Thanks for the reply, badabing! I thought about it some more, and I agree with you that it is rather light on beatsticks. I still like the countermagic, though: I kind of want the opponent to be casting spells, and countering them lets me stop their stuff and still One way I thought of to address that was to take out the two Sages of the Anima for two Doran, the Siege Tower. Doran is a bit risky since it buffs some enemy guys, but it debuffs a lot of others. Or perhaps Lorescale Coatl could do work. Also, I think that a very reasonable plan is to just side into a higher threat density against more aggressive decks.
I also came up with a red list, which uses Ruric Thar, the Unbowed as absolutely savage hate against some control decks and also just a big dude, and Burning-Tree Shaman, who is hateful but also proactive. I also decided that Murkfiend Liege could be good for ending games fast, and it also synergizes with my countermagic. Finally, I thought that Brutalizer Exarch has natural synergy with HeSto, and can remove noncreature permanents more permanently (in some cases) than Acidic Slime. Other than that, I basically like my shell.
Also, here's a sideboard idea for the red version. The white version would probably just replace the two
3 Dryad Militant
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Cloudthresher
2 Wall of Roots
2 Brutalizer Exarch
3 Trygon Predator (mainly for dealing with Torpor Orb)
Do you like drawing cards? Do you like laughing at the opponent as dead cards molder in their hand? Do you like telling long, stupid, possibly raunchy stories? Then perhaps you should talk to Heartwood Storyteller. He's your kind of guy. HeSto seems, right off the bat, like a guy who can do work, but is a bit of a double-edged sword. Unless, of course, you play a deck with NO NONCREATURE SPELLS.
I hear some of you chuckling to yourselves. "Yeah right," you snort. "See how far you get with no Chord of Calling, no Birthing Pod, no Genesis Wave. You might as well commit hara kiri before the match, for all the chance you'll have."
Well, if you were thinking such vitriolic thoughts before, I really don't know what to say except to try this out. This is untested- I haven't yet bought the deck, but I'm open to suggestions. My basic idea with this deck is to use a Bant (mostly green) creature shell with various mana dorks, a smattering of hatebears and hatebirds like Dryad Militant and Aven Mindcensor and Scavenging Ooze to hurt some strategies, and some creature-based countermagic in Mystic Snake and Spellstutter Sprite. The beauty of Heartwood Storyteller is that every now and then, the card you draw off him when they cast a noncreature spell will give you the Mystic Snake or Spellstutter Sprite you need to counter it. Finally, completing the "I've got a green thumb, and you know where I'm gonna shove it" theme of the deck, we have a little bit of artifact and enchantment hate that doesn't suck when there are no artifacts or enchantments to kill.
So, here's my first draft. Tell me what you think! Also, please tell me how to format my decks the way other people do.
If I weren't on a budget, I would probably run a couple of Vendilion Cliques for hand disruption, which the deck would certainly like, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as more-or-less strict upgrade over Yeva, Nature's Herald. I would also run a blingier mana base, and possibly Tarmogoyf as a nice, beefy beater. I do think this deck has real potential, but then again, here in the HeSto's house, we got some sweet herb.
Yeah, I recommend mycosynth wellspring and ichor wellspring. Probably make a Myr deck, using Myr Welder and Myr Reservoir to get some recursion going. Ultimately, you probably just want to equip an Umbral Mantle to Myr Welder with a Myr Reservoir and/or aPili-Pala imprinted to make a huge creature and/or infinite mana.
Oh yeah, and Skullclamp is awesome with Trading Post, mainly because Skullclamp is Skullclamp. Also, Springjack Pasture lets you sacrifice the Goats for fun and profit (although the only real net outcome of using Trading Post to make a Goat and sacrificing the Goat to Springjack Pasture in the same turn is filtering one mana and tapping both of those permanents.
Oh, and while you're at it, might as well Cytoshape their dude into a 0/1 Goat, playGoatnapper to steal it, and sacrifice it to Springjack Pasture. Take that, card efficiency!
I'd tap dat assasssin! Yes, there are a lot of random, egregiously non-budget cards in there- I just happen to have some of them (i.e., Sword of Light and Shadow, two fetches, Phyrexian Arena, Bitterblossom) and think they'd fit in well. I would welcome suggestions; I think that I'd actually want to compete with this.
