Has anyone considered Icefall Regent as an inclusion in Jeskai tempo/midrange? Card looks sweet and I noticed a couple copies were floating around some Jeskai lists last weekend at the SCG Open. I'm currently running a fairly stock list, so Regent would replace the Sarkhans. I figured that Regent is slower than Sarkhan, but ultimately fulfills the same role as a flying threat/removal spell (pseudo in that it doesn't actually kill a thing, but less conditional since it hits anything regardless of toughness).
Haha does anyone notice that marang river skeleton has the same armor as marang river prowler? Looks like that guy has been in the same damn river for a thousand years. narset is OP. Why do azorious players get to have decks again? Love me some dragons.
Yeah, I cracked up when I saw Marang River Skeleton.
I just realized this thing has flying. I think its Valorous Stance levels of good for Jeskai. I don't care if my opponent knows I can negate one of their upcoming plays either, there is a ton of value in this guy and the things its doing things are holes Jeskai can greatly benefit from having filled. It is the relatively potent three cost ceature + negate post board five land play that is very strong for Jeskai but all in one card (though given creature doesn't do quite what Rider or Rabble does, but still can hit for 2-3.
Well put. That's kind of what I was trying to get across - the card isn't bonkers or anything, but it does seem like it could fill in some of the gaps that the Jeskai deck has. Until you play it, you'll have no idea how awkward it is to be an aggressive deck with several tap lands and a glut of 3-drops all sitting on top of one another.
The problem is you need to play it as a morph first. Pretty hard not to telegraph that you have a Negate Creature in play.
I think a 2/1 flier for 1B is reasonable enough in that you can cast it on turn 2 if you have a better turn 3 play. The fact that it flips up into a 3/2 flier is what makes me think it has promise. I'll definitely have to see it in play to know how well (or how badly) it matches up against the common play patterns in standard though. I'm not saying you're really gonna "get" someone with this by catching them off guard. I think it's a sweet design that might have a shot at filling a huge gap in an already established deck.
So anyways...how about them non-Elder Dragon cards?
Stratus Dancer looks dope. I really hope this will give Jeskai tempo the boost it needs by adding another card that justifies the blue splash. It's another aggressive 2-drop that you'll actually want to play on turn two (Soulfire Grand Master didn't cut it) and there's a pretty big upside to morphing it.
Just one small point on #6. ONE DIDN'T, but the others DID. Setting that aside, can someone explain to me the whole thing with Goyf in the first place? It doesn't have trample, so why is it so good? Any graveyard haate (that 0 mana crypt for example) makes Goyf useless. So why is it a 200 dollar card?
Because it's reliably a 2 mana 4/5 that's easily splash-able (which I think is more relevant in older formats) and dodges one of the most commonly played removal spells in modern. There's also no other card quite like it, so there's really no budget replacement.
and whats the problem with: "you cant do much wrong with playing abzan?"
I just think that every deck/archetype should have shortcomings that can be exploited in the right environment. I'm not saying Abzan is broken or anything or that it doesn't have weaknesses. It's a pretty fair deck. It's just that pretty much every deck in standard right now has at least a couple matchups where you get punished for playing that deck, and yet it seems like even Abzan's bad matchups aren't too bad.
Though I'm a fan of R&D's new direction in making answers more conditional, I think it's a slight shortcoming that Abzan just so happens to be in the right colors and have the right tools to take advantage of pretty much all of the best answers in Standard. It sort of goes against what R&D is trying to do, in my opinion.
But I'll say it again, I actually really like standard right now and I do think it's diverse. At the same time, I can see why other people are suggesting that standard isn't quite as open as we've been lead to believe.
And for clarity, when I refer to Abzan, I refer to all the flavors of Abzan, since they're built around the same core of cards.
Just look at Jeskai tokens. It's still a deck capable of incredibly powerful things, and yet it's so easily hosed by Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrow. On the other hand, there's really nothing punishing people who sleeve up Abzan every week.
There's also Hushwing Gryff that stops any ETB reanimation shenanigans.
Valorous Stance is definitely a great card. I have yet to see anyone do anything with Reality Shift and I'm not exactly sure how good it is either. Hushwing is fine, but not exactly what I would call a versatile card.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you really can't be too wrong by choosing to play a G/B/x right now. If (when) something like tokens rises to prominence, it doesn't cost those decks much to start jamming 4x Bile Blight/4x Drown in Sorrow and enchantment hate in the SB.
