MTG Salvation

I hate to sound insensitive, but Mardu is not good enough to be a traditional midrange deck. Pound for pound our cards aren't disproportionately more powerful like the old G/R dragons and Innistrad-era Jund. Other decks do similar things, and more, better. Playing hay-makers turn after turn is fun, but with every deck having access to good, efficient removal, you will either get tempo-ed out of the game starting your own clock on turn 4+, they will trade one for one and bury you in card advantage, or both. You either need a way to gain tempo against your opponents using Flamewake Phoenix, Seeker of the way and other efficient drops and leverage that tempo with burn and hasty/efficient creatures or your need to go wide with tokens to nullify their efficient answers and go over the top (around?) what they are doing, leveraging synergy to overpower your opponents, a proven strategy with the success of many different tokens decks.

Butcher of the Horde, while a good card, does the opposite of what the tokens deck would want to do in this format.

Summary: A mono-faceted, "Good stuff" deck, like most Mardu lists, is not going to be successful in the dynamic and powerful standard format created by the combination of the powerful Khans block and the perfect mana of fetches and battle lands.

Have you guys tried a tokens approach to the archetype?


I have been trying this out, as well as a small green splash for maindeck Den Protector in place of Drana. It have had a lot of success in a competitive FNM, but haven't brought it to a large event yet. I just thought I'd throw it out there as a different direction.

I think that many people here are building the deck incorrectly, IMO. Most seems to be focusing on the control elements of the deck too much. We have very poor ways of creating card advantage compared to a true control deck. Most lists I see spend the first four turns just surviving only to follow it up with what we hope is the threat that will close out the game. Sorry for the wall of text in advance.

Lets face it. We don't have inevitability. Our stabilization is shaky at best with many haste creatures and burn spells (Lightning strike/Gary). We just can't expect to one for one into the long game and expect to win consistently with the card/mana advantage engines in standard right now. The advantages of this deck is highly efficient removal, and powerful creatures. We need to be able to play a proactive game and end it on our terms in the midgame. That being said, here are some of my opinions on cards that are crucial to the success of this archtype.

Brimaz: This card pressures an opponent early. It also has built in value. While the cats aren't critical to winning, they do help buy crucial draw steps to draw the "correct" part of our deck and have the added bonus or protecting against Devour Flesh. All this is obvious, but it's CMC is the reason why it shines in this deck. It is even a respectable card on turn 4 if we feel we need to preserve our life total with shocklands or have an untimely scry land. I'm playing three and am tempted to play the fourth, as it is nearly always a live draw. It should be noted that this isn't a complete replacement for Boros Reckoner, but can wean some of our dependence off of it.

Desecration Demon: Many hate this card, but it is essential for very similar reasons to Brimaz. This card does suffer for the same reasons as the tribute cards from BNG, but when combined with our 12+ removal spells, this card presents a very healthy clock and is a "tribute" that can benefit us in the long term, a rare source of card advantage if you will. With different forms of instant speed removal spells we can punish players trying to take advantage of Desecration Demon's trigger in the short term. I run four but three may be the correct number.

Warleader's Helix: This card is very crucial. Our punishment for playing three colors AND Thoughseize is that our life total is an every dwindling resource. It's not where I want to be, but I believe it is a necessary evil. It hits around 60% of the creatures and kills all of the G/R planeswalkers after +1. It also punishes U/W players that are aggressive with their Jace and helps in some of our more difficult matches. I like it better than Mizzium Mortars, which I find to be redundant if we are running Bile Blight. I run three, but four may be necessary for the right meta.

Thoughtseize: Most people understand why we play this card. Be aware that this card should be cast in context. I will pay two life to ward off a turn two Domri, but in many matches I am looking to cast this for protection when I play a threat or before a crucial turn (before Stormbreath mana, ex.). There is so much more play to this simple effect than meets the eye. Again we want to be able to play the game at our own pace. We want to use this to punch through our opponents defenses, notas an answer to cards. I think this is a solid four of maindeck unless aggro is heavily present, but even then being able to take a critical Boros Charm/Advent/Brave the Elements allows us to play our game unimpeded.