Hi, I've been looking at this particular thread for a while. I've definitely thought of this combo before, and when I saw Stranglehold my first thought was Maralen.
When I came up with a deck, it intially had a smaller discard suite than yours (4 InqKoz, 3 Duress, 4 HTT), but since I'm not willing to buy thoughseize, I'd use four of each. Other than that, I pretty well agree about your removal choices, although I might use 2 dreadbore and 2 terminate rather than 2 dreadbore and 2 hero's downfall. Planeswalkers take long enough to get going that you can probably wait until post-maralen to search up a kill spell and take 'em out. Also, not all decks play them, and I'd rather not have an uncastable 3-mana removal spell sitting in my hand while they smash face with a tarmogoyf or whatever.
I also think that Ensnaring Bridge is a better choice than Diabolic Edict. Diabolic Edict is obviously targeted removal for fighting rean decks, but Ensnaring Bridge does it one better by stopping many creatures. Only downside is it's vulnerable to bounce and artifact removal. And how often are you going to have 7, let alone 15, cards in hand?
I think that Dark Ritual is more important than you give it credit for. I understand why you don't include it- you want to spend turns 1 and 2 destroying their hand so that you can cast your combo unhindered- but I think that any deck like this with powerful cards that can actually shut down some strategies NEEDS to be able to cast its spells a couple of turns early. Let's look at what Dark Rit can do for you:
1. Against Dredge, a turn 1 Maralen is actually game over. They can discard cards until the cows come home, and they can fetch up their Cabal Therapies to eat your hand for breakfast, but without the ability to dredge, they just look embarassing. And most lists only play Darkblast or something similar for creature removal, to kill Yixlid Jailer and other problem critters. She also prevents the ElfBall deck from going off, because she colds Glimpse of Nature. These are only specific matchups, and in reality you would want to spend turn 1 hitting them with a discard spell so you know what they're playing, but time is of the essence against such fast decks.
2. Turn 2 Stranglehold, if you're on the play, can devastate a player who uses lots of fetches (i.e., almost every "fair" strategy out there, plus maybe storm) and can also hurt a Stoneforge Mystic player. It can, again, slow down reanimator (no more Entomb for you!) and storm and elfball (no more tutors!). I think that that is a more important reason for Dark Rit than the potential of T1 Maralen, since just in general you want to play Stranglehold before you play Maralen, the reason being that if you play Maralen first, they get to search their library before you do, and could easily search for a kill spell. Then you're back to square 1.
3. If you did try to make a variant of the deck that includes something like Abyssal Persecutor as an alternative, "fair", wincon, it's good to get those out super early as well. Not to mention that you could just go gonzo and do a T1 dark rit, HTT, duress.
Weltkrieg, I was previously on board with you about Winds of Change, and I would have said to not include any at all, since it seems kind of "win-more" to have a spell that does nothing except kill your opponent's hand after you've already got the lock down. But it does more than that; it also acts as the filtering that this deck desperately needs in order to find its wincons. Most combo decks want at least 4 tutors and 4 card draw spells to find the combo. Maralen is obviously herself a tutor, but Winds of Change is the closest we have to card draw. Other than that, I would consider Desperate Research, Spoils of the Vault, Faithless Looting, or Tainted Pact for more card draw/tutoring, because they're better than Winds at finding what you want, although they don't do anything to hurt your opponent.
If I had good old Bob, I'd probably use him, but only as a one- or two-of. Losing the Bob life plus the Maralen life every turn is a recipe for DOOM.
Finally, he're a decklist that basically encapsulates my current thinking on the matter. I like the transformative sideboard plan with Helm of Obedience+Leyline of the Void, since it only really takes up four slots (the Leylines were going to be there anyway).
Megadeth
Wincon (9)
4 Mustaine of the Mornsong
4 Stranglehold
1 Elixir of Immortality
Hand disruption (13)
3 Duress
4 InqKoz
4 HTT
2 Extirpate
Removal (10)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Dreadbore
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Acceleration (3)
3 Dark Ritual
Card Draw (3)
3 Winds of Change
Manabase (22)
2 Fetches (I just happen to have these; I know they're not on budget for most people)
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Blood Crypt
7 Swamp
2 Mountain
SB:
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Duress
1 Unmask
1 Extirpate
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Damnation
2 Chalice of the Void
If you face a lot of Affinity, I guess that two or three shatterstorms is the way to go.