I actually really enjoy Standard and am having a lot of fun seeing how things change from week to week. However, I can see where people are coming from with the argument that things are "deceptively" open.
While there's a wide variety of decks that you could play, the overall tone/feel of the format is heavily slanted towards midrange and the same stock core of powerful creatures that go into these decks. Hell, even a lot of the most viable aggressive strategies (Abzan aggro, R/W, Mardu) are just slightly faster midrange decks. That isn't to say there aren't viable aggro or control decks. However, these strategies are significantly more fragile and easy to answer than just about any of the midrange decks (the only one I can think of that would be easy to answer if it became big is mono green, and that's simply because of how linear and weak to sweepers that deck is).
Just look at Jeskai tokens. It's still a deck capable of incredibly powerful things, and yet it's so easily hosed by Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrow. On the other hand, there's really nothing punishing people who sleeve up Abzan every week.
While I'm here, I'll post the tokens list I'm thinking of starting with and refining in the coming weeks. I don't have much experience playing tokens, so I'll posit some assumptions I have about the deck and maybe ya'll can correct my thinking.
Some numbers I would like to play around with: 3-4 Mentors. Could just be too good not to run the full playset. 1-2 Grand Master. I don't think I ever want to draw one early. Seems like a great card to draw late once we've se up the Ascendancy/Treasure Cruise engine as a way to maintain velocity. 1-2 Jeskai Charm. I love this card and the +1/+1 is fantastic in this deck. Everyone seems to want to cut to a single copy though. I have no idea what the correct numbers are for Wild Slash and Lightning Strike. Seems like there are plenty of situations where either card just doesn't do enough.
Mana base is pretty rough as I've just copy + pasted from how I've been building my Jeskai aggro lists. Is 23 lands enough? I've seen anywhere from 23-25.
Valorous Stance in the main. Card is amazing and it feels wrong not playing at least two. I have no idea what to cut though.
One ofs? They seem like more of a liability than anything, but there are some sweet targets that I wouldn't mind hitting once we start aggressively looting. Dig Through Time, End Hostilities, and even Magma Jet (as a way to keep things flowing smoothly) seem decent.
As noted above, Shaman's strength is about complimenting and enabling the rest of the curve more than being a powerhouse in and of itself. It can break ground stalls by growing your evasive guys (seeker/rider/stormbreath) but it also presents a threat when played onto a clear board (such as after end hostilities or crux) that continues to pressure the opponent. There are times trading it with a courser is fine, as it opens the board up for a rabblemaster in hand. Even without attacking it demands your opponents attention, and the draw ability can be used to bleed out other removal an opponent might be saving for stormbreaths.
Valorous Stance should probably be a four of. Keeping your creature alive in the early-mid game can make the difference in pushing through damage to kill your opponent, and it is simply amazing against the creatures it can remove. The addition of stance puts you in a position to realistically remove any blocker between slash/lightning strike/stance. Most of the abzan package becomes very manageable save Elspeth, who was responsible for most of my lost games against Abzan.
Thanks for the response and congrats on the top 8.
Shaman seems more appealing to me now. The fact that it can pressure the opponent the turn it comes into play or just sit there and generate value makes it a bit more versatile than I had thought. It seems like the deck now has a lot of ways to really stretch opposing removal and put the opponent on the back foot. Depending on how you build the deck, Rabblemaster, Mantis Rider, Monastery Mentor, Shaman of the Great Hunt, and Stormbreath Dragon all demand answers.
If you don't mind me asking, what are your opinions on Monastery Mentor and Soulfire Grand Master in this build? I think a lot of people are struggling to figure out the best shell for these two cards. My first instinct was to just jam them both into a random Jeskai list, but I can see how they would underperform unless an entire deck is built around them.
Thanks for the detailed response. Really helps as a jumping off point for brewing.
With regards to Shaman - I agree, it feels somewhat off in a Jeskai deck. However, I've always felt like the deck could use a solid 4 drop and I've never been a huge fan of Ashcloud (I know this is purely anecdotal, but it just underperforms every time I've tried it in a Jeskai or R/W shell). My main concern with Shaman is that there's now a one mana answer to our 4-drop that'll probably see a decent amount of play (i.e. Wild Slash).
And I forgot to mention - how do you feel about Triplicate Spirits in an Ascendancy list? I saw one guy playing them this weekend on stream, but I didn't get to watch the full game so I have no idea how they worked out. I'm assuming that it's a bit "win more", since the casting cost is unmanageable unless you already have a significant board presence to convoke them out.