Bile Blight: I like this card a lot maindeck. It hits nearly all the relevant early creatures in the format and, most importantly, hits mutavault. It's a great maindeck answer to Pack Rat that doesn't need to be as timely, and unlike many other damage based removal spells (Magma Jet/Warleader's Helix), can be used in conjunction with creatures to one for one larger creatures or even just prevent damage. I play two, but I wouldn't doubt that more could be the correct answer.

Diverse threats: One of the advantages of playing this deck, much like G/R Mosters is the diversity of threats we employ. Elspeth, Brimaz, Desecration Demon, Blood Baron, Assemble the Legions, Stormbreath Dragon, and Obzedat all require different ways to be dealt with and allows us opportunities where our opponent draws the "wrong" half of their deck. An oft underrated card that I have found success with is Rakdos Keyrune. It fixes mana, ramps us to our threats more quickly, and can present a fairly resilient threat itself. For all these reasons I try to diversify my threat maindeck and play more than the typical BWR deck.

I would like to reiterate that this is supporting a more proactive midrange version of the deck. There also is a more resilient control deck possible. Whip/Obzedat is potent and with now Reckoners 4-7 in Brimaz and Some heavy investment into black card draw a more controlling deck may be quite potent. I just belive that my version of the deck is more well possitioned at most metas that your would encounter, even moreso with minor tweaks. I'd like to hear what you guys think. I am again actively working with this deck and think that with Brimaz and sideboard Revoke Existence that this deck has more legs and is better positioned than before.

Brimaz in my testing has been the single best card in the deck. I feel it is the reason that we will be going base white for most builds. Other than that, I think you have the choice between either Bile Blight or Anger of the Gods and that choice determines which is your second and which is your splash color. Avoid Drown in Sorrow. There is a huge difference between -2/-2 and -3/-3 or 3 damage in the format right now.

I started working on the U/B version of this deck mostly as a fun FNM deck and my insatiable love for Ashiok in an aggressive shell. Surprisingly, the deck has grown to be quite competitive.

That being said I'd like to enter the discussion by posting my U/B list:



This is definitely a meta deck. It preys upon midrange with aggressive creatures, backed by cheap removal and temp spells. I have found that pressure is needed in this current standard. Decks, especially those that take advantage of devotion, are focused on taking advantage of board states. Even control decks are forced to tap out more often with planeswalkers and removal spells like Detention Sphere. Tempo spells are more impactful again. A two mana bounce/counter spell can set opponents back more than a turn when you play it in conjunction with cheap threats. I think this deck is still positioned well in the meta, but will have to splash for other colors to be more robust.

I find the biggest reason to splash black is sideboarded Erebos. It is great against Mono-Black, stopping the lifegain from both Grey Merchant and Whip of Erebos. Against control decks it stops the lifegain from Sphinx's Revelation, while also allowing you to draw cards to overwhelm their answers. These match-ups are two of the toughest. Erebos can radomly awaken with Nightveil Specter as well.

Duskmantle Seer is a surprisingly resilient threat. In a meta that is all about laying one 4+ drop after another his ability hits hard and while coupled with cheap bounce/removal/counterspells the drawback can be softened. This card is a serious contender for the Jace/Bident slot in the deck.

I won my local gameday this last weekend. While this may not be a huge accomplishment, there are around 15 or so PTQ grinders at my store. I went undefeated only dropping one game to a G/R Devotion deck. I played against Mono U devotion, U/W devotion, 2 Boros aggro, Junk midrange, Mono Black devotion, Esper control, and the aforementioned G/R devotion. The deck felt very solid is all it's choices. I also used every card in the sideboard at least once.

The only problem I had was mana issues. I was sometimes stuck on four mana for multiple turns, which allowed the opponents to get back into games that should have been easy wins. Once, being unable to cast the WW in Obzedat nearly cost me the game. For this reason and many others, Desecration Demon was an all star. Sin Collector also over performed. The amount of times it cleared out removal for my Obzedats and Blood Barons was amazing. Also against the Boros decks, being able to pull out or preemptively force a Boros Charm/Brave the Elements and block a attacker won at least two games.

I'd like to put myself solidly in the RtB category (except against Esper, then UC all the way). Read the Bones allows you to solve problems now. We still want to be proactive towards winning the game. Underworld Connections is a much better card when you are expected to grind out a game over the course of 10+ turns.

Quote from walkman312

A BWR deck with YP would look pretty different.