I've also considered a list that's rather different from this one- it sacrifices some removal and disruption for the ability to win with wincons other than plain ol' Dave Mustaine. Here's a rough draft:
Megadeth- With "fair" options!
Wincon (9)
4 Mustaine of the Mornsong
4 Stranglehold
1 Elixir of Immortality
Hand disruption (10)
2 Duress
4 InqKoz
4 HTT
Removal (9)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Dreadbore
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Acceleration (2)
2 Dark Ritual
Card Draw (2)
2 Winds of Change
Creatures (6)
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Abyssal Persecutor
Equipment (1)
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (I just happen to have this)
Manabase (21)
2 Fetches (I just happen to have these; I know they're not on budget for most people)
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Blood Crypt
7 Swamp
1 Mountain
SB:
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Chalice of the Void
I think that the basic reason one might play this list here is that it should play better against a lot of the "fair" strategies, like Merfolk and Burn and maybe Zoo, by virtue of having more ways to interact on the board. Losing one duress, the extirpates, a Dreadbore, a dark rit, and a Winds of Change is not a big deal if you're playing against a deck that seeks to win by straightforward beatdown. Postboard, you'll still be in good shape against combo and really fast combo-esque aggro decks, like ElfBall and Goblins.
Well, those are my thoughts. I've thought a lot about this deck as you can see, and I think that if I were to play competitive Legacy, it's what I would use. It seems like it has what it takes to beat a lot of the best Legacy decks without breaking the bank. Kudos to everyone for your good ideas.
/edit/- I think that Death's Shadow might be a legit option in this deck. Given our dearth of lifegain, controllish nature, and Maralen chomping into our life total, Death's Shadow will often be frickin' huge- big enough to kill the opponent in one swing. Also, you should check out Boldwyr Heavyweights- they have no drawback with Stranglehold in play, and are pretty dang hard to deal with. Even without a Stranglehold out, it's easy to imagine a matchup where they're really good even without a Stranglehold.
If anyone uses them, and their Sneak and Show Opponent bounces their Stranglehold in response and searches for an Emrakul, please tell me, 'cause that'd be hilarious.
I also came up with a red list, which uses Ruric Thar, the Unbowed as absolutely savage hate against some control decks and also just a big dude, and Burning-Tree Shaman, who is hateful but also proactive. I also decided that Murkfiend Liege could be good for ending games fast, and it also synergizes with my countermagic. Finally, I thought that Brutalizer Exarch has natural synergy with HeSto, and can remove noncreature permanents more permanently (in some cases) than Acidic Slime. Other than that, I basically like my shell.
Also, here's a sideboard idea for the red version. The white version would probably just replace the two
3 Dryad Militant
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Cloudthresher
2 Wall of Roots
2 Brutalizer Exarch
3 Trygon Predator (mainly for dealing with Torpor Orb)
I hear some of you chuckling to yourselves. "Yeah right," you snort. "See how far you get with no Chord of Calling, no Birthing Pod, no Genesis Wave. You might as well commit hara kiri before the match, for all the chance you'll have."
Well, if you were thinking such vitriolic thoughts before, I really don't know what to say except to try this out. This is untested- I haven't yet bought the deck, but I'm open to suggestions. My basic idea with this deck is to use a Bant (mostly green) creature shell with various mana dorks, a smattering of hatebears and hatebirds like Dryad Militant and Aven Mindcensor and Scavenging Ooze to hurt some strategies, and some creature-based countermagic in Mystic Snake and Spellstutter Sprite. The beauty of Heartwood Storyteller is that every now and then, the card you draw off him when they cast a noncreature spell will give you the Mystic Snake or Spellstutter Sprite you need to counter it. Finally, completing the "I've got a green thumb, and you know where I'm gonna shove it" theme of the deck, we have a little bit of artifact and enchantment hate that doesn't suck when there are no artifacts or enchantments to kill.
So, here's my first draft. Tell me what you think! Also, please tell me how to format my decks the way other people do.
