gotta give it to those people who can stand the level and volume of uneducated opinions on these forums^
I personally don't know any mtg player I respect who likes this site or thinks site is helpful at all. I'm not saying all the badmouthing is necessarily justified, but it does speak volumes.
But you will take the time to hover around the site, read the threads, and respond to this one? Don't lose too much respect for yourself.
Forums are just a breeding ground for ideas. Come here, read, sort through the mush and find a gem that you like. It would be cool if pros came by because we know the idea is at least starting from solid experience, but everyone can be surprised. Hello Staff of the Death Magus.
Perhaps this is a divergence in philosophies? The way I try and play this deck is as a Rock deck first and foremost, with the Enchantress engine coming second. Perhaps some are trying to push the Enchantress to the forefront over the controlling Rock aspect? Or am I just completely off-base here?
This could actually be the case; seems like a sound assessment to me.
The problem I have with putting the enchantress theme at the forefront is that Eidolon of Blossoms is not, unfortunately, Argothian Enchantress. In the current standard Eidolon dies to nearly every removal spell available across the color pie, from Shock to Mizzium Mortars, Ultimate Price/Doom Blade to Hero's Downfall, cards like Deicide, Revoke Existence, Last Breath, Rapid Hybridization, Golgari Charm... even Naturalize. Banking my primary strategy on a creature that dies to Naturalize is a pretty tall order for me--so I agree with the idea of playing this as a Rock deck first, dealing with early threats and shredding the opponent's hand of removal, which then paves the way for us to get our somewhat fragile CA engine online.
Eidolon of Blossoms is pretty much the core of the deck and the reason you play constellation, and I think Golgari Charm has the importance it does because of the Eidolon's (and most other enchantment creatures') fragility. The deck has so many focused threats (target creature, target enchantment, destroy ALL enchantments, etc) that I'm curious how the deck would change if it became more mainstream and players began expecting the enchantment-based decks. That being, I would say we start see the sideboard changes very,very soon as I think Eidolon of Blossoms wasn't necessarily a sleeper, but players were not sure what direction a deck playing her would go.
@BFSilic:
I'll also share a quote from Sultan that convinced me to stick with straight BG non-dredge in the first place, when I was torn between BG, WG, and Junk:
Our 'win condition' isn't a single card, it's a strategy, getting in there when we can and suiting up creatures with our bestow cards to make finishers out of utility cards. Primeval Bounty can run away with a game, and Pharika can dominate as well. GB endeavors to be less weak to spot removal, and more capable of fighting back should things go sour. We're less vulnerable against enchantment removal, because our answers are permanent and we can't be randomly screwed by an end of turn deicide depriving us of the Sphere of Safety we needed to stay alive, or a Banishing Light relasing a threat we can no longer deal with. Golgari Charm must also not be underestimated, the card is way, way better than it initially seems, and gives us a way to blunt the effects of a supreme verdict.
However, if you've still got a hankering for a go-to kind of win condition, note that Primeval Bounty fits that bill quite nicely. If unanswered, it will drown your opponents very quickly, one play at a time.
I think that not having a card to point to and say "that is what wins" is the sticking point on whether to remove the dredge or not, where I can say "Strength from the Fallen wins", for example. U/W/x has Aetherling and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, MonoB has Pack Rat and Desecration Demon, MonuU has Thassa, God of the Sea, etc etc. And that may actually be one of the strengths of this deck, that the opponent has a difficult time (and so do I) of prioritizing the threats. Hero's Downfall my Vraska the Unseen? OK, here comes the bestowed Elvish Mystic. Aggro spread of creatures? Courser of Kruphix and a late game board wipe. I would not classify it as an answers deck, but the deck has solutions to many deck types and the tools to deal and turn a game around. I'm going to pick up 2 Primeval Bounty and try them out for myself. Now I'm on the mission for good looking 3/3 beast tokens...
I like the idea of enchantment-based b/w. A few of the cards have conflicting roles that may interfere with the deck's operation. I'm not sold on Underworld Coinsmith as a good card in general. If it was paired with Blind Obedience and Nyx-Fleece Ram in a deck dedicated to the slow, drain game, maybe it may shine, but eh...