This times 100. The reason I have been testing this is that though we may technically be midrange, the deck plays out much more like a control deck. We are very reactive and what we play depends mostly on what we expect the others decks to play. I completely scrapped the deck and was looking at more proactive options, which led me in a interesting direction. Here is the very rough list that I am working on at the moment.

Creatures: Stormbreath Dragon, Boros Reckoner, Desecration Demon, Obzedat, Young Pyromancer, and Aurelia. These are all very efficient and proactive creatures that can have a huge impact on the board.

Chandra: Gets the nod over Elspeth because it helps push damage through against other aggressive decks and creates card advantage against control decks. It also fits a fairly empty spot in the curve at 4cc.

Removal: We tend towards 2cc removal spells here. This helps us get value out of YP on turn three, while still playing a tapped land. Most of our threats are fairly cheap. In the midgame this lets us play a threat and remove a creature and just in general be more efficient with our mana.

Magma Jet: I have been strongly against this card in this deck, but I have always been a fan of it in a more aggressive deck. This version doesn't plan to "stabilize" like the more traditional version does. It plans to get through for 20 damage as ealy and quickly as possible while preventing the opponent from doing the same with a few choice removal spells and some disruption. It is much more dependent on mana issues and card quality, while still able to use the two damage to the dome. I think this is the kind of deck tat this card is meant for.

Boros Charm: One of the main reasons to play this deck. It has synergy with YP facing Anger of the God's, Blocking Boros Reckoners and can dome for a large amount of a life total.

Thoughtseize: I would love to fit maindeck copies of this spell in here, but have yet to find room. I feel that it fits very well with the gameplan of this deck.

Keep in mind that this is still in the very preliminary stages of testing, but looks to be very promising. I love that I can dictate the pace of games and force other decks to have to react with me. I feel that a proactive version is very viable and necessary as the meta becomes more well formed.

Here is my traditional list that I have been having success with if others are interested.



Edit: I think I am going to do a formal blog on this version. I have today and tomorrow off from work and will be testing basically non-stop with a friend. This is unexplored territory as far as I can tell, but I am really liking how everything is turning out.

I have been relatively mute on this board lately, but I have decided to become more active. I think I have a lot to share. I was one of the first to suggest removing Magma Jet, which is no longer as controversial as it used to be. I have always included a pair of Rakdos Keyrunes in my deck, which is now nearly standard. I have done much testing with friends against the current and proposed meta. I have played this deck to a 9th and 13th place finish in States and TCGplayer States repectively.

Recently I have been trying out Young Pyromancer. Most people look at this card and immediately dismiss it in this deck. They see this card as an engine to churn out elementals and swarm their opponents to win the game. What I see is an efficient two drop with a built in value engine. Recently many of you are in the Soldier of the Pantheon (SotP hereafter) crowd. Here’s why you should give Young Pyromancer (YP) a chance:

• SotP rarely comes down on turn one. He doesn’t need to block anything except a Rakdos Cackler, but if you take pain to play him you have basically already been hit once by the Cackler anyways. With the right manabase, YP can come down turn two nearly every game without pain.
• YP is a two drop that dictates how you opponent spends his turn. It forces decks to use removal on turn three rather than futher their boardstate. This eats up a removal spell, letting your high impact creatures sweep in with less fear of being removed. The other option is that they allow a turn to pass and you get value out of your two drop.
• Speaking of stalling, YP allows for a lot of breathing room against midrange. There are very few creatures that trample outside of Advent of the Wurm and Ghor Clan Rampager. YP plus removal spells can create a soft wall, allowing RWB to gather resources needed to go over the top of traditional midrange decks.
• YP is efficient. 2/1’s for two mana with value have always been very playable and valuable. While not a fair comparison by any means, the last one was Snapcaster mage. Another is Dark Confidant. The reason they are so playable is that they are relevant in combat even without their ability, but the added value available makes then incredibly powerful. YP can trade with most of RDW’s creatures. With the addition of any spell, he can trade with most of G/W’s creatures.
• SotP can lay the beating on control players, but YP can double that clock easily for doing exactly what you normally want to be doing in those matchups; removing planeswalkers and playing disruption. The elemental tokens that hang around also help your game winning creatures survive the many edict effects. Even a couple elementals plus a Boros Reckoner or Sin Collector represent to very serious clock.