The Ramp
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Arbor Elf
2 Llanowar Elves or maybe Treefolk Harbinger
2 Sylvan Caryatid or Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Scryb Ranger
The Engine and Recursion elements
4 Heartwood Storyteller
2 Sages of the Anima (double the draws, double the fun!)
3 Eternal Witness
1 Stonecloaker
The Hate
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Militant
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Acidic Slime
1 Angel of Jubilation
The Trollfaces
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Mystic Snake (although Glen Elendra Archmage is comparable.)
2 Yeva, Nature's Herald
Manabase (20)
3 Ancient Ziggurat (how many times do you see a City of Brass with no downside? Not very often.)
1 Breeding Pool (could be more, but I'm on a budget.)
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Forest
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest (cuz I only have one)
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
2 Pendelhaven
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
If I weren't on a budget, I would probably run a couple of Vendilion Cliques for hand disruption, which the deck would certainly like, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as more-or-less strict upgrade over Yeva, Nature's Herald. I would also run a blingier mana base, and possibly Tarmogoyf as a nice, beefy beater. I do think this deck has real potential, but then again, here in the HeSto's house, we got some sweet herb.
Oh yeah, and Skullclamp is awesome with Trading Post, mainly because Skullclamp is Skullclamp. Also, Springjack Pasture lets you sacrifice the Goats for fun and profit (although the only real net outcome of using Trading Post to make a Goat and sacrificing the Goat to Springjack Pasture in the same turn is filtering one mana and tapping both of those permanents.
Oh, and while you're at it, might as well Cytoshape their dude into a 0/1 Goat, playGoatnapper to steal it, and sacrifice it to Springjack Pasture. Take that, card efficiency!
Creatures (17)
4 Agent of the Fates
2 Chameleon Colossus
1 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Scarblade Elite
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
2 Eternal Witness
Instants and Sorceries (15)
2 Beast Within (I'd probably sub out these and the Putrefy for Maelstrom Pulse and/or Abrupt Decay if I had them, but I don't.)
4 Funeral Charm (Looks weird, I know, but this is the most versatile heroic enabler I could find.)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mutagenic Growth (Once again, there as a heroic enabler. Also gets some of my guys out of lightning bolt range.)
2 Nameless Inversion
1 Putrefy
Other Stuff (3)
1 Bitterblossom (Japanese, no less!)
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I'm also thinking about another Phyrexian Arena, and maybe the Nim Deathmantle I have, but I'd try these out first. I'd also probably try out Whip of Erebos, possibly as a sideboard option against zoo and burn, since both abilities are super relevant.
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Vraska the Unseen (Yeah, I see the look in your eyes. Don't deny it- you'd tap that assassin too if you got the chance.)
Manabase (22)
3 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Treetop Village (Bonus points to anyone who can come up with a story explaining why the apes have aligned themselves with a shadowy coven of assassins.)
9 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Woodland Cemetery
When I came up with a deck, it intially had a smaller discard suite than yours (4 InqKoz, 3 Duress, 4 HTT), but since I'm not willing to buy thoughseize, I'd use four of each. Other than that, I pretty well agree about your removal choices, although I might use 2 dreadbore and 2 terminate rather than 2 dreadbore and 2 hero's downfall. Planeswalkers take long enough to get going that you can probably wait until post-maralen to search up a kill spell and take 'em out. Also, not all decks play them, and I'd rather not have an uncastable 3-mana removal spell sitting in my hand while they smash face with a tarmogoyf or whatever.
I also think that Ensnaring Bridge is a better choice than Diabolic Edict. Diabolic Edict is obviously targeted removal for fighting rean decks, but Ensnaring Bridge does it one better by stopping many creatures. Only downside is it's vulnerable to bounce and artifact removal. And how often are you going to have 7, let alone 15, cards in hand?
I think that Dark Ritual is more important than you give it credit for. I understand why you don't include it- you want to spend turns 1 and 2 destroying their hand so that you can cast your combo unhindered- but I think that any deck like this with powerful cards that can actually shut down some strategies NEEDS to be able to cast its spells a couple of turns early. Let's look at what Dark Rit can do for you:
1. Against Dredge, a turn 1 Maralen is actually game over. They can discard cards until the cows come home, and they can fetch up their Cabal Therapies to eat your hand for breakfast, but without the ability to dredge, they just look embarassing. And most lists only play Darkblast or something similar for creature removal, to kill Yixlid Jailer and other problem critters. She also prevents the ElfBall deck from going off, because she colds Glimpse of Nature. These are only specific matchups, and in reality you would want to spend turn 1 hitting them with a discard spell so you know what they're playing, but time is of the essence against such fast decks.