Makes sense. I went through the thread and saw some comments on Bow of Nylea and I guess that leads me to the question of what the real win condition is. With the dredge aspect, a constellation trigger (bestowed Boon Satyr as the best of) with Strength from the Fallen out, sometimes including Nylea, God of the Hunt, was the big swing that would turn games around. To me, the deck was about attrition into that big hit. Are we looking at attrition into a bestowed Herald of Torment as the win? Or a Doomwake Giant with multiple triggers?
The biggest thing I want to address is the the lack of Sylvan Caryatids. Not playing the 4-of mana ramp means it is both harder to reach Extinguish All Hope at the end of the curve and also interferes with the ability to play multiple enchantments in a given turn for draw-card triggers. It also pushes our earlier game into an even weaker state. In this type of deck and without the self-mill into land/enchantments, are Caryatids close to required? And if so, what would you recommend removing?
It was a small standard group as most players went for the draft that night. I expected to see the typical control and monoB/splash green decks and didn't see either of them (not even in players I didn't get paired against). I ended going 2-1 and it was a pretty slow night as it was my first time using the deck in this setting and figuring out how to sideboard against the brews.
Match 1- R/U AggroBurn 2-1
A nivix blitz deck without the nivix, included divination, turn//burn, dissolve and young pyromancer. Two Guttersnipe and lightning strike blew me up on game one. I brought in Whip of Erebos and drew it both games. He did not have the raw or focused damage to deal with the lifelink. Game 3 was close but I cast Abrupt Decay on his second Guttersnipe and his combo could not hit me for the 10ish remaining life. Courser of Kruphix into Whip of Erebos was an all-star. The big take-away from this match was my opponent casting fuse casting turn//burn on my attack and declaring blocks, knocking out a courser and eidolon, and really emphasized the fragility of this deck.
Match 2- Selesnya 1-2
Game 1 lasted 40 minutes.... Trostani, Selesnya's Voice into an Advent of the Wurm sort of speaks for itself. We calculated it and he gained at least 40 life over the course of the game. I won when he swung with everything (6+ wurms) while I was at 15 and Golgari Charm made the damage that did get through nonlethal. Strength from the fallen and boon satyr responded with 28ish damage. For game 2 and 3, he sideboarded into a much more aggro-centric deck that I could not deal with. Multiple Courser of Kruphix kept the games going with the lifegain, but any time I created a creature that was a threat, Selesnya charm took care of it. I am looking for space for some true black removal in my deck.
Match 3- R/W burn 2-1
This match was against my girlfriend and the deck I've tested most against. Searing Blood wrecked my constellation set up game 2 and meant Nylea stayed a sitting enchantment. I brought in the 4 Brain Maggot and was able to pull out the threats from her hand. Again, Courser of Kruphix was central to the deck stabilizing.
My matches were not what I was expecting and may say a lot about how the meta is shaping up to be. Until detention sphere returns, I am thinking Abrupt decay can remain a sideboard card in place of mainboard Brain Maggot or kill spells. I want to find a replacement for Satyr Wayfinder and/or Sylvan Caryatid: the ramp is not really necessary from the caryatid and the wayfinder is a bleh draw later in the game. The interaction between Courser of Kruphix and Nyx Weaver was annoying. I found myself at least twice casting an early enchantment to trigger and draw the top card so that it wouldn't sink to the graveyard. Still, Nyx Weaver is a great card for the deck and lets you pull out something that you may need in a clutch.
Am I the only person bothered seeing Alex Bertoncini in the top 8?
Don't get me wrong, I am aware that despite cheating, he is a good player... but still sketches me out.
I don't play on the big stages, and can still get surprised with card interactions and the how/when to play burn spells. I've seen Bertoncini's cheating videos and if he sat down across from me, we would probably hit turns during game 1 because I'm triple checking everything that goes off.