I'm not sure if you guys who watched the SCGDC Open are aware of this, but the 2nd place R/W "Aggro" list is literally Jeskai Tokens minus Ascendancy and Cruise. It's the same deck, just opting out of blue. I consider that a win for us in my book. Add blue, remove Outpost Siege and edit the spell list a bit, and you have, what I believe to be anyways, the premier way to run Jeskai Tokens. If the RW deck can do it, so can Jeskai. I feel as though the reason why many of the Jeskai tokens decks failed to make it higher on the top 64 list was the mistake of removing Goblin Rabblemaster for Monastery Mentor, and not running both. Sure, you may get clunky hands of three drops every now and again, but any deck can have that issue, including the R/W deck that we saw make 2nd place.
Yeah, I noticed that and even thought to myself "why isn't this just an Ascendancy deck?"
I think a lot of the tokens lists were very unrefined and experimental. Tom Ross placed 12th with the deck and I honestly don't know what to take away from it. He's obviously a very strong player who can probably pilot anything to a reasonable finish. The deck looked amazing on camera, but then you look at the list and see the ridiculous amount of 1-ofs in the MB/SB. I think the problem is just figuring out where Mentor/Grand Master fit into the archetype and what cards get cut in their place. Mentor was insane when it lived, but then again, I noticed spots where cutting Rabblemaster was a liability.
How reasonable do you think it would be to take Danny Goldstein's list and transform it into Jeskai tempo/burn? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking: -4 Hordeling Outburst +4 Mantis Rider, -2 Collateral Damage -1 Magma Jet +3 Wild Slash, -2 Outpost Siege +2 Shaman of the Great Hunt (seemed to work for Walewski), -4 Raise the Alarm +1 Soulfire Grand Master +2 Dig Through Time, +1 land (?). Only problem is I would want to try and fit Stormbreath somewhere in the main. Curving out from Mantis Rider into Shaman into Stormbreath seems insane.
That's just a rough idea though and honestly I'm having trouble finding what direction I want to go in. So far Jeskai burn/tempo, Jeskai tokens, R/W aggro, R/W/u burn (splash for Jeskai Charm/Treasure Cruise) are all lists I want to play around with.
It dies to Lightning Strike though. And to be honest, I might just be trying to get too fancy with new cards and should just jam Stormbreath Dragons and Thunderbreak Regents
Seems obvious enough to me, considering that I don't care about Magic lore and I still knew that.
Yeah, I cracked up when I saw Marang River Skeleton.
"And some say he's still prowling to this day..."
The former would work best in a control deck, while the -2 is potentially backbreaking in a Jeskai burn deck. Rebound on Stoke the Flames anyone?
Well put. That's kind of what I was trying to get across - the card isn't bonkers or anything, but it does seem like it could fill in some of the gaps that the Jeskai deck has. Until you play it, you'll have no idea how awkward it is to be an aggressive deck with several tap lands and a glut of 3-drops all sitting on top of one another.
I think a 2/1 flier for 1B is reasonable enough in that you can cast it on turn 2 if you have a better turn 3 play. The fact that it flips up into a 3/2 flier is what makes me think it has promise. I'll definitely have to see it in play to know how well (or how badly) it matches up against the common play patterns in standard though. I'm not saying you're really gonna "get" someone with this by catching them off guard. I think it's a sweet design that might have a shot at filling a huge gap in an already established deck.
Stratus Dancer looks dope. I really hope this will give Jeskai tempo the boost it needs by adding another card that justifies the blue splash. It's another aggressive 2-drop that you'll actually want to play on turn two (Soulfire Grand Master didn't cut it) and there's a pretty big upside to morphing it.
And then there's this guy...
Because it's reliably a 2 mana 4/5 that's easily splash-able (which I think is more relevant in older formats) and dodges one of the most commonly played removal spells in modern. There's also no other card quite like it, so there's really no budget replacement.
I just think that every deck/archetype should have shortcomings that can be exploited in the right environment. I'm not saying Abzan is broken or anything or that it doesn't have weaknesses. It's a pretty fair deck. It's just that pretty much every deck in standard right now has at least a couple matchups where you get punished for playing that deck, and yet it seems like even Abzan's bad matchups aren't too bad.
Though I'm a fan of R&D's new direction in making answers more conditional, I think it's a slight shortcoming that Abzan just so happens to be in the right colors and have the right tools to take advantage of pretty much all of the best answers in Standard. It sort of goes against what R&D is trying to do, in my opinion.