I don’t know if this direction is better than the more traditional route, but I think it is definitely worth exploring. YP fills much the same role that Soldier of the Pantheon, Precinct Captain, and Voice of Resurgence do in other decks. Problems with YP are that it is great turn 2-6, but loses utility beyond that once your hand runs dry. Also, it does dictate how you build your deck. The lack of synergy with Anger of the Gods is the major player here and, although I do not want to stretch the deck to accommodate YP, I think there is a minimum number of spells that should be played with him, and preferably with a lower converted mana cost.

If you guys are interested I can post a decklist, but I should warn you I am still very preliminary in testing this. I also have the more traditional list that I am using in tournaments to much success. Ultimately I feel that arguing over the more tradition version of this deck is basically a moot point. This is deck is a scalpel. Tuned correctly it can cut a meta wide open, but I don’t think that the same deck can be ported from tournament to tournament well, even in a well established meta. In Kamahl’s blog, he stated the “core” of the deck. I think that it is much broader than that. The skeleton should be 4 Boros Reckoner, some other creatures/win conditions, a handful disruption spells, a smattering of removals spells, a pinch of utility, and a large helping of lands. The options are just so varied and tend to have less general utility. I think we should focus on each card’s strengths and not which spells/creatures/ect. to run unless for a specific tournament.

Well that is my 2 cents. Sorry about the wall of text.

edit/tl;dr This deck is generally based on the power printed on the cards in the deck. There are few synergies or choices other that which removal spell to use on which threat and the occasional Obzedat/Whip. Young Pyromancer can attack from different directions and has a dynamic impact on how this deck interacts with other decks and cards.

I have sleeved up a version of the deck with Young Pyromancer and things are looking promising. I love forcing mono red into burning him instead of playing a three drop. He gets so much value out of the G/x matchups since he rarely gets removed outside of combat. I have yet to play against any control decks, but I expect much the same. Tonight was just a proof of concept. I will be working on this more to see where it leads.

With a bit of work, Precinct Captain can be replaced by Young Pyromancer in our list. Most people think of this card as an all or nothing affair, but I just view it as a value two drop. It's surely not for every version of the deck, but if you play 14-18 spells main, I think this is a valuable asset. It's an army in a can against control, whose tokens also protect from edict effects. Against aggro he comes down early, forcing them to remove him immediately, or makes chumps to help stall you to your high impact late game creatures and planeswalkers.

I also run Warleader's Helix, but not in the quantities I used to. I have found a pair in the main and another in the side works well at balancing out removal for different matchups.

I will reiterate to everyone here, not being able to interact with your opponents at instant speed is really going to cause problems. A lot of losses I have taken are from hasty dragons and wurms out of nowhere. Spirits that never die can be quite annoying as well. I'd suggest being able to this somewhere between the main and sidedoard.

(Sorry for this. I just found out how to link without specifying the card name.)

Quote from MrRotten

By Turn 5 and beyond, the life loss point is a stupid argument.

I think that is when it is most crucial. You have not stabilized by turn 5-7. You are usually just a topdeck away from losing the game. Every life point is crucial. If your life total truly doesn't matter than you have already won that game. I don't want you to think I am arguing with you for semantics. I am not in anyway saying that you are wrong or trying to offend you. I just want to show my point of view to those reading the thread. That's what debating is all about.

edit: To just simply state my opinion: Read the Bones is better against aggro, while Underworld Connections is better against control. Finding where the balance lies is very difficult for me and I do not know the answer to which one is better in the deck. My testing leans towards Read the Bones, but is by no means definitive.

edit 2: I sounded way too aggressive with my post. I have edited it to get my point across more clearly, without being ostentatious or confrontational.