So nothing crazy came out of this one and it appears so far, JOU is mainly fine-tuning decks. Brave Naya was very interesting to see. I liked seeing the red splash in w/u control decks and abrupt decay finally has the scry lands to support the colors correctly. I don't think I saw a single constellation card tonight...
Both R/W burn decks beat B/g devotion. R/W burn does have a slight edge in this matchup but that's about it. Can we consider R/W burn a top tier deck now? It's been pretty consistent over multiple opens. As good if not better performing than monster decks.
Sorry, I spoke too quickly and thought we were at top 4 going into finals. That being said, I just read a thread asking if b/w burn was dead. Quite the contrary, it seems.
Urban Evolution is one of the cards that sat in my sideboard and I've never brought in. I think it is one of the best draw/ramp engines in format and personally my five drops already include 4 Prophet of Kruphix and 4 Kalonian Hydra.
Kiora is really good for neutralizing pesky threats that are otherwise difficult to slow down/deal with; early fliers, lifebane zombies, etc. Even cards like Purphoros (haha) get shut down. She's also a fast clock, especially since we can ramp into it a turn quicker than usual.
I picked her up because on more than one occasion, I found myself ramping into Prophet of Kruphix and flashing in a Deadbridge Goliath or Polukranos, World Eater on my opponents turn, and suddenly finding my hand relatively weak and a breakable board presence (at the end of the day, Prophet of Kruphix is still a 2/3). Kiora's lockdown ability was secondary to the card draw for me, and may allow my deck to drop some of the ramp for stronger creatures. I did want to mainboard a fourth Simic Charm.
2 of my 3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave arrived in the mail today!... so, what to do with her. I layed out my deck and she immediately went into the sideboard. Ugh
But you will take the time to hover around the site, read the threads, and respond to this one? Don't lose too much respect for yourself.
Forums are just a breeding ground for ideas. Come here, read, sort through the mush and find a gem that you like. It would be cool if pros came by because we know the idea is at least starting from solid experience, but everyone can be surprised. Hello Staff of the Death Magus.
Eidolon of Blossoms is pretty much the core of the deck and the reason you play constellation, and I think Golgari Charm has the importance it does because of the Eidolon's (and most other enchantment creatures') fragility. The deck has so many focused threats (target creature, target enchantment, destroy ALL enchantments, etc) that I'm curious how the deck would change if it became more mainstream and players began expecting the enchantment-based decks. That being, I would say we start see the sideboard changes very,very soon as I think Eidolon of Blossoms wasn't necessarily a sleeper, but players were not sure what direction a deck playing her would go.
I think that not having a card to point to and say "that is what wins" is the sticking point on whether to remove the dredge or not, where I can say "Strength from the Fallen wins", for example. U/W/x has Aetherling and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, MonoB has Pack Rat and Desecration Demon, MonuU has Thassa, God of the Sea, etc etc. And that may actually be one of the strengths of this deck, that the opponent has a difficult time (and so do I) of prioritizing the threats. Hero's Downfall my Vraska the Unseen? OK, here comes the bestowed Elvish Mystic. Aggro spread of creatures? Courser of Kruphix and a late game board wipe. I would not classify it as an answers deck, but the deck has solutions to many deck types and the tools to deal and turn a game around. I'm going to pick up 2 Primeval Bounty and try them out for myself. Now I'm on the mission for good looking 3/3 beast tokens...
Gnarled Scarhide and Master of the Feast are more for aggro decks. If you go the aggro route (and even if you don't!), a 4th Ethereal Armor would be awesome. The card is very solid right now. You can look around for red/white aggro decks that use Hero of Iroas and Madcap Skills devastatingly.
2 Herald of Torment
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
3 Boon Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price *
2 Doom Blade *
3 Golgari Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Extinguish All Hope
*Or some other combination
Sideboard:
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Doomwake Giant (Easily replaceable I believe)
The biggest thing I want to address is the the lack of Sylvan Caryatids. Not playing the 4-of mana ramp means it is both harder to reach Extinguish All Hope at the end of the curve and also interferes with the ability to play multiple enchantments in a given turn for draw-card triggers. It also pushes our earlier game into an even weaker state. In this type of deck and without the self-mill into land/enchantments, are Caryatids close to required? And if so, what would you recommend removing?