But I'll say it again, I actually really like standard right now and I do think it's diverse. At the same time, I can see why other people are suggesting that standard isn't quite as open as we've been lead to believe.
And for clarity, when I refer to Abzan, I refer to all the flavors of Abzan, since they're built around the same core of cards.
Valorous Stance is definitely a great card. I have yet to see anyone do anything with Reality Shift and I'm not exactly sure how good it is either. Hushwing is fine, but not exactly what I would call a versatile card.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you really can't be too wrong by choosing to play a G/B/x right now. If (when) something like tokens rises to prominence, it doesn't cost those decks much to start jamming 4x Bile Blight/4x Drown in Sorrow and enchantment hate in the SB.
While there's a wide variety of decks that you could play, the overall tone/feel of the format is heavily slanted towards midrange and the same stock core of powerful creatures that go into these decks. Hell, even a lot of the most viable aggressive strategies (Abzan aggro, R/W, Mardu) are just slightly faster midrange decks. That isn't to say there aren't viable aggro or control decks. However, these strategies are significantly more fragile and easy to answer than just about any of the midrange decks (the only one I can think of that would be easy to answer if it became big is mono green, and that's simply because of how linear and weak to sweepers that deck is).
Just look at Jeskai tokens. It's still a deck capable of incredibly powerful things, and yet it's so easily hosed by Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrow. On the other hand, there's really nothing punishing people who sleeve up Abzan every week.
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Seeker of the Way
2 Soulfire Grand Master
Spells
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Jeskai Charm
3 Wild Slash
3 Lightning Strike
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Hordeling Outburst
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Flooded Strand
3 Mystic Monastery
3 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph
Thanks for the response and congrats on the top 8.
Shaman seems more appealing to me now. The fact that it can pressure the opponent the turn it comes into play or just sit there and generate value makes it a bit more versatile than I had thought. It seems like the deck now has a lot of ways to really stretch opposing removal and put the opponent on the back foot. Depending on how you build the deck, Rabblemaster, Mantis Rider, Monastery Mentor, Shaman of the Great Hunt, and Stormbreath Dragon all demand answers.
If you don't mind me asking, what are your opinions on Monastery Mentor and Soulfire Grand Master in this build? I think a lot of people are struggling to figure out the best shell for these two cards. My first instinct was to just jam them both into a random Jeskai list, but I can see how they would underperform unless an entire deck is built around them.
With regards to Shaman - I agree, it feels somewhat off in a Jeskai deck. However, I've always felt like the deck could use a solid 4 drop and I've never been a huge fan of Ashcloud (I know this is purely anecdotal, but it just underperforms every time I've tried it in a Jeskai or R/W shell). My main concern with Shaman is that there's now a one mana answer to our 4-drop that'll probably see a decent amount of play (i.e. Wild Slash).
And I forgot to mention - how do you feel about Triplicate Spirits in an Ascendancy list? I saw one guy playing them this weekend on stream, but I didn't get to watch the full game so I have no idea how they worked out. I'm assuming that it's a bit "win more", since the casting cost is unmanageable unless you already have a significant board presence to convoke them out.
Yeah, I noticed that and even thought to myself "why isn't this just an Ascendancy deck?"
I think a lot of the tokens lists were very unrefined and experimental. Tom Ross placed 12th with the deck and I honestly don't know what to take away from it. He's obviously a very strong player who can probably pilot anything to a reasonable finish. The deck looked amazing on camera, but then you look at the list and see the ridiculous amount of 1-ofs in the MB/SB. I think the problem is just figuring out where Mentor/Grand Master fit into the archetype and what cards get cut in their place. Mentor was insane when it lived, but then again, I noticed spots where cutting Rabblemaster was a liability.
How reasonable do you think it would be to take Danny Goldstein's list and transform it into Jeskai tempo/burn? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking: -4 Hordeling Outburst +4 Mantis Rider, -2 Collateral Damage -1 Magma Jet +3 Wild Slash, -2 Outpost Siege +2 Shaman of the Great Hunt (seemed to work for Walewski), -4 Raise the Alarm +1 Soulfire Grand Master +2 Dig Through Time, +1 land (?). Only problem is I would want to try and fit Stormbreath somewhere in the main. Curving out from Mantis Rider into Shaman into Stormbreath seems insane.
That's just a rough idea though and honestly I'm having trouble finding what direction I want to go in. So far Jeskai burn/tempo, Jeskai tokens, R/W aggro, R/W/u burn (splash for Jeskai Charm/Treasure Cruise) are all lists I want to play around with.