2. Turn 2 Stranglehold, if you're on the play, can devastate a player who uses lots of fetches (i.e., almost every "fair" strategy out there, plus maybe storm) and can also hurt a Stoneforge Mystic player. It can, again, slow down reanimator (no more Entomb for you!) and storm and elfball (no more tutors!). I think that that is a more important reason for Dark Rit than the potential of T1 Maralen, since just in general you want to play Stranglehold before you play Maralen, the reason being that if you play Maralen first, they get to search their library before you do, and could easily search for a kill spell. Then you're back to square 1.
3. If you did try to make a variant of the deck that includes something like Abyssal Persecutor as an alternative, "fair", wincon, it's good to get those out super early as well. Not to mention that you could just go gonzo and do a T1 dark rit, HTT, duress.
Weltkrieg, I was previously on board with you about Winds of Change, and I would have said to not include any at all, since it seems kind of "win-more" to have a spell that does nothing except kill your opponent's hand after you've already got the lock down. But it does more than that; it also acts as the filtering that this deck desperately needs in order to find its wincons. Most combo decks want at least 4 tutors and 4 card draw spells to find the combo. Maralen is obviously herself a tutor, but Winds of Change is the closest we have to card draw. Other than that, I would consider Desperate Research, Spoils of the Vault, Faithless Looting, or Tainted Pact for more card draw/tutoring, because they're better than Winds at finding what you want, although they don't do anything to hurt your opponent.
If I had good old Bob, I'd probably use him, but only as a one- or two-of. Losing the Bob life plus the Maralen life every turn is a recipe for DOOM.
Finally, he're a decklist that basically encapsulates my current thinking on the matter. I like the transformative sideboard plan with Helm of Obedience+Leyline of the Void, since it only really takes up four slots (the Leylines were going to be there anyway).
Wincon (9)
4 Mustaine of the Mornsong
4 Stranglehold
1 Elixir of Immortality
Hand disruption (13)
3 Duress
4 InqKoz
4 HTT
2 Extirpate
Removal (10)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Dreadbore
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Acceleration (3)
3 Dark Ritual
Card Draw (3)
3 Winds of Change
Manabase (22)
2 Fetches (I just happen to have these; I know they're not on budget for most people)
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Blood Crypt
7 Swamp
2 Mountain
SB:
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Duress
1 Unmask
1 Extirpate
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Damnation
2 Chalice of the Void
If you face a lot of Affinity, I guess that two or three shatterstorms is the way to go.
Wincon (9)
4 Mustaine of the Mornsong
4 Stranglehold
1 Elixir of Immortality
Hand disruption (10)
2 Duress
4 InqKoz
4 HTT
Removal (9)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Dreadbore
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Acceleration (2)
2 Dark Ritual
Card Draw (2)
2 Winds of Change
Creatures (6)
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Abyssal Persecutor
Equipment (1)
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (I just happen to have this)
Manabase (21)
2 Fetches (I just happen to have these; I know they're not on budget for most people)
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Dragonskull Summit
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Blood Crypt
7 Swamp
1 Mountain
SB:
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Chalice of the Void
Well, those are my thoughts. I've thought a lot about this deck as you can see, and I think that if I were to play competitive Legacy, it's what I would use. It seems like it has what it takes to beat a lot of the best Legacy decks without breaking the bank. Kudos to everyone for your good ideas.
/edit/- I think that Death's Shadow might be a legit option in this deck. Given our dearth of lifegain, controllish nature, and Maralen chomping into our life total, Death's Shadow will often be frickin' huge- big enough to kill the opponent in one swing. Also, you should check out Boldwyr Heavyweights- they have no drawback with Stranglehold in play, and are pretty dang hard to deal with. Even without a Stranglehold out, it's easy to imagine a matchup where they're really good even without a Stranglehold.
If anyone uses them, and their Sneak and Show Opponent bounces their Stranglehold in response and searches for an Emrakul, please tell me, 'cause that'd be hilarious.