I piloted this last night.
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
2 Nyx Weaver
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Kruphix's Insight
3 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady
4 Swamp
10 Forest
Side Board
4 Brain Maggot
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Nyx Weaver
2 Doomwake Giant
4 Mistcutter Hydra
It was a small standard group as most players went for the draft that night. I expected to see the typical control and monoB/splash green decks and didn't see either of them (not even in players I didn't get paired against). I ended going 2-1 and it was a pretty slow night as it was my first time using the deck in this setting and figuring out how to sideboard against the brews.
Match 1- R/U AggroBurn 2-1
A nivix blitz deck without the nivix, included divination, turn//burn, dissolve and young pyromancer. Two Guttersnipe and lightning strike blew me up on game one. I brought in Whip of Erebos and drew it both games. He did not have the raw or focused damage to deal with the lifelink. Game 3 was close but I cast Abrupt Decay on his second Guttersnipe and his combo could not hit me for the 10ish remaining life. Courser of Kruphix into Whip of Erebos was an all-star. The big take-away from this match was my opponent casting fuse casting turn//burn on my attack and declaring blocks, knocking out a courser and eidolon, and really emphasized the fragility of this deck.
Match 2- Selesnya 1-2
Game 1 lasted 40 minutes.... Trostani, Selesnya's Voice into an Advent of the Wurm sort of speaks for itself. We calculated it and he gained at least 40 life over the course of the game. I won when he swung with everything (6+ wurms) while I was at 15 and Golgari Charm made the damage that did get through nonlethal. Strength from the fallen and boon satyr responded with 28ish damage. For game 2 and 3, he sideboarded into a much more aggro-centric deck that I could not deal with. Multiple Courser of Kruphix kept the games going with the lifegain, but any time I created a creature that was a threat, Selesnya charm took care of it. I am looking for space for some true black removal in my deck.
Match 3- R/W burn 2-1
This match was against my girlfriend and the deck I've tested most against. Searing Blood wrecked my constellation set up game 2 and meant Nylea stayed a sitting enchantment. I brought in the 4 Brain Maggot and was able to pull out the threats from her hand. Again, Courser of Kruphix was central to the deck stabilizing.
My matches were not what I was expecting and may say a lot about how the meta is shaping up to be. Until detention sphere returns, I am thinking Abrupt decay can remain a sideboard card in place of mainboard Brain Maggot or kill spells. I want to find a replacement for Satyr Wayfinder and/or Sylvan Caryatid: the ramp is not really necessary from the caryatid and the wayfinder is a bleh draw later in the game. The interaction between Courser of Kruphix and Nyx Weaver was annoying. I found myself at least twice casting an early enchantment to trigger and draw the top card so that it wouldn't sink to the graveyard. Still, Nyx Weaver is a great card for the deck and lets you pull out something that you may need in a clutch.
Probable mainboard changes:
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Sylvan Caryatid
+3 Brain Maggot
+2 Doomblade
I don't play on the big stages, and can still get surprised with card interactions and the how/when to play burn spells. I've seen Bertoncini's cheating videos and if he sat down across from me, we would probably hit turns during game 1 because I'm triple checking everything that goes off.
Sorry, I spoke too quickly and thought we were at top 4 going into finals. That being said, I just read a thread asking if b/w burn was dead. Quite the contrary, it seems.
G/u constellation. O boy.
I picked her up because on more than one occasion, I found myself ramping into Prophet of Kruphix and flashing in a Deadbridge Goliath or Polukranos, World Eater on my opponents turn, and suddenly finding my hand relatively weak and a breakable board presence (at the end of the day, Prophet of Kruphix is still a 2/3). Kiora's lockdown ability was secondary to the card draw for me, and may allow my deck to drop some of the ramp for stronger creatures. I did want to mainboard a fourth Simic Charm.
Sorry, I may just be thinking out loud now.