Underworld Connections is TERRIBLE in the aggro matchup. It is essentially a four mana cantrip that costs you a life. Sure it is great once you stabilize, but you should already be well on you way to winning by then. Read the Bones has an immediate impact on hand quality and quantity, costs less resources and does not tie up your mana. If you play card draw main, I think Read the Bones is the obvious choice. Personally I only run 1 Read the Bones main, mostly because I never cast it on curve. I use it as a second wind to finish out a game. Underworld connections is a very powerful card. The card advantage you can gain off it is huge and it helps you use mana more efficiently, but does not affect card quality and is very slow. I'd rather scry 2 and draw two cards than draw three. Once you get that fourth card, I feel the Underworld Connections has finally gained more value than Read the Bones. I feel Underworld Connections is arguably one of the best cards we can sideboard against control for reasons previously mentioned. Ultimately I am not playing this because I try to have my sideboard have less silver bullets and more general purpose cards like Glare of Heresy (Disclaimer: This may be the wrong way to do it)

On Warleader's Helix, I have to say that 4 damage is not what it used to be. It rarely trades efficiently for a creature any more and some of the biggest threats in the format are either immune or have 5+ toughness. I still like the card because killing an aggresive creature and negating one of its attacks is very useful. It can also go to the dome and, unlike mizzium mortars, can hit planeswalkers in the control matchup.

On Magma Jet...I am fine being alone on this one. It just doesn't have enough targets to warrant inclusion. When it has a target it is the best spell in the deck. When it doesn't it is worse than an Augury Owl. If you have trouble with mono-red throw a pair in the sideboard, but we have many more versatile removal spells that are needed in many matches for the maindeck.

On Desecration Demon, why is he bad against control? He seems best against control. He is a huge clock by himself. He is cheap. He has to be answered and is undoombladable. They either need to play ultimate price, not ideal, or use an edict or verdict which is fine by me. He is best against decks with few creatures. Against aggro on the other hand, he turns irrelevant 1 and 2 drops into tempo swings and good luck blocking a Boros Reckoner with him. Also with things like Voice of Resurgence and Precinct Captain you will frustratingly find that he doesn't untap until you shuffle up for the next game. There's also the fact that he can be Selesnya Charmed. If you want doomblade one a stick we already have that. Don't get me wrong I am not playing him. I prefer cards that are very difficult to remove , have an [CARD=Stormbreath Dragon]immediate impact on the board, or both.

Edit:

Quote from MrRotten

Having one sitting in my hand makes me giddy though, because once I hold off the Aggro deck for 5 turns, I know I'll be able to start replenishing my hand with Threats/Answers to end the game.

This is correct with a caveat. Read the Bones finds threats/answer much more quickly, giving the aggro deck less turns to topdeck what they need an does so at minimal life loss.

RtB digs through 4 cards, what if those 4 cards are all removal options and your Threats are clumped deeper?

In this scenario you did what Underworld Connections would do over the course of four turns in a single turn and with half the life loss...

I'll weigh in on underworld connection vs read the bones. Read the bones draws cards the turn it is cast and is a three drop.. Underworld connections draws at the earliest on turn 4 and I ultimately consider it to be a four drop. It also ties up mana. In a deck that only wins by casting fiveand six drops on time, I think read the bones gets the nod maindeck. Underworld connections power really shines in the sideboard against control and slow no accelerant midrange (like the mirror).

Quote from LordGrimpow

I've noticed that most of our removal package in the mainboard is sorcery speed. Has anyone thought about mainboarding Doom Blade? Sure it doesn't hit black, I for one am not expecting to see a lot of black creatures anyway and having a combat trick seems slightly better than a sorcery speed, land dependent, creature-type restricted, oblivion ring for 1 less mana.

Thoughts?

Doom Blade is definitely a card you should consider. Being able to interact with a topdecked Stormbreath Dragon is huge. I run 1 in the main, with a miser's copy of devour flesh for obzedat, and another in the sideboard. The power of Chained to the Rocks is that it allows us to play a tapped land turn two, yet still remove a creature. Worst case scenario, think of it as a one mana unsummon where they have to spend a card to get their early drop creature back. By the time they do, we are outclassing their creatures with Blood Barons, Obzedats, and Stormbreath Dragons. I never hit a creature worth getting back with it unless I have to. That is what Dreadbore/Doomblade/Mizzium/Helix is for.

Barring any last minute changes, this is what I will be running come States


On my testing lately. Obzedat has just been the single best card in the deck. I am never mad drawing it unless I don't have the lands/colors to cast it. It has been bumped up to three copies. With that change comes a second whip added to the list to the detriment of a Rakdos's Return. Also I am worried a lot about control matchups with the success of U/W and esper control. This change helps with that matchup along with moving a third Thoughtseize to the main and a helix to the sideboard. The sideboard is still a bit in flux, but will mostly just change in numbers rather than cards. Good luck this weekend guys.