
Dig [16]
4x Satyr Wayfinder
2x Sultai Ascendancy
1x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Gifts Ungiven
4x Grisly Salvage
2x Drown in Filth
2x Unburial Rites
2x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3x Spell Pierce
You may notice something big missing... a sideboard!! I don't have a board built, simply because:
a) I'm terrible at making sideboards
b) I don't really know what to put in
That's a major thing that I need YOUR help with, in addition to making various tweaks here and there in the deck. Making it more streamlined, possibly for some competitive play? Ooze needs some love, so any and all input is greatly appreciated! Thank you for looking at this deck! Happy building!
#1: Brainstorm - There isn't any reason to not be running this card. Arguably the best card in U, possibly even Legacy. A full 4 should try to find a way into the deck. You don't want to skimp on these (Ponder falls into the category of Brainstorm as well). Bob doesn't make up for this extra piece of excellence, the digging power in these cantrips is too good to pass up. Bob is good in conjunction with the cantrips.
#2: Daze - Force of Will's little bro. Do not pass this up. A free counter early is great, and don't forget that it can be pitched to Force of Will. It's much better in this format than Remand, since Remand can't counter a thing for good, unlike an early Daze.
#3: Death's Shadow - Hear me out. This could easily see a spot, or even become a cornerstone, in your deck. Bob drains your life, Force of Will drains your life, Fetchlands drain your life as do Shocklands (Watery Grave for straight UB). With this guy flanking your Delver of Secrets on the field, your could run cards like Snuff Out, Dismember and Gitaxian Probe to help the avatar do its thing. Plus, all of the aforementioned spells flip Delver of Secrets.
So, if I were to make edits to the deck, the cards I'd remove (non-number specific) would be:
And try to fit in:
I like Percy, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit clunky as a 4-drop with no way to fill out the curve at 3. Dark Ritual, in the mid to late game, becomes the deadest of draws for a non-combo deck like this. Victim of Night, as well as Remand and Spell Snare could get some upgrades as well. And Cabal Coffers, while really cool, doesn't really devote too much to your strategy, since there isn't a hujungo thing to use all that B for. It could, along with some Swamps, become more Shocklands or Fetchlands.